Flat-coat Retriever ???

I have been considering getting a dog for quite some time. Primarily to be a companion for me, I want a dog who will also be good as a grouse and duck hunting dog. I have two small grandchildren so any dog that I get must be good with children.

I regularly care for my neighbour's Golden and find the breed to be a great match for me, but a little bigger than I like. I have also considered a Labrador, Springer Spaniel and Brittany.

Several members have given me advice on which breed and breeder would be right for me. I was pretty much decided on a Brittany but am now rethinking that because of some insight one member shared with me.

A breed that I haven't seen mentioned here is the Flat-coat Retriever. Based on my research the past couple of days, it seems this might be the "perfect" dog for me. I would really appreciate any comments or advice from any of you who are familiar with this breed.

Martin

Aquaterra flatcoats nice dogs with some go

Don't know much about the FCR,
but why don't you entertain the thought of a similar dog.. The Dutch Partridge Dog....

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Originally Posted by NorthernGrouse

I have been considering getting a dog for quite some time. Primarily to be a companion for me, I want a dog who will also be good as a grouse and duck hunting dog. I have two small grandchildren so any dog that I get must be good with children.

I regularly care for my neighbour's Golden and find the breed to be a great match for me, but a little bigger than I like. I have also considered a Labrador, Springer Spaniel and Brittany.

Several members have given me advice on which breed and breeder would be right for me. I was pretty much decided on a Brittany but am now rethinking that because of some insight one member shared with me.

A breed that I haven't seen mentioned here is the Flat-coat Retriever. Based on my research the past couple of days, it seems this might be the "perfect" dog for me. I would really appreciate any comments or advice from any of you who are familiar with this breed.

Martin

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Know little about that breed- which says something in itself. Never hear of them winning much- if anything- in retriever trials - which also says something.

Based on all I've read on your search , you may be looking for the impossible dog.

I don't believe a dog that is good on grouse and a duck/goose retriever(particularly late season) has been bred yet. They are in two classes - bird dogs and retrievers for goose /duck for a reason.
Recommend you go with a dog that is bred to be good at your favourite hunting activity, and get a second dog later on . :)

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Originally Posted by Sharon

Based on all I've read on your search , you may be looking for the impossible dog

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I have been starting to wonder if this was the problem :(
As always, I appreciate and value your insight Sharon.

Martin

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Originally Posted by 3 black dogs

Aquaterra flatcoats nice dogs with some go

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Thank you, I'll check it out.

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Originally Posted by Outdoorsman

Don't know much about the FCR,
but why don't you entertain the thought of a similar dog.. The Dutch Partridge Dog....

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Thank you, I'll look into that breed.

Patricia Robertson out of Lakefield Ontario has beautiful flat coats and has imported field stock from Europe. Google DueNorth kennels. She also does various types of training.

A friend has had flat coats for years. She has had some really nice dogs but not all have had the ability to do the type of hunting you want. She has imported from Alaska and her latest is from Florida. This latest one is a quick learner and is high energy. We have been trying to talk her into doing more field work with her. The one thing that I have noticed about the flat coats is they do not seem to have the longevity of life that some of the other retriever breeds do.

As ebenezer said, short life span. 8 yrs is common.
I have helped train a few of them. They are capable of great work, especially with experienced trainers.You will work a lot harder to get success, than you might with a well bred dog of another breed.
If it was my first time training I would not choose this breed.
If companionship is your first priority, and you will not train with high expectations, then do your best to find a flat from recent working lines.

Heather Stewart's HuggaMugga Max is one of the few Flatcoats that did well in the Fieldtrial game . He was exceptional. There are Flat Coats in the Hunt tests but not all are really enthusiastic about the work. Remember longcoats mean burrs.

Am I ever glad I posted the question, you guys have been very helpful. I really appreciate you taking the time to share your insights with me. Clearly I need to do more research before making a decision on which breed will be best for me. Flat-coats are now off the list.

http://www.fishercreekflatcoats.com/about-us/

Their dogs have done very well in all aspects. Conformation, obedience and field.

You should post that you are searching over at Canadian hunting dog forum.
Everybody's dog is the best, so it is tough to really make the right decision.
If really tough and regular hunting is what you will do, then it's pretty important to get the right breed and pedigree.
But if you are casual, then health clearances should be a focus for you.
Find out what the biggest health issues are for the breed, and ask the breeder what they are doing to avoid them.
Every breed has issues.

NorthernGrouse I wouldn't eliminate the Flat coat off your list yet. DueNorth kennels has exceptional flat coats that she imported from the Netherlands at least ten years ago and has had great success.Patricia is a very responsible breeder, trainer and would tell you if the breed would fit into your lifestyle. She has a new training facility in Peterbourough Ontario if you want to see her dogs in action.

