Yeah 50 yards, Umm... No!

[MikePal]

It makes a huge difference if your engaging the deer deep in the woods with a thick overhead canopy vs shooting from a tree line into a field. The sound in a sheltered area seem to alarm them in to their 'flight or fight' reaction where as on a field all it does sometime is get their attention.

One of my very early learning experiences: Tree stand deep in the hard woods, a 35yd shot with a 150 lb x-bow. Point of aim to the heart..I could see the arrow in flight as I watched the deer do a 180 and the arrow embed itself in the rear hind quarter on the opposite side from where I was aiming when I pulled the trigger. I was amazed to see how fast he was able to move.

Lost that deer, with a bad hit, little blood and dark by then, I went home and went back a dawn. Did track him for a long time but lost the blood trail.
I have never engaged a bow hunting beyond 30 yds since. Let a lot walk over the years, all it took was one time to sink it in that it wasn't worth pushing the limits.

[GW11]

Is 30 yards an ethical shot with a 250fps crossbow, like an Excalibur Wolverine with 150lbs of draw?

If so then the math shows that 50 yards with a high speed bow is no different for reaction time, the numbers are the numbers.

I won't speak to the ethics of it, that's up to you to decide.

After some experiences I've had with a 175 lb bow at less than 30 yards, I now take a 30 yard shot on a high strung animal like deer very seriously. I also aim lower than I feel like I should have to as the range gets farther to account for the deer's reaction (which is to drop or crouch in anticipation to run). That way if it "jumps the string", or reacts to the shot, I'll still catch the lungs. If it doesn't, I'll hit the heart. That's a good tip for beginners to take note of.

With a 150 pound bow I probably wouldn't be comfortable with a 30 yard shot unless conditions were absolutely in my favour, and they rarely are. 25 yards or less would be a green light, with 20 being more ideal.

Call me conservative, but I prefer short tracking jobs.

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[canadaman30]

I did, back in the way when we all ran 150lb bows at 250fps people would say not to shoot deer at anything more than 30 yards. The speed that the bolt moves now in a high speed bow (420fps) the time that the arrow is in the air before it gets to the animal is about the same at 50 yards as the old bows were at 30 yards. You cannot say that the deer's reaction time has sped up with evolution, the deer could jump the string at 30 yards in the past the same way as they are jumping the string at 50 yards now.

If a 150lb bow at 250fps shooting at 30 yards is ethical based on animals jumping the string then a 420fps bow at 50 yards is exactly the same thing. If your issue is deflection off a branch then your environment is a larger factor and that is an entirely different issue.

Fox, some people won't accept the fact that some new equipment performs at a higher level than older stuff. Or they don't know how to do math...

[Fox]

I won't speak to the ethics of it, that's up to you to decide.

After some experiences I've had with a 175 lb bow at less than 30 yards, I now take a 30 yard shot on a high strung animal like deer very seriously. I also aim lower than I feel like I should have to as the range gets farther to account for the deer's reaction (which is to drop or crouch in anticipation to run). That way if it "jumps the string", or reacts to the shot, I'll still catch the lungs. If it doesn't, I'll hit the heart. That's a good tip for beginners to take note of.

With a 150 pound bow I probably wouldn't be comfortable with a 30 yard shot unless conditions were absolutely in my favour, and they rarely are. 25 yards or less would be a green light, with 20 being more ideal.

Call me conservative, but I prefer short tracking jobs.

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What about a long bow or a recurve? Would you limit your shots to 8-10 yards?

What I am getting at is that the math proves that the time the arrow is in flight for heavier poundage bows is about the same as the older bows where everyone preached 30 yards. If you are 20 yards for the 150lb bow based on your ethics then the arrow would get there in the same time as a 40 yard shot with a newer bow and therefore the reaction of the animal would be the same.

I can tell you with my 42 yard shot that the deer did not jump or move, at 350fps you are not watching the arrow in flight the arrow is just there. My old bow I used to hold high at 50 yards and shoot at targets all the time, would never have considered that bow at 50 yards, passed up shots at 35 and 40 yards, it was a 30 yard shot bow and my single pin was setup at 20 yards for that particular setup. With the Exomag I have no problems at all at 40 yards, 50 yards is not for me with my setup, not at the moment, then again with the newer iteration of the arrows I am using the speed has actually increased and the trajectory is even flatter than before.

I tend to set my self up so that any animal coming out to me with a clear shot is within my window, it takes the question of "should I?" out of it, there is no chance I can take a shot over my ethical range because I cannot see the deer with a clear shot over that mark. I will not take a 60 yard shot on a deer although I know of guys killing them at 65 with a crossbow, I do not think it is right. That being said I do not think based on 1 setup anyone can make a determination on every single setup that exists in every circumstance as was presented here. To say no to a 50 yard shot and to keep it at 30 may be justified with some bows but then again a 30 yard shot is too long for many with traditional archery and 50 is no big deal with another.

It is like saying nobody should shoot at a deer with a shotgun over 50 yards. Well, what are you shooting? What sights? What ammo? How much practice? Is the animal moving? Etc.

