Hunter reporting penalties increase

https://oodmag.com/hunter-reporting-penalties-increase/

The financial penalty for failing to submit a mandatory hunter report two or more times for a species in Ontario is increasing.

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Originally Posted by MeghanOOD

https://oodmag.com/hunter-reporting-penalties-increase/

The financial penalty for failing to submit a mandatory hunter report two or more times for a species in Ontario is increasing.

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Probably the complete wrong way to go, if you start messing around with hunters and imposing increasing penalties, your not going to get accurate results, probably the opposite.

Do we not have enough chit to put up with as hunters to have to now worry about complying with more petty regulation.

I know I will not have to worry about a Moose questioner return this year, as I am not buying a license. Kill to birds with one stone, no money to the government and no additional money as a penalty for not filling out their paperwork demands.

This whole this in BACKWARDS, we are the taxpayers WHO PAY THE WAGES TO THESE FOLKS, THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO KNOW HOW TO MANAGE AND CONTROL THE POPULATION AND ISSUE TAGS.

Why is the burden on us HUNTERS to do everything for the so called MANAGERS.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Probably the complete wrong way to go, if you start messing around with hunters and imposing increasing penalties, your not going to get accurate results, probably the opposite.

Do we not have enough chit to put up with as hunters to have to now worry about complying with more petty regulation.

I know I will not have to worry about a Moose questioner return this year, as I am not buying a license. Kill to birds with one stone, no money to the government and no additional money as a penalty for not filling out their paperwork demands.

This whole this in BACKWARDS, we are the taxpayers WHO PAY THE WAGES TO THESE FOLKS, THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO KNOW HOW TO MANAGE AND CONTROL THE POPULATION AND ISSUE TAGS.

Why is the burden on us HUNTERS to do everything for the so called MANAGERS.

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Now,just hold on a minute. If those bureaucrats can't get data from us,that means they have to get it themselves in the form of expensive surveys so they don't have to come out from behind their cushy office desks and that costs big bucks which we ultimately have to pay for in the form of increased fees for everything. Those people could screw up The Lord's Prayer (if they knew it),so,let's keep giving them all the data they need. Then,we don't need to deal with the fall-out.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Now,just hold on a minute. If those bureaucrats can't get data from us,that means they have to get it themselves in the form of expensive surveys so they don't have to come out from behind their cushy office desks and that costs big bucks which we ultimately have to pay for in the form of increased fees for everything. Those people could screw up The Lord's Prayer (if they knew it),so,let's keep giving them all the data they need. Then,we don't need to deal with the fall-out.

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LOL But we do deal with the fall out, screwed up Moose system:scream:, screwed up bait harvest system,:scream: probably should not go on, I am starting to get depressed.:whacked:

A request to submit some info on your hunt that literally takes 10 minutes to fill out is too much of a burden? You remember to buy your permits, hours spent driving back and forth, hours spent in the field yet filling out a form is too much. Personally the penalties are not enough I'd go even further. Some people just have an inability to just comply to the point maybe they should be told DO NOT SEND A REPORT

If they use the money to good cause...why not?
If they use that money to keep "our"cost down-why not?
If all other Hunting rules and regulations must be adhere to(mostly rightfully so)-why this one is so bad?

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Originally Posted by gbk

If they use the money to good cause...why not?
If they use that money to keep "our"cost down-why not?
If all other Hunting rules and regulations must be adhere to(mostly rightfully so)-why this one is so bad?

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You have a 100 acre cattle farm and you pay a manager a good salary to run the farm for you, your cattle produce offspring during the year, at the end of the year you ask your manager how many of the cattle you can harvest to market. The manager then asks you the employer to go around the farm and count them for him and next year the manager will make a decision based on the employers survey. LOL

The whole point is, if we have so many rules and regulations already, why do they have to pile on and add more of them.

