A divided nation

[Sharon]

again, I think this is an extreme exception and not common. Did you have a bad experience with a spoiled brat somewhere in your past ? I don't think it's realistic to have policy discussions with these odd examples. Most people work for what they have, and when you've worked for something, most of us VALUE it and are reluctant to share with those who have not worked. That's just the way we're wired.

like Dyth, I saved money where I could and worked to get through post-secondary with minimal help from my parents. I'm not saying it's easy but everyone makes choices with their money. I'm asking that they not make choices with MY money. That means you Kathleen.

Well said. I too worked all day , and went to University at night and Sat. morning for 8 years to get my B.A and Special Education Specialist ; that has paid off financially/opportunities big time over my working years.
I tutor math/english on line, and when a student tells me that he/she can't afford to go to college/university , I tell them my story. Their common response is "Well, nobody does that now."

[terrym]

The cold reality is we don't need every kid to go to university. Far too many graduates already. What's the point of graduating twice as many teachers as is needed or nurses? In many cases what we need are skilled trades and these days most trades pay extremely well. Call a plumber or electrician and see what they charge. In many cases a degree is beneficial but as already mentioned not much demand for most Arts degrees. Yet those programs are heavily subsidized by mostly borrowed tax dollars. Education is good but at some point simple basic priorities have to be set. I'm pretty sure the money trees have died off.
Having said this I do agree that in an advanced and wealthy society like ours that higher education shouldn't be reserved for the sons and daughters of wealthy people. There should be no barriers to post secondary if they can get the marks. We waste billions on crooked initiatives and cover ups. How many kids could we have educated with ADSCAM, Ornge, Gas plants and on and on........

[JBen]

I almost agree with you. The one thing I think we need to stop is penalizing those that have because we envy their situation. There are people who work hard, maybe you can argue are little lucky, and make some good money. We cannot argue helping those in need, by waging war on those that have worked hard and are succesful. It is not their sole responsibility, and they have done no crime to deserve isolating them and making them responsible for everything. I am 100% against penalizing succesful people by over-taxing them. You work your butt off to make money, and then someone can come and take it all away? Not a very good recipe for success. Everyone will just say, screw it, and not put in the effort. Then what does society become?

I do though support helping those who have worked hard all their lives and are struggling to make ends meet. However, what if they want the $10,000 trip each year to Hawaii, what if they are over-spending?? We need to ensure the struggle isn't their own doing. [COLOR=#ff0000]I have total sympathy for a single parent and/or with a child with special needs. Life has thrown them a bad bone, and that's when society needs to step up AS A NATION and say we want to help, this is what our nation is all about.

But, leave the "haves" out of the "haves not" discussion. The "haves" have what they have because they worked hard for it.

YUP!! And this where the social left utterly fails....They throw people who are "struggling" under the bus. Over and Over and Over. Me I'm lucky, I make (or made lol) good coin. The tax man and Gords of the world see my T4...
They don't see the cancer, they don't see the tens of thousands in medical cost, the don't see the child diagnosed with X and who will "struggle" all her life, but qualifies for nothing, nor do they see the child who spent 3 months in hospital, was badly victimized and as a result came off the rails herself.

Not a chance in hell I could put either through Uni, but I suppose I can pay to put other kids through.

What about those who weren't or aren't as "lucky" as me.

Yes,yes and yes and that's exactly the way the system should work. All socialists hate this adage,but,it's 100% true. "There's no such thing as a free lunch." If people with "smarts" want an education,they're "smart" enough to figure out how to pay for it t-h-e-m-s-e-l-v-e-s without whining and snivelling that they "didn't get the breaks in life". Stealing from those who have already "made it" to the top is just that ,theft,pure and simple. That's just life.

NOPE
And this is where hard liners are wrong. Tell that to many of my teen friends, especially those from Regent Park. Many are very smart, they often end up using those smarts to fleece the system, or well to do high brow academics nine ways to Sunday instead. How many "break out"...Not that many. Me I was blessed or cursed with an "IQ" over 170. Smart enough to get myself in all kinds of trouble and still dumb enough to make all kinds of mistakes. Ask me how much I think of that. Not much.

