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I see that the teachers unions are back at it again. Spending millions of dollars of their members money to slam Doug Ford. At least they could have spend some more funding on editing because IMHO they sound like pestilent little children and if I were a teacher I would be embarrassed.
Doug has much more problems than just teachers, police services refuse to follow his Gestapo orders.
I wonder where the Solicitor General got her law degree after enacting public freedom and liberty laws in direct violation of The Charter? She should resign or be fired. This BS "doctatorship" needs to be brought to a screaming halt. As for the teacher's union attack ads,Ho-Hum,what else is new?
Well my sons teachers now only teach half a day 8 - 12:30 . So even the teachers cannot disagree that their pay should be cut by 50%.
Cutting teacher's pay 50% will never happen. They're paid by yearly contract whether they're working or not. It's nearly impossible to generate sympathy for highly paid liberal whiners. Their attack ads are a joke.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
With online learning become the new norm, the teachers union can cry all they want. Truth is our province won't be needing as many teachers.
I'm sure Doug's telling the union you can take your classroom size demands and shove it. Go ahead go on strike, its not like kids are missing school. I'm sure teachers won't have the same past public support in the near future if they strike...
Just like the TPA......not a union......but if walks like a duck and quacks like a duckQuote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Fortunately for freedom these ducks knew not to follow an unlawful order, quack,quack..Quote:
Originally Posted by 410001661
Nice work if you can get it, Summer off and only work 5 hours a day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
There is no better way for a student to learn then being taught (face to face) by a teacher. Online learning, really doesn't work for kids. And ya, those ads are really annoying.
I agree.......but in high school & college/University they need to have experience with on-line learning because in the real world it is NOT going away anytime soon. In the corporate world on-line training is rapidly replacing class room training at a rapid pace and removing it from the education system would be a big disservice to kids entering the industry.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
Teachers need to get up to speed on the technology that is available and embrace it. The school boards need to cut loose the dinosaurs and bring in younger and more adapt teachers that can utilize these tools for the benefit of the kids. Chalk boards are going the way of the abacus - like it or not.
It is not just about the face to face but most importantly the social aspect of going to school.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
Humans like to interact with one another. Body language is of the utmost importance in society.
The cancel culture is working very hard at eliminating that aspect of it and turn everyone into a mindless obedient zombie.
Kids belong in a school class environment and teachers unions need to stop whining and suck it up.
I disagree online learning has now been around for almost 15 years, have done many computer courses that way.
I agree not all can be taught online effectively like shop and cooking. But some can like math, English, french, social studies, health, biology etc.
I could see kids going in once or twice a week to do biology experiments, chemistry, shop. But for the most part many can be taight online. University and college have had online courses for at least 5 years now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
Ask almost any kid whether they like online learning, most would say, they do not.... Online learning for most adults is great, it just isn't that great for most kids.....Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
They had better get use to it as that is the way most Jobs will be going at least anything in computers. That is way the way most Universities and Colleges are going and most of the world. So you are suggesting we should strive to make sure they are not ready? Already our schools level of education is much less then it was 30 years ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
Given the choice between online learning and going to school, my 3 grandkids would rather get on the bus and go to school. I'm sure a big part of wanting to learn in school is the social aspect of being around their peers.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
Yes, they been at it for a couple of weeks.Quote:
Originally Posted by 410001661
Drives me crazy for them to think that I care about their self serving political views!
Yes, okay, sure............... and without face to face learning, it has gotten worse for most kids.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
Those adds are just as annoying as the individuals that keep bashing teachers :)
Agreed. My kids prefer the online option right now because the alternative is masks all day.Quote:
Originally Posted by impact
The teachers unions need to be de-certified.
I did say some classes would still be in class and as others have said for the social part. But we are already showing that not as many teachers will be needed in the future. I could definetly see future pay cuts and at least 25% less teachers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
Man those adverts look like they came from Martin Scorcese ... lol ... did they band up the DRAMA teachers to put that ad together?
That's just wishful thinking. It will never happen. Teacher's unions will never take a step backwards with regards to pay.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
HAH!! That's what they said about autoworkers that worked out well,didn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by delmer
I for 1 am sick and tired of their radio and TV ads. Even if this is just the top 1% of the union leaders spewing their propaganda, the rest of the union members better topple the king at the top and the royal court around him or their will be a revolution where all the members will lose big time. The union is there to help the employees and make a better workplace for them and students, not play at provincial politics and try to overturn a government with their billions of dollars they have available from receiving taxpayers money.
If I was on the wall about being for or agin, I have now landed solidly on the ground against their selfish stand. Pay them like the other essential workers in the stores and warehouses, working full time hours for 50 weeks a year.
John
Just think about the bonus that the unions could have provided their members if they did not spend millions on creating and airing all the TV and radio ad's. I hope Canadians remember this when they come to us hand in hand looking for a raise.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjyb
Going against the flow here but if it helps to get the Ford conservatives out of power all the better.