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Originally Posted by Labber

As ebenezer said, short life span. 8 yrs is common.
I have helped train a few of them. They are capable of great work, especially with experienced trainers.You will work a lot harder to get success, than you might with a well bred dog of another breed.
If it was my first time training I would not choose this breed.
If companionship is your first priority, and you will not train with high expectations, then do your best to find a flat from recent working lines.

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There are always exceptions YD, but generally speaking , especially for a new trainer , Labber is right on.... and VERY experienced when it comes to retrievers.

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Originally Posted by Sharon

There are always exceptions YD, but generally speaking , especially for a new trainer , Labber is right on.... and VERY experienced when it comes to retrievers.

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DueNorth has had great success with this particular line out of the Netherlands and was the main reason for going out of the country. I don't know Labber Sharon and take your word on it . Patricia Robertson from DueNorth is a top notch trainer and has chosen this particular line because of the trainability. Patricia is a very kind caring breeder and takes great pride with this particular breed. I think NorthernGrouse as well as others would be surprised with what she has. Good luck NorthernGrouse

From what I can see on the web site they are a proffessional obediance training facility not a field trainer.

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Originally Posted by 3 black dogs

From what I can see on the web site they are a proffessional obediance training facility not a field trainer.

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That appears to be the case. A beautiful dog(albeit long haired) but not the choice if you are at all serious about field work.

Pat does field with her flat coats as well as tracking, scent work and obedience.
deb

Field to what level?

Would be good to know.

What an informative, interesting thread this is. Thank you all for your input.

I am now so confused about what would be best for me that I may just get a cat .... NOT

Martin

Why don't you go and visit some of the kennels and see the dogs first hand.
deb

Let me muddy the waters further by giving my 2 cents, as the owner of an "off-brand" dog....

There is a lot of pressure to go with the proven field breeds -- Labs, Springers, etc. -- because they're well known. We all know what a Lab can do. They're popular because they're proven. When you get some off-brand dog, it can be a bit of a crap shoot. You may get a good dog, or you may get a dud. So there's a natural tendency to push you towards a better known breed.

I don't think you should discount the importance of that for a first dog. Breeds differ -- there's a saying, "You train a Springer; you negotiate with a Cocker," for example. It helps to have a dog that lots of people have worked with. If you run into training problems you can rest assured you will find people who have seen it before. And this is to say nothing of the qualities of the dog itself, which are more predictable when you're dealing with the popular breeds. So get a popular breed.

You will often see negative opinions of lesser known breeds out of people who have seen them work. This, I take with a grain of salt. Those opinions are often based on only a couple of dogs, and what's more, they're usually based on whether breed B is just like breed A. For example, the Springer has set the standard in the field for a century, since fashions changed and the Clumber fell from favour. Any dog that doesn't hunt with a Springer's speed and dash is held to be inferior, regardless of its other qualities. We mistake style for ability; sometimes the faults we see are not really important. My dog is too slow to get past the first series in a trial. On the other hand, my freezer is full of birds and I like the way the dog hunts -- speed avails a flusher nothing in a woodcock covert. So go ahead and get a rare breed. :)

On the other other hand, breed descriptions are full of hooey. All dogs are "loyal and affectionate," according to their fanciers. The Welsh is "aloof with strangers," which can only mean that my dog has never met a stranger, since I've never known her to be aloof. Don't assume that because the breed club declares that the Flatcoat is exuberant and friendly that yours will be.

I think the bottom line is, the popular breeds are popular for good reasons. If you're going to get something else, make sure you see the dogs work first, talk to some people who own them, and know what you're getting into.

Well said Andrew I can always appreciate your fairness,good intentions and honesty. :)

Pretty good post there Welsh, what I would add is to also see what exists such that your comparison has substance and merit. Try to be very clear if the chosen dog can and will live up to your expectations. Yes for sure see them work if the dog is destined to becoming a working dog along with a long list of acceptable and predictable traits.

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

Field to what level?

Would be good to know.

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I talked to the lady by e mail. ( slow day :) )
She does : "I do a lot of dog training both for competition obedience and pet dog training.
I do a lot of e collar training for problem pets obedience work owners particularly.
Only field tests her own dogs occasionally.

Seems to be some PMs flying back and forth. :(

My purpose in posting this was not to prove anyone right or wrong. We are all wrong sometimes.

the lesson:

1/ Do your own homework as Northern Grouse has so well shown, and buyer beware.

2/ Take things said on a forum with a grain of salt.

3/ SOME breeders get their breeding stock a CKC FDJR in order to say their stock is a hunting line. This is not enough to prove your dog is going to hunt.

4/ See the parents work before buying a pup if at all possible.

* Others can add more to this list for sure. Health clearances haven't been mentioned at all yet much.

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Originally Posted by Sharon

1/ Do your own homework as Northern Grouse has so well shown, and buyer beware.

