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Click the 'Moose Points' tab
Thanks for posting, I got 10 whole points.
I have zero points, but I have never applied in Ontario just thought I would check to see what is says.
I checked a while back and have 11 points. Hopefully I get one tag before I pack her in.
how about 28 points
Wow. Well you deserve to be first in line.:thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by seadog
Good Luck with your tag.
6 points for me. Usually put in for WMU 21B. What WMU do you guys historically apply in?
Maybe now I will start to apply and build up points, I refused to give the old system money.
I will wait and see what the regulations look like though.
WOW! I have a whole 7. At my age (70),the chances of ever getting another tag in my lifetime is slim to none. I might have a whole whack of gear to get rid of.
Does that mean 28 years without drawing a tag?Quote:
Originally Posted by seadog
10 points for me
Tags in each WMU will be awarded to hunters with the most points. I think it will be very hard to predict how many points a hunter will need to get a tag in a particular unit. I don’t expect to see a “guaranteed point requirement list” published in the summary.Quote:
Originally Posted by alfoldivandor
I got zero so sounds like (for me anyway) the system is working as it should? I never applied before. Hopefully this system is fairer for the hunters and the herd.
Yes, theoretically, the units that have fewer applicants will require less points.Quote:
Originally Posted by alfoldivandor
Interesting! They allocate 1 point a year and I gave up on this draw BS 5 years ago. My balance is 5 points in the system at this time.
You do not have to apply every year. You simply do not get a point if you skip one year.
I stand corrected, I have 9 points, last tag 2011.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Hunter
I knew there was a 11 somewhere in there. lol
I hunt the 50's. 18 year loser. I'm lookin' good. Already assigning camp chores to the plebes ;)
You can will me the points or the tag. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
I'm at 9 points. Won't be any better chance of getting a tag but at least I'm only throwing $15 in the toilet instead of $60
I 've got 4 points .
Does this year application bring it to 5 ?
Can I purchase more than one application .
You will get #5 if you don’t get drawn. There is only one application.Quote:
Originally Posted by JUDGE
3 points for me.
Yes , it is
Hey can you transfer your Moose Points to someone else.
WOW! Double the points I expected!!! 2
I hate to break it to you but $15 gets you into the draw, you still have to buy a basic licence ($35) to party hunt. Most hunters who hunt in a group will likely split the cost of any draw tags but you still might be paying more to hunt.Quote:
Originally Posted by cantgetright
It’s my understanding that Northern resident hunters will receive one additional (non-accumulating) point each year.Quote:
Originally Posted by JUDGE
Good luck and enjoy! It might be another 18 years to get another one lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by contaucreek
I can see this new system benefitting "lone wolves" who have a high point count if they applied as an individual every year and did not get a tag - your time has come! Second and subsequent years though it will be tough for them.
I don't think this will be good for established (guaranteed group size) groups who have been used to rotating the group member who gets a tag and getting a tag every year- most members will have a low count and it will take a few years to build up again. I think those will be dead for now. But then again, once they get all the high pointers taken care of, they have to give the remaining tags to someone, so no idea how that will work.
We'll see I guess.
21 points for me and another guy in my camp for unit 47.
Huh, I thought they removed any difference or special designations for hunters living in certain geographical areas. Just checked it and you are correct. Decent compromise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
But, don't you still get point accumulation from buying into the tag draw and being unsuccessful? No need now to buy a license if you don't draw and choose not to go. Seems like a better deal to me?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
Better than few getting adult tags and slaughtering a generation of babies every year, I think it is a great deal :)Quote:
Originally Posted by dilly
If the $15 goes back into conservation I would pay to get a point just to donate the $15 to gas for the COs.
Correct. If you're not hunting, just pay the $15 for your yearly point and that's it.Quote:
Originally Posted by dilly
I was surprised to learn that I have 8 points. I have not been applying for over 15 years, but the MNRF has my application record going back to the '90s. Good Job!
Maybe I will start applying again since my new-to-me cottage is in a local WMU that has a short season. Does anyone know if there will be a way to determine how many points will likely result in being awarded a tag? Does the new system basically get rid of group applications?
Actually, OOD Mag has a good summary of the new system on pages 24-25. The new system does get rid of the group applications.
I don't see anything in writing saying you can't transfer points. I'd think it's assumed that you can't. "All hunters will apply as individuals. There will be no group applications."Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
I think there are going to be a lot of wives(ghost hunters) out there with lots of points and no way to use them. :D
https://files.ontario.ca/mnrf-moose-...2020-10-09.pdf
Does not allow tag transfers (except in exceptional circumstances)
• Tag transfers will only be allowed in exceptional circumstances (e.g. illness, injury or death of the tag holder or an immediate family member) and will require an application to the MNRF with supporting documentation.
