You are right! Point well taken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Badenoch
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You are right! Point well taken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Badenoch
Well finally some answers. Seems a little extreme on the murder. https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/202...sXfz2zg-TG6-tI
Two guns with serial numbers removed is a good reason to investigate but not cause to bring in the flash bangs and the door kickers. This is something that could have been easily addressed with a phone call or a peaceful visit from the CFO. I know from personal experience that government gun records are not always 100 percent accurate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman
The family of a renowned gunsmith who died after officers raided his workshop is suing the Toronto Police Service for $23 million, alleging the"unlawful" act led to Rodger Kotanko's "wrongful death."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...lice-1.6317788
Another news media:
https://www.simcoereformer.ca/news/l...-civil-lawsuit
* defendants = officers
“The defendants had no reasonable basis for or lawful authority for performing the search warrant upon the premises which results in Rodger’s death,” the statement of claim alleges. “The fashion in which the defendants executed the raid was a gross and negligent misuse of power.”
Highlights of the statement-of-claim, which runs to 32 pages, include:
- The lawsuit alleges there was more than $20,000 in a safe in Kotanko’s workshop at the time of the raid. The statement of claim says the money was missing once Toronto police vacated the scene.
- The lawsuit says Toronto police had Kotanko’s home under surveillance from Nov. 2 until the search warrant was executed around noon the next day. Toronto police allegedly “increased the likelihood that Rodger would be badly injured (or) killed” by allowing him to enter his shop, where there were guns, after returning home from grocery shopping with his wife. Smitiuch wants to know why police did not apprehend Kotanko in his driveway when he pulled in.
- Many want to know the identity of the “alleged customer” who was with Kotanko at the time he was shot. The family says this person – who was unknown to Kotanko – called 10 p.m. the night before to arrange an appointment. Smitiuch says the family has yet to be informed as to the identity of this person. The statement-of-claim alleges police “allowed an alleged customer to be put in harm’s way and potentially interfere with the safe execution of the raid.”
- The statement of claim says the police officers involved “were incompetent to carry out the duties of police officers and lacked the reasonable care, skill, ability and training necessary to perform the duties of a police officer and ought not to have been assuming the responsibilities and obligations of their positions. They had a history of violent, uncontrollable rage and had unlawfully assaulted innocent victims before, for which they were previously disciplined.”
- The statement of claim alleges the officers listed, along with Proctor, “suffered from psychological and/ or psychiatric problems rendering them unfit to be police officers.”
- The statement of claim says Kotanko’s family – as a consequence of the defendants’ actions – has suffered a wide range of psychological symptoms following his death. These include “depression, anxiety, nervousness and irritability, mood disorders, insomnia and sleep disturbances, nightmares and flashbacks.”
- The statement of claim criticizes the defendants for allegedly failing to co-ordinate their action with the Norfolk OPP “when they knew or ought to have known that co-ordination would have been beneficial for planning and tactical reasons and would have minimized the potential for harm to Rodger and the officers involved in the raid.”
The statement of claim has been filed in the Ontario Superior Court of Justice.
Kotanko’s death is the subject of a probe by the Special Investigations Unit, the civilian agency that investigates police shootings.
Due to that investigation, a Toronto police spokesperson said that, while they have received the statement of claim, it would be inappropriate to comment.
I’ve read that the officer responsible for the shots fired will not speak to the SIU and won’t release his notes. Doesn’t this go against the idea of transparency? How can we expect the system to get better?
It seems the police became judge, jury and executioner. Heads will roll, to what extent will be determined. If I was the one in charge of this operation I would be shaking in my boots right now because life is going to become a lot more difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdbuff
Charter rights trump transparency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdbuff
That seems to contradict your opinion on vaccinations, doesn't it. You are a very conflicted person.Quote:
Originally Posted by Badenoch
There is no conflict whatsoever. There are no Charter rights infringed by any issues related to vaccinations or the lack thereof until which time a court rules on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
In 1996, it was determined that mandatory vaccines were an infringement on the chart of rights. Nothing has changed related to this since then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Badenoch
What the provinces are questioning now is if that infringement can be justified, which would allow them to go ahead with mandates.
The fact it will be before the courts...is proof they have been infringed upon....the question is, was it illegal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Badenoch
The courts will no doubt decide if there was an infringement, and if so was it justified. There are many cases where courts have decided there was infringement, but that it was justified and allowed to stand.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
This thread took a hard right turn !!
There are actually no Charter Rights that cannot be taken away, period, here is the first section which allows any and all "rights" to be taken away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Badenoch
"1 The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society."
I've tune in a bit late, I recalled the episode, and everyone seems to have done due diligent in examining what has happen. However I've not seen or perhaps have missed where anyone has raised the issue of why the Toronto Police may have wanted the gunsmith dead, so they set up something of a legal approach to kill him. Maybe the Toronto Police were attempting to cover up some activity of theirs that the gunsmith new about. Who was on the hook, or what might have been done that the Toronto Police may have attempted to cover up by removing the gunsmith. Had he done something for them, that they didn't wanted anyone to find out about? What can I say I have a suspicious mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut
You also watch too much TV !!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
With the apparent lack of information from the shooters side of the story, we can only guess at what happened, but police actions in this case are very suspect with what info is available and not becoming any clearer with time.
John
And just how many search warrants have TPS served in the last 5 years where they brought there own ambulance as part of the response team???
John
No doubt they'll get a hefty settlement from the Police Services....wonder if in Ontario they can also go after the officer who pulled the trigger in a Civil suit .
You mean they cover stuff like this on T.V. in fiction or on reality shows? Something is awful suspicious here police on T.V. when they go to serve a warrant don't bust in with guns blazing, quickly identify their intended target with others present and take it out. Someone appears to have been able to quickly identify the man, dispatched him??? On T.V. they don't do that unless they are met with some resistance before they enter. In this case there doesn't appear to have been any approach resistance.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
You done stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut
Let's put the train back on the tracks. Looks like TPS is being sued for $23M
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...lice-1.6317788
The CCFR talks about the shooting today too on their show.
https://www.oodmag.com/community/sho...=1#post1188017
Until all the facts are in everything is simple conjecture. Unless anyone has inside info all I know is what the news media is saying. I must say tho that some of the comments on what could have happened by the members in here, are very reasonable possibilities. Time will tell.
from the Toronto Star ..........https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/202...pXJVKw1e1QGSbU scrubbed serial numbers and he was the "former" owner OK, the gun registry was to be destroyed.......can we trust the Liberals, police, This was a witch hunt attitude of Toronto police using a Toronto gang tactical practices in rural Ontario, where they had no jurisdiction.......Hope the family wins their case, but it will cost each of us .