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Thank you Sharon. I am putting a ridiculous amount of time into this decision for two equally important reasons:

1. so that I get the best breed for my life style and hunting objectives
2. so that the dog I get is just as happy with me as I am with her

This is a multi-year commitment that I am taking very seriously.


Martin

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Originally Posted by Sharon

3/ SOME breeders get their breeding stock a CKC FDJR in order to say their stock is a hunting line. This is not enough to prove your dog is going to hunt.

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This seems to be common in the States, and it's one reason that their hunt test standards are lower (for spaniels, anyway). There's a big difference between breeders who put junior hunt test titles on their dogs, and breeders who actually hunt over their dogs....

Your 4 points are very reasonable. There are numerous others if people are interested but better not get into health clearances or we'll have more PM's floating around......good lord!

Has to be carefully considered though Krakadawn - who gets up at the crack-of dawn? :)

NorthernGrouse:

Don't forget to read up on health clearances essential for the breed you choose. I started a new thread on the topic.

** Don't forget the Canadian Gun Dog Forum - LOTS of experienced retriever folk there.

Just realized: By the sound of your user name , you best be getting a bird dog. :) A GSP will hunt birds well and retrieve early season duck. I've had 2 and they were fine in the house with sufficient exercise.

** last post here . Sorry to have said so much.

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Originally Posted by welsh

This seems to be common in the States, and it's one reason that their hunt test standards are lower (for spaniels, anyway). There's a big difference between breeders who put junior hunt test titles on their dogs, and breeders who actually hunt over their dogs....

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You make a very valid point about lowering standards especially in various field sports. Major push over time has come from breeders who are involved in show and obedience. The big perk is to claim some level of field title so that their dogs may appeal to unsuspecting/uninformed buyers. I do not disparage show/obedience folks at all.....be clear about that but when some claims about getting an outstanding field product are made....well....enough said especially when you talk about titles listed behind a dog's name as opposed to in front of it....there is no comparison.
There are a few kennels though that truly aspire to produce an animal who 'may' meet standards across the board. Good for them.....a big challenge.

NorthernGrouse I was speaking to my friend at DueNorth kennels today. It has been many years since i have connected with her and thank you for bringing up this topic. I will be paying her a visit in the near future to see her dogs in action and look at her training facility. She has come a long way from when I first met her and her dedication to the breed and training is inspiring.

NG, could you share why you changed your mind on the Brittany? I have a 1 1/2 yr old granddaughter and 2 Britts, 18 & 6 mths. They are fantastic with her. The older Britt has an FDJ and will be doing FD in the spring. This is my first experience training and owning a Britt and am glad I did not listen to the negative's. They are a very sweet unbelievably loving breed that do turn the field exuberance off when they get in the house.

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Originally Posted by cdelargy

NG, could you share why you changed your mind on the Brittany? I have a 1 1/2 yr old granddaughter and 2 Britts, 18 & 6 mths. They are fantastic with her. The older Britt has an FDJ and will be doing FD in the spring. This is my first experience training and owning a Britt and am glad I did not listen to the negative's. They are a very sweet unbelievably loving breed that do turn the field exuberance off when they get in the house.

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I was pretty much decided on the Brittany until speaking/PMing with a couple of Brittany owners. Like you, they loved their dogs and highly recommended them. The one caveat was that Brittany's may be too active sit in a blind as waterfowl dog must do. I had heard and read that they are good duck dogs. So I am confused as to whether or not a Brittany will be good for water retrieves of ducks.

Secondly, he described his Brittany,in the field, as a wide ranging, fast moving bird dog. He loved that, but I don't think I would. I have hunted with two dogs:
- An English pointing dog who covered a lot of ground and was amazing at finding birds. But for the most part he was out hunting on his own until on point, they we were a team.
- a Golden that I trained (such as it was). She worked close and was rarely more 30 or 40 yards from me. She was not nearly as successful at finding birds, but we were very much hunting together and I loved that. It was more about the companionship and less about hoovering the area for every bird.

So, just to be clear, I have not been turned off getting a Brittany, I am just expanding my search. I thought the Flat-coat Retriever might be the "one" for me, but based on the feedback for several members I have ruled out that breed. I do love much of what I have heard about them, but some of the cautions have made me realize that the breed is not right for me at this time.

A Lab is still on my list, my main concern is size. l prefer a smaller breed, such as the Brittany.

Soon I will visit a few breeders to finalize my decision.

It sounds like you first need to decide if you want a dog that points birds or a flusher.

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Originally Posted by trkyhntr21

It sounds like you first need to decide if you want a dog that points birds or a flusher.

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Also how late in the year you will be hunting water!! Brittanys are awesome but only single very light coated not a great december waster dog vest or not...just another consideration...

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Originally Posted by CamoIsMyColour

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Originally Posted by trkyhntr21

It sounds like you first need to decide if you want a dog that points birds or a flusher.

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Also how late in the year you will be hunting water!! Brittanys are awesome but only single very light coated not a great december waster dog vest or not...just another consideration...