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

A request to submit some info on your hunt that literally takes 10 minutes to fill out is too much of a burden? You remember to buy your permits, hours spent driving back and forth, hours spent in the field yet filling out a form is too much. Personally the penalties are not enough I'd go even further. Some people just have an inability to just comply to the point maybe they should be told DO NOT SEND A REPORT

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Or don't fill in any but end up on the phone for 20 minutes 1-800-288-1155.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

You have a 100 acre cattle farm and you pay a manager a good salary to run the farm for you, your cattle produce offspring during the year, at the end of the year you ask your manager how many of the cattle you can harvest to market. The manager then asks you the employer to go around the farm and count them for him and next year the manager will make a decision based on the employers survey. LOL

The whole point is, if we have so many rules and regulations already, why do they have to pile on and add more of them.

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Ya that's how management works
Manager: while you are out feeding, watering and mucking out the stalls please do a head count and report back to me your finding.
Employee: sure boss no problem

Manager : great see you tomorrow
or
Manager: while you are out feeding, watering and mucking out the stalls please do a head count and report back to me your finding.
Employee: Hey I do enough 'round here go count your own damm cows!
Manager : great, don't bother coming in tomorrow

or lets bring it closer to home remember when you said
"[COLOR=#000000]How do I know this, well my whole career as a Police officer both in Toronto , and Glasgow, Scotland was based on "walking the beat as a community based officer" I spent a FULL 15 years in the worse housing project area in my zone. In that time period I knew everybody a COP needed no know, including their extended families. Getting a criminal arrest every two days was the normal and it got to the stage where I just needed to identify suspects simply by description or nickname and I could get arrests from reports other COPS had submitted."
Would like too know if your supervisor said
"You spent alot of time walking the beat and getting to know problem areas could you submit a report outlining the areas were we can improve"
Would your response still be you get paid the big bucks if you want the info go get it yourself?

"Would like too know if your supervisor said
"You spent alot of time walking the beat and getting to know problem areas could you submit a report outlining the areas were we can improve"
Would your response still be you get paid the big bucks if you want the info go get it yourself?"

Supervisors never asked anything, they were only to happy to get willing boots on the ground. Sure I spent a lot of time but it was far cheaper than a scout car and more effective.
Nobody asked for ways to improve as our presence there was already deemed by management to be an improvement, hence the investment.
One COP can walk a beat and learn nothing , another can have initiative and gather information.
My information gathering, equaled arrests, which equaled overtime and court time.
Therefore my hard gained information stayed in my computer (brain) when I decided to use it or not, real simple really.
The management did not need information, they just needed results which they got. No questions asked.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Now,just hold on a minute. If those bureaucrats can't get data from us,that means they have to get it themselves in the form of expensive surveys so they don't have to come out from behind their cushy office desks and that costs big bucks which we ultimately have to pay for in the form of increased fees for everything. Those people could screw up The Lord's Prayer (if they knew it),so,let's keep giving them all the data they need. Then,we don't need to deal with the fall-out.

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First reply to Meghan thread , there must be a few of us around LOL

Contrary to the tv hunters, and social media participants, hunting is still an intensely personal thing to the majority of hunters. Most hunters choose not to disclose exact locations or methods or even harvest details for that matter. There are a few blabbermouths and braggarts but for the most part where, when, and what you did when afield is nobodies business as long as no laws were broken and the hunt was ethical. MNR should get out there and DO THEIR JOB, instead of asking hunters to do it for them. What happened to aerial surveys over winter yarding areas? This should not only be easy and accurate, but also cost effective in this age of technology and drones etc.. The MNR would much rather have an additional income by adding a tax on those who wish to maintain their right to privacy. IT IS THAT SIMPLE.
The MNR has colossally mismanaged the deer and moose herds in Ontario and their reactive strategy of management through enforcement is a dismal failure. Several game species could simply be evaluated by roadside observation. Habitat is continually being threatened by land clearing & the draining of swamps and wetlands, which goes on unchecked in much of Ontario’s farmland. This has resulted in once rich and diverse woodlands be reduced to a few token trees at best. In some areas you can now see from one concession road right thru to the next so game counts should be a breeze with a simple pair of binoculars. This habitat reduction has affected deer populations to the point of crash levels but the MNR has yet to reduce tag limits as this would cut into the revenue stream. I’d suggest they get bent and although I’m no legal expert, I’m wondering how withholding a license for not reporting (the obvious MNR next step) would stand up to a court challenge? No other license system requires reporting of any kind once the fees have been paid and the license granted. What’s next in this nanny state? a report on where I drove, when I drove, what I did, who my passengers or cargo were, so I can renew my DL???