• Not allowing tag transfers increases fairness by discouraging “ghost hunters” (hunters who do not hunt moose but whose credentials are used by moose hunters to increase their chances of acquiring a tag)
Either that, or there are going to be some great camp cooks in the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by LowbanksArcher
The way it read to me, I may be wrong, is that every tag is individual now but anyone can join your party. So, if you have enough points you go and get your license and your validation tag. Then you call up your buddies and they all pay $35 to join you on your hunt and party hunt with you on that 1 valid tag, once that tag is gone then you are done hunting. You can pay for that tag yourself at $300 or whatever it is or you can ask the people who you bring in your party to contribute to that cost.Quote:
Originally Posted by rf2
I think it is a great idea, no more "wives tags" and transfers, I hope it actually gets the wives out hunting rather than just being used to get a better chance at a tag.
They should put out some info as to the point cost of a tag in what WMU but who knows really, this is all new.
Your cottage is in 63A?
How many points will you need to get a tag?
Depends on the particular wmu, quota and applicants.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
Used to go to Geraldton, no problem getting tags but the number of hunters kept going up and the number of moose kept going down. Haven't gone up there in over 10 years and only started going in the draw the last 3 years again because my brother bought property in WMU28 so not interested in hunting anywhere else. We'll just have to wait our turn. Not holding my breath but talked to a few of his neighbors when we went for a bird hunt. 3 of them had tags this past year so at least I'm ahead of them now.Quote:
Originally Posted by alfoldivandor
Not breaking nothing, I realize that, but that's only if you decide to hunt on someone else's tag. Just saying it used to be $60 to stay home, now only $15. Won't cost any extra as I won't have to buy the licence until I'm drawn, I'm 6 points ahead of the next guy in the group so I'll be the first guy to draw one if it happens and depending on how long that takes it probably will be my last moose hunt as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
Yes, seems like you can form the group after someone gets a tag. In the previous system, one of the reasons I stopped applying was because I didn't have a group, and the chances of getting an individual tag were minimal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Yes, my cottage is in 63a. It looks like there are (or were) actually 2 short seasons, a bow and gun season. Unfortunately, the chances of getting drawn for an adult tag were 6% (!), so that probably translates into a whole whack of points. I'll keep monitoring the situation to see if, as the years go by, they start publishing info on the "minimum points" required for a tag, maybe spend the $15 to buy my annual point.
Question ......... a camp with 5 hunters who all have very high points, 2 get tags and they only want one. Can one reserve for next year? Or keep his points and refuse tag?
yes they can refuse a tag, then that tag gets put back into the system for the second draw,Quote:
Originally Posted by ysyg
and the next year odds are person will have enough points to draw again that year.
Definitely can’t reserve it for next year.Quote:
Originally Posted by ysyg
Our old camp was in the absolute north west corner of 63A, there were moose up there, you always saw sign and on occasion there was one spotted during the deer hunt, one year we had a big lone cow run the block line to the point that one guy had to move as the moose ran right over where he was sitting, ha ha.Quote:
Originally Posted by rf2
There are moose in that area, elk are moving into there as well.
Just be patient, if things work as expected the moose numbers will come up around there and you will have a chance to go hunt moose and probably elk around your cottage in the not too distant future.
There are very few moose near Geraldton. The sea of orange and the native hunt took care of the numbers a while ago and will continue to do so. Good luck!Quote:
Originally Posted by cantgetright
YES You can turn one back in. You will receive one aging the next year,Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
1 whole point for me!...
Common sense says if you decline a tag one year, you should get one the next. In reality, it depends on the number of tags available and the number of points that applicants have. Tags are awarded to hunters with the most points, so if there are hunters with more points than you that apply, then they will be awarded tags before you. The risk is that there could be hunters with a lot of points that could theoretically apply to your unit for the first time and push you back in the line. No guarantees, just probabilities,Quote:
Originally Posted by BPR 30-06
Funny. People in the south go north to areas such as 28 (where I live) to hunt, and many in my area apply farther north (Kap, Hearst) where they have better odds of getting a tag. One thing that will be disappear in my area though, is the all the locals who didn't get drawn hitting the woods during the calf hunt.Quote:
Originally Posted by cantgetright
13 for me.
Wonder where that will put me on the list for 49?
15 for me
It is my understanding that they can not reserve it, but they can decline the tag this year re-enter the draw next year without detriment to their pointsQuote:
Originally Posted by ysyg
Any guesses on how many points will be required to be successful in 47 or 49?
28....Quote:
Originally Posted by ysyg
I got 6 points. I think it’s going to be a long long time. Lol
Yes but you will also be gaining one additional point so no one will have more points that the person turning back tag.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
How many points are you assigned each time? I'm assuming 1
Are outfitter tags still allowed? Are surplus tags still going to be available? This system seems quite complicated with a lot of unknowns. I wish I was an unregulated hunter, then I would have infinite points LOL.
Thanks for the link. The only unfair thing I see is that a hunter with 25 points could NOT get his first choice and all tags are gone before second choice draw. He is SOL. while another hunter with 3 points applies for calf first and gets it. 25 point guy stays home and 3 point guy goes moose hunting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Hunter
You can refuse it and keep your points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
If you had 5 points this year and refused your tag, you'll have 6 next year.