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Agreed there's some Versatile breeds that can meet the requirements of pointing birds and also be a reliable retriever of ducks and geese in colder temperatures. The serious hardcore waterfowlers seem to have labs or a Chesapeake for a reason.

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Originally Posted by trkyhntr21

Agreed there's some Versatile breeds that can meet the requirements of pointing birds and also be a reliable retriever of ducks and geese in colder temperatures. The serious hardcore waterfowlers seem to have labs or a Chesapeake for a reason.

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Yep....my labs will retrive any bird anywhere when I ask them to do so...they are just happy retrieving and being out in the lake, marsh, pond, field, bush they dont care....very wersatile companions...

What about a curly coated retriever ?

Flat coats are not popular because in general they are not on the same level as the other retriever breeds. Even in the UK where flat coats are more popular they are miles behind other gun dog breeds. They were bred solely for show for a very long time... takes a long time to breed that out.... easier to breed brains out of a dog than into one.

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Originally Posted by NorthernGrouse

I was pretty much decided on the Brittany until speaking/PMing with a couple of Brittany owners. Like you, they loved their dogs and highly recommended them. The one caveat was that Brittany's may be too active sit in a blind as waterfowl dog must do. I had heard and read that they are good duck dogs. So I am confused as to whether or not a Brittany will be good for water retrieves of ducks.

Secondly, he described his Brittany,in the field, as a wide ranging, fast moving bird dog. He loved that, but I don't think I would. I have hunted with two dogs:
- An English pointing dog who covered a lot of ground and was amazing at finding birds. But for the most part he was out hunting on his own until on point, they we were a team.
- a Golden that I trained (such as it was). She worked close and was rarely more 30 or 40 yards from me. She was not nearly as successful at finding birds, but we were very much hunting together and I loved that. It was more about the companionship and less about hoovering the area for every bird.
So, just to be clear, I have not been turned off getting a Brittany, I am just expanding my search. I thought the Flat-coat Retriever might be the "one" for me, but based on the feedback for several members I have ruled out that breed. I do love much of what I have heard about them, but some of the cautions have made me realize that the breed is not right for me at this time.

A Lab is still on my list, my main concern is size. l prefer a smaller breed, such as the Brittany.

Soon I will visit a few breeders to finalize my decision.

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#1 underlined:
I think this is B.S. :)

It's all in the training. Be assured that an lab is just as eager to get at that bird , but proper training makes all the difference.

#2 - A good friend of mine who is a pro trainer had a fantastic Brittany who ranged out 600 yards ++ and won many a trial. It doesn't matter how far they range out as long as they hold the bird until you get there.( The birds are OUT there.)

He 's also very capable at training someone's Brittany to stay within 50 yards if that's what the hunter wants. It's all in the training .( Don't buy from a field trial line.)

If one is going to have a bird dog hunting at 30 yards, they might as well save their money and kick the bird up themselves. :) or get a spaniel.:silly: just kidding Cass

underlined #3:

What ???? If you want to trade finding birds for fellowship then get a JRT. :)

PS Still say a Brittany, GSP or GWP ( choose the runt or the smallest pup :) ) , is your best choice .... bird finder and early season duck retriever. ... not from a field trial pedigreed line.

PS
edited to make it clear I was just teasing Cass and Krakadawn.

Curlies are a great breed but I think they need an experienced handler. The ones I have been around seem to need a little more finesse. If you have trained a golden before why not stick with what you know?deb

Sharon please enlighten us why not a dog from a field trial line?
" PS Still say a Brittany, GSP or GWP ( choose the runt or the smallest pup) , is your best choice .... bird finder and early season duck retriever. ... not from a field trial pedigreed line."

I'm not sure I can "enlighten " anyone :), but....the OP has made it clear that he wants a close -working dog. Why buy a big, running, pointing breed from a pointing breed trial line ? Much harder to pull a dog in than get it to move out jmo.

edited for punctuation - an old teacher

Your a very brave women Sharon. :)

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Originally Posted by Sharon

I'm not sure I can "enlighten " anyone :), but....the OP has made it clear that he wants a close -working dog. Why buy a big running pointing breed from a pointing breed trial line ? Much harder to pull a dog in than get it to move out jmo.

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Really because you said this earlier
" It's all in the training. Be assured that an lab is just as eager to get at that bird , but proper training makes all the difference."

Then you say this " - A good friend of mine who is a pro trainer had a fantastic Brittany who ranged out 600 yards ++ and won many a trial. It doesn't matter how far they range out as long as they hold the bird until you get there.( The birds are OUT there.)
He 's also very capable at training someone's Brittany to stay within 50 yards if that's what the hunter wants. It's all in the training"
"If one is going to have a bird dog hunting at 30 yards, they might as well save their money
and kick the bird up themselvesor get a spaniel."

So obviously they can be trained to work close and to remain still if given the proper training.

