any insight

[terrym]

Clearly you have made up your mind on breed. My advice is if the Quebec breeders aren't producing hunting dogs but show dogs then avoid them altogether. I and a few other members here bought our dogs from the USA and the logistics of it are simple. If you can source a good hunting bloodline down there then I would buy there. My only criticism of rare breeds is that you have very little genetic choice in pedigrees. The very few owners likely use very few studs so most dogs are very closely related. If it's a solid bloodline the point may be moot but if there are problems then odds are you are buying them also. There is a reason why Labs, Setters and GSP's are so popular. Choice and proven pedigrees and track records. What you seem to require is a low energy easily trained dog. There are other breeds that are easier to train and bloodlines can make one pedigree seem completely different than the other of the same breed. You are of the opinion that Griffons and Pudelpointers are rare? Not so. In Ontario they are actually more popular than you think. I'm sure some members who own those breeds can chime in and give you experienced advice on thier dispositions and trainability. There is a member here who has a couple Small Munsterlanders who I have hunted with and that breed also sounds like it would suit you quite well, I would research them also.

[jobbershunting]

Again Krakadawn thanks for the advice .
So you know I have been hunting for 20 years and have hunted above many different breeds but for the most part they have always been GSP's , I have spent many summers in Italy hunting and being a field with dogs in Europe and have seen how these "RARE" breeds hunt, the whole "Rare breeds are rare for a reason" line kills me, what does that even mean. like I said earlier there are a lot of factors that make a breed rare and I'm sure cost would be a big one, labs, britts, GSP's,setters, there are thousands of breeders across north America so to the price is reasonable,it has to be there's a lot of competition, for the BF there are only 17 across north America so its a bit pricier for one, another factor is popularity, some breeds stuck and some didn't, for no other reason then then that, I know the BF are not a bad hunting breed they are extremely popular in Europe and south America.

X2.

Popularity is often based on many other things other than sound reasoning.

How absurd would you think someone was if everything they purchased in life was based on the rationale that "Hey, it is popular, so it must be the most effective, longest lasting, highest performing thing".

[Sharon]

I don't know much about much...but...think of rare breeds like trucks. Ford F150's are seen everywhere, are fairly cheap(er) then the rarer trucks like a Land Rover, Land cruiser, or a Mercedes 4x4. The latter does everything the F150's can do, but are more expensive, less common, harder to find......

I think if you want a solid dependable proven dog your choice are fairly simple....if you want to look outside of the box....your in the right direction.

I have a Pudelpointer, which suits me perfectly, not that a Brittany couldn't have done the same, at half the cost and minus the trip to Boise Idaho.

Just say'n

Don.

Wow. Such excellent posts! A real good debate.

[welsh]

The problem with "rare breeds are rare for a reason" is that it ain't the breed so much as the breeding. I can find lousy Pointers, GSPs and Labs easily. Go to Fingal or Hullett and you'll find them, too. All dogs are not equally bred and obviously anyone can ruin a well bred dog with bad training.

I have a rare breed and she drives me nuts all summer in training, by not being more like a Springer. When October rolls around I realize I have exactly the dog I want. And no one can tell me that I'd change my mind if I saw what a well-bred spaniel can do. That's a long story so I'll leave it at that.

I don't know much about much...but...think of rare breeds like trucks.

Great post.

... long outings are not real good so if you're looking for a dog to hunt all day, he's not it. He goes balls to the wall the entire time he hunts. Yesterday we hunted for 4 hours and that was way too long. At this point in the season his conditioning is great so he did not have any issues but realistically hunting for 2 hours should have been the max. My point - in the UK their "hunting" consists of driven shoots on land where they manage bird populations. So a dog is only hunting 20-30 minutes at a time and then there are other dogs that are used to retrieve shot game.

It's not really a UK thing, although I agree their current hunting scene is silly, it's a trial thing. Someone remarked at a hunt test this summer re the improvement he'd seen in Cockers over twenty years -- by which he meant that the Cockers now ran more like Springers, flat out. Some dogs learn to adjust their pace, but some don't. As long as running flat-out is the accepted standard for a "quality" dog, we'll have dogs you can only hunt for a couple of hours.

This doesn't seem to be restricted to spaniels. I can't count the number of people I run into out there who run the dog no more than an hour and a half and then say he's had enough. Whether that's the hunter's excuse for resting sore feet, I don't know.

[Sharon]

It's not really a UK thing, although I agree their current hunting scene is silly, it's a trial thing. Someone remarked at a hunt test this summer re the improvement he'd seen in Cockers over twenty years -- by which he meant that the Cockers now ran more like Springers, flat out. Some dogs learn to adjust their pace, but some don't. As long as running flat-out is the accepted standard for a "quality" dog, we'll have dogs you can only hunt for a couple of hours.