The hand gun registry was never destroyed and the TPS were not out of their "jusisdiction". Every Police Constable ,no matter what service they work for,is sworn in by a Judge (Her Majesty the Queen in the right of the Province of Ontario). So much erroneous assumptions being made,we really need to wait for the evidence to emerge and verify every scrap of it as infuriating as it is with the incredibly awful optics as they appear.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDH
Unfortunately, all the facts will never be in....... The authorities will cover this up and save they're own backsides as per usualQuote:
Originally Posted by grumpygeezer
That's the same feeling I'm getting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goosechsr
https://www.siu.on.ca/en/news_template.php?nrid=7404Quote:
Originally Posted by Goosechsr
If the authorities are covering things up the SIU appear to be uncovering plenty.
One must really question the time frame of these investigations...after 6 months they have "reasonable grounds to believe" the officer should be charged with committing a crime. Not a very efficient or effective process.
Not to mention the Officer was on full salary all that time.
Lawyers paid by the hour rule the justice system. !!!
Quote:
Mississauga, ON (14 January, 2022) ---
The Director of the Special Investigations Unit, Joseph Martino, has reasonable grounds to believe that an Ontario Provincial Police (OPP) officer committed criminal offences in relation to the shooting death of a 24-year-old man in Chatham-Kent last July.
The investigation found that on July 7, 2021, the Chatham-Kent OPP responded to a call about a gasoline theft. Officers located the vehicle believed to be involved travelling westbound on Highway 401 and followed it. The vehicle ended up in the ditch dividing the highway. One of the officers approached the vehicle, and his firearm discharged and shot the driver. The man died in hospital...
The length of time is frustrating but the SIU investigations are thorough and detailed. Some of the timing such as ballistic tests and laboratory analysis would be beyond their control. Here is a link to a report released last week from an incident in September that gives an idea on the detail that goes into their investigations. I would expect the Kotanko matter to be more complex than this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
https://siu.on.ca/en/directors_repor....php?drid=1772
While I agree, if the incident was complex and forensics, ballistics, etc were required, but even then, 6 months would be dragging it out....lawyers must be involved :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Badenoch
But come on...a case like this, basically a traffic stop and the officer shot the driver...in front of another officer. I wonder if they had dash/body cams.
The more I read these SIU reports,the more I think the police services would be better off spending more of the SIU budget on putting more officers on the streets.
It sounds like they spend most of the time trying to get to the truth based on the two officers' statements...if you catch my drift.
edit add: ..Holy Crap:Quote:
With respect to full-blown SIU investigations, namely, those resulting in Director’s Reports or charges (see below), the average length of case was 187.59 days, down from 201.79 days the year before.
Just so I understand....... The OPP respond to a gasoline theft - shoplifting - Locate the SUSPECTED vehicle and said vehicle - ENDS UP - in the center median where the officers approach and a gun is discharged killing the driver. It takes the SIU almost 7 months to think there may be some wrongdoing here ? Meanwhile we pay the officer full salary, we pay the SIU members and we will pay the lawyer, and judicial system.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Seems all above board to me
There's a difference between thinking there may be "some wrongdoing here" and proving it in a court of law. Police unions hire excellent lawyers to defend their members and it is better that the SIU take the time required to build a case that won't get overturned than let a bad cop go free because of a rushed or slipshod investigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goosechsr
No charges recommended. Full details here:
https://siu.on.ca/en/directors_repor....php?drid=1856
Not surprised in the least.... Sounds like its a rap. :(
Better get some popcorn on…..
As I said earlier...they knew the day this happened what occurred, officers and witnesses saw it happen. No complex ballistics or crime scene investigation was required, someone should be asking why it took the SIU 3 months to release this report.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
the short of it..They shot a guy, 4 times while he was seated holding a gun he was working on, with no magazine in it and nowhere in the report was it found to be loaded.Quote:
In the workshop with the Complainant at the time was a client - CW #2. CW #2 had recently purchased a Norinco 1911-A1 compact .45 calibre pistol, and had brought it in to the Complainant for a repair. His intention had been to drop it off and return for it later, but the Complainant convinced him to wait as the repair would only take about 15 minutes. CW #2 provided the Complainant the gun in a gun case, and observed as the Complainant performed the repair. The Complainant was putting the pistol together again – the magazine had not been reinserted in the firearm but it looked like a complete gun – when he heard sound from behind him.
The sound was coming from the approach of FEU officers – the SO, followed closely by WO #4. The officers called out, “Police, search warrant,” and, “Put your hands up,” as they neared and entered the workshop’s pedestrian door. CW #2 surmised that it was the police and raised his hands.
With their guns drawn, the SO and WO #4 quickly turned their attention to the Complainant, seated by a workbench to the left of the pedestrian door. The Complainant did not raise his hands at the officers’ repeated direction. Within seconds of their entry, he reached with his right hand towards the workbench, retrieved CW #2’s firearm, and turned with it in the officers’ directionas they yelled at him to “drop the gun”. The SO fired his gun – a Glock .40 calibre semi-automatic – four times in rapid succession, striking the Complainant and knocking him off his chair onto his back. The time was about 12:15 p.m.
Sounds more like he was startled by the noise, turned towards the sound, while holding the gun he was working on and the officer shot him.
Have to see wait now to see what the family's civil suit draws out, where we will hear what the witness CW#2 saw and maybe a judge will be able dig thru the subterfuge.
JUST AMAZING! I NOW SUPPORT ALL POLICE ACTIONS UNCONDITIONALLY WITHOUT QUESTION!
Yes, this is sarcasm. It is getting real in Canada.
John
Better read it again . Police announce their presence, enter the building, witness sees them, realized who they are, complies with order to raise hands, Kotanko doesn’t raise hands, but reaches for the gun and turns towards the police. Police can’t wait to see, or make sure a gun is loaded when they are confronted with one, as you seem to suggest. Question is, what was Kotanko thinking ??Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
And yes, there will be civil ramifications…regardless , there always are !