Just trying to explain to people that just because you buy a dog from a "trial " line doesn't necessarily mean a wild run off out of control dog.
So far from what I have seen is its nicer to have a dog with drive and heart that you get to buy in and train properly, than a dog that just don't have the stuff and trying to add it later.

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Originally Posted by Cass

Flat coats are not popular because in general they are not on the same level as the other retriever breeds. Even in the UK where flat coats are more popular they are miles behind other gun dog breeds. They were bred solely for show for a very long time... takes a long time to breed that out.... easier to breed brains out of a dog than into one.

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Contact my good friend at DueNorth kennels and have that discussion. Let me know how it works out for you. :)

quote TRkhunter21

Really because you said this earlier
" It's all in the training. Be assured that an lab is just as eager to get at that bird , but proper training makes all the difference."

Then you say this " - A good friend of mine who is a pro trainer had a fantastic Brittany who ranged out 600 yards ++ and won many a trial. It doesn't matter how far they range out as long as they hold the bird until you get there.( The birds are OUT there.)
He 's also very capable at training someone's Brittany to stay within 50 yards if that's what the hunter wants. It's all in the training"
"If one is going to have a bird dog hunting at 30 yards, they might as well save their money
and kick the bird up themselvesor get a spaniel."... just kidding Cass

So obviously they can be trained to work close and to remain still if given the proper training.


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I didn't say impossible , I said hard to train for.

I hear you . A big running dog is absolutely NOT out of control.

In the video , that dog knows exactly where his handler is and will hold that bird for the handler no matter how long it takes him to get there ; the dog will relocate if necessary too.( I know you know this , but some may not.)


Absolutely- a big running dog can be trained to work closely, but it is heck of a big job! and imo not very vey fair to the big running dog whose every gene tells him to get out there.
Why would the OP put himself through that when he can get a pointing breed from a close working line?

Just grabbed a quick video. THis dog could? be trained to hunt close but one had better have a LOT of experience and patience .( Very few as capable in shortening up a dog as the pro I mentioned.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WGi...JhKij8yqdoZR3g

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quote tryhntr21:

Just trying to explain to people that just because you buy a dog from a "trial " line doesn't necessarily mean a wild run off out of control dog.
So far from what I have seen is its nicer to have a dog with drive and heart that you get to buy in and train properly, than a dog that just don't have the stuff and trying to add it later.


Buying from a non field trail pedigree does not mean the dog won't have the "stuff - drive, heart. I've seen many a dog do well at field TESTS that would make a great hunting dog, but not be successful in a trial - another subject. :)

So these close working dogs that you can train to run big are their genes telling them that its wrong to be out so far?
Or is it that they do what they are trained to do and aren't mulling over their genetic crisis of whether they are a close working or far ranging dog?

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

Contact my good friend at DueNorth kennels and have that discussion. Let me know how it works out for you. :)

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This is their history Vince. Your friends concentrates on obedience work which is something they are very good at.

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Originally Posted by trkyhntr21

So these close working dogs that you can train to run big are their genes telling them that its wrong to be out so far?
Or is it that they do what they are trained to do and aren't mulling over their genetic crisis of whether they are a close working or far ranging dog?

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LOL Very good. I know you believe that it is in the breeding whether or not a dog will run big or stay close.... all other things being equal. Right?

I never said your quote : "close working dogs that you can train to run big". In my experience that is another challenge one shouldn't take on unless there's an exceptional reason. I had a bootlicker once because someone had abused the dog with the e collar before I got it. Dog was afraid to range out . As it developed confidence that ranging out was safe its genes kicked in and it was another dog.

The bottom line for the Op is : get the dog that fits your wants rather than a dog you have to work on hard to change.

PS These are more replies than I ever post - too much coffee . :) Enjoyed the discussion.... bowing out so others can contribute.

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To further complicate the issue , a close working pointing dog can be encouraged to work out farther by planting birds out farther , but unlikely he/she will become a 600 + yard ranging dog.

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Originally Posted by Sharon

This is their history Vince. Your friends concentrates on obedience work which is something they are very good at.

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I know Sharon but it would be very interesting for Cass to hear it straight from a flatcoat breeder trainer and not out of a book. She has done wonders with this intelligent breed. :)

Depends what book you read. :)

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Originally Posted by Cass

Flat coats are not popular because in general they are not on the same level as the other retriever breeds. Even in the UK where flat coats are more popular they are miles behind other gun dog breeds. They were bred solely for show for a very long time... takes a long time to breed that out.... easier to breed brains out of a dog than into one.

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What book did you read ? :)

Wow, this thread has over 1,200 views and 50+ posts. I truly appreciate all the advice that so many of you have taken the time to share. Now it seems that sarcasm is starting to creep in .... that is too bad because for so long all the input was helpful and contributed positively to the question at hand. I have learned a great deal, and now realize just how naive I was. I am wiser and now ready to move on and begin a more focused study of the breed that will be right for me, and I thank you all for helping me. I hope that no hard feelings have arisen from this discussion.