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

You have a 100 acre cattle farm and you pay a manager a good salary to run the farm for you, your cattle produce offspring during the year, at the end of the year you ask your manager how many of the cattle you can harvest to market. The manager then asks you the employer to go around the farm and count them for him and next year the manager will make a decision based on the employers survey. LOL

The whole point is, if we have so many rules and regulations already, why do they have to pile on and add more of them.

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The penalty is not another rule-but upholding/enforcing existing one.
Much like parking tickets for disobeying parking rules.

I can not imagine the cattle manager can do much more then in the example posted(other then counting the herd himself.)
Now-mirroring it to the topic-that would be a major task for the MNRF Management.LOL

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Originally Posted by gbk

The penalty is not another rule-but upholding/enforcing existing one.
Much like parking tickets for disobeying parking rules.

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and if you don't clear them parking tickets yup you can't renew your license.

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Originally Posted by gbk

The penalty is not another rule-but upholding/enforcing existing one.
Much like parking tickets for disobeying parking rules.

I can not imagine the cattle manager can do much more then in the example posted(other then counting the herd himself.)
Now-mirroring it to the topic-that would be a major task for the MNRF Management.LOL

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See post 11 above where a commentator writes his views in the last few sentences and I agree fully with his comments to this increase in fines.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

First reply to Meghan thread , there must be a few of us around LOL

Contrary to the tv hunters, and social media participants, hunting is still an intensely personal thing to the majority of hunters. Most hunters choose not to disclose exact locations or methods or even harvest details for that matter. There are a few blabbermouths and braggarts but for the most part where, when, and what you did when afield is nobodies business as long as no laws were broken and the hunt was ethical. MNR should get out there and DO THEIR JOB, instead of asking hunters to do it for them. What happened to aerial surveys over winter yarding areas? This should not only be easy and accurate, but also cost effective in this age of technology and drones etc.. The MNR would much rather have an additional income by adding a tax on those who wish to maintain their right to privacy. IT IS THAT SIMPLE.
The MNR has colossally mismanaged the deer and moose herds in Ontario and their reactive strategy of management through enforcement is a dismal failure. Several game species could simply be evaluated by roadside observation. Habitat is continually being threatened by land clearing & the draining of swamps and wetlands, which goes on unchecked in much of Ontario’s farmland. This has resulted in once rich and diverse woodlands be reduced to a few token trees at best. In some areas you can now see from one concession road right thru to the next so game counts should be a breeze with a simple pair of binoculars. This habitat reduction has affected deer populations to the point of crash levels but the MNR has yet to reduce tag limits as this would cut into the revenue stream. I’d suggest they get bent and although I’m no legal expert, I’m wondering how withholding a license for not reporting (the obvious MNR next step) would stand up to a court challenge? No other license system requires reporting of any kind once the fees have been paid and the license granted. What’s next in this nanny state? a report on where I drove, when I drove, what I did, who my passengers or cargo were, so I can renew my DL???

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The mandatory survey uncovers information (hunter effort, harvest, and game sightings) that the aerial surveys cannot obtain.

Im not sure why you are so worked up, you’ve probably wilfully divulged more about yourself and your hunting activities on this forum than what the government would even think to ask.

Would you prefer that the government guess what hunters have experienced in order to make management decisions, or is it better to gather and use information obtained directly from hunters. I dunno, it seems like a no-brainer to me.

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Originally Posted by Sam Menard

The mandatory survey uncovers information (hunter effort, harvest, and game sightings) that the aerial surveys cannot obtain.

Im not sure why you are so worked up, you’ve probably wilfully divulged more about yourself and your hunting activities on this forum than what the government would even think to ask.