This doesn't seem to be restricted to spaniels. I can't count the number of people I run into out there who run the dog no more than an hour and a half and then say he's had enough. Whether that's the hunter's excuse for resting sore feet, I don't know.

Not sure I exactly understand what you are saying. Certainly in pointing breed trials the dog has to cover a lot of ground . Championships can be 3 hours long.
However, many of those same dogs hunt with their owner/handler all Fall and many make a trip out west for a week +-. They hunt all morning , have a lunch break , and hunt all afternoon. It's the conditioning that allows for that, otherwise..........

PS I went to some spaniel trials in NY once. The dogs certainly didn't run "flat out".

"As long as running flat-out is the accepted standard for a "quality" dog, we'll have dogs you can only hunt for a couple of hours.." quote Welsh

I assume you are talking particularly about spaniels?

[welsh]

I assume you are talking particularly about spaniels?

Cass is talking about his Cocker and I'm suggesting that the problem of pace comes from trial standards, not the beating line where speed is irrelevant, so yes, I'm talking about spaniels.

I've never put a stopwatch to a spaniel trial but the time a dog runs in any given series is measured in minutes, not hours. The middle manager rule applies: if you have two dogs that are both getting the job done, the edge goes to the dog that looks like it's working harder. To be a champion the dog has to go hard. Whether you think the dogs are running "flat out" or not, you can't sustain that pace for long.

The dog will learn to slow down if it has to hunt for hours, and the risk is it will carry that lesson back to the trial environment. Some dogs learn to adapt, of course, and that's the ideal.

As far as other breeds go, as I said, I can only go by what I see in the field each fall. Lots of people done after an hour and half or two hours and saying they're saving the dog. Whether they're just covering for their own poor physical conditioning, I can't say.

[Cass]

Not sure I exactly understand what you are saying. Certainly in pointing breed trials the dog has to cover a lot of ground . Championships can be 3 hours long.

I assume you are talking particularly about spaniels?

A run in a spaniel trial is generally over within 10 minutes. The faster the dog, the quicker the finds, and shorter the run. When I give my dog the first cast of the day he looks like I lit his tail on fire. Dirt and gravel flies. It's like he can't get moving quick enough. Quite common in the spaniel trialing world

[Gilroy]

Thanks for the advice. I will keep it in mind. But the whole "rare breeds are rare for a reason" thing I don't buy into. There are a lot of factors that make a breed rare. Cost, availability, ext. I would like to see responses from those who do in deed have a rare breed such as the pointing griffon, or the brocco Italian, or the poudelpointer. Just because a dog breed is uncommon in north America does not make it a bad breed. They are very common in Europe and around the world just not here.

Your right not to buy into the rare breed comment.My avatar a Dogo Argentino is a rare breed.It is also the most Highly bred dog in the dog world.Unfortunetly the dog snobs who lurk on this board and have No clue about the breed, have and still make comments about a lot of breeds, some can't even identify one breed from another.I would take their advice with more than a pinch of salt.Their replies to this post will be a good indicator to you of where they are coming from.

[Jakezilla]

Most of the people I know that own rare breeds own them to be a rare breed owner, not necessarily to have the best bird dog and there is nothing wrong with that. This is a thread about bird dogs and if you don't buy into the "rare breeds are rare for a reason" comment, you probably need to get out and watch more bird dogs because if you do the truth of that statement will become evident.

[krakadawn]

Gilroy, the OP was requesting information about a specific breed as he/she were looking at that breed as a gun dog. I don't see that the 'dog snobs' as you say are trying to belittle any of the wide range of sporting dogs that exist. They like anyone have opinions about what they see and relate that to specific uses. I am clear in mind that there are breed specific talents and that before one jumps into any boat for a new dog, then better do some research and it should be firsthand to see if there is a match up with their personal needs.

I kinda like your guy, he isn't for me and what I do but I think that he is a neat breed and know you are proud of him. I don't see him lining up to get into the boat on a cold morning like today when one of mine was retrieving broad bills at day break....but that's OK.

I do think there are some folks here that have a fair bit of experience with a broader range of dogs but you're right about some and lurking on the internet. I think your final comment was trying to bait people somewhat. Perhaps a better approach would have been to start a new thread inviting people who have some of the less common breeds(notice I didn't say rare) post a bit about their individual, what he's good at, what's great about that breed and offer any other pertinent information like any outstanding individuals in competition etc. I'd post some of my young labs but they're pretty generic....just hard charging duck dogs who live to get birds in their mouth....even in a cold morning like today.

Make it a learning thread for everyone.

Cheers