You will have the same odds of getting a tag as everyone else that had 5 points last year and didn't get a tag.
The odds of getting the tag the following year are determined by numbers of hunters with the same number of points as you from last year and the total number of tags.
The guy with the 25 points could apply for the calf tag and go hunting. There are choices to be made.Quote:
Originally Posted by ysyg
Agree 100% Werner, just a bit of homework/strategy/ crapshoot, involved here.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahuntr300
I applied as part of a group for years. It’s been a long time since I drew a tag. The successful group applications didn’t effect me. I Still have 10 points. It appears you only reset to zero if you where the tag holder, and group success doesn’t impact things.
That's correct. I notice from some posters lots of references to "group" this and "group" that. Every hunter needs to get out of the "group" mindset. That system is now gone,never to return (hopefully).Quote:
Originally Posted by diverduck
so being a first time moose applicant, I'd have 0 points? and my chances for a tag are basically nothing for years....? that's what I'm getting here
Yes for the first year. Depending where you want to hunt and how many hunters apply, maybe the second year you might get a tag on the James Bay Coast on a fly in if you want to. Might take many years to get enough points to get a tag around Timmins. You can look at pass tag success rate to give you an idea. Also every year there was zones with extra tags available, I'm sure some of these places might need less points to get a tag. Or do you save your points for a chance at a area where everyone wants to hunt.Quote:
Originally Posted by m1k3_88
Biggest problem the first year is no one knows the point threshold. Do they need 40, 20, 5?
Once it’s run for a few years and people know the average in the WMU they want to hunt it will settle down, hopefully.
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They haven't really talked about how Calf, cow or bull tag draw will work. Will calf be a separate draw then adult tags?
If you need the same amount of points for a calf tag that you do for a bull tag, I don't think too many people will be applying for calf? Might not be a bad thing.
You would have to apply for a calf tag. The cost of a tag if successful would be less.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Hunter
Right on both accounts.Quote:
Originally Posted by m1k3_88
Yes cost is less, but do you lose the same amount of points?Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Yes, I believe so....if it was your first choice. If you get a calf, or any tag in the second choice, or third choice draw, you keep your points. This eliminates the excess tags issue.. there’s a good link posted earlier here that gives good info....Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Hunter
Thanks, I read it again a few times, my guess is calf tags will end up in the Second Chance allocation second choice and third choice which will be drawn randomly and you retain your points???? Unless some groups want a calf tag?Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Not true, there could be guys that apply with more points that previously applied in other units. Don’t assume that hunters won’t get fed up where they normally apply and end up switching units.Quote:
Originally Posted by BPR 30-06
After the first couple of years, reality is going to set in for many hunters that they, or their group, may never draw a tag on their preffered unit. If they want a tag they will have to switch units.
So if I start applying for a tag this year in WMU 48 in about 30 years from 2050 I should have enough points to get one. :)
That's apparently the way the system is designed. Several posters commented that Calf tag was an alternative. Possibly,but,bear in mind that the calf season has been tremendously reduced to a one week period in most WMU's in the south. Not many crews will want to ramp up a hunt for calves only and need to travel to a different WMU moving their entire camp in order to do so in a two week time slot in the north. This is starting to look fairly intricate when we start to peel off the layers a lot like peeling an onion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
This is true Sam, but I am also hoping the "high pointers" will pull tags in the first year or two and things will settle out once they reset back to zero. We figure there are only one or two guys with high point scores in our group and they will be at zero once they draw the tag. Then most guys are evened out within a point or two.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
This new system requires a solid understanding of how it works, then it requires people to meet and discuss best options. For those who are moaning about having to buy into the draw for 30 years before they draw a tag to hunt to alone in a popular unit, well...tough. Moose are big. If you want to hunt alone, hunt deer.
The idea is that the population will come up because all the babies are not being killed off, that should allow for a greater harvest of adult animals down the road and a reduced number of points.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
Exactly. Likely won't see the payoff in my lifetime or for guys older than me, but for the ones just starting out or that have been hunting less than 20 years, it should make for a more sustainable herd for years to come(if they don't change the system again)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Being mobile year to year and flexible about hunting locations as a group will also become more important again. This will be hard on established camps south of The French river. I also think it could discourage new hunters. Why on earth would a southern moose group want a first year hunter now?Quote:
Originally Posted by dilly
A parent who was looking forward to going moose hunting with his/her teenage kids at a legacy camp would likely see this as the end of the road.....those people are all going to need to get back to heading well North and camping.
The thing is, the older hunters most likely have more money than the younger hunters, so the point of being able to get to a more remote area to hunt.Quote:
Originally Posted by cantgetright
There will always be places in Ontario that you would be able to use a point or 2 to get at a bull, just have to make a long trip to do it.
If you can drive there it will take more points to get a tag.