Its good sarcasm. :) I think you have enough information to go on and make your decision.

I haven't read any book on the flat coat, ( did some googling reading), but maybe Cass has read a great book!:) Any pheasant found Saturday? Did you go where I suggested?

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Originally Posted by Sharon

I haven't read any book on the flat coat , but maybe Cass has read a great book!:) Any pheasant found Saturday? Did you go where I suggested?

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I went Sunday with my brother and flushed one. I missed and my brother forgot to take his safety off. My springer had a great time . And yes I did go where you suggested and that was the area Elly flushed a rooster.

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Originally Posted by NorthernGrouse

Wow, this thread has over 1,200 views and 50+ posts. I truly appreciate all the advice that so many of you have taken the time to share. Now it seems that sarcasm is starting to creep in .... that is too bad because for so long all the input was helpful and contributed positively to the question at hand. I have learned a great deal, and now realize just how naive I was. I am wiser and now ready to move on and begin a more focused study of the breed that will be right for me, and I thank you all for helping me. I hope that no hard feelings have arisen from this discussion.

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Not to worry. I know Vince ; he's just poking at me for fun. Actually Vince and I haven't had a good fight in a long time. :)

trkyhntr21 asks excellent questions and is very knowledgeable . Always enjoy bantering with him.

Glad we've all been helpful; let us know what you decide. Enjoy the search. :)

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

I went Sunday with my brother and flushed one. I missed and my brother forgot to take his safety off. My springer had a great time . And yes I did go where you suggested and that was the area Elly flushed a rooster.

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That'll be $50.00 please. :)

Cheque is in the mail :)

Not only are many books poorly written but hardly a fair description of certain breeds and their capabilities. One just has to tune in to any of the 'large' dog shows and listen to the announcer rhyme off a long litany of inaccuracies. Take your pick, this exists in many sporting breed perspectives.
Just a couple of comments from many years experience,
-I'd rather have a dog with too much 'go' than one who won't go when things get tough
-field trial lines have the best chance of getting drive and health
-high drive and lack of control are not necessarily causal in relationship
-labs dominate the trial/hunt test world, followed by a few goldens, almost no chessies and virtually no flat or curly coats. There is a causal relationship for this.

Selecting your new partner takes research, time and work. If the visual presentation is what rules your world then make your call. Personally I want the smartest ,trainable, loyal, hard driving animal I can get. I want keen eyes, high prey drive and strong memory as well. If you are after these qualities then pedigrees that have produced the same are where it's at. You will not find these qualities on a regular basis with breeders or breeds who are limited in those qualities.

NorthernGrouse all you had to do was ask krakadawn.

If I may add 2 cents, it strikes me that you'd be well served by a Lab. They don't all have to be 80 lb dogs. If you look for a breeder producing smaller dogs you might be very happy with the result.

"field trial lines have the best chance of getting drive and health" quote Krakadawn

Not convinced. Have to think on that.

Best ? Hmmm

For me drive and health can also be found in a breeding from a good hunt test pedigree.

What separates a good test dog (FDX) from a field trial winner is range not drive or health.

PS Realize these posts are off the OPs topic but he has said that he has the info he needs now.

Read this the other day which gave me lots to think on:

A fellow was asked how he would decide whether a young dog would be kept for trialing etc ..

............some of what it will take I can already see like (in no particular order),brains, nose and desire to find birds, endurance, nice gait, good skeleton(with balance), boldness/courage, high tail, good hearing, good eyesight,calmness (un-excitable) yet energetic, eager to please, etc.........What I hopeto see is power, speed, unrelenting drive to hunt and locate birds, extremeendurance (lots of bottom), bird sense, toughness under any circumstance, GUTS,grace, feminine features, disease free....and more. quote SCT

Quote:

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Originally Posted by welsh

If I may add 2 cents, it strikes me that you'd be well served by a Lab. They don't all have to be 80 lb dogs. If you look for a breeder producing smaller dogs you might be very happy with the result.

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I could see that right from the beginning of the thread Andrew. I prefer a rare breed like the one i have and wouldn't change a thing. I did at least 1 year in researched probably longer and already had a small 55lb Lab. Would I get another Lab, possibly many years down the road. I wished i had gotten a spaniel much earlier in life and feel i missed out on an amazing breed. She's been an awesome addition to the family and an incredible little hunting dog .

When did a springer become a "Rare breed" great dog to the ocassional hunter by that I mean someone who goes out 3-4 times a year I hope the op finds the dog he is looking for no matter what breed he chooses. Every one knows I am partial to a well breed field lab I hunt right till freeze up so I have the dog that has the go to be there with me. When you choose the breed that is right for you the training is the important part you get out what you put in.

