some people need to read regulations

[JBen]

Bingo GW11.
what we think/feel about the grey, ambiguous areas. We aren't the "judge". At that point, the CO is. What he thinks our "intent" was/is, what he thinks about our attitudes/sincerity etc.....And if it goes further, than a JP is the judge. It's the way it should be.

Dyth, if the link doesn't work, question #186

Lol, sometimes I have too much time on my hands. Haha.

http://www.outdoorontario.net/AskMNR/mnrfaqgame.html

[Dythbringer]

Bingo GW11.
what we think/feel about the grey, ambiguous areas. We aren't the "judge". At that point, the CO is. What he thinks our "intent" was/is, what he thinks about our attitudes/sincerity etc.....And if it goes further, than a JP is the judge. It's the way it should be.

Dyth, if the link doesn't work, question #186

Lol, sometimes I have too much time on my hands. Haha.

http://www.outdoorontario.net/AskMNR/mnrfaqgame.html

The answer is what I was referring to. Recovering an animal isn't the same as hunting. You can recover an animal after legal shooting time as long as your firearms are encased (or even as the CO suggests locked in your vehicle). I don't believe it is a leap of logic for it to apply in same way in the situation you are talking about. Your shot(s) occurred in the legal season, the animal will either succumb to it's wound or survive. If it succumbs, you have to go get it.

I have a story of my first bowhunting season. I lost a deer. Last day of the season, shot was in legal shooting time in the later hour of the afternoon (not quite dark but close to legal, what I refer to as the magic hour). I made a shot which I believe hit a branch and deflected the arrow into a non vital area (not even the gut). Deer took off and actually ran by my buddy who was hunting a fair bit away. I had blood at the sign, not a lot but I knew that I had hit the deer. Radioed my buddy and told him about the deer and he said he saw a deer run by him. So we started to track. 30 mins past sunset we encased our bows (we both had soft cases) and continued. Tiny blood trail and we tracked for 250 yards. Now it is 2-2 1/2 hours after legal shooting time because the blood trail was so poor although we did manage to find one bed. My buddy suggests that we back out, let the deer lay down and come back tomorrow because we were starting to get close to the landowner's property line. We backed out and came back the next morning. No bows (after legal season for deer although coyote was open) because if we had come across a CO we didn't want to have to explain why we had our bows out looking for a deer out of season. I was gutted all night, I couldn't sleep. We got back to our spot we stopped the night before and started looking again. Found the blood trail (again very little) and followed it to where the deer bedded down. We started to approach to have the deer get up and trot away (I think a trot was all it could manage). Not a lot of blood in the bed. We lost the trail about 50 yards later and started to search and looked for two days. Now I believe I followed the FWCA and the hunting regulations. Could a CO charge me, and if so, what could he charge me with?

I would imagine all of us have a story like that under our belts. It still bothers me today. I won't give up on a deer which is shot. Not that any of us would. However, there are times when a deer is badly hit that an "immediate" recovery is impractical or possibly even dangerous (you mentioned the deer in the raging river a few posts back). I do not support guys not recovering deer because it is too dark or the deer went too far but recovering deer sometime is more complicated that simply going over to a dead animal and the law has to recognize that.

Dyth

[JBen]

If I shoot a deer 5 or 10 minutes before the legal half hour after sunset. I usually wait a half hour to allow the animal to lye down and die (to cut down any chance of pushing the deer). It is my understanding that by the definition of hunting, I would not be allowed to pursue, follow after, search for etc. that evening because one can not hunt between a half hour after sunset and a half hour before sunrise. My question is what happens if this was Saturday afternoon the last day of the season. Now I have a problem. I can not track the deer that afternoon or on Sunday. Would you comment on this situation please?

In the scenario which you have suggested, it would be an offence to continue to hunt beyond the close of the season.

If the animal was wounded and not killed, then chances are that it would eventually die and be eaten by scavengers. You could not continue to hunt and kill this animal unless you had contacted an officer who authorized you to do so.

Curious, but no need to answer this. Its just a question that's being "voiced".