TheI think that is shallow and short-sighted thinking. Young people are good for dogging and packing out meat. The enjoyment comes from being with your kids anyway and watching them learn and participate. If a guy draws a tag, first-year people can still chip in and hunt in the group.Quote:
Originally Posted by outdoorlife
I’m not saying I am a huge fan of the new system yet, but there are lots of things I won’t miss with the old system. Seemed like tons of shenanigans used to go on and the management logic of “calves don’t survive much, so go ahead and shoot them” didn’t ever make sense to me.
They may have more money than the younger guys but 90% or more of the older guys that I hunted with once they get north of 65 aren't as keen to do a 20 hour trip anymore. Usually a couple die hards though. For me it just makes more sense to go the 8 hours to where we have private property to hunt with a cabin to stay in. If we draw a tag, great, if not, oh well we go up for a bird hunt like we did last year and just look at the moose we have on camera.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
One tag choice is calf/cow, not sure how that’s going to play out.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
All in all-many asked what will be the points this year to get a tag.
My guess is: the number of points needed ina WMU/bull or cow will be the Guaranteed Group size from 2020 plus 1 -2 more points.
For the many areas NO Guarantee in 2020 -You can prepare Yourself if simply divide number of applicant in 2020 versus number of tags(bull or cow)available in 2020,then ADD 1-2 points to it.
I think this will put You in ballpark.
MNRF has to work with something.......... last year numbers would be a good benchmark for them.
I do not believe they have anything different to work with ,anyway.
Can anyone explain how the northern resident point works?
"continues to provide Northern resident hunters with a small preference by receiving one additional (non-accumulating) point"
You get one extra point.
Example you have 5 points in your “bank” you actually get 6.
You have 2 points when they do the math you have 3.
It does not accumulate so your not gaining 2 points a year your just adding one to your bank for that years application.
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The only problem with that theory is most WMU's in the south didn't have guaranteed group tags,so,there wouldn't be data to use.I doubt it had any bearing,at all.For the most part,I think they're just going into this system cold.Quote:
Originally Posted by gbk
The group sizes from the past were part of the problem too, there were too many tags still going out and meeting the group size expectations. They need to go in with at most the same number of tags available and based on applications the people with the most points get the first opportunity.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
They should be able to come out and say "Last year in this WMU anyone who had more than X points had an opportunity at a Y tag".
Thank you sirQuote:
Originally Posted by Saskfly
Wow, if that is really the opinion of hunting and getting your family involved then we have a serious problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by outdoorlife
Hunting should not be about filling tags, it should be about the experience. If you have a rookie hunter in a group and someone gets a tag then you still have the party hunt, the bird hunt, the fishing and more importantly the time away with family. If the only reason to bring new hunters in to the sport is to get a moose tag then we as a hunting community are doomed.
I was trying to figure out how this would work. There's a bit of thinking to be done about what you want to do and how to work it out with your buddies. For example, if you are making a long trip to hunt and only are going to go if you have a cow/bull tag, then only apply for cow/bull. But if you want to hunt every year even with only a calf tag, then the guys with most points should apply for cow/bull and the guys with lesser points should apply for a calf. Of the guys who get calf tags, the guy with least points should accept his and the others should return theirs for next year. You could accept more than 1 calf tag, but that will decrease your odds of a calf tag next near. Depends on how many guys you have together. Being able to return a tag gives a whole lot of flexibility in hunt planning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Hunter
What do you mean cow/bull tag ? The choices are, bull, cow/calf and calf.....Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
I think we have to stop thinking of the moose allocation as a draw, a draw means out of a hat, randomness to it. The moose allocation is going to be done with seniority, you say that you want a bull or cow/calf of calf in a given WMU and they start at the top of the list calling people to see if the want that tag, if they do not get to you then you wait until next year and you get an extra point.
You should be able to say you want a tag in every single WMU in the province if you want, once your points are gone it does not matter, or select only the WMU or WMUs that you may go hunt at.
We shall see how things actually come out, I hope to see very few cow or calf tags allocated in easy to access WMUs.
Here is to hoping my son will be able to hunt moose in Ontario.
It will still be a draw. Hunters with the same number of points will go into a pool, and a draw will allocate tags accordingly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Ok, that makes sense, but not everyone will go in to a draw as it was in the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Yes seems like the strategist will do well with this new system.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
I read it a few more times and I think the calf tags will be left to the end for the Second Chance Allocation in the second and third choice draw where you retain your points???
Unless you have a big group and have one hunter put in for calf.
Not sure about cow/calf draw? is that for every WMU?
There's still lots we need to find out IMO.
Being able to return a tag gives a whole lot of flexibility in hunt planning for sure.
Well as long as I get one more before I drop...lol, would be nice to hunt where I live and work.
From what I read everything will be done earlier too, so planning should be better than having everything lined up only to find out you struck out on tags as in the past, then again they say that the draw will be earlier, will they actually send out the results earlier, I don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Hunter
That's exactly the way I see it. I hope it works out for most of us.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
I don't like this new system at all.