Would you prefer that the government guess what hunters have experienced in order to make management decisions, or is it better to gather and use information obtained directly from hunters. I dunno, it seems like a no-brainer to me.

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Well Sam I am not actually worked up and the comment you posted is from another hunter who seems more worked up than me.

However I do agree with his position and would add that this is just another way to get tax revenue and it turns off people hunting as its another rule to comply with under threat of punishment.

By threatening hunters you might end up encouraging some folks to submit replies that are less than honest. How does that help to manage the game.

The questions now being posed are getting pretty tricky and its gone from a simple return to an investigative tool for potential prosecutions.

I believe one of the deer questions was what was the day and time of your deer kill or words to that effect. So now your pocking around a few weeks later to gather this information, its easy if you took a photo on a smart phone and can bring it up, if you did not you had better remember or have the old tag nearby.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

However I do agree with his position and would add that this is just another way to get tax revenue and it turns off people hunting as its another rule to comply with under threat of punishment. .

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It be a tax grab if they charged you to submit a report. Most don't have a right to hunt its a privilege that comes with responsibilities namely following the rules and regulations and yes filling out the report is one of them. Choices always come with consequences and that's the fact of life. Choose to fill it out suffer no adverse effects, choose not too pay the penalties or loose your privilege simple as that, with no sinister intent than that

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

The questions now being posed are getting pretty tricky and its gone from a simple return to an investigative tool for potential prosecutions.
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Don't know about deer but with the turkey report its simple questions as to what unit you were in days hunted birds seen and game harvested. Just it would be tricky if your lying as always harder to remember the lies than remembering the truth. In any case if it uncovers a poacher I'd look at it as value added service. The truth will always set you free

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

By threatening hunters you might end up encouraging some folks to submit replies that are less than honest. How does that help to manage the game.

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People are creatures of habit and so either truthful or not they will respond consistently and hence over time trends will emerge. Pretty sure the exact numbers are of little importance but the trend up or down is what they want to monitor. Game management is a long term plan.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

I believe one of the deer questions was what was the day and time of your deer kill or words to that effect. So now your pocking around a few weeks later to gather this information, its easy if you took a photo on a smart phone and can bring it up, if you did not you had better remember or have the old tag nearby.

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Why wait a few weeks later? What stops you from filing that evening or next day while fresh in your recollection? In any case while you still have meat in your possession that tag needs to be readily available anyways.

So with a whole lot more benefits and really don't see any negatives or hardship to comply other than sheer stubbornness I'm OK with the requirement and happy to comply to do my part. Kind of like voting if you don't participate can't really complain after the fact.

One thing kind of cool as an incentive is the chance to win an ATV just for doing the survey.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

One thing kind of cool as an incentive is the chance to win an ATV just for doing the survey.

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forgot about that tooo, Carrot or the Stick some are motivated by different incentives.

"Why wait a few weeks later? What stops you from filing that evening or next day while fresh in your recollection? In any case while you still have meat in your possession that tag needs to be readily available anyways.

So with a whole lot more benefits and really don't see any negatives or hardship to comply other than sheer stubbornness I'm OK with the requirement and happy to comply to do my part. Kind of like voting if you don't participate can't really complain after the fact."


Just adds to my objections, why should I have to run around for them and jump when demanded. I make my return when I get the reminder and not before.

The tag is not with me, its left with the butcher as he needs it while processing, once its processed its junk, so I don't have it.

Why are they now asking questions about the day and time harvested, this has nothing to do with managing the resource and more to do with preventing poaching, but they are not being honest with their questions. IMHO

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

One thing kind of cool as an incentive is the chance to win an ATV just for doing the survey.

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That seems to not have worked for the 14,888 hunters who decided NOT TO REPORT FOR DEER IN THE 2023 MANDATORY QUESTIONNERE ?

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

That seems to not have worked for the 14,888 hunters who decided NOT TO REPORT FOR DEER IN THE 2023 MANDATORY QUESTIONNERE ?

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and hence the stick

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

"Why wait a few weeks later? What stops you from filing that evening or next day while fresh in your recollection? In any case while you still have meat in your possession that tag needs to be readily available anyways.