Chris

Hey Andrew have you been out 3 or 4 times this year with your spaniel ? LOL

Geez YD, I see you haven't lost any of the sarcasm have you?
Maybe just contribute.........

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sharon

"field trial lines have the best chance of getting drive and health" quote Krakadawn

Not convinced. Have to think on that.

Best ? Hmmm

For me drive and health can also be found in a breeding from a good hunt test pedigree.

What separates a good test dog (FDX) from a field trial winner is range not drive or health.

PS Realize these posts are off the OPs topic but he has said that he has the info he needs now.

Read this the other day which gave me lots to think on:

A fellow was asked how he would decide whether a young dog would be kept for trialing etc ..

............some of what it will take I can already see like (in no particular order),brains, nose and desire to find birds, endurance, nice gait, good skeleton(with balance), boldness/courage, high tail, good hearing, good eyesight,calmness (un-excitable) yet energetic, eager to please, etc.........What I hopeto see is power, speed, unrelenting drive to hunt and locate birds, extremeendurance (lots of bottom), bird sense, toughness under any circumstance, GUTS,grace, feminine features, disease free....and more. quote SCT

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Sharon, what you say may be accurate for the pointing dog world but in the world of retrievers my comments stand. EIC and CNM were brought about through the involvement of the field trial world....folks like Marilyn Fender, Sue Taylor etc

These health clearances did not come out of the obedience/show world at all.

Most Hunt test people have dogs with strong field trial breeding.

Your issue of range vs drive and health again is applicable to bird dogs as per your example. This is not even an issue for us as most discussions would focus on attributes like marking, lining, memory, sagacity, team efforts.

Different worlds? Maybe...maybe not....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

What book did you read ? :)

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I do not have time nor a solid wifi connection right now to get into another urination match on here. I will try to read through these posts though in more detail when I am back in Canada next week.

there are a lot more experianced and knowledgeable dog people than me out there but I think the biggest differance in field trial v hunt test dogs is the stream the owner takes that particular dog down.

OP I have had clients with Flat Coats and they where great field dogs, I really enjoyed watching them work. The owners did say it is a challenge firstly finding a good blood line and secondly having the where for all to properly train them. They were both in the hunt test stream and I believe their dogs had their finished levels.

It was a joke Cass. :)

Well krakadawn if your looking for sarcasm then reread 3Blackdogs comment about spaniels. It seems you pick and choose who you protect. Also your latest contribution or recommendations have all been points already presented by all other forum memebers on this thread. This is not sarcasm but the truth.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

Sharon, what you say may be accurate for the pointing dog world but in the world of retrievers my comments stand. EIC and CNM were brought about through the involvement of the field trial world....folks like Marilyn Fender, Sue Taylor etc

These health clearances did not come out of the obedience/show world at all.

***Most Hunt test people have dogs with strong field trial breeding.

Your issue of range vs drive and health again is applicable to bird dogs as per your example. This is not even an issue for us as most discussions would focus on attributes like marking, lining, memory, sagacity, team efforts.

Different worlds? Maybe...maybe not....

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Excellent points for me to consider. The *** particularly.
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Okay, well, I see this thread has become fully asinine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

Well krakadawn if your looking for sarcasm then reread 3Blackdogs comment about spaniels. It seems you pick and choose who you protect. Also your latest contribution or recommendations have all been points already presented by all other forum memebers on this thread. This is not sarcasm but the truth.

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I just did...do you consider it sarcastic because he mentioned hunting 3-4 times a year or the fact that he referred to your comment about preference for a rarer breed(which by the way a springer is not). Guess you need to address this to Chris and let him respond....I can't and won't speak for him.

By the way, not sure where that comment about protecting people came from? You may confuse support/agreement for specific comments as that but sure as hell is not protecting. I see Cass is looking for a piece of you...he'll speak for himself.

So my recent comments have all been said previously in this thread??? What are you drinking? I can't recall any previous mention of the 2 individuals I named and gave credit to for their research on both EIC and CNM. I see no previous mention about FT pedigrees in HT dogs. You might consider talking to some of the folks who strongly campaign their dogs in HTs and inquire about pedigree 'thinking'.

I believe you are lacking in pertinent knowledge about FT dogs since you don't and haven't ever campaigned dogs in retriever trials let alone done any judging in them. You might be well advised to get your feet wet in some game .Learning curves can be challenging and exciting, hope you do well with your springer.

Krakadawn I drink forty creek and highland park scotch by the way. Cass can speak to me anytime as it was a joke but for some reason it has affected you. I fully understand what all the titles mean its not rocket science. I dont really care about campaigned dogs in retriever trials or let alone judging them. But I do know allot about dogs period. And my breed of choice is the spaniel that i continue to learn about and surround myself by professionals in this field. I have learned allot from a couple of them and i am slowly getting my feet wet. They are neither arrogant or condescending trainers and they feel I am on the right track because of my background knowledge. But what I have noticed and for the record so have others that you tend to swoop in towards the end and gather everyone's advice put it in your words and make it your own. You have a fantastic way of presenting this advice but others are not acknowledged . So rather than you getting back on the band wagon and telling me what i already don't know consider my advice.

