I find it so unbelievable that some people want to try and stop another species to hunt. Just imagine if we had done that with Elk, Turkey or doves.
Personally I can see no reason to hunt doves and if I dead I would need a minimum of 20 - 30 for a real meal, maybe they should not have brought that back. But just because I have no interest in hunting it doesn't mean it should have been blocked. Seems to me Buddyboy is putting his own money into this, has done a lot of research, time an effort, contributes to many other efforts to do with waterfowl and he is shot down for this.. Personally I think he is trying very hard to add a new species that we can enjoy.
Anti hunters can just sit back and watch hunters try and ban their own sport.
I don't think guys are against this simply because they want to try to stop another species from being hunted. I talked with Jaycee offline about his reasons for being against a tundra swan hunt. His reasons are valid. Just as guys who support this hunt reasons are valid. I have done some reading on trumpters. If a breeding pair's female is killed, it isn't uncommon for the male to never take another mate (http://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/t...an/lifehistory). With such a limited population of trumpter swans (just over 1000 according to this article http://trumpeterswansociety.wordpres...ion-tops-1000/) in the province, that is a big deal. While I still support the idea, I can't stresss enough about how difficult logistically this would be not to have an accidental shooting.
I was already thinking of this scenario before the harlequin's were brought up. Basically saying you don't want tundra swan hunting allowed do to the fact that trumpeters may accidentally be shot is like saying we should not allow duck hunting PERIOD as a harlequin may accidentally be taken, but thanks for bringing this up yourself Jaycee to discredit your own argument even more than you already have!!!
The excerpt below is a very interesting fact from a book by F.H. Kortright ,The Ducks , Geese and Swans of North America .
Where the article calls them Whistling Swans , these are now called Tundra Swans.
In view of the above , we as hunters have a hard time protecting our image , do we want to seriously damage this image by needlessly killing Trumpeter Swans through miss identification ?
The outcry from the non-hunting public would put us all in very bad light, not just the one hunter that accidentally killed a Trumpeter Swan, but hunters as a whole.
I have seen the validity of the above information from Kortrights book illustrated before me just yesterday- Tundra Swan flocks that were very large and flying very, very high and at the same time , a couple of flocks [8 to 12 birds] of Trumpeter Swans flying almost within gun range.
The area that is proposed for the hunt is close to where they are trying to increase the population of Trumpeters (Hamilton, as well as Onondaga Farms , just south of Cambridge). This area as the swan flies is close to the Long Point area and the miss identification of the two Swan species makes it a very distinct and realistic possibility of Trumpeters being shot as they do fly closer to the ground and over hunters during the season.
With all this , do we really as ethical and moral hunters want to seriously damage our image just to kill one or two birds during the season ?
With regard to Buddyboys posting of where the are open seasons in the U.S. for Tundra Swans , all you have to do is go on the internet and you will find that these States are not areas where Trumpeter Swans are noted to be in. They don't run the same risk we do with shooting the wrong swan.
I am trying to look at the overall picture. Yes, I know that we do have a lot of Tundra Swans , but I do not want to see Trumpeter Swans killed accidentally when it has been so hard to bring them back from near extinction by a group of very dedicated, hard working individuals.
These are my personal views. While I recognize I will not change BuddyBoy's or Duckslayer's views, my view is worth mentioning nonetheless.
Jaycee, does this mean you also feel the mute swan should continue to be protected for fear of hunters killing the "wrong swan"? The Mute being about the size of a trumpeter but much more aggressive may eventually populate and expand to where they themselves lower the populations of both native swans through competition ... generally, delisting a species (such as the mute or the cormorant) takes too long and by the time it happens the damage is done and the population is already too high for hunting to affect it.
I am not versed on the possible competition problems between the tundra and trumpeter swans ... if the tundras "overpopulate" will this affect the populations of trumpeters thorough competition? If this is so, should not the tundras be kept under control now if their numbers are climbing above management numbers? I am not sure if there is research in this area or what it has uncovered.
Personally, I like the "controlled (limited) hunt for tundra swans" in Ontario (although I would likely not take advantage of it) ... and I would really like and insist on the delisting of mute swans which I believe are going to cause more problems than anticipated very soon as their nunbers are growing fast.
My thought is that since the number of trumpeters is so low, the risk of accidentally shooting one is also low, no?
I dunno, if you don't know what your shooting, don't shoot. Its really that simple to me. Of course, I'm not meat hungry, and shoot everything that comes into range like A LOT of others are, so I have no problem watching birds come thru my spread and fly away. I also have enough experience that I usually know whats headed for my spread long before they are in range, so its a non issue for me.
Can anyone properly ID these guys?? Well within range.....
A Mute Swan is more easily identified , by it's orange bill and the knob on it , verses the all black bill of a Trumpeter [use binoculars if they are at any distance]. The Mute Swan is also not vocal as it flies [quiet] as apposed to the other two species.