So with a whole lot more benefits and really don't see any negatives or hardship to comply other than sheer stubbornness I'm OK with the requirement and happy to comply to do my part. Kind of like voting if you don't participate can't really complain after the fact."


Just adds to my objections, why should I have to run around for them and jump when demanded. I make my return when I get the reminder and not before.

The tag is not with me, its left with the butcher as he needs it while processing, once its processed its junk, so I don't have it.

Why are they now asking questions about the day and time harvested, this has nothing to do with managing the resource and more to do with preventing poaching, but they are not being honest with their questions. IMHO

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Are you in favour of protecting poachers? I see it as value added killing 2 birds with one stone. I'd hope it would be in every ones benefit to curtail poaching

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

and hence the stick

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The mixed signals to date are not helping and as of last year 2023 we have 8% still not interested in reporting.


https://www.ofah.org/insider/2021/01...-licence-2021/

https://www.ontario.ca/files/2024-04...n-2024_fix.pdf

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

The mixed signals to date are not helping and as of last year 2023 we have 8% still not interested in reporting.


https://www.ofah.org/insider/2021/01...-licence-2021/

https://www.ontario.ca/files/2024-04...n-2024_fix.pdf

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Its good to see the numbers going up as people understand or just see the advantage of reporting as for the rest at least there will be 8% less hunters out there so should make for more room for the ones who play by the rules.

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

Are you in favour of protecting poachers? I see it as value added killing 2 birds with one stone. I'd hope it would be in every ones benefit to curtail poaching

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Well I see it a very different way.

They dream up this paper tag system and now find that they have opened up a pardoras box , with folks (poachers) using copied tags.

Now realizing they have a problem are back dooring and sneaking in investigative questions in what used to be a simple return for a deer hunter. Not good, not upfront or transparent.

So no I am not if favor of protecting poachers and can see you are posing a rhetorical question, but I hope you are not suggesting that some 14,888 hunters who purchased a license should now be considered potential poachers just because they did not submit a return.

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

Its good to see the numbers going up as people understand or just see the advantage of reporting as for the rest at least there will be 8% less hunters out there so should make for more room for the ones who play by the rules.

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Well I guess I will keep my powder dry and see if the Almighty Government will decide they are willing to forgo the license fees coming in from these hunters who are being bad boys OR take another pragmatic approach.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

They dream up this paper tag system and now find that they have opened up a pardoras box , with folks (poachers) using copied tags.
Now realizing they have a problem are back dooring and sneaking in investigative questions in what used to be a simple return for a deer hunter.

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Yup these are the poachers I was referring too and if the reporting system identifies them all that much better. Another problem solved by the system :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

I hope you are not suggesting that some 14,888 hunters who purchased a license should now be considered potential poachers just because they did not submit a return.

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No they are just guilty of not filing and be subject to the penalties set forth by that transgression. Though if i was a CO those names would be at the top of my list to find out why they didn't file.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Well I guess I will keep my powder dry and see if the Almighty Government will decide they are willing to forgo the license fees coming in from these hunters who are being bad boys OR take another pragmatic approach.

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Kind of cutting your nose off to spite your face eh? I'm sure your fellow hunter's are in full support of your actions while sitting in their stands.
Will be interesting too see if you will keep to your statement in time to come.

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

Yup these are the poachers I was referring too and if the reporting system identifies them all that much better. Another problem solved by the system :thumbup:


No they are just guilty of not filing and be subject to the penalties set forth by that transgression. Though if i was a CO those names would be at the top of my list to find out why they didn't file.



Kind of cutting your nose off to spite your face eh? I'm sure your fellow hunter's are in full support of your actions while sitting in their stands.
Will be interesting too see if you will keep to your statement in time to come.

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Seems there’s a lot of consternation over the nonissue of taking five minutes and doing the mandatory report. Not one of my hunting group have said anything negative about the regulation. But I guess if a hunter is too old to be able to remember when he/she/him/her shot the animal, it could be problematic !!