How often, while your sitting in your stand are you 100% sure, it was a good, clean, lethal shot.
Only time I have been is.
When it piles up in sight.
When its a bear and I hear the death moan.

Lol, hunting shotgun this past season, I hear my friends shots about 10 minutes before last legal. Figured I may as well start packing up, get my crap in the truck, he will meet me there and by the time we are done doing that, we can start tracking in the dark. Thats exactly how it played out. We headed out in the dark, all he could think about was

Was it a good shot? John Im sure it was, it can't be far. Thats all he talked about really...from the moment he met at the truck and while we looked and we looked and we looked. The more we looked the more doubt started creeping into him. We called it off and decided to come back at first light. We cut a trail through the bush as the crow flies to the trucks.

And tripped over the buck.
His relief was both audible and palpable and yep sure enough. One in the basket and one took out its neck.

But that wasn't the last day of the season.

Earlier I mentioned a bear track that was put off to the morning.
When we first checked around the station, the amount of blood was...tons...Great big pools and smears where it crawled over a down tree. We were all a little surprised we couldn't find it within 40 yards.....The guy that shot it swore up and down it was a good shot. Only 15 yards away, why wouldn't we think so to.

We started at 7am, by 9:30am and 2 miles into the bush we knew.
By 11:00 am, and about 3 miles into the bush the blood trail was just drips and drops, and then..................................

[JBen]

Thought I would add.
Do I agree with it?
Nope, this is one of those grey areas.

Can it happen?
Absolutely, to everyone.

On one hand Im sure all of us think. No way, Im not going to give up.............
But also I wanted to "point out" What if its not you? Its your friend that pulled the trigger 20 minutes before last legal, one of the party hunters........He swears up and down it was a good shot...Why wouldn't you believe him?
My friends buck. Despite one in the basket and one in the neck, we did not find one drop of blood. Not where it was standing when he shot it, not in the direction it took off, and not when we were scouring the ground. Then lol, we decide to come back at first light......and trip over the damn thing.

As the crow flies.
It was about 100-150 yards from where he shot it.

Me, I no longer hunt the evening hunt on the last day. Im done before hand. And this year was no exception. Dec 15 the migration was on, lots of deer moving in the morning finally after 3 days of blizzard stopped it cold....I was packing up by 2:30pm

[Gilroy]

The answer is what I was referring to. Recovering an animal isn't the same as hunting. You can recover an animal after legal shooting time as long as your firearms are encased (or even as the CO suggests locked in your vehicle). I don't believe it is a leap of logic for it to apply in same way in the situation you are talking about. Your shot(s) occurred in the legal season, the animal will either succumb to it's wound or survive. If it succumbs, you have to go get it.

I have a story of my first bowhunting season. I lost a deer. Last day of the season, shot was in legal shooting time in the later hour of the afternoon (not quite dark but close to legal, what I refer to as the magic hour). I made a shot which I believe hit a branch and deflected the arrow into a non vital area (not even the gut). Deer took off and actually ran by my buddy who was hunting a fair bit away. I had blood at the sign, not a lot but I knew that I had hit the deer. Radioed my buddy and told him about the deer and he said he saw a deer run by him. So we started to track. 30 mins past sunset we encased our bows (we both had soft cases) and continued. Tiny blood trail and we tracked for 250 yards. Now it is 2-2 1/2 hours after legal shooting time because the blood trail was so poor although we did manage to find one bed. My buddy suggests that we back out, let the deer lay down and come back tomorrow because we were starting to get close to the landowner's property line. We backed out and came back the next morning. No bows (after legal season for deer although coyote was open) because if we had come across a CO we didn't want to have to explain why we had our bows out looking for a deer out of season. I was gutted all night, I couldn't sleep. We got back to our spot we stopped the night before and started looking again. Found the blood trail (again very little) and followed it to where the deer bedded down. We started to approach to have the deer get up and trot away (I think a trot was all it could manage). Not a lot of blood in the bed. We lost the trail about 50 yards later and started to search and looked for two days. Now I believe I followed the FWCA and the hunting regulations. Could a CO charge me, and if so, what could he charge me with?