At least before we knew where we stood and the outcome was pretty predictable. Apart from the guaranteed group size issue which irked a lot of individual applicants, the system was good. If they wanted to eliminate group applications, they should have done just that. Also everyone had an equal chance as the system was random draw.
Another thing I don't like is the huge increase in cost per person that they are sneaking in here for people that want to go moose hunting. The price of a tag was ~$55 before now it is $250. If your friends come with you they need to pay $50 each. So say 4 of your friends come it will be $200 + 250 =450. 450/5 = $90 each! Is my math or figures wrong? Did no one notice this?
You do realize that $250 bull tag and $50 licence fee is only on the years you actually get a tag. All other years are $15. I see that as a significant cost savings on all the years you can't hunt as you don't have a tagQuote:
Originally Posted by Ahuntr300
Yes. I did say for people that want to actually GO moose hunting. You can't go with paying only $15. And someone you go with has to have a tag.Quote:
Originally Posted by FishHog
Unless you know 20 hunters with 20+ points or are willing to go near the Manitoba border every year to draw a tag or get one in the 2nd allocation, you likely won't be going every year as in past years with all the calf hunting.(which is a good thing)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahuntr300
So $55 with only a chance to take a calf or $90 with 4 guys going after a bull.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahuntr300
Most groups are larger than that, take a gang of 8 guys. That is $400+$250 = $650/8 = $81.25 to go hunting for a bull. Also, as has been mentioned before, you used to pay $55 for 10 years or more to get a chance at a bull, so $550 with no chance to hunt one, or $150 to build up the points to go after one now.
I know the 10 years would be dependent on zone but it was more expensive to get into the draw before.
I think the new system actually encourages gangs to form. And allows people to opt in or out. Is that not good?
I agree. The vast majority of people want to go in a gang. Moose hunting is hard and no fun by yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by dilly
Either way it will cost more for the same group to go now that it did in the past. Fox worked out 10 people $81 each vs old $55 each- so is that not more expensive?
And most groups managed to get a tag most of the times between the members with the old system.
Just to clarify the costs: $15 to apply and earn a point, $35 for the licence, $30 for a calf tag, $150 for cow/calf, and $200 for a bull tag. Tag holders who hunt in groups can ask their buddies to share the cost of the tag.
I think it’s going to take 2 years for most hunters to learn the new system and for the point requirements to stabilize. By year 3, hunters should have a good idea how many points will be required in their favourite unit.
There’s going to be sticker-shock in some units when it becomes apparent that it will take about 20+ points to get a tag. IMO, the crying isn’t over about the moose draw.:whacked:
Yes. looks like $15 to enter the draw and another $35 =$50 (before tax?) if you want to party hunt with someone that has a tag.
Question: Can you only buy a $35 license for party hunting and not enter the draw? Although I doubt anyone would want to do that.
Agree, there is going to be a lot of crying !
Fox, I think you are using incorrect figures. For group of 8, the basic cost to hunt = $50 ($15 app fee + $35 licence fee) + $25 bull tag ($200/8) = $75 each.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
For a group of 4: $50 (app & lic) + $50 ($200 bull tag split 4 ways) = $100 each. Yes it’s more expensive; the MNR is charging what they believe the market (hunters) will pay. Their revenues have fallen over the years (compared to expenditures) so they are looking to increase revenue streams.
With this new system don't plan on going every year , even if each member of your group has a high number of points and are successful initially it'll take quite a few years to accumulate enough points for future hunts.
Me and Mrs.T blow $15/week on Lottery tickets. I have no problem blowing $15/year for a chance at a tag and gaining a point. Many hunters may need to wrap their heads around giving up organized camps in favor of portable,rapid-deployment camps to head for low point requirement tag allocation areas,buying a license at $35 and splitting the cost of an adult tag at up to $200 divided by the number of hunters in the crew. When we add the cost of supplies,fuel and in some instances,accommodation at lodges etc,Moose hunting is going to cost a lot more to go. In view of how quickly times are changing,we'l all need to get used to the fact and simply learn to suck it up.
Sorry, I just took the numbers from the last guy and it looked like it cost $250 additional for the bull tag.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
It is still cheaper, people do not get a bull tag every year, it takes many years, you go in to the draw for 10 years and you are up to $550 for that one tag and your buddies are in on it after paying their $550 for that one opportunity at a bull.
The new system you are $150 for that 10 years plus $35 extra for the license plus $25 extra to pay a share of your buddies tag with 8 of you, so in 10 years you go on a bull hunt and it costs you $210.
You can though just do the whole thing solo, $150 for 10 years to build up the points, $200 for the license and tag fee for that bull, so you are going on a moose hunt for a bull solo for $350, still much cheaper than applying for 10 years of nothing.
I’m surprised it’s not more. They need to recover lost revenue from cutting the application costs. Lots of guys will only spend the $15.00, rather than the usual $55, to find out you didn’t get tags....Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
I have 8 points. My friends have 7, 4, and 3. We normally apply in WMU 60 and have never gotten a tag.