There are a few along the Grand and Speed rivers in Cambridge .
To answer your question, no I do not feel they should be protected, as they are an introduced species [not native] they are from central Eurasia.
They are easily identified , and they are the most aggressive/combative of the waterfowl , driving off any other waterfowl in the area, I have seen this numerous times on the river , as soon as they arrive all other waterfowl usually leave and give them a wide berth.
Just a note ... I have hundreds of mute swans near my decoys throughout each year, and they are quite vocal even in the air with a number of different sounds (but they are softer sounds than other swans). Although I can easily identify a mute, that is due to experience, but I am not sure that there would not be more mistakes on trumpeters made from a mute delisting than a tundra limited season. I am not convinced all hunters would be able to see the difference, especially if there are alot of mutes in the area and a trumpeter happens by once in a while.
Even with this expectation, I still support the mute delist and tundra season, mistakes can happen, but I don't expect enough to affect the population.
Are there any numbers on how many of each of these native swans are taken by the native tribes each year? Has their harvest had a population effect?
Last edited by Gadwall; April 4th, 2014 at 02:09 PM.
could the same not be said for duck hunting and accidentally shooting a harliquin or black duck??
So duck hunting all together realistically should be stopped until all species rebound.
Based on the swan exercise nobody could disagree.
Originally Posted by Sinker
My thought is that since the number of trumpeters is so low, the risk of accidentally shooting one is also low, no?
I dunno, if you don't know what your shooting, don't shoot. Its really that simple to me. Of course, I'm not meat hungry, and shoot everything that comes into range like A LOT of others are, so I have no problem watching birds come thru my spread and fly away. I also have enough experience that I usually know whats headed for my spread long before they are in range, so its a non issue for me.
Can anyone properly ID these guys?? Well within range.....
S.
"This is about unenforceable registration of weapons that violates the rights of people to own firearms."—Premier Ralph Klein (Alberta)Calgary Herald, 1998 October 9 (November 1, 1942 – March 29, 2013) OFAH Member
1) Duck Slayer (Post # 117) ... thank you for mentioning that the Harlequin Duck is a legal bird on the south side of Lake Erie as it brought a new dimension to this discussion.
2) Great White (Post # 119) ... you may not know this but perhaps the only reason that we now have a Mourning Dove season is because when I first discussed the possibility of having a limited Tundra Swan season with Dr. S. Petrie (Executive Director, LPW) in January of 2010 he suggested that if I wanted to do something for the "hunting community" that I should submit a proposal for a Mourning Dove season rather than a limited Tundra Swan season. He also advised me that he would support my proposal if I submitted one, that Long Point Waterfowl had already conducted a public opinion survey regarding a potential Mourning Dove season, that he would provide me with a copy of the results of that public opinion survey and that the OFAH would support my proposal as well since the OFAH already had prepared a "position statement" (as I recall the term that was used) regarding a potential Mourning Dove season. I eventually submitted my "Proposal for a Mourning Dove Harvest in the Province of Ontario" in September of 2010 (see separate thread regarding this topic) and it was subsequently discussed and accepted by the Ontario Waterfowl Advisory Committee (OWAC) during a meeting that was held in November of 2010. The minutes of that OWAC meeting however indicated that the OFAH had previously discussed the topic prior to the submission of my proposal.
Note: The OFAH had previously discussed the topic of a Mourning Dove season but had not submitted a proposal for a Mourning Dove season.
Note: I will post a separate special response regarding the financial committment to the "waterfowling community" that I made in December of 2010. Thank you for your continued support.
3) Duck Slayer (Post # 120) ... well said ... thank you.
4) Dyth Bringer (Post # 121) ... although I share the same concern that you have expressed to Great White the CWS has already examined this concern within their Tundra Swan Season Assessment and has determined that it should not prevent a limited Tundra Swan season in Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and maybe even a part of Quebec (under special consideration) since the Tundra Swans have now expanded into that province. Please read the CWS Tundra Swan Season Assessment for the details.
5) Jaycee (Post # 123) ... the continental Trumpeter Swan population has been nearly doubling every ten (10) years since that book was published (I have a copy that I bought in the early 1980s).
Furthermore the Pacific Coast Trumpeter Swan Population (26,000 in 2010) is close to the maximum that the existing wintering habitat can tolerate while both the Rocky Mountain Trumpeter Swan Population (10,000 in 2010) and the Interior Trumpeter Swan Population (10,000 in 2010) have doubled between 2005 to 2010. Finally the previous downfall in all waterfowl populations was the result of the unregulated commercial market hunting that was terminated by the Migratory Bird Treaty Act of 1918. Furthermore I recently read that the Trumpeter Swan while once common east of the Rocky Mountains was never plentiful just like the Tundra Swan while once common along the Pacific Coast was never plentiful suggesting that these two species of swans appeared to have divided up the continent between themselves.
