A Tundra Swan Season In Ontario

[Fenelon]

Re: ""The current limit during the Western Population (WP) Tundra Swan season is 5 TRSW for Utah and 5 TRSW for Nevada with an annual average of only about 3 TRSW being taken in total for both states "

I have some swampland for sale if the Yanks think they've ever been able to monitor the actual percentage of killed birds that are Trumpeters. The data I've seen shows that as high as 19% of the Montanna hunt birds were Trumpeters, and the only reason these got reported was because they were cygnets (next to impossible to tell the two species apart when in flight/in an active hunting scenario, or even when in hand. The cygnet Tundras don't have lore spots). These birds got picked up on the postcard surveys because the hunters submitted cygnet bill lengths, thinking they had harvested Tundras. Separating an adult shot bird is easy once it's in hand (yellow lore spot on adult Tundras). Think how many adult Trumpeters got tossed back into the cattails when the hunter realizes that they've shot a protected bird. Only an idiot would surrender this info. on a postcard survey. Reminds me of the mandatory reporting that we had here for turkey. I can only imagine how many hen turkeys get harvested every spring. You sure won't see these showing up on any survey.

Re: "species recognition course"- this would be a joke! Good luck telling the two species apart, unless you have a vocal flock coming in to your decoys. You'd have to let them land, scope the adults with binocs, looking at head profile shape and presence/absence of lore spots, then you'd get to shoot the bird on the water. If you just had cygnets come in, then you might as well flip a coin to decide if you're going to shoot. I see the scenario being more like: "hunter gets swan tag. Hunter sets up in Presquille Bay or at Darlington in the dark with decoys....large white swan passes by in the trough of the swells, on the outside of the decoys....maybe 10 seconds to decide.....BANG....hunter notices in the blind that the bird doesn't have a yellow spot by its eye, and it has a yellow plastic tag with a black number on its wing.....Trumpeter gets to rot in the cattails.

The only thing positive that I see is that maybe some of the harvested adults are Mutes!

[mojo stick]

[QUOTE=Sprite;770176]Seriously? As opposed to shooting Canadas? What's the difference? As waterfowlers, we should be supporting anything to further the sport. Can't say when the Dove season was proposed I felt that I'd ever have use for it, but that doesn't mean I was against it. That's counter intuitive if you ask me.

Kyle, you obviously don't hunt the Lake very often if you haven't seen large numbers of Tundras.

Sprite
you hunts his area?
Last I checked no.
But you know right . Lol

all the the best to ya getting a season opened for swans . I would have to travel atleast and hour or more to kill one if the season were to open in Ontario and I highly doubt I would bother , doesn't seem appealing.
But hey good luck

[Doug]

Jerome,

Thank you for the response, and expressing both sides of the coin in an honest account. I met hardcoreducks this afternoon and this post was spoken about, we don't feel that we have enough of a fall fly through in our area; but support the objective if others are wanting to.

BTW, your response was long too!

Doug

[Sprite]

Sprite
you hunts his area?
Last I checked no.
But you know right . Lol

Sorry Kyle, I'm having a really hard time understanding your question.

-Nick

[mastercaster]

Jerome,

Its great to see such an informed, Persistent, Dedicated Hunter working so hard for what a large portion of the waterfowling community only wishes they could do. Hats off to you "Buddy Boy".

Your well spoken responses above show your the right one for the job! I look forward to tasting some day, Tundra Swan and Sandhill Crane. When I do - I'll be thanking you alone, not the rest of the do-gooders, or nay-sayers!

Regards,

MC

[GrouseGuy]

I have eaten swans from those we harvested on our annual hunt to North Dakota. They are as good as any waterfowl. I slow roasted them until they fell off the bone and the meat was delectable. I was surprised, however, on the low volume of meat for their size compared to a goose.

We hunted them by decoying them to swan decoys over water and any serious waterfowler would have to agree on the adrenaline packed excitement of such an experience. They really are the big game of waterfowling. To add to the hunt we always put out Canvasback decoys since they feed on the same food and areas as the swans.

We should all hope to have the opportunity to harvest these birds in Ontario. Good to see they are on their way back Jerome.
Pat

[Buddy Boy]

Hello Guys,

A quick response to your comments:

1) Fenelon ... my understanding is that Montana does not have a quota for the incidental harvest of Trumpeter Swans during their western Tundra Swan season according to what I have recently read in The Management Plan for the Western Population of Tundra Swans. However the State of Montana has a Tundra Swan season for the Western Population of Tundra Swans as well as for the Eastern Population of Tundra Swans. It is also my understanding that the USFWS has a "general swan season" out west rather than a specific Tundra Swan season. Consequently the Trumpeter Swan is not a "protected" bird and hunters are not charged for the incidental harvest of one. This is my understanding and it would explain the level of compliance that they have with the hunting community. In any event the Trumpeter Swan population is contining to grow remarkably well.

Please read the "CWS Tundra Swan Season Assessment" (see my separate thread on this).

I believe that a "species recognition course" would help limit the incidental harvest of Trumpeter Swans but not eliminate the potential risk of an incidental harvest. This is in line with The Trumpeter Swan Society (TTSS) policy of not opposing the hunting of Tundra Swans. It is one way ... not the only way ... of limiting the incidental harvest of Trumpeter Swans.