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

Seems there’s a lot of consternation over the nonissue of taking five minutes and doing the mandatory report. Not one of my hunting group have said anything negative about the regulation. But I guess if a hunter is too old to be able to remember when he/she/him/her shot the animal, it could be problematic !!

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There were "several new questions" I guess I would call it investigative creep. I am sure a few hunters answers might not jive with a tag validated a CO might come across, but it could be a completely

innocent mistake. How exactly does the time and date you dropped a deer have any connection to a mandatory harvest questioner .

If this continues in a few years we will have to report on a whole bunch of questions.

If fully 8% of hunters 14,888 are not happy after 3 or 4 years of continual pushing the issue, maybe the MINISTRY and pen pushers should sort their chit out.

That way the OFAH will not have to intervene on behalf of hunters who just want some common sense injected into the system.

Near everybody I talk to laugh about the simple question HOW MANY DEER DID YOU SEE, so many different answers available to this.

How many I saw with my own eyes . How many did I see on my trail cameras . How many can I say I saw in person or on a camera that I can individually identify. The last one might be the best.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

There were "several new questions" I guess I would call it investigative creep. I am sure a few hunters answers might not jive with a tag validated a CO might come across, but it could be a completely

innocent mistake. How exactly does the time and date you dropped a deer have any connection to a mandatory harvest questioner .

If this continues in a few years we will have to report on a whole bunch of questions.

If fully 8% of hunters 14,888 are not happy after 3 or 4 years of continual pushing the issue, maybe the MINISTRY and pen pushers should sort their chit out.

That way the OFAH will not have to intervene on behalf of hunters who just want some common sense injected into the system.

Near everybody I talk to laugh about the simple question HOW MANY DEER DID YOU SEE, so many different answers available to this.

How many I saw with my own eyes . How many did I see on my trail cameras . How many can I say I saw in person or on a camera that I can individually identify. The last one might be the best.

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Can't phantom the audacity of a mere 8% to force an issue that 92% clearly have no problem with. Think its time for a reality check and get with the program.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

One thing kind of cool as an incentive is the chance to win an ATV just for doing the survey.

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Another nice incentive would be if they shared all survey questions aggregated statistics data including animals seen (currently they only share active hunters)

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Originally Posted by newbiehunter

Another nice incentive would be if they shared all survey questions aggregated statistics data including animals seen (currently they only share active hunters)

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It only takes a few minutes to fill out so I don`t see a problem. I would however like to see a summary spreadsheet of all the data they collect for each WMU, and to know what they do with all this information.

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Originally Posted by grumpygeezer

I would however like to see a summary spreadsheet of all the data they collect for each WMU, and to know what they do with all this information.

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When I worked for the MNR, I recall seeing spreadsheets with all of the information summarized from the surveys… so they have it. Unfortunately, the only data available (Ontario.ca/data) to hunters is a breakdown by year, unit, number of hunters, and harvest by sex.

IMO, it would be worthwhile pursuing the complete data set by contacting the OFAH, your MLA and the Minister of Natural Resources.

On another note, since the MNR doesn’t undertake field surveys to determine deer populations, they rely on information from hunters to guesstimate herd numbers.

https://www.instagram.com/fishwildli...v/?img_index=1

FFF, just for fun, I read that you believe the hunting fringe 8% should toe the government line to keep the 92% happy.
By this logic, the fringe capital letter groups should also toe the line and not openly parade there choices as well.
It works all ways, people make choices and if others are not hurt by them do not force your opinion on them.
John

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Originally Posted by johnjyb

FFF, just for fun, I read that you believe the hunting fringe 8% should toe the government line to keep the 92% happy.
By this logic, the fringe capital letter groups should also toe the line and not openly parade there choices as well.
It works all ways, people make choices and if others are not hurt by them do not force your opinion on them.
John

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There is a difference between expressing your choices which is great and not adhering to public policy. We live in a society where majority rules and once policy is made its your duty to conform.
Now you may be on to something johnjyb so if those 8% feel their life choices somehow limit their ability to file a report I fully encourage them band together and fight for change all the while accepting the consequences of those actions.