The ticket out of poverty is hard work !!
You can make more in the trades now than most with a Bachelor degree and you only need a grade 12 and the willingness to work to be in the building trades.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

True kind of. There are still barriers for many. See above.

What happened to as they were called back then Trade schools you couldn't make it to high school but they took you in at trade school??? In my time they had both yea we teased them not good enough for real school.

But I know alot of them and the guys I know are retired now. I with my education am still struggling ??

Yes I'm in the trade's licensed Electrician

Life happens. The left often forget that, something any Financial Advisors knows all too well.
job loss...out comes the credit line for many..
health or parents they one day have to take care of
Even car accidents.
Legal troubles and say legal fees that wipe out....
How many single moms do I know who work their off and can't find 2 nickels?
How many single dads renting basement apartments?.......

The cold reality is we don't need every kid to go to university. Far too many graduates already. What's the point of graduating twice as many teachers as is needed or nurses? In many cases what we need are skilled trades and these days most trades pay extremely well. Call a plumber or electrician and see what they charge. In many cases a degree is beneficial but as already mentioned not much demand for most Arts degrees. Yet those programs are heavily subsidized by mostly borrowed tax dollars. Education is good but at some point simple basic priorities have to be set. I'm pretty sure the money trees have died off.
Having said this I do agree that in an advanced and wealthy society like ours that higher education shouldn't be reserved for the sons and daughters of wealthy people. There should be no barriers to post secondary if they can get the marks. We waste billions on crooked initiatives and cover ups. How many kids could we have educated with ADSCAM, Ornge, Gas plants and on and on........

Degree are becoming necessary, the problem though is us. We feel they are.We judge people by their pedigrees, not their abilities.

The last couple sentences yup. The province takes in more than enough. Where and how they spend or blow it.

Saw a frasier institute study yesterday. With Ms Wynne new tax on the rich and JTs new tax on the rich. Those in the highest brackets now pay...sorry donate 53%. The typical stiff around 43%.

[JBen]

Perfect example.
Anyone think this child (Or her father) will get any kind of relief or help, let alone be in a position to put her through Uni?
not sure how his ex will come up with the damages.

2 ruined lives, an 8 year old who if she doesn't get a lot of help now (expensive that, paid $120/hr for my one daughters) will fall between the cracks. http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...a-36-day-trial
But hey he earns and 100k, and can afford to be taxed to the teeth (let alone "Hydro).

Me I was lucky, despite "problems" the Ex and I kept our legal bills to a minimum.

50% of society will get divorced. That doesn't include common law, or those who separate and never file the divorce papers.
Oddly enough, money is cited as one leading cause.
How many kids these days are sold dreams of white picket fences, corporate ladders, 2,000 square foot homes and the way there is rushing off to University/College, often racking up quite a bit of debt..Come out, get married, have kids. All of them

Then find "themselves" in their 30s in a field or career that doesn't make them happy, and married to a person they don't really love or know anymore?

Probably around 50%

Life happens.
And the left is killing the middle class

[trimmer21]

Perfect example.
Anyone think this child (Or her father) will get any kind of relief or help, let alone be in a position to put her through Uni?
not sure how his ex will come up with the damages.

2 ruined lives, an 8 year old who if she doesn't get a lot of help now (expensive that, paid $120/hr for my one daughters) will fall between the cracks. http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...a-36-day-trial
But hey he earns and 100k, and can afford to be taxed to the teeth (let alone "Hydro).

Me I was lucky, despite "problems" the Ex and I kept our legal bills to a minimum.

50% of society will get divorced. That doesn't include common law, or those who separate and never file the divorce papers.
Oddly enough, money is cited as one leading cause.
How many kids these days are sold dreams of white picket fences, corporate ladders, 2,000 square foot homes and the way there is rushing off to University/College, often racking up quite a bit of debt..Come out, get married, have kids. All of them

Then find "themselves" in their 30s in a field or career that doesn't make them happy, and married to a person they don't really love or know anymore?