Funny I interrupt it to mean he was working on a gun, they startled him (not seeing them come in), he turned in his seat still holding the gun and was shot by an office 4 times.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
And..."seated by a workbench to the left of the pedestrian door." Means he was twisting to the left , with the gun in the right hand, there would be no intent to point the gun, it just traveled with him in his twisting motion.
He may have misjudged the danger to that motion, but no need to put 4 slugs put into him for it.
A good lawyer will have a field day with this report.
There's no question many things could have been done in advance that would have prevented this tragedy but based on the testimony of two witnesses the incident itself does not appear to be an unjustified use of force. People who point guns at the police, even unloaded ones, risk getting shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
The family will probably proceed with its civil action but it will be an uphill climb when the SIU has exonerated the officer.
Complainant did not raise his hands at the officers’ repeated direction. Within seconds of their entry, he reached with his right hand towards the workbench, retrieved CW #2’s firearm, and turned with it in the officers’ directionas they yelled at him to “drop the gun”. The SO fired his gun – a Glock .40 calibre semi-automatic – four times
Pretty clear to me. He reached for the gun after the police ordered him to raise his hands….
In the end, it looks like police have the right to yell, confuse and disorient the elderly victim in his own home and then execute him because he does not understand what is happening in a split second. You might see this different but the only 1 who knows for sure how he was feeling or what he might have heard is dead. No answers from him, problem solved.
Yup, I feel the SIU nailed another one. Nothing to see here, onward to N.S. now to clear up some more problems.
John
The officer is behind him over his left shoulder...how was he able to see him, while sitting at the bench, move his right hand to pick up a gun right in front of him. ?Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
The judge and jury will ask those questions...you should be open to the fact the officer was at fault here Rick...because it sure looks like he was trigger happy by the picture the SIU report pictures.
I
That's the rub isn't it...a life long gunsmith and shooter would be hard of hearing, he may have only heard 'noise' and twisted in his chair to see what was going on...Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjyb
At least the SIU report means nothing more than they're covering the officers back and not are pressing charges. It means nothing to a judge and jury..
The SIU says there's no reasonable grounds to lay charges. Surprise!! Next,at the very least,should be a Coroner's Inquest which should examine events leading up to the shooting. The entire thing seems to be a colossal screw up from the get-go. There's no way this should just "go away".
I know from experience, if there’s a charge to be laid, SIU would have laid it. There was a civilian witness(customer) sitting there with him. I’m sure he shed some first hand light on the event…Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
It’s not over…and it’s not just going away! There will be an inquest and civil action. Whether there is a civil trial or not, remains to be seen. Most are settled without…Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Very interesting turn of events-i am wondering, how they will explain-a Licensed and long term gunsmith, who worked close with the Police for many years, knew gun laws and repercussions, would turn "on " a police officer ,pointing a gun at him -while the officer, guns drawn ,was yelling commands at him?
Some interesting info about reason for the search warrant.
https://torontosun.com/pmn/news-pmn/...rio-gunsmith?rQuote:
“Firearms had been recovered in two separate police investigations, including a kidnapping, that were registered to a firearms business owned by the Complainant,” Martino’s report reads. “In neither case had the Complainant, a gunsmith, reported the firearms stolen or missing, and thus it was suspected that he or an associate had illegally traded in firearms.”
And this;
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...-siu-1.6371860Quote:
The whole interaction lasted between five and 10 seconds, the report said. The gun Kotanko was holding wasn't operable at the time, according to the report, but the officer who pulled the trigger wouldn't have known that, according to Martino.
The report states police called for a Norfolk County ambulance as they tried to keep Kotanko alive. The ambulance arrived about 10 minutes later. The family has previously stated police came with their own ambulance.
I would think there is a definite need for an inquest or inquiry of some sort.
The fox explaining what really happened to the chicken.
Years ago, had a car with 4 ways FLY up and by me on the 401 followed by a police car. They turned off at #41, from the overpass I saw the car go south on 41, pull a U turn and start heading north. A cop car came flying off the 401 ramp and T-boned the car,sending it into the ditch and justified as far as I was concerned to end a high-speed chase.
The rub here was the police and media reported that the stolen car rammed the police car and was charged for this as well. I have never seen anyone ram a vehicle with their drivers side door before but I guess it is the same thing as they say about wars, "the victor writes the history books".
I expected this SIU report to start the whitewash and I am not surprised with the result.
Hardwood flooring companies are going to see a slowdown in sales over the next few years as we are going to need more carpets laid so as to sweep this twisted attempt at perverting justice under it.
John
Police:Quote:
Originally Posted by delmer
"Nothing to see move along, evidence,warrant, those pesky illegal firearms, investigation.... not required, move along, we decided it now, move along"
That about sum's it up according to the SIU investigation and CIVILIAN WITNESS reports who were on scene. There was a warrant issue, there were ground to obtain the warrant. Could it have been done better, probably.Quote:
Originally Posted by mosquito
"Within seconds of their entry, Mr. Kotanko reached with his right hand toward the workbench, retrieved a firearm, and pointed it at the officers as they yelled at him to drop the gun. He did not," reads the report.
Then an officer shot Kotanko four times. The whole interaction lasted between five and 10 seconds, the report said.
As expected, lots of questions, lots of second-guessing and finger pointing. Interestingly, the time from police entering the shop to shooting the gunsmith was less than 20 seconds. I wonder if the police bothered to interview the guy ahead of executing the search warrant? No doubt this matter will end up in civil court where the whole event will be dissected second by second. First thing that will happen will be challenging the warrant.
The bottom line here is that even if you believe you are within your rights, don’t challenge police authority except in court. Unfortunately going to court is expensive and the party with more money has the advantage.
The police were investigating a possible gun trafficking offence. They had seized two crime guns, registered to the gunsmith, which had not been reported stolen…alarm bells would have gone off.. Police would not go and interview someone prior to executing a warrant, especially for the offences possibly involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
They acted properly, even to the point of doing a “soft” entry, according to SIU investigators….
I’m not suggesting that they interview the guy while the search team sits outside in their cruisers, but I would think that getting a voluntary statement from the guy at some point to account for the handguns ending up in the wrong hands would have been logical. Are there any details as to what the search was intended to find? I don’t know what the guy was thinking, but pointing a firearm at police is never a good thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Straw poll says............. All ex LEOs believe it was a justified murder, the other 99.7 % of the population think what happened is wrong but the investigation result was expected. Carry on as you were, unless you are now dead.