For full transparency I'll state that I am a teacher and I can say for certain that we hate the online teaching as much as the students, even if I'm only "working 50% of the time" . I'm very tech-savy so it's definitely not because I'm a "dinosaur" who doesn't understand. It's because I see the tired, morose, disgengaged faces of my students doing their best to learn online.
Online learning is not natural, and if you think kids need more screen time to learn "how the world is going to be", you're scope might need some adjustments.
So make sure they are not prepared for the future. Much of College and University has been online for awhile.
Would you prefer the Liberals who tried to purposely ruin Ontario or the NDP who also on purpose tried to ruin Ontario?
Would you be willing to take a 75% pay cut to help the debt of Ontario?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanGagnon
Until the teachers in this province learn that they are NOT the 'be all to end all', the province has to stay with a Conservative government. Ford had defeated their Union nonsense prior to the pandemic after a protracted strike that used the kids as bargaining chips for higher salaries...and yes that was what they did !! .Quote:
Originally Posted by DanGagnon
The Liberals allowed the union to run roughshod over bargaining process and gain far more than they should have ever have been able to negotiate. Kathleen Wynne was a School Trustee prior to becoming the Premier and was far too biased and gave them far too much.
On-line learned was fought by the teacher's Union tooth and nail...and the Pandemic response proved out why...it wasn't about the quality of education....it was about the loss of jobs.
I agree, couldn't of said it any better.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Other than the Ford comment I see that you are simply trying to state that kids should be in a brick and mortar school and I agree with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanGagnon
Plenty of other opportunities for them to play on their 'pukers.
I don't think online learning means less teaching jobs because they would still have to keep the ratio (student to teacher) the same. If anything, you might have to increase teaching positions because some online learners need a lot of extra help.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Just more propaganda from a bunch of self serving whiners !
Sadly every time the teachers go on strike, its not about the students. Its always about more money for the union and their members. They use the students and parents as their bargaining power.
Not to mention my job is 100% remote, online now, and a lot of people have moved this direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
But I will admit, that in person learning is FAR more efficient ... there are advantages. I think what is missing is the
advantages of remote learning and business ... and weighing that against the advantages of in person learning and business.
For example, we can now entertain the thought of having someone in California work for our company that is "based in" Toronto,
hiring the best person in the job, without concerning ourselves of disrupting that person's family life and uprooting the spouse and children.
We don't sit on the highways burning fuel unnecessarily to drive to and from work each day, which helps climate change.
There are benefits to remote interaction, and these should not be discounted.
For remote learning, I think the system is crude right now ... only 1 year in, and people treating it like a temporary thing, so they don't invest time and money to improve the status quo. If we said that it will go 100% remote learning in the future, there will be tonnes of modernizations introduced to improve the learning experience ... so we shouldn't just give up on the notion of remote learning because of the current experience ... it can be made a WHOLE lot better, if people put their minds together and tackle the current challenges.
Apples to oranges comparison. Auto workers in the private sector are employed by companies that can pack up and take their business where ever they want. Teachers belong to public sector unions, employed by the government. When was the last time you saw a government of any political party play hardball with the teachers?Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
With on-line you won't need as many teachers assistance or special childhood educators in the class.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
You also don't need to decrease the teacher student ratio to accommodate class sizes...much easier to have 30-35 kids per Zoom Class...like teachers used to be able to handle. This crap about class sizes is a job creator fantasy invented by the unions.
As with anything, technology makes things easier.
(caveat: a lot depends on what grades you're holding up for argument sake..big difference between 1-3, 4-6, 7-8, 9-12 etc )
Lots of speculation on how this "works" but how many of you are at home with young kids actually trying to live through it daily? This is my second time around. I was off from April to September last year, looks like it'll be the same this year.
It might look good on paper and some kids might take to it really well, but with kids under 10 not much gets accomplished in the day during class times. I have a daughter (13) who does well with online but isn't overly social at school. My son is nearly 10 and listening to his sessions in the morning is enough to make me want to pull out my hair. Teacher has to remind kids to get out of their bed and pay attention, turn the video back on or parents will be called, WiFi problems, kids unnecessarily stressed about technical problems over which they have no control. As Mark put it above, it's crude and has potential to work better, but many kids aren't going to learn well with it. There's no flow, and teachers have almost no control over virtual classrooms full of young kids.
Not to mention, online schooling puts other parents out of work, not just teachers. While it might work for older kids in the future, it will never work properly for young kids and parents from what I've seen.
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In our neck of the woods, there are students who aren't able to participate in online learning because they have no source (or reliable source) of internet provider. Teachers are preparing packages that these students can pick up at school and take home to study on their own. Until there is reliable internet for everyone in the province, online learning won't include all students.
That's why I said there's a caveat on what grades your talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by GW11
Both my wife and I took extended courses way back in the 80s. She took 3/4 of her BSc from a University in Alberta. It's been done for many years.
Some old guys might remember those courses that uses to be on cassett tapes..I took my grade 13 physics while I was away for 6 months.
