Fed Issue #30 - Another broken promise: Tax cuts for the middle class

[fishermccann]

Agreed there is a difference between wisdom and knowledge. Wisdom comes from experience and you can't teach that in school. They are not mutually exclusive.

[JBen]

And yet G, you yourself won't go into a bank and get life/financial/tax advice..refuse to use those pimply faced highly educated peons who gross 40, 45, maybe 50k.....

Out of curiosity. Up to you if you answer or not.
1) How much do you pay your accountant. I pay mine $400 to make sure CRA never comes after me.
2) Are you aware ( Im sure you are) thats a credit on your return.

Now imagine you, your life. Don't forget I've been to your former employer, we both know what often happens to um, a good chunk of people who don't have enough.........

Forget all the advantages your pension grant you simply for showing up to work each day. Think about your life ( try to factor in things like inflation and other things like um, gee I don't know)
a) hows much fees for your plate renewals have gone up ( if not aware they've doubled in 5 years)
b) Hundreds of thousands of just ordinary people like yourself that yes, are having to choose between Hydro and food.

Do you think they have $400 each year to ensure they squeeze every last penny they can back....like you do.

Have $2,000 for someone like me to do a very basic rudimentary budget and short term ( 5 years) financial plan? Maybe they are your sons, or kind of like your sons. Things are tough but they are managing/getting by...your investment "advice" comes free. Very smart, very capable people take care of your pension for you...paid for by....


And they want children in the few years
would like to somehow find the 80,000 or so they need for a down payment on a war time bungalow..Nothing grand, just a place to hang their hat.
Oh, and because they want children
They want wills and to think about different kinds of Insurance and estate planning.

And have we talked about RSPs/TSFAs yet and the kinds of things people who maybe they to are feeling the pinch these days, and maybe they aren't in the sunshine/sunny days......

Not so strange after all, that yes people who are, I don't know what label to attach to them..."Well off", better off get alls kinds of um, help.
Those just a little further behind, facing further and further into debt, finding it harder and harder to find a few grand each year......

Me, i got no issues with trying to help people, we are taxed to the teeth. Somehow its always the working class that pays the prices, and is forgotten about.........

And yeah, we are seeing the signs of revolt...

And one last question.
You managed a pretty good life. Certainly not rich but a good solid life.
Did you spend 4 years in University? Maybe 40grand?
Do your former employers really only hire pedigreed people now?

[fishermccann]

JB without particulars I pay about that amount for my accountant services. About my former employer, I will tell you the amount of money you have does not determine if you end up there, but the amount of care needed. We had people with millions in the same room with those who only have OAP. Lets say it cost 2500.00 a month for a semi-private room. If your OA pension does not cover that amount ( it doesn't), and you have no assets the provincial government makes up the difference. If you try to take advantage of that and give away all your money to friends or family before you enter , that will not work because the gov. can go back three years to see who has that money, and can make them pay the difference the OAP does not cover. If you have no money of your own the gov. will also give you 140.00 a month to cover incidentals. Yes in Ontario the rich and poor get the same care, if you need it when you become infirm. Now the really really rich can drop 200 thousand a year for private nursing around the clock but we never saw that 1% in a home. Many famous and wealthy people ( the stories I could tell), spend their last days in government run long term care, because that the the best place for the care they need. No uni. for me, 3 colleges though. Yes you have a better chance of landing a job with a few letters behind your name.

[skypilot]

Agreed there is a difference between wisdom and knowledge. Wisdom comes from experience and you can't teach that in school. They are not mutually exclusive.

Bottom line is that people assume attending/graduating College or University creates wisdom, knowledge and thinking. The fundamental flaw in that assumption is that not only can't graduates think, they haven't a clue what thinking is and confuse it with feeling. Look at the abortion of Prov. green energy and carbon tax, no real intelligent thought, just feeling and emotion. Now the chosen few make money while companies leave over costs and residents suffer.

Just heard Mattis announce that all Nato members have until the end of the year to meet the 2% GDP minimum that has been the norm since inception.

[JBen]

You know, I knew the answers to those questions before I asked them. That's one thing I do, after all these years Im still not sure if it's a good personality trait or not. I ask questions. Often not "seeking answers". I wasn't really referring to any distinctions between those who end up there. But was referring to those who end up there without the money or assets/net worth...