John
Soft entry with your gun drawn ?? Pointed at his back and then yelling loud enough to startle him and have him turn around quickly with the gun he was working on still in his hand. Then shot him 4 times because you perceived that your life was in danger. The whole entry was mishandled from the get go.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
That's the story a good lawyer is going to tell the jury.
Now you’re just “supposin”!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
That's what the SIU report says and that is what the jury will be told. No supposing... you're just looking at it from a biased point of view.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Here’s what the report actually said….Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
The sound was coming from the approach of FEU officers – the SO, followed closely by WO #4. The officers called out, “Police, search warrant,” and, “Put your hands up,” as they neared and entered the workshop’s pedestrian door. CW #2 surmised that it was the police and raised his hands.
They yelled out, identifying themselves, and their purpose, prior to entering….or just as they entered…
Again, the SIU had the benefit of a civilian witness, who’s evidence mirrored that of the police….
You keep mentioning a jury….what jury are you talking about..
I would think that, in 2022, officers would have body cams while executing search warrants.
I didn’t see any reference to cams in the report.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
Not to take away from the seriousness of this act, has anyone seen anything from the SIU involving the shooting and killing of that little child in the pickup truck just outside Lindsay by the police?
Nope! Cone of silence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerald
ExactlyQuote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
In that, you're probably right Rick..., If a layman like me can see thru the subterfuge of that ridiculous SIU report ..they know they don't stand a chance with this going to a jury and the Toronto Police services will settle long before it goes to court.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
No sweat off their brows, taxpayers will pay and the family will be set for life.
The trigger-happy shooter.... well he'll probably be hanging out as a mall cop at the Eaton's Centre for the rest of his now-finished career.
That seems to be how it's done these days..HaHa.
This is the last piece of information I could find...but its from Nov 2021Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerald
Officers have not agreed to be interviewed, SIU says....
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...date-1.6259667
I might agree with you however the fact that there was a civilian witness makes it hard to lie about what happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
I would love to see that civilian witness under cross examination by a good lawyer!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I am not sure I believe there is even a civilian witness anywhere that is unbiased or uncoerced by police that was involved in this shooting.
The "blue wall of silence" says there was one, but this "uninvolved not a police informant" witness is nowhere to be seen or heard. No police officer involved is even talking. No officer notes have been turned over.
This is a deep pile of BS only allowed by the priveledged for the priveledged.
If protect and serve means eat lead on my own property I do not feel as safe in this country as I should.
These are the guns that the legal eagles in power should be removing, not lawful gun owners.
John
Murder or incompetence? I’m not sure about the civilian witness guy either. I’ve got no experience in search warrants or arrests, but if I was doing this, I would approach the guy with his hands full of groceries outside, rather than the guy with a gun in hand and inside a shop full of ammo and guns. Poorly planned or exactly what they wanted?
It is inaccurate to say "no officer notes have been turned over."Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjyb
https://siu.on.ca/en/directors_repor....php?drid=1856
The civilian witness spoke with investigators. He is under no further obligation to discuss the matter with anyone unless he is called before an inquest or civil trial.Quote:
Materials Obtained from Police Service
Upon request, the SIU obtained and reviewed the following materials and documents from OPP and TPS between November 4, 2021, and March 2, 2022:
TPS Event Details Report;
Notes-WO #3;
Notes-WO #1;
Notes-WO #2;
Notes-WO #5;
Notes-WO #4;
Notes-WO #6;
Notes-WO #7;
If you don't want to "eat lead" on your own property don't point guns at police officers.
The shooter;Assumptions made .....Quote:
Subject Official (SO) Declined interview and to provide notes, as is the subject official’s legal right
Quote:
"On this record, there is little doubt that the SO would have felt the same way." "
Quote:
While the SIU is without first-hand evidence of the SO’s state of mind at the time the shots were fired
But without the shooter's sworn testimony, it's all assumptions and conjecture.Quote:
I am persuaded on the basis of the prevailing circumstances that he fired his weapon to protect himself
Sure the witness will cooperate fully with the SIU:
But he did allow the SIU a look at his dashcam video footage...probably not a wise thing for the SIU to use in a trial either.Quote:
Following the shooting, the officers escorted CW #2 out of the workshop, placed him on the ground and handcuffed him to the back.
Too many assumptions, too many conjectures by investigators. They won't take this debacle it to trial.Quote:
The SIU obtained and reviewed the following records from other sources:
Security video footage from a nearby residence; Dashcam Footage from CW #2 (the witness);
Like I said early, my bet is on this will be settled out of court. ...an admission of guilt.
You would be wrong….again !Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
HaHa..it'll be a battle of common sense vs. blind loyalty...Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Nope, not “blind”. More like “experienced”…!Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
If I was surprised by strange people yelling at me on my property who are not in uniform CLAIMING to be police, when I know and trust many of the local officers and they are not among these armed strangers I do not myself believe that blind obedience is the first thing that comes to mind.
I am not a sheep but an individual with a mind that does still do its' own work, not sure what my immediate response would have been in this situation.
Piss poor execution of a warrant and an execution of a law abiding individual, unless ex LEOs have already convicted RK and decided he deserved 4 bullets to silence him.
John
Nope. No cone of silence just about anybody with a computer can go on the SIU website and see the updates, the last being Nov/21.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
OTHER NEWS RELEASES RELATED TO CASE 20-PFD-324
SIU Investigating Fatal Incident in City of Kawartha Lakes
SIU Updates Investigation into Fatal Incident in City of Kawartha Lakes
Update: Man Involved in City of Kawartha Lakes Shooting Succumbs to Injuries
Understanding the Process of the SIU’s City of Kawartha Lakes Investigation
Update Regarding Kawartha Lakes Investigation
Evidence Indicates Deaths of Father and Son in Kawartha Lakes a Result of Police Gunfire
Update on Kawartha Lakes Investigation
The only person you can express an opinion for is yourself, you do not speak for 99.7% of the population, as most all of them have expressed no opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjyb
No its about EVIDENCE, forensic evidence ,eye witness evidence. There was sufficient information to obtain a search warrant which was presented to a justice under oath. The Police were legally placed on the scene, the execution of the warrant may not have been the best nor the actions of the deceased. The best witness would have been the customer in the shop and if his account was way off some officers may already have been charged. IMHOQuote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Really Rick...you've shot a 70 yr old man on his own property, working in his shop and beat being charged ..doesn't sound like it's hard to do ?Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
The inability of the SIU to produce a report that recommends charges laid against an officer is dismall....
