MNRF cuts.

[MarkB]

Not twisting your words any more than you're twisting mine. Above you stated that I refused to believe that unions abuse companies. Read back a ways and see that I did state that there is always a percentage of members that will paint an ugly picture of the larger group. Unfortunately they are still members and they have a right to file grievances and the right to fair representation, which in some cases (as I know first hand) makes representatives feel like criminal defence lawyers. It's still part of the process.

If I'm making unions seem like ideological organizations, you're making companies seem like charities because they're willing to provide the minimum legal requirement.

Labour laws are a bare minimum baseline. Unions help to raise workers above that baseline. As discussed way back in the thread, plenty of people don't have a problem negotiating their own salary, benefits and vacation with a reasonable employer based on their worth, but those jobs don't exist for the majority, and the majority of people aren't very good at negotiating their own terms.

You sound like a reasonable guy Mark, but I know your view won't be changed. We can agree to disagree. Your family has had some pretty negative experiences with unions and that has solidified your opinion. The fact is I see it and live it every day and my opinion won't be changed either. My employer is definitely not the same as your family business so our experiences are probably quite different.

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Here is my main point, humans are greedy, selfish ... and it effects both sides companies and employees/unions alike. There has been abuse, on both sides. My family has had a bad experience with unions. My family has also had a bad experience with companies. Both due to the same thing ... power hunger, money hunger.

What I really wish is that there was a way to curb that very issue. When something is created for a legit reason to fight against something bad ... and then the organization created to make things good turns bad ... well, what do we do.

Look for instance at Tarion ... what a mess. It was created to do something good, and then what?

That's what I have a problem with ... abuse.

Can we agree on that?

[fishermccann]

I have worked as a member in a couple of the biggest unions in the country, and for one of the biggest companies without a union, CIBC. The working environment for the average worker in the union shop, was 10 times better than the non-union workplace.

[fishfood]

Seriously Mark? You don't think companies can be unreasonable, abusive and constantly stepping up demands? Get a grip. Don't let your view of "companies" be limited to your family's construction business.

Yes, there can be abuse by unions and companies alike, but you refuse to see the other side.



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Why put up with it?? Maybe he is better off without the union ? Sell and restart can sometimes work out much better. I see where mark is coming from

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[GW11]

Here is my main point, humans are greedy, selfish ... and it effects both sides companies and employees/unions alike. There has been abuse, on both sides. My family has had a bad experience with unions. My family has also had a bad experience with companies. Both due to the same thing ... power hunger, money hunger.

What I really wish is that there was a way to curb that very issue. When something is created for a legit reason to fight against something bad ... and then the organization created to make things good turns bad ... well, what do we do.

Look for instance at Tarion ... what a mess. It was created to do something good, and then what?

That's what I have a problem with ... abuse.

Can we agree on that?

Yes we can agree on that.

Enjoy the weekend!

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[trimmer21]

" Socialism is a scare word they have hurled at every advance the people have made in the last 20 years. Socialism is what they called public power. Socialism is what they called Social Security. Socialism is what they called farm price supports. Socialism is what they called bank deposit insurance. Socialism is what they called the growth of free and independent labour organizations. Socialism is their name for almost anything that helps all the people. " Harry S. Truman. Oct. 1952....... His words still ring true today.

Wasn't Harry Truman a Democrat (Liberal)? That's not surprising,at all.

[Ontariofarmer]

Some socialism or government or public sector is necessary Enough to maintain order - and basic human needs however it must remain small so that the private sector which produces real wealth can carry it and compete with the rest of the world
The private sector pays the bills and if the public sector is too big it crushes the private sector until debt accumulates and bills cannot be paid
Conservation officers police even teachers and fireman are necessary. But how many do we need. How much should they be paid.
The supply of people willing to do most of those jobs is greater than the demand. So wages are too high at the private sectors expense




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[SongDog]

The union I'm part of had a million dollars go missing a couple years ago. President and couple business agents fired, rest swept under the rug and money never recovered. Bunch of corrupt thugs run the union, I do get better pay and benefits hence the reason I'm part of it, But them telling me how to vote and how liberal they are kinda puts a bad taste in my mouth....

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[fishermccann]

Wasn't Harry Truman a Democrat (Liberal)? That's not surprising,at all.

Not surprising ,sure. BUT is there anything untrue in what he said? You say it like an insult ,I wear it as a badge of honour.

[terrym]

I wear it as a badge of honour.

So, when Trudough tried to destroy Vice Admiral Norman’s Career, or groped a reporter in Kokanee or tried to curcumvent the rule of law in the SNC scandal or been convicted of conflict of interest charges for accepting bribes by the Agha Kahn......you support that and consider it honorable? The last time the liberals held office before being kicked to the wilderness we had ADSCAM to deal with. Trudough managed to destroy his cridibility in his first term. Was that honorable too?
Actually don’t answer that. Everybody here knows you do.

[fishermccann]

Do you not realise how silly your reply sounds to rational people. I could find many dishonorable things done by conservatives. Does that mean that you agree with them because you call yourself a conservative? Of course not. I hope not.