$2,500 a month for a semi private room...remind us all about those under your care that spit in peoples faces, rant like mad lunatics and more.......I won't bother with inflation, Present Values, rates of return etc. Just basic simple
$2,500 X 12 X 25.........Would you wish that life on anyone?
And thats just a semi private room....
How much does it cost for um say, something a little upscale?
Would $4,000 a month sound about right?

And if you had to pull a number out of your hat, what do you think it cost the province...aka us... to care for those people who don't have 12 x $2,500 X 25......Maybe the father of those kids I know whose dad had an aneurysm and no disability Insurance..years ago he have simply remained dead.....good thing he atlas had the foresight to talk to someone about power of attorney and more ( like DNRs) .and nowhere near enough banked. He would be one of those working class stiffs.....

I can guarantee he never had the $ to well numerous things........................
re quotes that paragraph from the globe article about the "middle class" what's occurring, has been occurring for a long time.
and we can include as they are related "branches" off the same trunk, the parts delving into University degrees, a number of different industries, etc.

Cant wait for this years budgets, both provincial and federal.
Im sure Ms Wynne will try to wax eloquent about a number of things. Some things on the surface I might even agree with in some parts. Say for example 20% rebates for rural ontarians but no-one else, bout "damn time". Yes we all know it just means she will raise taxes elsewhere........Heck I even think its way past time she ( we) subsidize the cost of trying to get Nat Gas to more people. Shame she's only throwing 100,000 million at that, and best case scenario though Im no expert, it might be 10-20 years before those help arrives...........

But wow, we have the money to subsidize electric cars...what do they go for? $70,000 a piece by $15,000 each..
and um does anyone here think its the working class that will take advantage of that?

[skypilot]

Regardless, if the ridiculous trudeau immigration/refugee policy isn't stopped there will be a very large under class that will include what was previously and once known as the Canadian middle class.

[JBen]

"Agreed R"

As I said, way back. I agree with "some" (aka it would be great to up the max TFSAs) but really it helps the wrong target as usual. Reducing the marginal rate to 20.5 does help the right target more. (Aka those that gross 45,000-75,00). Without splitting hairs "6 of one, half dozen of another" but one helps those who are really struggling a little bit more.

By no means does that mean I agree with everything, or as I said in the "whole" I don't totally agree with "mosquito"...

really, it comes down to "priorities". Just as the working stiffs have to prioritize what's more important to them. Put 5,000 aside for a TFSA/RSP, OR put that very hard to squirrel 5,000 if they can actually save that much, against their mortgage/Credit Line, OR simply bank it for a rainy day, say incase their 10 years old car dies.

as an aside the rule of thumb is everyone should have 3 months salary set aside for "rainy days"...
lol, that's not easy for people who gross far more than 50k............

we can only discuss the options, in the end they have to decide what's more important.

Kind of like our governments. Except their decisions are rarely about "what's more important" but rather "what will gain them some votes".....
And that goes for all.

so much has been written about the middle class, Boomers, record debt levels, more, jobs various industries.......The cost of post, and worthless pieces of paper...........

I guess giving ABC a cup of coffee ( like 15 grand for a toy car, or couples that gross north of 150k- 200k income splitting) is more important than the millions of hard working people and the elephant in the room, and or something better to look forward to than a semi-private room at Gs old place. And if people want to say " well then the working stiffs should be a little better with their money"....Um, shouldn't a couple that gross 125k..............Or I could name so much...Like people that gross 100k, and have DBPs.......

Trudea and Wynne want to enhance CPP because the vast majority don't have pensions, and aren't taken care of the way we take care of so many others. Ok great. A lot of people are going to need it.

2500 x 12 x 25

but maybe if they all examined why people can't save first..............

Priorites
and as the U.S. Rust belt/mid west clearly demonstrates. Well those working stiffs just aren't.......

[JBen]

Cant help myself.

In everyones favourite sensationalist rag today. Yes its a re-hash of the same report, just reworded (written for their readers....most media write for those with grade 10 English) and do note, they to are amongst the "institutions" few trust anymore.