I would imagine all of us have a story like that under our belts. It still bothers me today. I won't give up on a deer which is shot. Not that any of us would. However, there are times when a deer is badly hit that an "immediate" recovery is impractical or possibly even dangerous (you mentioned the deer in the raging river a few posts back). I do not support guys not recovering deer because it is too dark or the deer went too far but recovering deer sometime is more complicated that simply going over to a dead animal and the law has to recognize that.

Dyth

From previous discussions on here over the years once legal light is gone you are not supposed to follow up on that deer legally because you are still hunting after sunset, recovery or no recovery.The best course of action is to try and let the local CO know what you are doing and get some permission.I have no idea what would happen to you if a CO gets a complaint about guys walking in a bush with flashlights after dark and its you and buddy looking for a wounded deer.
Hence the previous suggestions to call a CO ahead of your search,now getting a hold of one might prove tricky.

[Gilroy]

There's a lot of hair-splitting and speculation going on in this thread but the only correct answer has been said a few times. Discretion of the officer.

It doesn't matter if the charge seems "unreasonable". It doesn't matter if the same circumstance has been given a "pass" somewhere else at another time. One CO might charge you for something where another guy doing the same thing would not be charged when checked by a different CO. You're just spinning your wheels trying to come up with a concrete definition of "immediately" when it comes to tagging an animal while party hunting. The OP has emailed a CO for his interpretation, but what he will receive is only that officer's interpretation. They won't necessarily all enforce things the same way.

In my opinion, "immediately" just leaves a wide open door for a CO to deal with each situation as he sees fit. If he suspects that a group is trying to get away with something or if they're being uncooperative in their explanation of why they didn't immediately tag an animal, they'll likely be charged. If another group somewhere else is in a similar situation, yet their explanation makes sense and everything appears to be on the up and up, it would likely be overlooked. Or maybe the CO is in a bad mood that day and he charges them anyway.

I have party hunted for deer for over 25 years and have probably been in dozens of situations where a CO could lay a charge based on the definition of "immediately" if he wanted to. You can't always follow the law exactly as it's written. When it comes to party hunting and "immediately", think about how a CO will see it, or even how it could possibly look, because most of the time you won't be within the definition of "immediately".

The only way "immediate" could be tested is in a court of law in relation to group hunting and its a shame that one hunter might not have to go thought that process because his story is better than another hunter.Where so much lee way is given to the interpretation of the wording I think that,s a problem.
Also remember where you have a group of hunters trying to explain their story miscommunication is very easy.Totally different from a solo hunter with his tag and its immediate use on a downed animal.
If nothing else this discussion highlights how the regulations can be tricky and you really have to study them in some detail.
The wording for encased (firearm/bow) after legal shooting time seems pretty simple until you read the definition of encased, a simple thing like not pulling that draw string on a gun sock or not having a draw string could get you charged.BTW This is one of the more common charges laid every year.

[JBen]

And so ultimately, it comes down to the COs interpretation, their discretion.
Say the wrong thing, do the wrong thing, or if he is bad mood or lets be honest. We all meet people who for whatever reason just rub us wrong, even though they might be good people, and no real logical reason for that immediate wrong foot.....Maybe it's just the tone of your voice in person or over the phone....

Me.
No way I really want to track anything, bump it or find it down but still breathing and not have the tool to do it a favour.

Or as mentioned. Your friends shoots one, he swears up and down its a good shot. My friends buck, he was convinced "good clean shot"....No blood at the site...not a big deal it happens....Off we go in the direction....no blood, not one drop...I was beginning to think ( Um.......). Turns out it was a good shot, but if we hadn't tripped over it on our way back....

5 of you go out looking that night or the next morning. Then a CO sees you coming out of the bush. Your all smiles, pleasant "hows your day officer"

better than yours

[Dythbringer]

From previous discussions on here over the years once legal light is gone you are not supposed to follow up on that deer legally because you are still hunting after sunset, recovery or no recovery.The best course of action is to try and let the local CO know what you are doing and get some permission.I have no idea what would happen to you if a CO gets a complaint about guys walking in a bush with flashlights after dark and its you and buddy looking for a wounded deer.
Hence the previous suggestions to call a CO ahead of your search,now getting a hold of one might prove tricky.