I for one appreciate the posts that krakadawn and other experienced trainers make and hope that they continue to contribute in the future.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trkyhntr21

I for one appreciate the posts that krakadawn makes and hope that he continues to contribute in the future.

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Didn't say I didn't.

Just making sure I wasn't included in the "others" you mentioned YD.

YD, I hope you make good progress with the training of your dog, As I said, learning curves can be steep, challenging and rewarding .Did anyone already say that?)

I mention information around retrievers, trials, health issues and pedigrees as all were pertinent to the discussion. If you do not campaign dogs or contribute to the game by judging then your perspective is probably limited. I mentioned some general overviews about flat coats and retriever trials. Lets not forget this is the prime basis for comparison of the retrieving talent pool. Hunters and pet owners are no different when looking for the best. I mentioned to someone today about one of my Vets who purchased a non litter sister to an old FTCH of mine. That dog never got to retrieve a bird ever but was the smartest dog he ever owned. He wanted one as he knew just how intelligent mine was.......the sharing of information.

So you believe I swooped in and didn't bring other information...at least mine???? YD, respectfully, you have a reading problem, go back and reread what was said.

I don't need to be on anyone's bandwagon and rarely am if ever. Pointing out what you don't know was not my purpose although I could if you desire.

On a more positive note, you have made some good progress getting hooked into a mentor and some others who are in your game. Stay at it, I hope you have some success and put any new learning to good use especially when it comes to training strategies, how dogs learn and solid understandings about our dogs that are important to all of us. Perhaps you'll choose to do some competing with your dog at some point, perhaps you'll even be asked to judge and understand why it's important to give back to our respective games.

Thank you Krakadawn and Sharon . You can train the "go" in a dog to your advantage but you can not put it into them if it was not in the breeding .

Well, asking about the right breed is just as asking for the right calibre ;-)
No matter how you try to spin and focus the question, sooner or later they'll end up the same way. The question is justified and everyone has a good reason for their personal choice.
To continue with the analogy:
Find out what hunting you’ll really do and how many “guns” you will afford.
Get your “gun” and practice “shooting”. The nicest gun is not worth much if you cannot shoot it.

For most of us, it’ll be only one dog. So pick what will be your breed for the no. one on your list. If you put up enough effort you can train the dog as long other things as long as they are bodily capable; e.g. any pointer or flusher can be trained to fetch in the water (they just may die of hyperthermia if they don’t move thereafter). If you are after certain titles or absolute perfection / style, you’d certainly have a different game plan, but I think this is not what you are looking for.

And with respect to your grandchildren, most hunting breeds will knock kids over like bowling pins…

Thank you Watfrudnir. Sorry for the delay in responding to your post ... I somehow missed it until now. I truly do appreciate the time that you and so many others have taken to help me understand the choices and things to consider.

It was always my intention to go slowly in deciding "if" to get a dog and then to select the breed. I how easy it is to let emotion take over when looking at a litter of puppies. My decision is almost final, the next step will be to seek out recommended breeders with the hope of getting on the list for a spring litter.

I don't think you can really go wrong with any gun dog breed as long as it fits the hunting that you do. They're all a pain for the first year or 2 and on the whole are more active than non-sporting breeds but they are all awesome to watch. I love working my guy on grouse and woodcock, but at the same time this past week running the hounds in deer season was just as fulfilling. Watching a dog do what it was bred to do is what its all about. Be honest with yourself about what you need in a hunting dog, and know the limitations of the breed (and dog) you choose. I am very happy with my breed of choice, but I am also aware of its shortcomings. There is no one elite breed - if there was that would be the only type of hunting dog there is. Each generally excels at one thing, some are just a little more versatile (read: adaptable) than others.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cass

I don't think you can really go wrong with any gun dog breed as long as it fits the hunting that you do. They're all a pain for the first year or 2 and on the whole are more active than non-sporting breeds but they are all awesome to watch. I love working my guy on grouse and woodcock, but at the same time this past week running the hounds in deer season was just as fulfilling. Watching a dog do what it was bred to do is what its all about. Be honest with yourself about what you need in a hunting dog, and know the limitations of the breed (and dog) you choose. I am very happy with my breed of choice, but I am also aware of its shortcomings. There is no one elite breed - if there was that would be the only type of hunting dog there is. Each generally excels at one thing, some are just a little more versatile (read: adaptable) than others.

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I don't think so Nick ; just yours. :)

I love those first two years , especially in trials.

Mines still a pain Sharon lol. He's getting better though... slightly. However I'll take it- he's an impressive dog to watch. If he didn't have all that energy I'd probably be more upset lol