Throne Speech: Liberals to introduce Gun control measures

[welsh]

By the way Mooboy, thanks for those facts. they certainly change the spin cycle don't they. Actually you never hear those stats much from the leftwing media as I guess they don't support the agenda.

Actually, you don't hear those facts because they are not facts.

The fact is that before the Australia gun buyback (1997), there was already a trend of increasing suicide by hanging, and decreasing suicide by firearm. This trend continued in the year following the buyback, but from 1998 to 2007 the rates of both hanging and shootings declined. In 2007, the national suicide rate was 13.1/100,000 (males) compared to 28.3 (males) in 1998. Although the proportion of hangings relative to firearms and all other means increased in that time, the overall rate had dropped significantly, so there is no reason to believe that would-by gun suicides had substituted hanging.

That something is wrong with the story we've been told ought to be clear with a little critical thinking. There are many methods of killing yourself: carbon monoxide, pills, razor blades, tall buildings, hanging, and drowning yourself, among others. Why the focus on hanging? Because only hangings rose following the buyback. Everything else fell. And conveniently, the proportion of hangings continued to rise as time went on, which has allowed people to publish misleading graphs showing a rising trendline for hanging while the trendline for shooting falls. But when you look at all the methods available, and consider the rate of suicide by method rather than the proportion of suicides by each method, the deceptiveness of this argument is clear.

https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2010/...-1988-and-2007

This is consistent with other research. The evidence is compelling: where firearms are more widely available, not only are firearms suicides higher, but overall suicide rates are higher. There is little substitution of means. People appear to be more likely to commit suicide where guns are more available because of the perception that shooting yourself, unlike hanging yourself or slashing your wrists, will be quick and certain.

I think improving mental heath care would likely prevent some suicides more than confiscating firearms or classes of firearms from people who are not at risk of suicide.

Most people who commit suicide have had no previous contact with the mental health system. There is no reason to believe that putting more money in the magical "mental health" bucket is going to reduce firearms suicides.

What is most likely to reduce firearms suicides, without confiscating guns, is a cool, level-headed acceptance of the fact that firearms are an important risk factor for suicide, leading in turn to sensible storage habits and a readiness to act when people are at risk. Again, let's compare guns to alcohol. We don't deny that drinking causes problems. We accept it and deal with it, then go have a beer.

Denial achieves nothing.

[onelessarrow]

Correct. And they were wrong.

The people who are now warning of hidden Liberal agendas are doing exactly the same thing: projecting their fears onto the opposition on the assumption that everyone is as ideologically driven as themselves.



Correct. We can only speculate. Let's try to remember that speculation is speculation.



No, the CPC engaged in a long and protracted campaign of messaging, with the aim of convincing the general public that the LGR was wasting money. Perhaps you've forgotten all the grumbling that they were moving too slowly? They waited until their messaging created the environment where they could abolish the LGR without political cost.
Auditor generals report started that ball rolling. 2mil to 2bil. By the end of the liberals reign it was all about the registries uselessness. Even the cops were falling out of rank. Believe what you want.



By the way, repeated research has shown that people who complain most about media bias are the same people who are themselves most driven by ideology and least likely to change their views when confronted by conflicting factual information. They see bias because it explains away the conflict between the facts and their views. But don't let that worry you -- all that research was done by biased researchers!

I barely follow the media now a days and I have a daughter who writes for a Provincial paper.

[welsh]

ROFL.

I described the highly successful CPC communications strategy re the registry.

You take this as some kind of attack on the objective truth.

That's partisanship.

[JBen]

Few things.
1) Was the LGR a waste of money? Absolutely. And unless anyone can provide stats that show various crimes went down, or that CDNs were safer. It by definition was ineffective and a collosal waste. Not sure how that translates into a spin campaign by CPC.

2) here's some stats for everyone. Easily verified by going to stats can.

Per capita (100k)
Male middle aged suicide: 24
Female mid aged suicide: 8
Gun deaths: 2

What gets attention, what is a priority and gets action, or funding? That's not fear mongering.

Fact: the liberal party thinks we need more GC in order to make CDA safer.

Yet, there are 4x as many female deaths by suicide to gun deaths. And 4 times (they claim these days, the latest available stats show 3x) as many male deaths to suicide than femal and no one knows why, nor is there any "action".