Definiton of hunting per the FWCA:

“hunting” includes,
(a) lying in wait for, searching for, being on the trail of, pursuing, chasing or shooting at wildlife, whether or not the wildlife is killed, injured, captured or harassed, or
(b) capturing or harassing wildlife,
except that “hunting” does not include,
(c) trapping, or
(d) lying in wait for, searching for, being on the trail of or pursuing wildlife for a purpose other than attempting to kill, injure, capture or harass it, unless the wildlife is killed, injured, captured or harassed as a result,

So the definition of hunting doesn't include any action for a purpose other than attempting to kill, injure, capture or harass it, unless the wildlife is harmed as a result. So if the animal is dead, how can you kill, injure, capture or harass it? Therefore, recovery of a dead animal after legal shooting hours is permissible because definition of the term does not apply.

Besides JBen's link from a few posts ago actually has an answer from a CO with a scenario about recovering an animal after dark.

[GW11]

When it comes to recovering a deer after dark my guess is that it would all come down to the wording you decide to use if questioned. "Looking for my deer" would leave more room for interpretation than "recovering the deer I shot earlier".

The blurry area is not knowing whether or not the deer is dead, but if you made what you believe to have been a good shot, you have every reason to believe the deer is dead. The minute your "recovery" is in question, like finding a bed with blood in it but no deer, back out and resume your "recovery" at a later time.

[Gilroy]

Definiton of hunting per the FWCA:

“hunting” includes,
(a) lying in wait for, searching for, being on the trail of, pursuing, chasing or shooting at wildlife, whether or not the wildlife is killed, injured, captured or harassed, or
(b) capturing or harassing wildlife,
except that “hunting” does not include,
(c) trapping, or
(d) lying in wait for, searching for, being on the trail of or pursuing wildlife for a purpose other than attempting to kill, injure, capture or harass it, unless the wildlife is killed, injured, captured or harassed as a result,

So the definition of hunting doesn't include any action for a purpose other than attempting to kill, injure, capture or harass it, unless the wildlife is harmed as a result. So if the animal is dead, how can you kill, injure, capture or harass it? Therefore, recovery of a dead animal after legal shooting hours is permissible because definition of the term does not apply.

Besides JBen's link from a few posts ago actually has an answer from a CO with a scenario about recovering an animal after dark.

I was alluding to this when I wrote it and did had not even read the CO question and answer. So recovery is allowed "IF" you are sure you have made a clean shot but how many people are sure of that? Which brought up my point about contacting the MNR prior to a search.Its mentioned right in the answer.


"If the animal was wounded and not killed, then chances are that it would eventually die and be eaten by scavengers. You could not continue to hunt and kill this animal unless you had contacted an officer who authorized you to do so.
Clearly, then, you should be very aware of the consequences of making a poor shot at an animal at the end of a day or season. Chances are that animal’s life will be wasted and that is not what good hunting ethics are all about."

So in your case you and I quote "I have a story of my first bowhunting season. I lost a deer. Last day of the season, shot was in legal shooting time in the later hour of the afternoon (not quite dark but close to legal, what I refer to as the magic hour). I made a shot which I believe hit a branch and deflected the arrow into a non vital area (not even the gut). Deer took off and actually ran by my buddy who was hunting a fair bit away. I had blood at the sign, not a lot but I knew that I had hit the deer. Radioed my buddy and told him about the deer and he said he saw a deer run by him. So we started to track. 30 mins past sunset we encased our bows (we both had soft cases) and continued. Tiny blood trail and we tracked for 250 yards. Now it is 2-2 1/2 hours after legal shooting time because the blood trail was so poor although we did manage to find one bed. My buddy suggests that we back out, let the deer lay down and come back tomorrow because we were starting to get close to the landowner's property line.

I would definitely have contacted the MNR for permission as you did NOT MAKE A CLEAN KILLING SHOT by your own words and there is NO WAY your not still
legally hunting after dark in fact your 2 1/2 hours after dark.I think you need to re read the MNR CO question and answer.