In 2020 four of us went far away - to WMU 16B - and spent more than $8,000 in total to see zero moose.
We are not rich and can't do this every year, but there are people who can do fly-in hunts regularly, so doing "money math" becomes a moot point really - IMHO - because people will pay whatever they need to pay in order to participate in what they like to do!
If the new points system helps bring back the moose population, and if it offers hunters a more fair opportunity for getting drawn for an adult moose tag in the meantime, then I for one will find the money no matter how much they ask for. I might grumble a bit but will still pay.
I remember the time when fishing in Ontario was free (yes I am THAT old!) and all of a sudden around 1985(?) they introduced a RESIDENT's Fishing Licence for a whopping $10 per year!!! There was no internet back then, but magazine and newspaper articles were aplenty on the subject, and many people complained and whined about the HUGE annual fees "just to go fishing".
Nearly four decades later the cost of sport fishing licence is at about $30/year if you count the cost of the Outdoors Card. Not bad I think, considering how much the salaries have gone up for the staff at MNRF, plus the costs of fish stocking programs, vehicles, uniforms, real estate charges, monitoring and enforcement expenses, etc.
So I believe that this new moose system fees are going to also change as we go forward. Same as the price for your deer and turkey tags which have slowly climbed up for the past few decades and will likely keep on climbing. As long as we do our part and hand over a healthy wildlife population to the next generation of outdoorsmen the fees are not really that huge a consideration.
What IS important for us at the present time is to have a FAIR chance at getting a desirable adult moose tag, and I believe that the MNRF people have done a lot of thinking before coming up with this new system. They may still have to iron out some issues in the first year or three but I remain hopeful that we finally have a better way of doing things when it comes to moose hunting in Ontario. :)
last year all 4 of you had ~5% chance to draw a tag in WMU 60. Now all 4 of you have a 0% chance to draw a tag in area 60 for 10-20 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkman
/not pro-con new or old system. Just want folks to fully understand what they’re advocating. Under The new system, I think anyone with less than probably 15-20 points is going to want to look at being WMU mobile/flexible.
My nephew is a pilot for an outfitter in NWO. Because the border was closed last fall, the outfitter offered discounts on hunts. Folks might want to look into this further, might be a one-in-lifetime opportunity.
I agree 100%. It's gonna take a while to find the angle that will maximize a groups chances of hunting. I realize the applications are as individuals, but most guys hunt with an established group. It's going to take a few years to get the high point applicants out of the system before you get a feel for what is a realistic point number for an area.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
And that is a tough pill to swallow for established camps (actual buildings and such) that have been around for years. Pretty much defeats the purpose of having one.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
So let's try and figure out the mat on this and I have no starting point but after 1- 5 years all those with the most points from years ago should got used up, at what point do you see it leveling out that say, maybe a person gets a tag every 5 years? Anyone have an idea how we can do the math on this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
The best way to think about this new system is like a waiting list. Where would your points put you on the list?
WMU 60 again by example, had 1550 apply for 59 tags on the bull side last year. If you have let’s say 6 points, where would that put on the waiting list? If it puts you around #900, then the wait is around 15 years provided the WMU maintains the same volume of interest and similar quotas
I am not sure about this, but I think AB has a system where you have to be drawn for certain tags in certain areas. I keep reading about residents being drawn for muledeer tags. If someone here is familiar with how that system works, maybe they could let us know if we should expect something similar.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
Interesting I wonder if the new will be better than the old, for example for me I have basically always applied for tag in WMU 60 some 23 times, with success twice. So basically one adult tag every 13 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by outdoorlife
I really hope you are right about bringing back the moose populations, but sadly I highly doubt this new system will make any difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkman
First, like the old system, it is only applicable to regulated hunters as far as is known, and second, there is no mention that the number of tags or seasons will be reduced - is there? It is only a new way to allocate tags as far as I can see.
In order to bring back the populations the seasons need to be closed for a few years and predator control measures need to be put in place.
Never going to happen my friends.
5% On what planet?Quote:
Originally Posted by outdoorlife
This year will be a crapshoot for sure. Lots of high numbers just here floating around (3 for me never drawn). Hopefully next year we will have some draws stats of some use to look at.
Out of 10 crew members,we have three with 18 points,four with 10 pts,one with 7 points (me) and one with 1 point and one with zero points (fng). We're in wmu 50 where tag allocation is slim to none. It'll be interesting to see how this works out,if at all.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...db91fa25c5.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by North of Seven
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalkhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...bfc2296a8b.jpg
I have actually suggested this very same thing many many times over the past dozen years! Problem is that not everybody agrees on that point and I am not able to disagree with those people either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahuntr300
Life is definitely short and we all want to have tags and go shoot big moose every hunting season! At my age (61) if hunting stops completely for three years - as I myself advocate for - then I am losing precious time because I might be dead or in a wheelchair in four years when hunting resumes again. So, based on my own logic I can see people disagreeing with a 3 year ban on moose hunting.