It's going to get even easier now as kids get exposed to it in the earlier grades, they will be fine with it in later years...most high school subjects can be done on-line. Home-schoolers have been doing it long before Zoom !!
Sound like a great reason to look into Elon Musk's Starlink ..satellite internet !!Quote:
Originally Posted by delmer
Equate online learning to taking your boaters exam.... Everyone passes, but not too much learning takes place.
Good Point. That the scary part, everybody seem to be passing as it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
I don't believe virtual learning is the way of the future.
Kids need interaction and people skills, its not all jobs that you sit behind a computer for your whole shift.
Sorry but that means the past 15 years has been a dismal failure and it has not been. On the contrary it is working very well, it is primary the teachers that can not adjust.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Hunter
For most kids it isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
I disagree for most it is and some not, high school better learn fast because all of University and College is gone that way, so your saying we should make sure they are not ready?? In school they expected I would be at best a minimum wage person yet here I a DBA / Programmer Analyst for 18 years now, go figure (I'm not cheap either). Kid's will learn and will learn much faster.
Should we take away from them the chance to learn faster or keep them under the rest of the world and make sure they are not ready.
Crap I took typing and my son types wayyy faster then me, they will learn unless some want to hold them back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
My point is that as each sector reduces in size,so will employment. Autoworkers thought they were indispensable the same way teachers do,now. Their union kept banging the drum for more and more until eventually,it collapsed. The same thing will happen with the public sector. We can't be oblivious to the fact that since the early 1990's,public service employment has been reduced by almost 75% despite the efforts of leftist governments and public sector unions to prop it up,hence,the wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth from the teacher's union's attack ads we're seeing today. The writing is on the wall. The education sector is about to shrink considerably more than it already has.Quote:
Originally Posted by delmer
There is a big difference between online learning for elementary/secondary school students and post-secondary students/adults and it comes down to motivation. In theory post secondary students are much more motivated and want to be there. If these post-secondary students need to be "prepped" for online learning then someone failed them along the way. Read the material then do the work...it's not that difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
Grade school kids need physical guidance and presence in order for them to learn properly as they get distracted easily.
Impossible to bring them back into focus on a tiny zoom computer monitor when there is 30 of them online all at once.
Bad enough trying to have them heading into the proper direction in a soccer game....lol
Been there ....seen that....lol
thattts not 100% true.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
alot of classes have actually been cut a little smaller for online learning. i would assume it also depends on what grade/age group you are talking about tho.
i have cousins who are still in elementary school, when they had to switch to online classes they had less kids in each session.
i also guess it depends on the school board and how they runs things as well.
I never said once that inside school will completely go away. Grades 1 - 6 will be inside class. School with some teachers will always be needed because of the social aspect kid's need to learn to work together and we don't want everyone to become anti social. But let's face school from home is very possible. Classes can be taught from home especially math, sciences, English. I see kid's needing to go to school to do biology and chemistry labs, shop and cooking classes. I see a time coming soon where the teacher population can be reduced easily by 25-35%.
Mostly for grades 9-12 where kid's are old enough to stay home by there selves.
Kid's will adjust overtime, 90% of school to begin with is the social aspect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakezilla
But with this latest generation, they can be sitting at the same table and they don't talk or make eye contact anymore..they just text each other. There is little to no human interaction anymore. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
There is more to getting kids to learn especially high school kids to learn then teaching curriculum.... Without building a relationship with some students learning won't take place...some can only do well with that face to face interaction.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
So Mommy or Daddy has to stay home? How will they be able to make payment on their million dollar home?Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
A 14 year old needs a baby sitter???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Hunter
A 14 year old can't be expected to take on the responsibility of looking after their younger sibling, making sure they attend their virtual classes, feeding them meals, all while attending their own school day as well now can they?Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
But hey, I'm not sure why people argue with you at all, you haven't been wrong since 1997 or something like that right?
Deer Hunter - believe me, we didn't expect to be forced into a position of 1.5 incomes when we've built our life on 2, and we don't have anywhere near a million dollar home. We can make it work for a while, but it isn't sustainable. You're probably going to have scores of people moving your way within the next few years.
Easy enough to joke about when you aren't losing a few hundred a week I suppose.
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Sorry, I didn’t know we were talking about a certain age group.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
Sorry, I wasn’t joking??? It’s a serious problem. My point, make it a $300,000 or a $600,000 is the same if your already struggling to make ends meet and one parent has to stay home. Nothing funny about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by GW11
Anyone wanting to move to northern Ontario is welcome, we have a workforce shortage.
Sorry if my post came out wrong, it wasn’t my intention.
I guess its hard to follow these threads when your not on here at all times.
I got you now, no worries. Yeah it's easy enough to misinterpret tone in these posts, I took your point the wrong way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Hunter
I'd love to move up your way, been working on convincing my wife to put up with a longer winter and she can quit her job and stay home instead. She currently makes more money than I do and has a harder job to leave, so it's my job to stay home. It has its upside too, especially during turkey season and once the pool is open.
