versitile question

[bardern]

guys I have always wondered about the water duck search. I realize that for NAVHDA tests the duck search is a large component on what the dog is marked on and takes a long time for the dog to get right. But for the dogs that are strictly hunters do you train your dogs to line and handle? Handling just seems to be a more efficient method of getting the bird back to the handler as quick as possible.

[little brit]

Your hunting in 7ft high cattails on the bank of a marsh....you shoot a duck and it goes down but glides behind you. You didn't see where it landed but you know it went down and you couldn't mark it. How do you handle your dog to get it if you didn't see it land yourself. This is where your duck search training comes in. You send your dog in the rough direction you think it landed and let your dog work it's nose to find it.

[cdnvizsla]

Most dogs at the Utility Level can handle both tasks. The independent duck search and being handled.
Most handlers try to limit the amount of handling they do over the water because it tends to make the dog reliant on the handler, and the purpose of the exercise is to show independent and intelligent work by the dog to effectively search the pond to locate the game.
In the duck search neither the dog, nor the handler know where the duck is (which is alive and released into the pond)

There is a marked retrieve in the UT water test as well, dogs are penalized for having to be handled during this segment but they can be to save the segment.

[crackerd]

Most dogs at the Utility Level can handle both tasks. The independent duck search and being handled.
Most handlers try to limit the amount of handling they do over the water because it tends to make the dog reliant on the handler, and the purpose of the exercise is to show independent and intelligent work by the dog to effectively search the pond to locate the game.

Sounds good in theory, cdnv, and I like the duck search as much as anybody (albeit with as much artifice in it as any retriever field trial). But it's a myth that actual handling in water as with retrievers makes a dog "reliant on the handler." It's called cooperation and teamwork in the retriever sense - reliance on the handler would show up through popping, which is the dog swimming a short distance, then spinning in the water turning around to face the handler and "asking" Where to next?

Retrievers trained for running blind retrieves don't do that - they just set sail when sent on "Back!" and keep going until a whistle stops them, then they take the cast you give them - and hold the line that takes them to the blind. In the duck search, a dog's supposed to use its nose, not eyes, but all too often whether it's because of the size of the water that's used, or a mouthy duck that tipsa dog off to its whereabouts, the duck search became a visual duck chase.

And if most versatile breeds at the utility level will handle (with any kind of precision), how come the one blind retrieve that's run in NAVHDA - and only at the invitational - is a straight-across-the-pond swim without any "hazards" for having to handle the dogs away from?

MG

[bardern]

sorry guys I am as clear as mud I guess, I am not talking about the trial test. What I am wondering if you guys that just hunt their dogs use hand signals? It is totally understandable if you are in the NAVHDA test stream you certainly would not want your dog to rely on the handler. I just don't see the benefit for a hunting dog to not pickup the bird as quick as possible? I have seen a few very,very good versatiles and for sure they would be capable of learning to handle.

so are you are giving the dog an initial line to get him in the area and the dog takes over at that point?

[krakadawn]

Actually a very good question Bardern.

Why would you not want your hunting dog to handle??

I think most who respond that they don't care or want to are hunters who have never seen the advantage to a very skilled retriever, one who is capable of good marking, good memory but one who takes directions quickly and accurately to retrieve birds. I imagine they are the individuals who do not have the time or knowledge on how to teach a dog to handle and do not take time to keep that training in place.

Without going into trial scenarios, there is absolutely no rival to a field trial dog that has been hunted. Few people have seen how skilled some of these dogs are.

However, regardless of how skilled they are, there will be times when 'father knows best' and a quick handle saves time, energy and gets the bird quickly in case of being a cripple.

A good question for sure.

[cdnvizsla]

They changed that a few years ago crackerd. There is a 100 yard blind across water and there is a double mark as well.
As far as handling goes, in the UT test and the Invitational in the field if it flies it dies.
Often dogs point a bird and get multiple flushes so there are multiple birds down, and the dog has no idea where the other birds are.
They all have to be retrieved or the dog fails, so the ability to hande is a requirement if you want to be successful and not just hope to be.

As far as the duck "chase" goes the time spent chasing a duck is not search, and it is not scored as search.
If a dog locates a duck in 3 minutes spends 10 minutes chasing it and then retrieves it, the dog is resent to continue the search until it has demonstrated 10 minutes of search.

[cdnvizsla]

Absolutely we do give signals, if I am hunting then I want the bird back asap. If I know where the bird is I cast the dog in the direction and if they get off line I steer them in to it.
Only real trick is I try to keep the dog down wind of the bird as its nose will zero it in to the bird if its down wind and it eliminates the need to oversteer.

[crackerd]

the one blind retrieve that's run in NAVHDA - and only at the invitational - is a straight-across-the-pond swim without any "hazards" for having to handle the dogs away from...

They changed that a few years ago crackerd. There is a 100 yard blind across water and there is a double mark as well.

cdnv, do you mean they changed the blind, or changed the invitational to include a double? As I recall, the "100-yard blind across the water" has been part of the invitational for at least 15 years - the folks I know who train for it put out big white buckets on the far side of the pond and send the dog to that "objective," they never really went any further in working on actual handling in the water.

But now that most of the versatile breeds can run AKC retriever hunt tests, real handling with tight control (and cooperation from your dog) is something for NAVHDA handlers to think about in showing just how versatile their dogs can become.

As far as handling goes, in the UT test and the Invitational in the field if it flies it dies.
Often dogs point a bird and get multiple flushes so there are multiple birds down, and the dog has no idea where the other birds are.
They all have to be retrieved or the dog fails, so the ability to handle is a requirement if you want to be successful and not just hope to be.

This might indeed be a NAVHDA change of late, but I've not heard about it. In fact, I remember on a couple of occasions running UT when birds coveyed up and flushed in number, and the guns dropped 3-4 birds. I used "hand signals" too for handling on land and was keen to show it off - only to have the judges, on both occasions, tell me that having the dog attempt to retrieve more than the bird it marked couldn't help my score, but could only hurt it if the dog failed to find the other birds. You always listen to judges in their test, rather than running your own test to get their scoring - at least I did.

As far as the duck "chase" goes the time spent chasing a duck is not search, and it is not scored as search.
If a dog locates a duck in 3 minutes spends 10 minutes chasing it and then retrieves it, the dog is resent to continue the search until it has demonstrated 10 minutes of search.

Got a relatively good grasp of the duck search, almost got it down to a science (and from all the training for the duck search, 4s across the board). But the NAVHDA duck search is very subjective for individual judges and also much dependent on the water you're using for the search. And that's not even getting into the "bashfulness" of handlers who don't want their dogs to catch up to the shackled duck - because they're then judged on the retrieve as well as the search. Personally, I was more attuned to being able to call my dog off a duck at say 400 yards out and 15 minutes spent searching - because she simply didn't give up on any bird she was sent for unless called off it.

MG

[cdnvizsla]

They added a double mark to the Invitational, and took out the shackled duck.
I like adding the double but not a fan of removing the shackled duck. (You could in theory have a VC that has never retrieved a live duck, but I don't make those decisions).

Water sites are the big issue as you pointed out.
There are sites with great water, like the DU pond at Luther, or the Alabama Swamp but then there are some postage stamp sites out there. (Which can be more difficult if you have a dog that moves out)

Handling on multiples is fine, scores wont generally improve if the first bird was clean, but they can if the first bird wasn't so clean. Conversely they can definitely go down.