Facts 2020-2021:
I also read, the fact is over 30% of charges against officer are withdrawn before trial...Quote:
Charge Cases
Criminal charges were laid by the SIU Director in 12 cases, against a total of 14 officers, representing 3.0% of the 397 cases that were closed for the fiscal year.
Total Closed Cases
70.8% (281 cases) of total cases closed resulted in no charges (Director’s Report cases), 26.2% were closed by memo or terminated, 3% resulted in charges laid against the officers.
Doesn't look like holding bad cops' accountable to the public is a big part of the SIU's mandate, does it ?
from: https://www.siu.on.ca/en/annual_report_2020.php#s_13
When did I say that ??? More “supposin”…..Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Or it could be they acted as they should off.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty or is it sling mud till it sticks.
To me it is pretty simple , though sad. He was told to put his gun down several times; he refused to. When you are told to put your gun down ..... do it!
More info comes to light …
https://torontosun.com/opinion/colum...slain-gunsmith
Second last sentence from the article......Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
[COLOR=#191919]If the SIU’s findings are accurate then all we know for sure is that his decisions, his actions, have led to several tragedies, including his own death.
There are many ways to write up a story
You forgot to post this part ..….. With four guns unaccounted for from Kotanko’s stockpile, police worry there will be a future tragedy like the one that befell Caden Francis.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
I guess with him being dead, he wont be able to help answer to those allegations :(Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Nice, now ex LEOs are blaming future crimes on a 70 year old man executed by police who is supposed to be innocent because there might be missing property that could be used in a future crime. It never ends, just keep piling it on a dead man and hope something sticks.
John
It's a legitimate concern. There were four guns missing that Kotanko was responsible for two of which were involved in serious crimes. When police came to ask about them he reached for a pistol and pointed it at the officers.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
It's entirely possible Rodger wasn't the saint everyone claims he was.
This is highly questionable. No video or audio recording exists. The witnesses were given time to get their stories together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharon
We don't know that CW#2 interview confirms the narrative, perhaps it's simply does NOT contradict it.
What would someone remember from police bursting in, shooting someone in front of you in the head, drugging you to the ground and cuffing you?
I can guarantee they won't remember many details, especially looking the the police, not the victim.
Did the shooter yell police before or after shooting? Did they yell at all?
However, I don't blame the shooter, I blame everyone who planned this sh.t show.
The policy are incompetent. Just another branch of a dysfunctional government.
I find it absolutely ridiculous that all police involved did not have body cams running during the operation. I would have thought it would be a no-brainer for operations like this.
No but his wife probably has a good idea of what was going on in the business and you can bet your last dollar she will be asked lots of questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
Not everyone's wife knows all their business. Heck I no things about my father that my mother doesn't business wise.
The only thing my wife knows about my side things are my primary job. Heck she doesn't even know what I earn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
Those cams would definitely go a long to preventing all these theories and conspiracies. It would help the public regain some trust.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenelon
What gun shop have you been in that didn’t have security cameras inside and out
Apparently this one. SIU had security cam footage from a neighbour, as well as dash cam footage from the civilian witness’ vehicle. No mention of any security cam at the address.Quote:
Originally Posted by js4fn
If I was up to nefarious activity in my own business I probably would not want to record myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
If she decides to divorce you she will know pretty fast. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
Nope. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
I must have missed that post. I haven’t seen anyone blaming anyone here. But, carry on….like the song says…”haters gonna hate”Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjyb
I can recall gunsmith shops that didn't have security cameras. If there were security cameras at Kotanko's shop there would be no point covering it up as the family and by extension their legal counsel would know about them.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
The SIU report is an extremely simplistic response to a very complex situation.
Seems like it’s all hinged on the civilian witness that has been “ handled “ pretty much only by they shooters colleagues.
Wouldn’t be the first time a witness was encouraged to see things differently by police or crown.
Part of the problem here is the archaic way police handle business these days.
It seems the only tools they have are scaring people and or violence to get people to do what they want.
When the only tool you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail.
This type of “ soft entry “ which really has nothing soft about it and dynamic and no knock warrants are excellent examples of what is mentioned above.
It doesn’t just put criminals at risk but civilians in the residences have been shot by accident by police and police have been shot while executing them.
I remember one in Montreal with a no knock and the resident shot and killed an officer and beat the charges because they didn’t announce themselves.
Also 2 RCMP shot at the door in Alberta.
Once it’s done, even if someone is accidentally shot while executing the warrant.
The SIU won’t charge the officer because it was an accident while executing there duties and not criminally responsible and the department won’t change the archaic way of doing things.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It has been several times mentioned here-that after the shooting, the witness(key person to know the "outsider"side of this whole sad story)was sat down by the police and placed in handcuffs.
With few of our members here,with policing background-can someone contemplate on this,rather interesting move?
Is this a standard practice- someone just witnessing (as an innocent bystander)the likely most violent and tragic chapter in his life-to make him sit on the ground(awkward at best)and place in handcuffs?
I would say the witness was handcuffed for safety reason's for the officers involved and thus was detained as part of the search process. I have been away from the street a long time, but with the proliferation of weapons today especially guns and it being a gun shop, seems pretty prudent. Most often on the dozens of search warrants I have been involved in everybody inside a searched premises would have been cuffed, again for safety reasons, to prevent loss of evidence. Places that are searched generally do not contain nice people and depending on where you are searching, places like a good crack house, you might end up with many arrest's not even associated with the actual search warrant.Quote:
Originally Posted by gbk
People inside wanted on bench warrants from other area's or jurisdictions, stolen property...
Could also be that the witness was also the original informant and handcuffing him made it look good?
Trust and accountability, two words that I personally feel do not apply as they should or used to in the police services of Canada anymore. This is a broad brush stroke but over the years I have seen a steady erosion of citizen rights, and am not sure why or how it can be corrected.
Many might feel different, but we are losing their right to peacefully state our opinion without punshment.
John
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/202...ce-allege.html
Quote:
Killed Ontario gunsmith trafficked gun used in Scarborough teen’s murder, police sources allege
By Wendy GillisStaff Reporter
Jim RankinStaff Reporter
Mon., March 7, 20224 min. read
Toronto police allege the gun used to kill a 16-year-old boy in Scarborough last summer was traced back to Ontario gunsmith Rodger Kotanko — and officers intended to charge him with criminal negligence causing death for trafficking the gun, police sources told the Star.