Speaking of the incidental harvest of Trumpeter Swans I have recently been advised by a reputable source that many Tundra Swans (also Trumpeter Swans as per your arguement) are misidentified as Snow Geese and shot during the regular Ontario waterfowl season. Would you suggest that we terminate the Snow Goose season? How about when an inexperienced hunter (in the southern waterfowling district) shoots a second black duck early in the morning thinking that it was a hen mallard ... should we reduce the bag limit to just one duck to prevent this potential scenario from happening? There are other examples that I could present.

I am not attempting to deminish your concerns as they are valid ones but I believe that your presentation of them could have been more "what can we do to prevent this from happening". Are you open to ideas? Do you have suggestions on how a Tundra Swan season in Ontario could work?

As for the Mute Swan ... I have stated before that the CWS and the MNR are discussing removing the Mute Swan from the List of Protect Species. Dr. S. Petrie has suggested this for quite some time and I subsequently presented a proposal to do just that (see my separate thread on this).

2) Mojo Stick ... when I lived in Mississauga I had to drive 2 1/4 hours to get to either Presqu'ile or Long Point to hunt waterfowl. See my new thread "The Tundra Swans are Back at Long Point". Thank you for your support.

3) Doug ... thank you for your support.

4) Sprite ... see my new thread "The Tundra Swans are Back at Long Point".

5) Master Caster ... thank you for your kind words of encouragement and thank you for your support.

6) Grouse Guy ... thank you for confirming what I have heard about the taste of the meat. I do not believe however that you should have to travel to North Dakota to hunt Tundra Swans and that was my point from the onset with my Tundra Swan proposal. Dr. D. Ankney (Chairman of the Scientific Advisory Committee, Long Point Waterfowl) suggested to me back in 2011 that it would probably be easier and cheaper for me to drive to North Carolina to hunt Tundra Swans every year than to get a Tundra Swan season in Ontario but he told me in an e-mail (on file) that he would publically support my Tundra Swan proposal when the time was right. Unfortunately he died last year before the CWS Tundra Swan Season Assessment was completed.

I was told that Tundra Swan decoys are great "confidence" decoys for Canvasbacks and I now have them as part off my "diver decoys". I order them from Patrick at Canadian Waterfowl Supplies every year and donate four Tundra Swan decoys to the various waterfowl fund raisers .

Give me a call (519-586-9825) if you want to come over and photograph the Tundra Swans from my backyard when the ice melts. Please post some pictures on this thread of your Tundra Swan hunt and thank you for your support.

Thanks again to all of you for your interest.

Jerome

[Dead Ringer]

Jerome,

I think that the ID is much harder for Trumpeter vs Tundra and could justify a training requirement for the limited number of hunters who attain the permit. In parts of Australia, the WIC is required for all waterfowl hunters. I am not suggesting that the same be applied to all waterfowl hunters here (they have multiple waterfowl species of special concern to worry about), it would seem feasible to do a test/course/etc for the Tundra Swan hunters since their numbers will be limited. As you suggested, it won't eliminate incidental harvest, but any feasible effort to reduce it would seem like a good idea. Might put some detractors at ease.

John

[Fenelon]

Jerome:
The Montana data gives us a hint of how much higher the Trumpeter harvest is. The year with the 19% harvest meant that 169 Trumpeters were shot out of 890 total birds reported. I personally feel that is totally unacceptable, given that the number reported would merely be the tip of the iceberg. You'd have to be naïve to think that there would be good compliance from permitted swan hunters, even in the two states you've listed that have a bird limit of 5. Think of the implications - you just retrieved your bird and you realize its a Trumpeter. Do you think the average hunter is going to willingly take that bird to a check station, knowing that the result will be the closure of the hunt, when the 5 bird limit has been met? Sorry if I don't have that much faith in most of my fellow hunters!

Re: Snow goose hunt - your statement that Trumpeters get harvested during the Snow Goose hunt merely reinforces why having a Tundra hunt would be such a bad idea. If you have idiots now mistaking a massive Trumpeter for a small Snow Goose, imagine how bad it will be for the Trumpeters if it was legal to pop a Tundra. Regarding the guy that shoots a second Black - that is why we have regulations and enforcement officers. Let them get charged. Maybe they will be a little more ethical/careful the next time they hunt, and they'll pass on those hen Mallards when they already have one Black in the bag.

[drakemallard12]

Jerome,

I think that the ID is much harder for Trumpeter vs Tundra and could justify a training requirement for the limited number of hunters who attain the permit. In parts of Australia, the WIC is required for all waterfowl hunters. I am not suggesting that the same be applied to all waterfowl hunters here (they have multiple waterfowl species of special concern to worry about), it would seem feasible to do a test/course/etc for the Tundra Swan hunters since their numbers will be limited. As you suggested, it won't eliminate incidental harvest, but any feasible effort to reduce it would seem like a good idea. Might put some detractors at ease.

John

I really like and agree with all that you just said there!! I was wanting to write a reply but couldn't quite figure how to write it so thanks dead ringer for finding those words!