It is a blanket statement that is too broad.

[canadaman30]

We have guys in this thread arguing that skills and equipment outweigh simple physics.

250fps is not the same as 420fps, it's simple physics, they don't perform the same.

[GW11]

250fps is not the same as 420fps, it's simple physics, they don't perform the same.

250 fps is 22% the speed of sound. 420 fps is 37% the speed of sound. You've gained 15% on the speed of sound. So... you can stretch a 30 yard shot to 34.5.

It really isn't that difficult. You're a marketer's dream.

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[GW11]

What about a long bow or a recurve? Would you limit your shots to 8-10 yards?

What I am getting at is that the math proves that the time the arrow is in flight for heavier poundage bows is about the same as the older bows where everyone preached 30 yards. If you are 20 yards for the 150lb bow based on your ethics then the arrow would get there in the same time as a 40 yard shot with a newer bow and therefore the reaction of the animal would be the same.

I can tell you with my 42 yard shot that the deer did not jump or move, at 350fps you are not watching the arrow in flight the arrow is just there. My old bow I used to hold high at 50 yards and shoot at targets all the time, would never have considered that bow at 50 yards, passed up shots at 35 and 40 yards, it was a 30 yard shot bow and my single pin was setup at 20 yards for that particular setup. With the Exomag I have no problems at all at 40 yards, 50 yards is not for me with my setup, not at the moment, then again with the newer iteration of the arrows I am using the speed has actually increased and the trajectory is even flatter than before.

I tend to set my self up so that any animal coming out to me with a clear shot is within my window, it takes the question of "should I?" out of it, there is no chance I can take a shot over my ethical range because I cannot see the deer with a clear shot over that mark. I will not take a 60 yard shot on a deer although I know of guys killing them at 65 with a crossbow, I do not think it is right. That being said I do not think based on 1 setup anyone can make a determination on every single setup that exists in every circumstance as was presented here. To say no to a 50 yard shot and to keep it at 30 may be justified with some bows but then again a 30 yard shot is too long for many with traditional archery and 50 is no big deal with another.

It is like saying nobody should shoot at a deer with a shotgun over 50 yards. Well, what are you shooting? What sights? What ammo? How much practice? Is the animal moving? Etc.

It is a blanket statement that is too broad.

With all due respect Fox, you don't know yet whether you're going run into problems or not. It worked out last time, but it might not next time. If you're ok with that, that's fine.

Nobody has to listen to any of the suggestions I've made here. Most of us learn our hunting lessons the hard way. As MikePal said above, he limited his range to 30 yards after losing a deer. I did the same. It's not worth the frustration and sick feeling to put 100% of your faith in the equipment.

Set up safely at 40 yards (you parallel to the target) and have someone shoot your Exomax and see how much you can move between the sound of the shot and the thunk of the bolt in the block. Assume that a deer can move a lot faster than you. Then come back and tell me that it can't happen.






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[onelessarrow]

As a bowhunter, there's never a good time for a deer to know you are visually locked on them. The drop in a deer's chest can be anywhere from a flinch, to the deers brisket touching the ground, depending on the energy they put into it. Every single encounter can have a different response. But if the deer is alert and locked on you, you can bet it'll be the latter.
It's just another of the many variables that go into "the shot", in a whitetail bow hunters world.
Go easy on one another, you're all going to make mistakes when "the shot" presents itself if you hunt long enough. The bowhunters who are successful year after year are the hunters who've made mistakes and are honest with themselves about their limitations and work hard to stay within them.

[canadaman30]

250 fps is 22% the speed of sound. 420 fps is 37% the speed of sound. You've gained 15% on the speed of sound. So... you can stretch a 30 yard shot to 34.5.

It really isn't that difficult. You're a marketer's dream.

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The bolt travel time is the damn near the same at 30yds@250fps as 50yds@420 according to the chart posted. Actually the slower bow is slower to 30 than the faster bow at 50.....

[werner.reiche]

250 fps is 22% the speed of sound. 420 fps is 37% the speed of sound. You've gained 15% on the speed of sound. So... you can stretch a 30 yard shot to 34.5.

It really isn't that difficult. You're a marketer's dream.

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Hey GW11 - generally I see this mostly from your side - but your math is wrong.

***corrected math***

425 fps is about 170% of 250 - so you're gaining about 70% so a 30 yard can be stretched to 51.

A couple other things that have been left out is that all our math is being done with muzzle velocity (don't know the term for bolts) which will:
- decrease faster for bolts with a higher speed
- increases the error on calculation exponentially as distance is increase

Another thing deer can figure out is distance to noise - a noise at 20 yards is far more alarming than a noise at 40 yards.

Personally me - I limit my shots to about 25 yards - that's with a 305 fps xbow.
It's only cost me one chance in 12 years - but he was a nice buck and it was late in the season - so that stung a bit.

I also don't shoot if the deer is looking in my direction - then it's not the speed of sound you're competing with, but the speed of light - but that's a whole other can of worms.