Does anyone see the SUN, who by far is the most biased out there ( though every now and they unlike most others they call spades spades), saying the common man is sick of "Liberals", or that Harper and Cons aren't included? So just as we might ask who "are the middle class" these days, who are the "privaleged"

Well it's not hard to see who is low on the priority list and who usually always gets attention. Its not hard to see who is the upper 20% ( the haves) and whose seriously struggling..... Its kind of like or similar to every saying how important the planet is and we need to do more...Yet when it comes to decide where to direct ever dwindling money, funny, the MNRF/MoE are at the bottom of the food chain.

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/02/15...canadas-elites

[mosquito]

Boy ..... I have no idea where to start or not with where this thread has gone .....

I guess I will wander into the education part, many would be much farther ahead if they just read "The Wealthy Barber" (there is a new updated version out I saw awhile ago).

Cant help myself.

In everyones favourite sensationalist rag today. Yes its a re-hash of the same report, just reworded (written for their readers....most media write for those with grade 10 English) and do note, they to are amongst the "institutions" few trust anymore.

Does anyone see the SUN, who by far is the most biased out there ( though every now and they unlike most others they call spades spades), saying the common man is sick of "Liberals", or that Harper and Cons aren't included? So just as we might ask who "are the middle class" these days, who are the "privaleged"

Well it's not hard to see who is low on the priority list and who usually always gets attention. Its not hard to see who is the upper 20% ( the haves) and whose seriously struggling..... Its kind of like or similar to every saying how important the planet is and we need to do more...Yet when it comes to decide where to direct ever dwindling money, funny, the MNRF/MoE are at the bottom of the food chain.

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/02/15...canadas-elites

TFSA is not well used.
http://www.moneysense.ca/save/invest...st-not-wisely/
http://www.rbcroyalbank.com/tfsa/tfsa-waystouse.html

The political elites are the biggest consumers of their own kool-aid (I glanced back and may owe JBen a bit of an apology, trying to do too many things at one time and not reading careful enough.... or after reading I may choose to argue more on some of the needles in the haystack ) when it comes to their policies and they deliberately are trying to create divisiveness for their own gain. Middle Income vs Upper vs Low income, East Vs West, French vs English ...... all while dumping perhaps 100,000 (the increase not the usual amount) under educated new immigrants/refugees into the overloaded system and into Canada's economy and many onto the welfare roles.

Ex. Quebec own's Canada and are best politicians (Empirically false B.S. from Justin Truedope! Quebec is equalization charity case each and every year)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oA1yCIHMJwY

MNR doesn't even rank up there high enough to keep the minimum they are entitled to. (Missing $70,000,000)
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...lers-disappear


The budget is just one of many nightmares I see rolling in soon from the Liberals.

My $.05 ..... I have to get back to T4's (already did mine, yuck, 1/2 of what it was 4 years ago, I'm back in the Middle again) and financial projections .... (I hate this time of year) .... time to put Thousand Foot Crutch on and focus ....

[JBen]

Bah.
After 30 years on Bay Street, you don't survive there if you don't have thick skin. Doesn't mean I won't "bite back".

Wealthy Barber. yep a good read.
So is.
https://www.amazon.ca/When-Genius-Fa.../dp/0375758259

Mosquito.
One of the reasons I keep asking the question "who is the middle class". While I believe we can certainly quantify it these days, because there is absolutely no arguing that segment is both shrinking and taking it on the chin, isn't it in essence more of subjective thing, that describes a large segment of society and what they aspire to?........In a couple of the links I provided, it goes into that. An astonishing number of American Millionaires define themselves as "middle class"...Or as the poet Whitman quoted............


"Statistically" the most common measure is the statistical mean. Averages distort numbers, and "net worth" is very misleading.
My income isn't even close to half of what it was 8 years ago, let alone 2 years ago. Ask me if I care. Im out of the insanity and bs which includes the rat race and trappings of modern day life.

What follows is far more subjective, "arguable", and I hope some latitude is given where something might not be phrased oh so perfectly.

I would, yes I certainly would say that amongst other things we have "killed the American Dream". The aspirations of the middle class who typically don't give 2 shytes about big monster homes in the burbs, corporate ladders, and prefer a "simpler life". Don't want to feel as though they have to have 3 letters behind their names to have good, solid, lives...........Dont care if when they retire (if its actually within reach for many these days ) if they are travelling the world, they just hope they don't end up in a semi private room in a home.....and more I might add/say

Really, not unlike the peons from a couple hundred years ago, in Maries day when the ruling class.......