The bubble is going to burst on quite a few families because parents of younger children are having to stay home. School needs to be in person for more than just the sake of the quality of learning, or we'll go back to the days one income families. That might not be such a bad thing in the long run.
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All good GW11.
I have a bad habit in not taking the time to one finger type (lol) my complete thoughts.
Two working professionals can do very good in Northern Ontario. Problem if your not from around here, you lose the family support which might strain the relation.
I changed oil in my truck Thursday and talked to a young man that was there a long time working full time. Now he has to take every second week off and go on unemployment to be able to meet joint custody responsibilities and take care of his two young kids. He’s going behind every month.
Yes my parents generation of one income provider might come back around?
Crazy times.
It would just be nice if a 2nd income was optional, not mandatory. I grew up in a time when most wives stayed home until the kids were self sufficient and she could work out of the house. Back then a guy working full time at the gas station could buy a home to raise his family.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Hunter
What we have now is just nuts !!
Did I say anything about taking care of younger siblings? anyone under a certain age would attend school. Wow is that hard to figure out?
If a 14 year old cannot manage themselves at home the family has real issues.
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Originally Posted by GW11
There are more than just a few of them that come from families that have issues. How do you think online learning will help them. Just something to think about......Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
There are some students that would rather be at school because it feels a lot safer and welcoming then what they have at home.... You seem to think there is only one way to do things. You must look at the bigger picture. Not all kids are the same, not all family environments are the same, they, we all could use a helping hand, especially those kids that, through no fault of their own, have issues whether it be learning or social. Online learning doesn't fix that.
Your arguments are always difficult to figure out, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
You brought up the idea that 14 year olds don't need babysitters, which for the most part is true, but that sure leaves a heck of a lot of families with children younger than that. How do they get through online learning when both parents are essential workers?
That means they can't work from home, just so we're clear.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GW11
Some people that work from home or don't have young kids at home from school don't get the reality of what's going on.
Easy for others to criticize when in doesn't effect them or their means of earning a living.
Attachment 41738
I said younger children would be in school.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GW11
If you read back through the entire thread, it appears you're also saying the primary teachers just need to adjust, and you're giving the overall impression that kids should be engaged in regular online learning at some point before grade 9, which just isn't realistic. If I misunderstood that (it wouldn't be the first time in this thread), my apologies.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
Realistically, it has to be in class 100% of the time until high school for society to function, or a fundamental shift has to occur, like reverting to one income families.
In any case, maybe I'm just giving you a hard time because I'm bummed about being cooped up with the kids again for a few months and had the time on my hands to pick a fight. I can't complain too much... at least it's spring. If only the weather would cooperate a bit.
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Weather is definitely not cooperating or I would have been out camping in the bush, next weekend doesn't look any better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GW11
Kids do not play outside nearly as much as they used to.They watch TV-Play video games-they are on Smartphones-Youtube-Facebook...You name it.
Kids do not socialize as much as they used to, one on one,even in real life settings-they text.
Kids are exponentially loosing touch with nature and the environment,great majority sees nature in City parks.
Kids wills stop going to the school(one of the greatest means of socializing-learning human behavior in big groups,full of non related ppl + lacking adults as models of authority of"other kind").
Kids will come out from home schooling Computer rich and Life poor !
We are heading FAST to the Brave New World!
[QUOTE We are heading FAST to the Brave New World![/QUOTE]
I look at it as SINKING fast?
Transhumanism is their ultimate goal. By design and no accident.Quote:
Originally Posted by gbk
Social engineering now occurring at break neck speed.
Part of the Great Reset and global agenda.
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/...ut-should-they
https://i.imgur.com/aKoZcma.png
Absolutely. Forget about owning, I can't believe the prices for rental properties, even rural. I can't understand why people would throw away $1500+ a month plus utilities for a crappy rental property. I'm guessing they don't have the down payment to purchase, or don't want the responsibility of maintaining one.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
I come from that era also.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
We weren't rich but had a happy childhood.
I think there was less peer pressure, as all families were in the same boat.
Teachers will be eliminated as as profession.
https://www.facebook.com/BLNewsMedia...2712103697201/
In the Maritimes most families I knew had dual incomes, so it is nothing new. Although my mom was in the house, she ran a daycare as well.
Every person I knew both there parents worked. Even when my parents were you both parents worked at various times.
That was a different time. A time when you had the neighbour watching out for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
There was a village watching out for you, we don't have that anymore.
I like (sarcasm) at the end of the videos how they are looking for donations.... If anyone thinks kids will learn more by getting taught by a computer, they are mistaken. Computers are not teachers, they are just a great learning resource.Quote:
Originally Posted by WillieBeno
It's still like that in NB, everyone watches out for each others kids, not so much in Ontario, however in my community it's almost like NB.
When I first moved here the next door neighbour came over to say hi and his wife brought us a pie. I almost fainted.
