MNRF cuts.

[fishermccann]

FisherMc. -just read over again my post,i did not say the education is a widget-nor implied.
Used the saying since it has a very powerful and fitting meaning to this (by the way totally sidetracked)topic.

GBK , just read over again my post, and I did not say anywhere, that you said, or implied education was a widget. LOL.

[gbk]

If we can't discuss massive MNRF cuts on this site, where can-should we? Perhaps on the lawn in front of Queens Park?

Hi Kickingfrog and FisheMc-You are both right,if we look at wider picture.The MNRF are PS,and we discussed cost and PS here .
Yet, it seems we concentrated though a lot on education part of PS-that is what i mean by sidetracked.

[LoR]

G “no offense” but being a public servant and your spouse a teacher, while it doesn’t discredit your thoughts, it does make them biased and subject to huge doses of salt.

No body has said or implied that teachers aren’t important. They simply aren’t as self “important” ( note quotes) as you and your unions think.

There’s more to the province than some self proclaimed all important. Servants.

And one only has to look around to see the oh so many things.

We can start with why Drummond had to be called in.

We can look at numerous reports that have measured growth vs growth elsewhere. Or simply the well established and unarguable erosion of the MC.....

We can look at the state of the lower middle class. And who have helped make your life so comfortable.

What you are so obviously blind to is that it’s “relative”...

Are “teachers” in Mexico or Uruguay paid north of 100k??

Why not.

You like to portray yourself as something of a socialist. Yet without fail, never actually think about the largest segment of society. And those who you can’t argue are in trouble.

A “widget” or house, or car, or diamond is only worth.....what the buyer, or market can afford.

[LoR]

With respect to the MNRF. It’s already been mentioned.

One reason, certainly not the only reason they are other areas are bearing the brunt is

They are low hanging fruit and easy targets. Unlike other ministries..........

Gee, and here I thought the left and social warriors thought the environment was the most important thing these days.

[DanO]

It is incorrect to say "if they are being treated fairly ... employer can avoid unions"
Unions need a reason to justify themselves. No matter how good the conditions are, every so many years, they need to cause a ruckus ...
Do you know how many good employers have been painted bad by the unions ...

If all employers treated employees well, do we need unions anymore? (you might think that's not the case, but entertain me here). If that could happen, what do
you think the union bosses would do ... just go on retirement and dissolve the union ... give up his/her very case for existence in the work force? Human greed and power ... it's a really corrupt thing.

We think in ideologies ... it doesn't exist with humans ... that's why making a case based on ethics is in fact a fallacy.

Totally agree! I've seen the behind closed doors of a working union. Not any prettier than behind the closed doors of management.

[DanO]

You mean like the rest of the world?

Even municipal workers don't get "lifetime" benefits. They can opt to buy into them after retirement....

Ontario Hydro and OPP have benefits provided after retirement I think. I could stand to be corrected.

[DanO]

Funny.

I've worked as non-union for almost the last 20 years. Never once have I ever looked at a union members compensation, or benefits and wished I had what they had....and I've worked in a municipal environment.

Like many professionals ( particularly those who are supposedly highly educated), I never saw the need to have to negotiate my "value"...the market does that. You either employ people with what the market will value them at, or they do not stay in your employ long. So when sitting down and negotiating salary and compensation, I was able to get what was fair. I took a position in Feb this year, and my salary is above market average, and I have 5 weeks vacation......and no union negotiated that for me.

Teachers unions, and others, exist solely on the premise that the big bad capitalist want to treat them like slaves. Most employers recognize that in todays market, they have to ensure employees are treated fairly, and are valued.

As an aside...the most toxic workplaces I've ever worked in? Unionized, hands down.

Funny even though I worked in a union I always felt I could have done better with out a union. I did all the extras because frankly I enjoyed the time out side the classroom more than in. If the union would have allowed payment for the extras like coaching, outdoor ed trips, highway cleanups, winter camping etc etc, I'd have been paid better IMO. I was always told by the 3;30 track club (that's what teachers call the other teachers that frig off every day at the bell) that it was my choice to coach hockey, football, rugby etc. I know in the American system that pay a flat rate and then you're paid extra for doing extras.

[LoR]

Kind of like performance or merit pay Dan?

As mentioned a good friend is a teacher. She has 20+ years in. When the topic of teacher compensation she point to the salary grids...and being “top heavy”..

She can and will also point to the 7 years she spent in Sudbury on contract..........

Maybe if things were better structured young teachers wouldn’t have to struggle on contract for so long?

Few argue any more ( and this include union heads) that those is Public service earn 10-20% more than their counterparts and that’s begore benefits.

Hydro employees you mention do have benefits. And in order to get them to agree to their latest contract and reduction to 50% tax payer matches pension contribution from 70%...they got 3% of this that and the other when most working stiffs are lucky to see 1.5

Speaking of contracts
How many areas under the PS umbrella are trying to reduce cost by going contracts. My niece a nurse..6 years now and still not full time......

My fiancé was a Trent Uni. Good luck getting in Full time there. It could takes years and years. But they always seem to have $$ for labs, new buildings, ergonomic desk, hydraulic standing desk and sooooiooo much more.

Many municipalities are merging paramedics/fire. A lot of fire are going 24hr shifts......trying to save $$

We have the highest debt level...and as Ms Wynne would brag, one of the leanest PS (headcount) ....

Hmmmm
Maybe we could hire so very many more in so many areas if....

But hey “ps” isn’t overpaid relative to the working stiffs, or even often themselves.

I was an opeu member for awhile. The salary grid is stupid, and who do they sell down the river? Will just say I did not work with a single person that had anything good to say about Smokey or OPSEU

Anywho...
Not sure how people can’t see all the various signs.

Including populism, which really is classwarfare (oops news flash, identity and class politics don’t exist either)


Forest for the trees imo

[MarkB]

Well, it goes both ways. Greed and power are the reasons unions were needed in the first place.

Try working for a global company that would love to get away with treating their employees in Canada the same way they treat them in third world countries. Then tell me unions aren't needed.

I'm guessing you've never worked for such a company, nor have most that are quick to bash unions.

I do agree with some of your points though. There's an ugly side to unions as well.

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

I've never worked under a union. My dad, brother and few uncles do. My dad had to deal with them until he sold his business. My other uncle had to deal with them until he sold his business to a large corp. I still have one uncle that is growing grey hairs dealing with unions. I have two cousins with a tiling company that is unionized. I know enough about it. They for sure have treated employees well, but still the unions make demands and make it difficult for them to stay competitive. The big housing developers don't care about what the union wants when you're in the middle of a big contract, you have to eat the cost.

Anyhow, that is exactly my point ... there should be a balance of power, and given how in bed the unions are with the Liberals, it caused the power to tip to the unions, so costs go up! And then business shuts down! And then everyone loses.

[MarkB]

Plus teachers benefits stop the day they retire.... After the retirement date, benefits if they want them, must come out of their own pocket, a pension they get, benefits they do not...Anyway, things always look greener on the other side..............

That sounds just about like 99% of the jobs out there. Who gets benefits after they retire? Not me ... not my dad, uncles, friends ... I'm not sure who does get benefits after retirement.