Although you may currently have a point with regards to the eastern population of Tundra Swans the USFWS is currently considering additional opportunities to hunt Tundra Swans that will include the incidental harvest of Trumpeter Swans in those states.
Furthermore in regards to the western population of Tundra Swans the USFWS already has a general swan season in Montana, Nevada and Utah. Each of these states have Trumpeter Swans migrating through them. Please review the Utah swan hunter course for more details.
I appreciate your concern for the Trumpeter Swan population and I value your participation within this thread however the CWS has already taken this concern under consideration. Please read the CWS Tundra Swan Season Assessment for the details.
6) Gadwall (Post # 124) ... I agree that there will probably be a greater risk to the Trumpeter Swan population with the removal of the Mute Swan from the List of Protected Species (since anyone will be able to shoot them at anytime without any limits) than with the introduction of a limited Tundra Swan season (since only a select group of very dedicated "waterfowlers" will have a tag to harvest just one Tundra Swan). This is probably why it is taking so long to remove the Mute Swan from the list ... how will the CWS and NMR manage that? I have a suggestion that I may present to Mr. J. Hughes (Head of Population Management, CWS) in the near future.
The Tundra Swans breed a lot further north (arctic) than the Trumpeter Swans so competition with the Trumpeter Swans is not a concern.
Please read my comments to Jaycee in (5) above regarding the distribution of the three (3) Trumpeter Swan populations vs the two (2) Tundra Swan populations.
7) Sinker (Post # 125) ... you are right (even without any attempt to identify the species of swan) the fact that there are so many Tundra Swans compared to the number of Trumpeter Swans the odds are that very few (if any) will be shot. However because there are so few Trumpeter Swans it is important to minimize that risk wherever and whenever possible without preventing a Tundra Swan season. The official policy of The Trumpeter Swan Society (TTSS) is to minimize the risk of an incidental harvest of a Trumper Swan ... not to eliminate the risk. Please review their web site for more details.
Although the swans in your photograph may have been in range at the time you took the photograph I have always found that a picture makes the "birds" look smaller than they actually are. I suspect that the birds in your photograph are Trumpeter Swans but regardless I would not shoot unless I heard them (Tundra Swans) calling.
8) Jaycee (Post # 126) ... I agree about the Trumpeter Swan and the Tundra Swan being vocal during flight. Consequently if I was a totally blind waterfowl guide I could without any doubt tell you when to shoot and when not to shoot a native swan. The Mute Swan has various sounds (often a course hissing sound) totally unlike either of our native swans.
9) Gadwall (Post # 127) ... the Mute Swan will displace every living creature nearby ... they are the "marsh bully" of the waterfowl world and will not be missed. They are also known to attack humans and I have personally seen this happen at Long Point ... three women in a paddle boat vs one mean Mute Swan ... needless to say the Mute Swan won as the three unarmed women (although one of them had a hand paddle) retreated back to shore within a "sinking" paddle boat.
The native (Canadian and American) harvest of Tundra Swans is estimated to be less than 5,000 from the eastern population and less than 5,000 from the western population with no estimate (that I have seen) regarding the Trumpeter Swan harvest since they do not need to identify the species of swan before they shoot. However most would be Tundra Swans since they breed a lot further north (arctic) than the Trumpeter Swans. Please note that the natives also harvest swan eggs during the nesting period in addition to their "subsistence" harvests during the spring and fall migrations.
10) Great White (Post # 128) ... well yes ... that was basically what I was suggesting in a facetious manner when I suggested that we terminate all "waterfowl" hunting and permit the Americans to harvest our share of the ducks and geese like they are currently doing with our share of the swans.
Re. your post above , it appears that you are trying to take all the credit for the reinstallation of the Mourning Dove Hunt , what happened to all the efforts by The OFAH and all it's membership that had for years been pushing for this hunt to be reinstated?
There have also been many members that sent letters and signed petitions to the MNR and CWS, all asking for the Mourning Dove hunt to be reinstated.
Concerning the Trumpeter Swan , you keep giving us population figures for these birds however they are for the Pacific Coast and Rocky Mountain and interior population of 26,000, 10,000, 10,000, respectively. These figures are all for the U.S. population .
We are in Canada , and in particular Ontario, what we are concerned with is a small population of 800 birds as per figures quoted by The Trumpeter Swan Coalition based out of Hamilton Ontario.
If by accident , 10 birds were shot accidentally [ as is likely due to their propensity to fly closer over land and hunters] during a hunt in this small part of the Province , that would take out a lot of birds from the area flocks which would be very devastating to the progress made by this group of dedicated people who have been trying for over 30 years to get this area population up to what it is now .
Food for thought, we have over 5000 Woodland Caribou here in Ontario, there is no season for them here but they are hunted in Quebec and elsewhere.
As I have said before some things we just should not hunt .
You have been expressing "your opinion " and I am expressing mine also with facts included.
Originally Posted by greatwhite
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