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Originally Posted by fratri
Round and round she goes. And what those in public service refuse to see, acknowledge, consider. Is that they and their Unions are their own worst enemies.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Name a Ministry that hasn't and isn't being gutted and/or doesn't have glaring problems like healthcare. In almost all cases, when you get down to brass tacks, the problem and solution is related to headcount. Just consider the MNRF, problems and issues there and their budgets since the 1990s. Given the importance of climate change, conservation, etc, etc. Where does the left think the tens of billions needed to shore up that ministry is going to be found?
Wynne, used to brag ( or whine) that Ontario was the leanest public service in Canada in response to Hudaks plans to reduce a lot, primarily through attrition ( which speaks to top heavy, long in tenure lifers, maxing/capping renumeration). And she was right. However the metric she used was headcount. Ontario has the, or one of the leanest Public Services. The fewest/smallest headcount.......Answers to the dozens of problems, issues, severity, priorities? There's only one. Increased headcount.
Problem: Wall
Public servants and Unions, who can't accept or see that the aggregate cost per person (head) is way too much.
Unions:
Do have a job, however for the last 30 years, they have become way too political and way too powerful. In their eyes, each of them, are the most important service/entity in the province. No other ministry, no other public servant, no other tax paying peon matters. Since Bob Rae and Rae days, it's been a constant, never ending battle for control at Queens Park and for public opinion/sympathy. Bob Rae, Harris, McGuinty, Wynne, Ford.
Major problems and one common denominator. Will the education unions and teachers pause to allow that basic truth and something that's taught in math and statistics register?
Nope.
So once again, a budget is being earmarked for reductions. God forbid....And they are taking to the airwaves, pulling on heart strings for public sympathy. For Ford, that means votes.......
Ironic, they are causing Ford of using the pandemic to politicize the issue, capitalize. Scuze me? What are they doing? And let's ignore the fact they are beating the drums, during the pandemic when so many tax peons are paying steep prices. Has a single teacher, principal, any other under "Education" lost a single nights sleep stressing over bills since March 2020?
JB, I know you like to pick on the public service but you can say the same damn thing about other unions as well. The auto industry being the most glaring example.
The auto unions should be text book lessons on what NOT to do in every human resource/labor relations courses in learning institutions that teach it.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
Sawbill, it’s not “picking on them”. It’s calling a spade a spade. And unlike many, or most I am usually successful (not always), able to put the bullseye where it belongs. On the unions, not those that belong to them....
Private Unions.
Your right, they too have long histories of both corruption (Teamsters?) and being their own worst enemies. Pricing themselves out of jobs.
All unions, whether public or private, have also done a lot of good for people and blue collar workers. Without them, who knows how safe work places might be or not be. There is also, no arguement, they are responsible for raising wages and standards of living. Corporate greed is real too....
To put this in perspective, and contextual to 2020/2021.
In December, five men lost their lives in work place accidents. Five construction workers in one month.
How much press and fanfare did they get.......
/crickets
But there are two key, differences. Auto unions for example. When they rebel, they hold their employer hostage, not tax payers. And consumers always have the choice. They aren’t threatened with jail time for deciding to buy Kia, instead of GM......need an electrician? To fix your house, or maintain your plant? You can hire a private master electrician, or unionized. Their respective cost, is a choice for the buyer.
And private unions, be they CAW or any other. Arent imbedded in Queens Park, pulling strings. Don’t have all politicians/parties quaking in their boots afraid to do what’s needed....All three parties, major problems. One common denominator.
Why are 800,000 tax paying Ontarians without GPS?
Why did McGuinty/Wynne stay in power so long, despite so many scandals, brain cramps, and much more...
Why can’t EAs, ECEs, PSWs, and many more low hanging fruit not get the time of day, or a cup of coffee...
why do we have cute, PC buzzwords to describe people having to choose between feeding their kids, or paying energy bills. “Energy Poverty”
why don’t we have anywhere near enough COs?
and on and on and on.
Because private Unions?
Lets to a thought experiment.
It could be argued that if you get paid by the government your vote could be seen as a conflict of interest.
What would Ontario look like if the various public service workers groups and unions could no longer hold the provincial government hostage with their votes and smear campaigns?
Could argue the same conflict of interest about those on welfare or other government assistance.
Voting for lower taxes is not the same as voting for a bigger paycheck.
“A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.”
This statement is attributed to being penned by Alexander Tytler, a Scottish born British attorney, over 200 years ago.
Yes JakeZ. Everyone wants their piece of the pie. Do not people vote for parties that will do the most for them. Everyone, from CEO’s on Bay Street, to civic employees, to developers, to waiters, to those on government assistance. I don’t know of anyone who would vote for a political party that they think,would hurt their bottom line. Guess everyone is just bad people.