Instead, Kotanko, 70, was fatally shot in a raid on his Simcoe, Ont., workshop last November. Last week, Ontario’s police watchdog, the Special Investigations Unit (SIU), cleared the unnamed officer who killed Kotanko, saying that officer should not be criminally charged because he fired to “protect himself” after Kotanko refused to drop a gun he had pointed at police.
Officers with Toronto police’s Gun and Gang Task Force went to Kotanko’s residence, near Port Dover, on Nov. 3 to execute a search warrant, believing the skilled gunsmith had milled off the serial numbers on two restricted handguns registered to his company and then illegally transferred their ownership. Police allege the guns ultimately ended up in the hands of two young Toronto residents.
According to two police sources who spoke to the Star on condition of anonymity, police say one of those guns was used in the July 3, 2021, slaying of Caden Francis, 16, who was shot to death near Kennedy Road and Antrim Crescent in Scarborough — allegedly by two other teens.
The sources said ballistics testing conducted at Ontario’s Centre of Forensic Sciences connected the gun used to kill Francis with a firearm police allege was originally owned by Kotanko, from which he’d removed the serial number using a milling machine.
Police intended to lay the rare charge of criminal negligence causing death against Kotanko for allegedly trafficking the firearm used to kill Francis, the sources said.
A police source alleged four more of Kotanko’s guns are unaccounted for.
Lawyer Michael Smitiuch speaks in front of family and friends of Rodger Kotanko on his front lawn on Nov. 18, 2021. The Kotanko family is suing Toronto police over his death.
In a statement Monday, Kotanko family lawyer Mike Smitiuch said it is “unfortunate that Toronto Police have resorted to smearing Rodger Kotanko’s reputation when he is not alive to defend himself.”
The family has alleged in a lawsuit filed earlier this year that Kotanko’s death could have been avoided if Toronto police had “properly planned and executed the search warrant,” Smitiuch said.
He added: “No matter how they attempt to portray him, Rodger did not deserve to die at the hands of Toronto police the way he did.”
The family is scheduled to give a press conference Tuesday to respond to the SIU’s decision to clear Toronto police in Kotanko’s shooting death.
Search warrant documents unsealed at the request of the Star previously revealed that late last year, police separately recovered two Norinco 1911A1 .45 calibre handguns they say they linked back to Kotanko. One was recovered in August 2021, allegedly from a young person who crashed a stolen Mercedes in Scarborough, and the other in October 2021, when officers with North Bay were investigating a “possible kidnapping” and pulled over a vehicle, and a youth was allegedly found to be in possession a handgun.
In both cases, the document says, the guns’ serial numbers appeared to have been “professionally” removed by a milling machine, as had other markings on the firearms’ slides. In the majority of cases, serial numbers are crudely removed with a file or rotary tool, the document said — not by a milling machine.
According to the search warrant documents, police were able to restore the serial numbers, finding the weapons had been registered to D.A.R.K. International Trading Company, one of two businesses owned by Kotanko. The other business he owned was R.K. Custom Guns.
The markings on the slides were also restored to reveal cursive “RK” letters on both, and “RK Custom” on the North Bay gun.
An experienced and licensed gunsmith with a certificate to acquire non-restricted, restricted and prohibited firearms, Kotanko had “legally bought, sold, manufactured successfully transferred hundreds of firearms” during his career and would have known the rules around storing and reporting “lost or stolen” firearms, wrote Det. Const. Richard Haines, the affiant on the search warrant documents.
Kotanko would have reason to attempt to obliterate the serial numbers and markings and would have a milling machine to do so, Haines wrote.
Francis died from multiple gunshot wounds on July 3, one of 46 fatal shootings in Toronto in 2021. Two teens — a boy and girl, both 15, and who cannot be named under the provisions of the Youth Criminal Justice Act — have each been charged with first-degree murder in Francis’s death.
Toronto youth workers have expressed concern that it has become increasingly common for young people to get access to guns.
The charge police intended to lay against Kotanko over Francis’s death — criminal negligence causing death — has rarely been laid in relation to the trafficking of a firearm later used to kill someone.
Toronto police did so for the first time last year when investigators laid the charge against convicted gun trafficker Jeffrey Gilmour, whose firearm was allegedly linked to the Dec. 2019 shooting death of Peter Petrov Simov. The case is still before the courts.
Well I believe that police officers today are not the same cut as police officers 30 years ago. Back then there were minimum standards for practical things like height and weight, I find officers today are not well trained in either the law and they do not have any empathy.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjyb
But the policing environment is also very different with everyone having access to 911 and the volume of calls increasing and the complexities of policing a multi cultural society. Its simply a much more difficult job.
In relation to peacefully stating your opinion without punishment the exact opposite is true. Thirty years ago the little demonstration on Parliament Hill would not have happened. A Chief of Police would get his marching orders from above, would know that he was backed up and the riot squad would be sent in probably the very first day. Everybody would be arrested and locked up for breach of the peace and most would smarten up right away.
30 years ago the government wouldn't have gotten away with what they've been doing. According to you and Sir Robert Borden the Chief of Police didn't take orders from politicians or are you referring to someone else above?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
Appreciate the feedbackQuote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
The heading is misleading as the first sentence in the story starts off withQuote:
Originally Posted by Badenoch
Toronto police allege the gun used to kill a 16-year-old boy in Scarborough last summer was traced back to Ontario gunsmith Rodger Kotanko — police sources told the Star.
Not when you know what “allege” means in that context..Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
Police are alleging that the guns were planed down by Kotanko,but,that still remains to be seen. There's more than a couple of ways those guns may have been well out of Roger's hands where someone else removed the numbers. Any kid with access to a high school milling machine could have done it. Rocket science it's not. Given the man's stellar reputation,there's several other ways this investigation could have been handled without a dynamic entry with someone getting killed. The operation in int's entirety leaves a lot of room for head scratching. Upper command needs to take a real long hard look at how the investigation proceeded and how,why and more importantly who deemed this tactic to be required.
And, like ex LEOs say if you do not blindly follow the edicts of the blue line without question then you are labelled an anti and a hater and cast aside.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Do not question the process or results, we know what is best for you.
