EBR Proposal 012-8104;8105

[JBen]

Morning Mike.
2nd cup of coffee in front of me and reading that report, so far its a good read.

Please don't twist my words Mike, and I would hope you don't "misunderstand", because the fact is I'm looking at the big picture. Conservation of all species, not looking at a vacuum, whats best for the entire ecosystem. Moose, Deer, rabbits, Fox, Beaver and more. What's "immaterial" is whether M/D numbers today are below what some think they should be, or roughly where "they should be". Lets go with your preposition, accept it without question. Deer numbers in C Ontario are where they should be.

Does logic not then say, predator numbers should be kept roughly where they are today as well. And thats ignoring the fact that for the past 15 years, Bear and Coyote have exploded into the area. And theres little natural checks. They are apex predators after all.................What fuzzy logic says further bans are needed. No, at best predator numbers should remain fairly stable/static......Not intentionally set up for expansion.

So
if preys number are where they "should be" (which is arguable) having been trending down
If predators numbers have been on the uptick and theres nothing to suggest thats going to change. In fact the opposite given Coyote expansion ( a non native species) and the propensity for cross breeding.
If studies show mortality from hunting is a non factor

What on gods green earth warrants more bans..A simple question that no-one can answer.

And all of that also ignores the jaws of the anvil wildlife in Ontario is in, between unchecked growth/expansion of Predators in C Ontario and Urban Sprawl in the S.

[JBen]

Some excerpts, interpret however one wishes
[COLOR=#ff0000]The deer population declined again in the 1960s, suffered major mortality in the early 1970s, and has never recovered; deer are essentially absent from the present day Algonquin landscape in winter.

The Beaver population has, however, declined sharply since the mid-1970s

Of coarse, deer and beaver disappearing from the park in the 70s, co-incidentally the same time wolves went on the rise........has nothing to do with it, it's other forces.
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[COLOR=#ff0000]The resettlement distribution of ungulates in centralCanada is poorly understood, largely because bonedeteriorates rapidly in the acidic soils of the CanadianShield (Reid 1988). It is widely believed, however, thatprior to European contact and the opening of the forests,deer did not range in Ontario north of approximatelythe location of Hwy 7, which is approximately 160 kmsouth of the centre of the Park

Thanks for supporting my argument, which no-one today wants to consider. No one today wants to look forward and think about "tomorrow", be pro-active, rather than re-active. What urban expansion around the GTA is doing to ALL species. Especially, or more-so today than ever, because wildlife really can't go East or West anymore. Just North. And the explosion in Urban Sprawl these days is insane (see just the wide swaths of destruction the 407 is leaving).

So once again, history looks to repeat itself.
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By the way Mike, that report basically agrees with everything we've said. Where it differs only is the opinion that Wolves and Coyotes should be protected as a result. And worse, broaden the area, make it larger rather than try to keep it "contained", stable.

[JBen]

One last thought.

By 'that" reports own admission: Deer, Moose and Beaver are the main source of food for wolves.
~They are all down substantially since the 70s in C Ontario.

By "that" reports own admission, growth below #7 sent all manor of wildlife fleeing north.
~Today, the expansion to the East of Toronto (directly south of the region being discussed) having exhausted the West and North (up to Barrie/Orilla now) is insane


No-where in "that" report does it talk about the invasion and explosion of Coyotes added to the mix.
No-where in "that" report does it talk about disappearing Grouse/Rabbit and Fox................

So what fuzzy logic is being used to argue, that reducing the territory all non predators can go to for "safe havens" is sound? What insanity is being used to argue, that rather than provide soft landings......no lets do the opposite, make the anvil even larger....One might hope such smart scientist could have learned from history the first time around.

Create jaws of a steel trap.
Un controlled predators pushing them South in the North and Urban sprawl pushing them North in the south.
nowhere to go

[MikePal]

Please don't twist my words Mike, and I would hope you don't "misunderstand"

Morning John...good to see you got some of your old mojo back....

Not twisting your words, a direct quote....as you see in the report..it is all about the numbers...whether specific or general.

Remember in the EBR initial statement..it clearly says there is concern for the wolf population so it needs to have intervention. That is within the mandate of the MNR..it's their job.

As a result of the species evaluation assessment by the Committee on the Status of Species at Risk in Ontario (COSSARO), the Algonquin Wolf (formerly referred to as Eastern Wolf) has been re-classified from ‘Special Concern’ to ‘Threatened’ status under the Endangered Species Act, 2007 (ESA).

To help support the protection and recovery of Algonquin Wolf, it is proposed that hunting and trapping of wolf and coyote be prohibited in three additional core areas where Algonquin Wolf is known to occur.

So the decision has been made to further protect the Wolf (?)..as part of the bigger picture...they want/need a healthy wolf population for a balance ecosystem.

Now you may want to ask....with the concerns for other species like the Moose...how many hunters complaining about the impact on the moose population as a result of this... will forgo filling their calf tags this year....

So once again, history looks to repeat itself.

Yup as does the cyclical lifecycle of most creatures in Nature....most of the population summaries in that report are roller coasters

By the way Mike, that report basically agrees with everything we've said. Where it differs only is the opinion that Wolves and Coyotes should be protected as a result. And worse, broaden the area, make it larger rather than try to keep it "contained", stable.

Yes and it also provides the facts and reasons that the herd numbers have fluctuated thru the decades and what was done to try and reverse some trends. It's a balancing act for sure.