As usual you completely missed the point. The people aren't bad, people are going to people. The system is broken. When you can vote yourself someone else's money you will reach a point where it is not sustainable anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
Oh I get the point all right. . . Changing laws or policy , always benefits someone, monetarily. Do conservative developers not benefit from MZO's? Is that not why they support the cons? More money for them ? Every segment of society , wants a slice, and not enough to go around, unless everyone takes a smaller piece. For the sake of discussion.. Operating room RN earns, lets say 120 grand, constant rotating shift work. Unionized plumber, same 120, double time ++, if after hours. Some say, that RN earns to much, because she is paid with tax dollars. I don't know about you but I would think most Ontarians would want an operating room nurse to be paid as much as a plumber. I want a cop to be paid as much as the guy who installs vinyl windows. ( Friend installs windows, works hard, makes 100 grand.) How do we facilitate that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakezilla
No you don't get it and your answer proves it....try again.
Oh I do.......System is broken...... All political parties promise their base, that they will make it better for THEM. Got to work with what we have....or wait for the reset.
Just like the gun ban who has benefited from the gun ban .Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
Anyone?
So far lawn mower 1 vs AR 15 0 in Ontario.
Useless policy's it was a promise to nothing spread by fake fear as we all know the ar 15 does not kill in Canada. Again pets kill more than in Canada
Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk
Back to the original point. When you can vote yourself someone else's money you will reach a point where it is not sustainable anymore.
If we want to fix things, we can start by getting rid of the unions, not just the public service unions but all of them. There are government regulations in place to protect workers health and safety so they are no longer needed for that function. Unions artificially inflate wages above what the free market will support which ends up costing everyone.
I grew up in a small family owned construction business. It always made me chuckle when the super pro union guys and even union stewards didn't use union labor on their personal construction projects because the union companies were too expensive. The rules change when you are paying the bill.
FF.. Way off topic but I will attempt to answer. Many Canadians are in favour of banning some guns. Some , want to ban all guns. The majority of Canadians do not care about gun ownership. That is why the Libs, brought it in. It appeals to many of their base, ( even some cons),. Will it work, not bloody likely, but the average voter really does not understand that. That is what political parties do , promise to enact policy, that gives the most voters what they deem important. Even if it will not work, they can say they tried. Yes it is sad, that most people ,and all political parties, put their own wants and needs, (agenda), over the needs of the country as a whole.
I think what you are trying to say is that most citiots would favor a gun ban because they listen to politicians lying to them saying it will make their communities safer and that there is no need for citizens to own an AR-15 or a pistol. Talk to rural Canadians and you will get a completely different story.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
One person one vote. The party will go where the votes dictate.... 100 voters in the city say no to AR 15s..... 1 rural voters say yes. Who do they, and who should they listen to? The 100 or the 1 ? It's a numbers game, always has been.
....and that is why Canada is sliding going down the toilet. As a country, Canada is a 'has been' country.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
I seriously doubt that this will help.... Can barely get by now with all of today's costs, I can't imagine it being easier without union wages or benefits in today's Canada.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakezilla
Because the majority of voters get what they voted for, not the minority? Absurd. And before anyone says that the 'majority', of voters ,do not usually vote for the party that wins, true, in a 3 + party system, that has happened ...continuously.. It's about the 'seats' won.Quote:
Originally Posted by 410001661
Public service Unions are to politics here in Ontario and policy for the betterment of all.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishfood
As the NRA is to bringing in much needed change there.
It is simply not possible to view the NRA as a major problem, and PS unions not. Or vice versa ( defend the NRA but see PS unions as self serving, powerful special interest lobby group, whose money and clout rules) to the detriment of the majority.
First past the post, also plays a large role. Making the squeaky wheel that much more powerful, than their actual weight ( % of the population)
"First past the post" is an archaic electoral system that worked 80 years ago,but,due to changing demographics and population concentration,it's a system that's decades out of date.
Yep Trimmer. And one other related problem if you will, is that politicians, special interest, be they unions or other. Is that they know it too and use that to their advantage, gain, and detriment to others...they take full advantage of an archaic system, and it’s exploitable holes.
No differently, than a gambler that cheats at a Vegas casino or very wealthy person exploits weaknesses in tax code.
No, it seems the majority of the voters can be bought with free handouts ... and they refuse to believe that they won't have to pay that back at some stage, somehow.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
That is a broad generalization. I know lots of trades people that saw their disposable income decreased after becoming unionized. Additional deductions on pay cheques to pay for union reps, and business administrators, & bureaucrats, and time off (not working) between large union projects and while on strike. I was in IBEW Local 105 for 12 years and at best they acted like clowns. Union meetings were piss ups and the old boys (stuck in the good old days) would rather work 6 months a year and sit on their the rest of the year. I was in a small company that used all IBEW propaganda for fire starter. I never spent a day on the picket line and we went through 2 strikes - I left the tools and got into electrical sales shortly afterwards.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
I do not think there is any real reason to have a union if you work in an office or a public servant - there are checks and balances in place for that. Listen to the teachers union moan and whine.......have they ever had a provincial government that they got along with? NO
You seem to think only Union people make good income.