Still a complicated puzzle.
As mentioned by a few already, it will take a couple of years for things to make sense.
Those who have a lot of points already will get drawn and buy tags, and then go to the back of the line.
The rest will then get their chances based on their points and after having their turn, will move to the back of the line as well.
In about five to ten years those hunters with lower number of points now will move up to the front of the line slowly, as they continue to accumulate points by applying regularly every year in the meantime.
Hard for all of us to see it now, but let's hope things will settle and MAKE SENSE by 2030.
We all complained about the "old system" for years so now we have "something different" and can only hope that is more fair than before!
I don`t moose hunt but have been following moose hunting threads for years.
I understand populations are down so shouldn't the main concern be to increase or at least maintain the current population. Maybe I have missed it but I haven't read or heard a MNRF plan for that. I guess my point is, If you one can`t identify what you want to accomplish, how can you accomplish it...
Hope it works out for the hunter and the herd, best of luck to all applying....
The Ontario moose system had to change for a multitude of reasons - and that's coming from someone who had the good fortune to draw (solo) a bull moose rifle tag in 63 in 2019.
What we have now is a pure preference point system. The person who enters the tag allocation system for that year with the most points gets the tag in WMU X.
I would have preferred to see a hybrid preference point system where 90% of the tag allocation goes to the highest point holders and 10% goes into a random draw where everyone (regardless of point status) has an equal chance of pulling a tag. Rewards those waiting, still gives a chance to newcomers.
Most American western states have one of the two systems above for big game tags.
Most people are not going to be moose hunting every year. Frankly, most people shouldn't have been moose hunting every year for a while now - shooting calves was always a terrible idea and I believe some (most) of our population decline can be pinned on it.
Hopefully the new system provides fairness and clarity to applicants (you're going to know after this year the number of approximate points you will need to hunt WMU X), reduces some pressure on the moose population, and lets the calves walk to (hopefully) become adult moose.
The thing about those statistics is that they are based on tags allotted to the guaranteed group size and the next largest group. Individuals were awarded tags in the third step of the draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by outdoorlife
The only way that they can state with certainty how many points are required is if they build in a buffer. They can’t say with absolute certainty how many hunters will apply in each unit. They can probably figure out hunter loyalty to a particular unit and they will have stats on the distribution of points and corresponding demographics. For example, let’s say it “should” take 10 points (based on past draw info) to earn a bull tag in WMU “X”. Let’s also assume that the hunter fidelity rate in that unit is 90%, and they know that there are many hunters who have 15+ points. The MNR then crunched the numbers and says that probable number of points required is 13. The draw happens and it turns out that hunters with as few as 9 points get a tag.Quote:
Originally Posted by buckchaser
As you said, there will never really be a “guaranteed” point number for a tag because the MNR cannot predict application trends. The value in the previous year’s data will be to provide a general indication for the current year of application.
I thought I read that one of the last stages of the Ontario draw will be a random allocation?Quote:
Originally Posted by buckchaser
That is true - but realistically how many tags will still be available at that point? The most desirable/easily accessed WMUs will almost certainly not have tags available in the final stage random draw.
On the flip side of the patterns for draw %, You are going to have hunters study the charts after the 1st year to see if there are any changes in draw #.
So, you see a WMU you don't hunt but is in the area you scout and hunt, just for instance with 100 bull tags and 300 people applied last year for a 33% success rate.
Your preferred WMU had 100 bull tags and 1800 people applied so you had only a 5.5% chance of drawing.
I could see next year large numbers of people changing their WMU choices and hoping for a better chance at winning the lottery.
I think it is going to be a gong show for a few years with wild swings in draw percentages for different WMUs as hunters look to get an edge, and that is if MNR even keeps tags available at the same numbers they are now.
John
Its going to be a very interesting year.
Sure would be nice to see some draw numbers before we purchase.
The MNR could review previous years application data and figure out how many points would have been required to get a tag. I’m hoping that they will publish something that will inform hunters of their probable chances.
People could do that under the previous system - the number of tags and applicants were published in the regulations summary. I don't see how it's really different now - or are you saying that the previous group application system prevented people from freely changing the area they applied in because it favoured established groups?Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjyb
I think that in reality, lots of hunters are limited to hunting in certain WMUs due to proximity, the location of their camps, or the location of the hunters in their group. I'm not sure if they will be willing to change that just because of the new system. Anyway, who knows. Time will tell.
Last year 2500 people applied for 40 tags in WMU 49. Presumably as well, many hunters in 49 probably didn’t even bother applying. So likely 3000-5000 people went up to 49 for moose season to fish, shoot grouse, ride atvs and spend the week in camp.
In 2021 only hunters associated with those 40 tags + new calf tags will be out the week of moose season in WMU 49.
While this is going to be hard on the Northern hospitality industry (motels, restaurants, tackle shops etc.) It has to be good for the moose, no?
And finally putting the interests of the moose herd ahead of $, well that has to be good too, no?