So accusations that people are reacting purely out of fear, without basis, is in itself. Speculation, and given the above (what's killing people and what isn't and if they really wanted to make us safer........)

. The concerns about more GC or LGRs (some variant...see demanding retail stores record transactions)...have basis
.

[welsh]

Few things.
1) Was the LGR a waste of money? Absolutely. And unless anyone can provide stats that show various crimes went down, or that CDNs were safer. It by definition was ineffective and a collosal waste. Not sure how that translates into a spin campaign by CPC.
.

If you believe that politics is about what's true, or what's right, you don't understand politics. Politics is about persuasion.

In politics, it does not matter whether something is objectively true. It matters only whether the voting public believes it to be true. If you don't win the public over, you don't keep governing. So regardless of whether the gun registry actually was a colossal waste of money, the CPC had to first convince the public that this was the case before abolishing it. They were highly successful in doing so. Consequently, it is a dead issue.

[Gilroy]

I can't believe this thread is still going.

Ok I can probably get it closed down for you LOL.

Listen Lads we won the election ,fair and square and your in a minority, period. This is a democracy and Mr Harper and his supporters have had their day. The Governments are voted in by the citizens and anything they do is a reflection on what the majority wants.

The Prime Minister is fantastic and with the aid of the NDP and his own great Ministers and advisers will lead this great country forward .The LGR will not be re established but I ,am sure some guns will be re classified. Have a great day.

[greatwhite]

Forward, seeing as taxes are going up soon I call that backwards.

Ok I can probably get it closed down for you LOL.

Listen Lads we won the election ,fair and square and your in a minority, period. This is a democracy and Mr Harper and his supporters have had their day. The Governments are voted in by the citizens and anything they do is a reflection on what the majority wants.

The Prime Minister is fantastic and with the aid of the NDP and his own great Ministers and advisers will lead this great country forward .The LGR will not be re established but I ,am sure some guns will be re classified. Have a great day.

[JBen]

Yes or no Welsh.
Did the LGR demonstratebly (stats ) make CDNs safer. There's only one answer. By definition a failure,by definition a colossal waste of resources.

I suppose then the gas plants/cover up is a spin/persuasion? It's kind of hard to spin the truth/factson those occasions when the jury is in.

When things are subjective, or other I quite agree, politics (and save the "insults", I understand them quite well) is about manipulation.

See the 2nd half of my post.
Statistically middle aged men are committing suicide at an alarming rate.
Yet what gets $ for prevention? Here's a "scary" thought. No one, knows why middle aged men are killing themselves at a rate that is far, far above.that of middle aged women..in fact, it's only just beginning to get "attention", get some light, some questions being asked "wtf". Why are men....

And in the instance of mental health (a side bar into domestics and men killing wives.....)

Even women are killing themselves at a rate that should raise eyebrows.

Yet JT/LIberals want to focus on guns.
That's the spin.

[JBen]

For the record I see your point. The people the cons had to "convince", would have been those who were ambivalent or initially in favor and without common sense.

The politics of fear are used all the time. See today and Syrian refugees. Both the Con and Libs used "fear" to persuade voters.

Here's something I find outrageously funny. We Canadians look down our noses at the U.S. When it comes to guns/gun deaths, especially the left.

U.S. Per capita gun deaths: 30
See our suicide rates. M 24, F 8, and gun deaths 2

And what gets the time of day? Next time someone/anyone says Americans are idiots, or crazy (all the shootings) or scoffs at the U.S. for doing nothing...............might want to look in our backyards. We are killing ourselves at a rate that's approaching the U.S. Gun death rate and
/crickets

[Rugger]

Canada

2.22

(2007-2011)

0.51 (2007-2011)

1.60 (2007-2011 avg)

0.04 (2007-2011)

0.02 (2007-2011)

Statistics Canada [12]

United States

10.64

(2013)

3.55 (2013)

6.70 (2013)

0.16 (2013)

0.09 (2013)

Guns in United States[71]

Total Homicide Suicide Unintentional Undetermined

Gun deaths per 100,000, per year From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Suicide rates per country per 100,000: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y_suicide_rate