John
There are always better ways of doing things, with the benefit of hindsight. How do you explain the fact that the guns with ser.#s removed were still registered to his business. Also, do you actually know what a dynamic entry is ? This entry was certainly not that….still lots of questions that unfortunately, will never be answered…Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
It’s clear that you’ve rejected the SIU’s findings. Can you share evidence that supports that the SIU is wrong? I’m just trying to understand your position and whether I’ve missed something. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjyb
Here's the family's response.
https://www.simcoereformer.ca/news/l...less-negligent
Quote:
Kotanko family questions findings of SIU probe
Lawyer says raid was 'reckless,’ 'negligent’
Author of the article: Monte Sonnenberg
Publishing date: Mar 08, 2022
PORT RYERSE – Family and friends of Rodger Kotanko gathered Tuesday outside the home of the Norfolk County gunsmith to question a report by the Special Investigations Unit that found no police wrongdoing in the fatal shooting last November of the 70-year-old man.
“This raid was reckless and negligent from the planning to the execution,” said Simcoe lawyer Michael Smitiuch, speaking on behalf of the Kotanko family. “This could’ve been done completely different.”
Smitiuch has filed a $23-million wrongful death lawsuit on behalf of the family.
“From a civil standpoint, we believe we are on solid ground,” he said.
None of the allegations shared at Tuesday’s news conference has been tested in court.
Smitiuch said that he still doesn’t know the identity of a customer who was in Kotanko’s workshop on Nov. 3 when the gunsmith was shot and killed by police but that – to the best of his knowledge – he was a legitimate customer who needed a repair to a handgun.
As the matter is litigated, Smitiuch said he is confident the identity of the customer, as well as that of the Toronto police officer who killed Kotanko, will come out.
“The evidence that has come to light is even more concerning than we first thought and supports our allegation of negligence in our lawsuit.”
Smitiuch said it is especially concerning that Toronto police raided Kotanko’s workshop, with guns drawn, in the presence of a customer who had nothing to do with their criminal investigation.
Jeff Kotanko – brother of the deceased and an employee of Kotanko’s gun business – said the family is interested in speaking to the customer but has been unsuccessful so far because he has gone into hiding.
“He’s scared for his life,” Kotanko said. “He hasn’t gone home yet. The cops know where he lives and that he’s a gun owner. We can’t get a straight answer out of him because he’s in hiding.”
In a report last week, Ontario’s Special Investigations Unit exonerated police of wrongdoing in connection with Kotanko’s death.
SIU director Joseph Martino said Toronto police acted after seizing two handguns connected to two separate crimes in Thunder Bay and Toronto. The serial numbers on both weapons had been ground off but police recovered them through deep forensic analysis. According to records, Toronto police concluded Kotanko was the last registered legal owner of the weapons.
One gun was linked to the shooting death last year of a 15-year-old Scarborough boy.
According to witness testimony – including that of the customer — the SIU reported that Kotanko picked up an unloaded, partially assembled pistol he was repairing and pointed it at police as they entered his shop and ordered him to surrender. The SIU reports Kotanko was shot four times in the head, torso and hand.
During Tuesday’s news conference, Jeff Kotanko said his brother was shot in both hands, suggesting a defensive posture at the time of the confrontation.
This wasn’t the only deviation from the SIU report to emerge from Tuesday’s event.
The SIU reports that Jessie Kotanko – wife of the deceased and a witness to the events of Nov. 3 — was “not interviewed.” However, Kotanko’s sister, Suzanne Kantor, said Jessie, who is of Chinese heritage and not fluent in English, provided an account to the SIU of the event that was professionally translated from her native Cantonese.
Kantor said that, in the transcription, Jessie said that a “young, big police officer who had gone into the shop holding a handgun came out of the shop” uttering profanities.
Other highlights from Tuesday’s news conference include:
• Smitiuch said Toronto police confirmed to him the day he filed a lawsuit on behalf of the Kotanko family in mid-January that they confiscated more than $20,000 in cash from Kotanko’s workshop after he died. Smitiuch said the money was derived from the sale of legal firearms at a public auction.
• Smitiuch said there is no video of the events inside Kotanko’s workshop because members of Toronto’s guns and gang unit — unlike other police officers — do not wear body cameras.
• Smitiuch said there will be a coroner’s inquest into Kotanko’s death. Smitiuch expects a thorough airing of the facts regarding the Nov. 3 incident will take place during this proceeding.
• Jeff Kotanko said his brother was a renowned gunsmith whose handmade pistols commanded as much as $7,000 apiece. He said there was a waiting list of legal customers wishing to obtain one of his handguns. He said it makes no sense that his brother would sell his product on the black market to buyers at a fraction of the legal retail price.
I'm well aware of how "dynamic" entries are conducted from past service. I'm also aware that it wasn't a full blown tactical team operation or there's no doubt in my mind there would have been an entirely different outcome by it's very nature and Kotanko would still be with us to offer explanations,at least. This thing was a hot mess and we need answers,there's no doubt in my mind of that,either.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Not sure what you are basing these sentences on, I think we have given you a balanced opinion based on all that we currently know, if you have some inside information you would like to share go ahead.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjyb
You are the one that posted this was a dynamic entry….Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
This thing is a “hot mess”, because of the outcome. I bet that not one officer there expected him to grab a gun and turn it towards them, especially when they identified themselves, several times, and ordered the occupants to put their hands up ! The CW had no problem understanding what was happening, and complied. Had Kotanko not grabbed a gun, the outcome would not be discussed here. Things can and do go sideways when executing warrants. It’s very easy to sit back after the fact and dissect what police did or didn’t do right ! That’s one reason for a debrief after the operation. You should know better !
Yes sir,I DO know better. While I agree with your assertion that things go sideways during warrant searches from past experience,the heavy-handed approach seems to have caused more problems than it solved.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Hi GilroyQuote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
I have a problem with being labeled a hater by someone who doesn't know me except online for questioning what I feel was a failure by TPS in their actions to safely question an individual as well as the location they chose to do it.
John
I did not label you a hater even although in your past posts you have decided to speak for most ex LEO's and have made many statements that are inflammatory like suggesting the police executed this man.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjyb
The location for questioning the man would of course be the location of the search warrant, one of the purposes of the warrant was to search for and seize certain items. One of the main concerts of the police is the disposal of evidence, that is why the element of surprise is important.
We are being given a narrative by the lawyer for the deceased man, the evidence they are putting forth is that the victim was seated in a swivel chair with his back to the door when the police entered, he swung around with the gun in his hand. But at the same time they are saying this, they are also saying they have not heard from the main civilian witness in the shop the customer?