[JBen]

Curious Mike, what concern for them?
Hunting isn't touching them. their own admission
Their numbers are up and growing.........this is inarguable..

While they talk about Urban sprawl and encroachment...its marginal at "worst" in that area. If Urban Sprawl is a threat to anything, its to the prey species in the food chain, which is sending them north in droves...right into a hammer how convenient, a man made, created steady source of food....Atleast until......

is the concern dwindling prime source of food (M/D/B)?
Well heres a good idea, lets unnaturally send them more food.

Mike not sure why but you are completely, willfully ignoring its NOT natural, until and unless we cull the human race in the South...Its only going to get worse for everything low on the food chain.......
And ramping up, and utterly protecting the predators is pure insanity. Nuts, idiocy,


It will never be a natural balance. Good god Mike it doesn't take rocket science to see that if you create a steel trap..............and do keep in mind Mike, today unlike "yesterday" Coyotes..........So lets recap shall we.
Prime food sources are down.....veryfying what some of us have argued....
Predators are on the rise..
And the numerous species of prey are being pushed north.


And re your last quote.
Hows it working? Its not.

[MikePal]

Now you may want to ask....with the concerns for other species like the Moose...how many hunters complaining about the impact on the moose population as a result of this... will forgo filling their calf tags this year....

What no comment ???... LOL

[JBen]

I might say the same to you ( I know that "no comment" wasn't directed at me, but could ask the same of you)
And here's more

Look at map of Ontario.
Draw a ring around APP. A ring where the predators (all of them) are untouchable by man
From the South man is displacing a lot of wildlife..Where's it mainly heading? North
From the NE (Ottawa) man is displacing a lot of wildlife..Where do you think its heading..W and SW...into the ring?
Look East of the GTA and sprawl occurring now along the 401...Where do you think everything is going

Towards the middle....that ring?
As I mentioned Mike, right from the get go.

Coyotes are not native and are exploding. Everywhere..
Call the remnants of wolves in APP whatever you want. They are Coyotes mutts, not wolves. One wonders why they are getting special protection when they are nothing special and are exploding.

Be that as it may, theres nothing natural about it.
If man hadn't pushed Deer for the wolves to gorge on in the 1800s and early 1900s, their food would have run low, or out. And the wolves would have fled North in search of more food. Back then, it was open season on Wolves. However once they were protected in the 70s, their numbers started growing, albeit they are more Coyote than wolf.

Today, their main source of food (M/D/B) are down substantially from the 70s, when they were abundant. You can argue if you want that allowed them to "recover". To the point today where their numbers up and growing.

Curious Mike. if their primary food is down substantially, should they naturally be going down? So why are we not only protecting them, some want to enlarge that ring. One might argue, in the absence of Coyotes and if man wasn't unnaturally sending them more and more food....Naturally, there wouldn't be all that many of them.

you know, carrying capacity?

So why would you argue an ever larger ring in the middle squeezing the food chain, while the outer ring is concurrently squeezing the food chain in....And today theres this inconvenient truth of Coyotes.

In short Mike, unless you can find an answer that culls the human race in the south...........and the answer if one seeks some semblance of balance for the future, no major man made crashes or disease isn't by creating an even larger inner ring where the predators are untouchable and fed of steady diet of everything.....

[SK33T3R]

well here's another pic from june this year. This is in unit 50.

there are actually 3 wolves surrounding this cow. there was no calf with her.

probably bears or these same wolves already got the calf.

ANYWAY the MNR needs to decide to support hunters and the cash flow from them OR to support an invasive (non-native) species.

from what I've seen so far I'm saddened.

I have a bag of hammers in the garage that's smarter then the MNR policy makers!

[IMG][/IMG]

[JBen]

No qualms here providing some "protections" Skeeter. It could be argued these coyote mutts ( and in truth thats all they all) and if they were called that, and not some romantic "wolf"........#1 "justification" for protecting Coyotes as well? Because these "wolves" look way too much like them.
Funny that.

We could for example look at Yellowstone. See the success, see the problems it's caused. However there are some notable differences. The wolves there are actually wolves, and in fact are keeping the Coyote in check. Here they are Coyote hybrids and no-one is producing data or reports thats suggesting they are checking the advance of coyotes......wonder why, could it be because they are so diluted from grey wolves.........The US DNR is easing restrictions, we for some illogical reason want to further protect both these non native mutts and Coyotes by creating an even larger haven for them/anvil for all prey. Nor does Yellowstone have this problem thats unique to Ontario (aka Urban sprawl thats pushing a lot of all you can eat, lower on the food chain)...Truth is, if we weren't fattening up the residents of APP and surroundings, the wolves would likely be gone anyways.
See Cougars, so if the argument is let them be....Fine, put a fence up so we stop pushing food to them...

Or we could look towards Africa where hunting is banned, and all the problems there. And the few places where all species both prey and predator seem to be doing ok, are those places where big game hunting is supported.

And on and on and on and on.
The only time there are quasi rational/logical arguments for protection is when viewed in vacuums.

Just what threat is it exactly these coyote hybrids are facing?
From predation?
From other species?
From hunting?
From Urban Sprawl..Um if anything thats keeping them going vis a vie being more of a threat to species on the menu, and so the answer is make it worse?

Nice pic btw

[terrym]

As long as you have wolves and coyotes the Algonquin will never a threatened species. This is all a veiled attempt to incrementally kill off all forms of sport hunting and trapping.