And please remember it is the public who is paying you, not the government. SO when you ask for an increase you are asking if I mind taxes going up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
Maybe voters should decide how much all public servants earn.
No need for unions pissing and moaning..
Close imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
But not as a result of what the public thinks they are worth. But rather what the tax paying public can afford. Ask millionaires in the US where they fall, and many will say/think middle class. Same here.
what they can afford, relative to incomes/taxes. Aka what the masses can afford. Where can a person begin?
Median incomes. As is, the median duo is around 85k.Dead horse, that’s been beaten, flogged, tarred and feathered.
4100, some of the unions got along quite well with McGuinty. That is, until private got kicked in the groin, (like today), and an extremely left wing economist kicked the lid off the can the the love stopped...
It’s unconscionable that Unions are bellyaching today. Are they incapable of looking around? Remembering peons and Energy poverty, or so many other things that could be mentioned like not having $ for PSWs, LTCs, and so very very much more.
Nope, they are the most important people in the world. And there are airwaves to spend on, an election around the corner.
I believe the proposed number is 800 million. Which is what 1% of the ministries budget?
I wonder how many PSWs, COs, that might hire. Or given the absurd amount of debt we are now in....which was already brutal and a fiscal nightmare
This is non-union and a construction situation. At the current sqft rates for finishing drywall, piece work when broken down to an hourly wage, if you are good you can average $90/hr. That is not supplying materials that is labor only. One still needs to pay taxes, CPP and EI out of that and there is no pension. Taking out taxes, CPP, EI (30-35%) and $5/hr for pension it works out to about $53 to $58/hr take home. These are rural Southern Ontario rates, not sure what they are in the big cities.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
All my other buddies in trades that run their own businesses or do piece work make more than they would in a union setting. They are all hard workers and none of them would survive in a union setting because it is in the unions interest to drag the job out so everyone stays employed as long as possible. In the private piece work setting, the harder you work, the faster the job gets done, the more you make. There is more money in the private sector than a union setting but you have to be willing to work.
Unions prop up the lazy worker, drag down the productive worker and in the end reduce productivity. There is no incentive to do better in a union setting and that ultimately hinders the operation of the free market.
So even though the union wage is less than the piece work wage the union wage is still considered inflated when you account for the reduced productivity. The piece worker makes more per hour but completes the job in less time which will ultimately make him the more cost effective choice. These artificially inflated wages and reduced productivity from the unions result in higher cost of goods and services for everyone, union and non-union alike. So if you think things are too expensive, start looking at unions.
I used to get rained on pretty bad for saying this when I went to work in the private sector auto industry,but,if companies and corporations treated their employees with honor,fairness and dignity,there wouldn't be a need for unions.
Agree 100%Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Years ago, our company was ahead of its time. We could dress casually, unless meeting clients. No such thing as sick days, or watching the clock, late one day? No problem. Busy the next? You leave when your done...no such thing as OT either. or performance reviews. In 20 years I didn’t have one review. Vacation days weren’t tracked, nor squabbled over. Nor given to those based on seniority. your adults, work it out fairly.
Get a call for a sick kid or any kind of life hiccups. No problem, take the day or as much time as you need. Work from home when needed or wanted. What mattered was the bottom line and doing our jobs. Virtually no one abused it. That was before 2000.
When 2008 hit, all of us above certain base salaries gave up huge chunks of our bonuses. None more so than the execs. No one was laid off, especially those that could least afford it.
Times have been changing, a lot of companies, now have day care, some or all the above, and more. Think Virgin where he says, take care of your people and they will take care of business.
To say, companies treat their people poorly, was true. Far less so these days.
I spent a year with OPSEU. It was horrible, people treated like babies, and worse. And worst off those higher up the food chain, threw those lower down under the bus. All the time. Table scraps
Myself personally, I have never had a company treat me poorly, One job as a kid I quit, even Lobster fishing when I was 19 the Captain made me take time off to go home for Christmas with pay. All my jobs in computers I worked for good companies and had a great working relationship where I was trusted and could do what I wanted.
I agree but without unions this would probably be even worse...Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
I think that used to be true at one time, around here there’s enough work, if your not treated right you just move along, it don’t take long for the word to get out and its usually the moron that gets the boot. Unions were huge around here at one time, not so much anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
I have to wonder greatwhite if you have ever had the opportunity to teach. Maybe 5 hours of class room time doesn't sound like much. But having done a bit supply teaching, and other corporate types of instruction. You have a number of unscheduled hours in which to setup you lesson plan, prepare teaching resources, and reviewing and revising the material you teach. A general rule of thumb is 2 to 3 hours of preparation time for each hour of actual class time. So if 5 hours of teaching time looks like small potatoes to you, add on the other 10 to 15 hours of preparation time. Teaching is not quite like extemporaneous preaching, done properly a lot of forethought and preparation has to go into it. Teachers just don't leave the classroom, drive home, have supper and after supper kick back and watch television. There are of course some which have time after classes to do a bit of preparation before actually leaving the school for home. If you walk pass a school after school hours. You might pause to wonder why the teacher's parking lot is still full of their cars. Could be the teachers are working on their next day's lessons? It can be that teacher who have been teaching a subject for years have less preparation time, but they still have to go over there material and make necessary revision, and line up any resources that may be need.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut
Two friends in NB that teach and met one person here who was doing construction and left to become a teacher.