Probably around 50%

Life happens.
And the left is killing the middle class

Stuff like that,though,JBen,is just l-i-f-e. Expecting a country's tax base to pay for every ill of society in the form of a university education is just plain wrong-headed thinking on every level. There's no way that would ever be sustainable. Can't you just imagine what that would like after the academic socialists that run the education system ever got their hands on the taxpayers wallet? I shudder to think.

[JBen]

Exactly what I mean Trimmer.
Its life and it happens. Be it divorce, or job loss, or a bad enough car accident, or a kid that hits a big enough speed bump.

When your left with say 15% of your income after taxes, housing, food, clothing. And these are middle class numbers. It doesn't leave much disposable income. And because your not the needy, or disadvantaged.

Too bad, so sad thanks for playing. That cop above? Divorce is bad enough, 500,000 legal bills? Not sure how the ex will 130,000 in awarded damages, can't squeeze blood from stone. And she also sounds vindictive enough to declare bankruptcy.....

Not sure how he can pay to put his daughter through Uni (And she's going to need professional help and it aint cheap)...

But he can pay for others kids.

Heres another one.
Assuming we all get severance packages. And assuming "mine" is what is deemed "common law". Well the tax man is going to rape me. Who knows how long I might be unemployed...

"luckily" for me, Im ok and my perspective on life is very different.
Most aren't in my shoes.

Quite a number of my colleagues might not see a penny for months. They like everyone else have kids, mortgages, etc, etc.
/wonders how many tax dollars they have chipped in over the years.
And now.

Too bad, so sad your middle class

[terrym]

Stuff like that,though,JBen,is just l-i-f-e. Expecting a country's tax base to pay for every ill of society in the form of a university education is just plain wrong-headed thinking on every level. There's no way that would ever be sustainable. Can't you just imagine what that would like after the academic socialists that run the education system ever got their hands on the taxpayers wallet? I shudder to think.

Very good point. Universities today have eliminated debate and are run by left wing administrations. To give that group even more standing and funding would slowly erode this country. I do feel that underprivileged kids who want to succeed shouldn't be held back by lack of money. Not sure how to solve that problem and unfortunately it will be addressed for strictly political gain as always.

[JBen]

Assuming we all get severance packages. And assuming "mine" is what is deemed "common law". Well the tax man is going to rape me. Who knows how long I might be unemployed...

And another.
I'm 52, the likely hood of me finding a similar job are slim and none. Many other jobs in my industry Im way over qualified for. Im also up against thousands of people in their 20s and 30s trying to "get their feet in the door". The law says employers can't discriminate me based on my age...

Reality....that thing called the real world ivory tower types don't live in...says
good luck.

Irony
Even though I'm considering it putting myself through 2-3years of Uni to do something entirely different.....Not sure it's financially feasible, will depend my severance (if/when) and what's left after the taxes. Unemployed, life things, kids that need me, bills...

But hey, I can pay for others

[terrym]

The timing on that article is spooky. A friend of mine has been going through the same thing. The only difference is both he and his wife are cops and make the same money with same benefits/pensions. There was no adultery on either side she just "fell out of love". A year after the split he finds that women basically line up for him as many would love to have a cop's pay cheque to live off of. That drives the ex wife insane and they are now blowing thousands on lawyers. Basically she didn't want him anymore but the thought of him moving on makes her crazy.
I'm in my 26th year of marriage and like most we have had our speed bumps but consider myself a very lucky and happy man. I think the younger generation are far too quick to throw in the towel and run to the lawyers.

[JBen]

[COLOR=#333333]are far too quick to throw in the towel and run to the lawyers.

Don't know about that Terry. Divorced myself, the reasons and how like most is a long story.
I'm curious. You have kids right? A daughter? Im raising my girls to do and be whoever they want, money (for some reason we all feel we need to make 80k to be happy), careers, more...its a mirage.

If either of my girls end up unhappy for any reason. Their jobs/career, their marriage.
Do what you want and makes you happy. I don't give 2 Shytes about $$ (for myself anyways). Used to many, many years ago.

Wouldn't you tell your daughter the same?
I don't begrudge my ex at all. She's still with her boss and happy.