Not only did he swing around with a gun in his hand he picked it up off the bench according to evidence provided by the customer and the witness officer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
https://siu.on.ca/en/directors_repor....php?drid=1856
But if one has an unshakeable belief that witnesses are subject to "coercion," that the "investigation result was expected," that all LEOs, past and present, "blindly follow the edicts of the blue line" and that a tragic but justifiable shooting is an "execution" no amount of evidence to the contrary will change his views.Quote:
Within seconds of their entry, he reached with his right hand towards the workbench, retrieved CW #2’s firearm, and turned with it in the officers’ direction as they yelled at him to “drop the gun”.
Has the witness come forth and made any statement?
He was interviewed and gave a statement to SIU investigators.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badenoch
Can read the report yourself with the link providedQuote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
That link leads to another case. The one below is for the Kotanko incident.Quote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
https://siu.on.ca/en/directors_repor....php?drid=1856
The civilian witness gave evidence to the SIU. He is under no obligation to discuss the events unless he is called before an inquest or civil trial.
Allege and believe are strewn through that news article..... not "facts "Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Good points , however if all this is factual as far as the concepts being implied , then perhaps excecuting the search warrent away from his shop may have been a bit more prudent. as well as using the body cams every officer wears on the front of the uniform.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
They were wearing vests with POLICE across the front. They also identified themselves verbally….before and during the entry…it’s all in the report.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushwhacker
It is time to make those cameras mandatory across the board, even though some forces do not want them. There needs to be more than just what people say in the report but what is recorded. This is not to prove that the police were in the wrong but rather to build back the confidence in the police forces.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Remember that kid that was alone in the street car who was blown away by a cop who was not in any danger at all? Imagine if there were no cameras there, nothing would have been done to him.
I think there’s a lot of mistrust in society these days. Of course I’m going to blame social media for planting the seed, and the lack of logic in the population, willing to germinate said seed. But I do think people forget that our first responders run toward the danger, while others run away. There’s a lack of respect for that position imo. Everyone likes to be a keyboard detective after the fact. To put the publics mind at ease they should make body cams mandatory and that way there will be little basis to refute different claims.
At one time, I would have been against the use of cameras, but not any more. I believe they should be on every officer. They would eliminate far more problems than they would cause ! I think the big issue is cost, and the retention of recordings. I believe they will become mandatory in the not too distant future. But then, if this thread is any indication, there will be those who will accuse the police of manipulating the video evidence…Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Interesting article on body cams…..
https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/...-thomas-police
No offence Rick-the Policing job is not easy, and has many challenges associated with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
At the other hand-while a plumber will eventually "flood a house" when making a mistake- a person involved in Policing has a lot higher magnitude of ramification ,if "issues" arise while doing the job.
Since there were many instances in the past,where policing job was botched(like and other job can ,and will be botched, here and there)the public lost a lot of trust. This is just a fact.
Yet, because of the ramification of "botching" a policing job can and will have major impact on individuals-it is in interest of both parties, to see clear picture.
Police man and women are just as us-humans.With all,what comes with it.
I agree totally. The role of independent oversight is imperative. However, there will always be those who second guess or totally disregard and disbelieve the findings of those independent investigations.Quote:
Originally Posted by gbk
That idea is fine in a Utopian world which none of us live in. If officers have to operate in a pro active fashion, intercept crime before it might happen they have always needed a little wiggle room. If they cannot operate in that "grey area" lots of crime will happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
An example, lets say I, am in a scout car and patrolling a middle class residential area in the middle of the day. I spot a guy wearing a backpack, he is dressed pretty shabbily and he is checking out homes pretty closely as he passes. So your experience say's this guy is out of place and his behavior is suspicious as he looks like he is casing the homes. So what have you got "legally" to stop this guy and ask him a few questions. NOT MUCH.
Without the camera a good street cop will pull this guy over and ask him a few questions about where he is headed and what he/she is doing in the area. With the camera probably easier for the cop to head over to Timmies grab a coffee and donut and wait a few hours until the call comes in for a residential break enter and theft and then pop over and take the report.
Unfortunately, what you describe has now been made illegal by the Wynne government.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
The Ways and Means Act has always and will always be available for officers who have the parts to use it, you just have to be a better talker.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
With a camera there are two actors on stage and a lot will come down to who is the better actor. LOL
Not any more. Here’s what the police have to abide by now…Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
http://www.ontario.ca/page/street-checks
OK Rick but I would still be using the ways and means act, its way more fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
I agree ! The old days were much more fun !!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
Sure , stop me and ask me questions which I will "Legally" refuse to answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
Down here you don't have to identify yourself to cops unless your stopped for a traffic violation or if you have committed a crime and you are arrested - letting cops get your identification at any other time takes away your freedom - it's like needing to show your papers to the police in Nazi Germany - I know that the cops don't like that but it's important that yours rights are not taken away - remember that cops do not have an obligation to keep you safe - a lot of people don't know that -
try growing up in a better than average neighbourhood looking a little different lol ud appreciate the change alot more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
im glad kids now a days know their rights, we didnt when we were growing up ...
We knew are rights back then. Cops had big handsQuote:
Originally Posted by Ata83
More than once in my younger years I was stopped by police investigating the appearance of suspicious activity. Didn't mind identifying myself then and wouldn't mind doing it again today. I don't get panicked at the sight of a police vehicle and don't regard a conversation with an officer as a high drama event. YMMV.
On you tube there are a lot of auditors filming cops - they exercise their freedoms and often times the cops go bananas - they are not use to guys standing up to them - as time goes on I see the cops starting to learn that they don't always have the last say - I can only guess what went on before people had cameras to film police - some changes the way cops deal with people are still needed - the internal review process of a citizen's complaint is a joke - also when a cop is sued the taxpayers shouldn't have to pay the bill - the cop should
Still do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Badenoch
I've worked as a 1st responder, and have worked with various Police Forces over the years.
By and Large, most cops are decent, but they are human. I believe in community policing, and having a conversation with the cops in the community need not be adversarial. I tend to subscribe to the "If you're not doing anything wrong, you have no worries", this goes for COs as well.
Stopped for speeding? Yep, guess you got me....thanks for the break on points.
But there are different lived experiences all over, and I'm sure there are some that would say my attitudes are as a result of my "Privilege" .