LOL and yes all became teachers because of the Perks, they make great money summers off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
GW . Simple question. No offence meant. Why would someone with 4 years of uni and a year of teachers college, work in construction to begin with? Unless they were some sort of engineer on the job. Prefer manual labour over mind work?
He did construction first became a shop teacher later
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
Teachers covers a broad spectrum of grades and courses so you have to be honest and concede a lot of teachers have it pretty good with lots of down time or compensatory time off. ie: some high school teachers only have 2-3 classes a day teaching a course with a curriculum and lesson plans that haven't changed since I was a kid (English for example..kids still must read the same books I had to. )
College and Universities are the same...few classes with assistants doing the bulk of the work.
.
Fishermcan I should add how I met this guy, I had seen an add for some firewood for sale not far from my home, made a deal for it and when I met the guy we got talking.
It was easy to tell the guy knew construction and we talked about it for a while and then he mentioned he actually no longer did construction and had become a shop teacher.
For the reasons I said Great pay, summers, one of the best pensions in the world.
Turned out he was my sons shop teacher. I got 10 cords of firewood for 200 bucks.
Haven't been in the job market I see....those credentials 'might ' land you a night managers job at a fast food joint here in Ottawa. A city with two universities that pumps out 1000's of bright young kids with degrees in Anthropology, History, Woman's studies etc etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
Guys who can get onto a job site will make twice a much money in jobs requiring brawn over brains.
So teachers are not overpaid? Can they be, if you can make twice the money doing manual labour? That one extra year of teachers college ,separates those bugger flippers , from those with degrees, that are further trained for a specific job. Like a GP, MD spending 2 more years at med school , to become a surgeon. Extra years , extra compensation.
Part of the problem maybe it takes quite a bit of time to work into a full time teaching contract, There are just so many schools and seemingly a surplus of those wanting to teach. In some boards it might take four or more years to get a permanent contract, until then your teaching opportunities are piece meal. In construction the pay and availability of work opportunities can provide you with a more adequate source of income.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
You don't stop working because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut
Well having taught and assisted in teaching many classes on a variety of topics, yes there is prep time, the FIRST time you teach it. After that maybe a few minutes before the class. Full benefits, huge pension, regular raises and increases based on years experience, summers off, then the pay....
https://www.ontariosunshinelist.com/positions
Let's see .... the title, number and year. (I filtered for 2020 only)
Secondary Teacher 31,506 2020
Teacher 17,538 2020
Elementary Teacher 13,905 2020
Teacher - Elementary 3,426 2020
Secondary Teacher - Department Head 1,868 2020
Secondary Teacher, Curriculum Chair 589 2020
Teacher - English as a Second Language - Elementary 339 2020
Teacher - Mathematics 271 2020
Secondary Teacher - Regular Classroom 267 2020
Special Education Teacher 229 2020
Teacher - English 228 2020
Teacher - French Immersion 215 2020
Teacher - Science 181 2020
Teacher - Special Education In-School Support Program 180 2020
Consultant Teacher 179 2020
Teacher - Library 170 2020
Teacher - Guidance 168 2020
Teacher - Planning Time - Physical Education 157 2020
Elementary Teacher Special Education 138 2020
Teacher - Business 136 2020
Teacher - French Core 125 2020
Teacher - Co-operative Education 124 2020
Elementary Teacher, Consultant 113 2020
Teacher - Planning Time - Music 113 2020
All earning more than double the Ontario average, I would say they should make atleast the high school an hour longer each day and freeze the pay for 5 years would be a good start in education reform in Ontario. That extra hour with the same curriculum would allow for actual teaching, not what my kids described as NOT teaching and just handing out some papers and would also likely reduce the kids free time to get in trouble.
I know alot of teachers and several of them are quite blunt that they hate the kids, hate the work and are only there to take the summer off, there needs to be some kind of review system in place instead of a seniority and union protection of uselessness! I have also seen that teachers often end up as pets or not and the pets get the repeat courses and good courses and the not pets are always changing courses and get the trouble classes. I guess just over 2 years ago I listened to a woman talking to her friend about her teaching job in the line at the grocery, she hadn't taught any courses in her field in over a year, got dumped on and it sounded like nothing she wanted, others I know that are pets and do subs get constant work and others get none.
The educational system is full of cronyism/favouritism, incompetence and is failing the students AND the teachers often.
This isn't new, a programmer I worked with 25 years ago quit teaching because after 5 years he hadn't taught a course in math (his major) and it sounded like he was in the sh** group for the courses he was given and another that had to appeal because he was asked to teach shop classes and wasn't qualified, that would possibly be dangerous to the kids?