I think the lack of traffic in the woods going forward should be wonderful for those fortunate to get tags. Ultimately it should result in more moose and less intrusion and disturbance in good moose habitat. Those can’t be bad things...
Best chance for a tag will be through an outfitter.
Who only cater to Americans.
And some charge an arm and a leg for the tags that are supposed to be supplied free.Quote:
Best chance for a tag will be through an outfitter.
Who only cater to Americans.
So you think that only the tag holders are going to go? I beg to differ. I think the tag holders will be taking their gang with them and it will make no difference in the numbers of hunters going, it could even be more. You do not need a tag to party hunt for moose, only a license which will be 15+35 =$50. Party hunting for moose is still allowed.Quote:
Originally Posted by outdoorlife
Also, it is not legal to moose hunt without a tag or a member of your camp to have a tag and like you said go up to shoot grouse and ride their ATVs, which could still be construed as moose hunting that week. A lot of guys buy bear tags in case the MNR asks them, but this is still not acceptable - never was.
By “associated with” I was referring to the tag holders and their groups. A fraction of last year’s moose hunters in that areaQuote:
Originally Posted by Ahuntr300
They cater to anyone that wants to pay the asking price.Quote:
Originally Posted by JUDGE
How do we know it wont be the same?Quote:
Originally Posted by outdoorlife
Is there going to be the same amount of adult tags?
What if they give out a pile of calf tags?
No limit on how many hunters can party hunt on one tag?
Unregulated hunters will be doing the same!
Will they be putting the interests of the moose herd ahead of $, not sure about that?
We don't know enough yet about tag numbers IMO.
Might be the same hunting pressure, under a new point system format?
IMO nothing is going to change and its going to be more expensive to go moose hunting while doing so. All smoke and mirrors IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Hunter
This new system is just going to please people that complained for years that they were not able to get a tag as they applied as individuals in high demand areas. They'll get their wish for a year or 2 until it catches up to them as well.
As far as tag numbers, there is too much regional economic pressure and MNR needs the revenue so, don't expect the tag numbers to be reduced drastically as they should as the moose populations are disappearing from most accessible areas.
tag numbers increased a lot in some areas last year,
nothing is going to change specially after 2 years or sorting it out,
I find it funny the people that complain there is no tags and no moose be the first ones to go shoot a set of twin calves or one calf to get 20 pounds of meat each after splitting with the group. and also be the ones that wont adapt and go deeper in the bush where the moose are after everyone pushes them back deep.
should only be aloud to shoot a calf if you live in the wmu you are hunting my opinion, leave the rest to grow.
If the moose herd is stable in a unit, then the number of adult tags numbers should be very close to what they were last year. Where calf tags were not previously available, the MNR will review what the calf harvest trend has been. They will also take into account the herd status- populations, age, sex ratios, etc. Given the short season and general low hunter success rates, calf tags should be plentiful and the MNR will hope that they all get allocated before the random draw to reduce the number of hunters with high point totals.
I hope that they stop all calf and cow tags for the vast majority of the province. The moose population is not very high in many areas, except for the far north but pretty much anywhere that you can drive a truck to should not have cows and calves shot, or at least a very small number of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
I agree. They could also manage the moose range better. More fires should be able to burn and less herbicide spraying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Same age.... 3 points.... Is Baffin Island in Ontario ?
Same age.... I was AWARDED 3 points.... I may have to go a lot further north ! Is Baffin Island in Ontario ?Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
I have 8.... not much chance here either. We’ve had a great run for the past 45 years though....Quote:
Originally Posted by Al7mm
Hey stranger! It's been a while. Good to see you back into the fray. Baffin? I was thinking Resolute,but,that's not in Ontario,either. My last kick at the cat might be a guided Moose hunt to The Yukon. Me and a couple of other fellas are putting out some feelers. Nothing concrete,yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al7mm
That will be one hellava kick !Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Last I looked , it was around 10 grand....NL might be worth looking into though...
The Rock is on the radar,too,definitely. We're waiting for a little more info from The Yukon. It seems there's no shortage of inflation up there. Prices,so far,are quite a bit north of $10K by the time we add in air fare.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
You would think that with covid and no Americans coming north that they would lower their price like some snow goose guides are doing out west.....Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Fantastic! Maybe this will keep the weekend warriors/road hunters home this year. Probably not.
moose hunting with no road warriors that would be the dream,Quote:
Originally Posted by WranglerWild17
those are the guys that say there's no moose to from my experience,
Given that Americans cant really get here due to COVID, I'd think the outfitters will take anyones moneyQuote:
Originally Posted by JUDGE
covid or not, Canadian or American outfitters will take anyones money,Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_saber
Oh,they absolutely will.......just lots of it. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by blasted_saber
For sure. I was asked to go on a muzzleloader moose hunt last fall around Nakeena I think. Guys that went were told it was a one off as the borders were expected to be open and Americans spend more money. The way its going maybe it'll be a 2 off.Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_saber