Slug Shotgun vs. Large Calibre Rifle

Hey Everyone,

I have been reading another current thread going on about the merits of a 12ga vs 20ga slug shotgun for shooting deer. I didn't want to highjack that thread so I though I would ask my question here instead:

Why would one use a 12ga or 20ga shotgun with slugs over a larger calibre rifle? I hear that 20ga are pretty accurate out to about 150 yards however a lot of rifles can hit out to 300 yards (adduming the shooter is skilled enough). Is it just a versatility issue where you can use a shotgun for other hunts as well (unless it is rifled)?

I would really like to hear your feedback :)

It's against the law to use rifles for big game hunting in many (mostly southern) WMU's. I'm sure that if rifles were allowed, most would opt for a rifle over a shotgun.

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Originally Posted by arvanlaar

Hey Everyone,

I have been reading another current thread going on about the merits of a 12ga vs 20ga slug shotgun for shooting deer. I didn't want to highjack that thread so I though I would ask my question here instead:

Why would one use a 12ga or 20ga shotgun with slugs over a larger calibre rifle? I hear that 20ga are pretty accurate out to about 150 yards however a lot of rifles can hit out to 300 yards (adduming the shooter is skilled enough). Is it just a versatility issue where you can use a shotgun for other hunts as well (unless it is rifled)?

I would really like to hear your feedback :)

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Some WMUs are shotgun only. Some municipalities limit CF rifle to .270 or less. Some guys own a good shotgun and don't want to buy a rifle for deer hunting only. If you're hunting in the bush, 75 yards is about the longest shot you'll have anyway. Lots of varied reasons.

There are many factors for choosing slug or large calibre rifle.

Cost - It is cheaper to buy a slug barrel than a complete rifle package.
Law requirement - some WMU only allow shotgun only
Challenge - Some hunter like the challenge of using a slug gun.
Perception - Some hunter think slug has better knock down power than large calibre rifle
Deflection - Some hunter think slugs are deflected less by branches when hunting in thick bush


In my 30 years of hunting, I encountered all of the above hunting type.

GW11 hit the nail on the head.
Regulations preventing the use of a rifle.
Which really make no sense when you can take a 270 out varmit hunting but can't use it for deer.

HA

Something to think about, in the WMU's in southern on. that have deer hunts, also in the Controlled Deer Hunt WMU's , there is no restriction on the use of "Muzzle Loaders ". Some muzzle loaders [traditional ] are in calibers up to .75 [ A VERY LARGE BALL] others in the "Smokeless "designation are available in .50 cal. and are extremely accurate out to 200 yards plus [depending on the shooters capabilities].

For example (someone correct me if I am wrong) in Cannington ON it is shotgun only for deer hunting. You cannot use a rifle. So your choice is 12 or 20 gauge, black powered or Bow.

In one of my areas, I can use my .338 WM for coyote and groundhog, but not for deer. It's a farce.

Silly legal requirements. Thats why.

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

For example (someone correct me if I am wrong) in Cannington ON it is shotgun only for deer hunting. You cannot use a rifle. So your choice is 12 or 20 gauge, black powered or Bow.

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410 with slugs, 10ga to just knock them flat without a twitch.

I asked the question,way back when,of a OHEP instructor who deferred to the OPP whose position was that due to the huge number of hunters taking to the field during the two-week shotgun Deer hunt,it was necessary to reduce the range of firearms purely as a safety factor. The "shotgun only" rule was enacted to facilitate that requirement for obvious reasons,especially,as land was being taken over for development and more and more houses are being built in rural areas. Local municipalities used the by-law process.,but,as such,was incorporated into the various FWCActs which have been enacted by the province over many years.That rule,in most southern Ontario WMU's,is still in force,but,has led municipalities to re-write their by-laws,relying on the provincial legislation as a blanket regulation. For the municipalities,it relieves them of the onus of firearms regulation,save for zoning.
While the shotgun Deer hunt is closed,as long as we have a Black Bear license,we can still use heavy rifles,even in areas where the FWCA clearly states that rifles of .270 or smaller may only be used for SMALL game. Hunting BIG game,such as Bears,isn't restricted and heavier rifles may be used.
It's wierd,but,that's the way the Act is written.

Not sure if I read Trimmer right, but in most of southern Ontario, you cannot use a rifle larger than 275 caliber for ANY game...even bear if you are hunting south of Seven or wherever that line runs. ...You could use a 270 for jackrabbits or bear in southern Ontario however, assuming an open season...

These shotgun only areas where designed back when shotguns were only smoothbore and ammo was not like it was today.


These new shotguns are pretty much rifles, I wonder how long before they are banned.....



Stupid rule anyways because I can use my .243 for all small game and it shoots A LOT farther and flatter than my rifled barrel shotgun

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Originally Posted by huntaway

GW11 hit the nail on the head.
Regulations preventing the use of a rifle.
Which really make no sense when you can take a 270 out varmit hunting but can't use it for deer.

HA

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The varmint hunting I do - coyotes, groundhogs takes place in open fields with open views. I sometimes think a high powered rifle would be good in a open field scenario, in the southern WMU's for the deer hunt. But I think differently where the hunting takes place in hilly terrain close to populated communities, where a proper backstops might be overlooked. I'd be scared to be out if there with the spray and pray hunters during the controlled hunt if there were now allowed to bring out a rifle. All firearms are lethal but take a high powered rifle cartridge distance into consideration and things can get sketchy. IMO.

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Originally Posted by Pat32rf

Not sure if I read Trimmer right, but in most of southern Ontario, you cannot use a rifle larger than 275 caliber for ANY game...even bear if you are hunting south of Seven or wherever that line runs. ...You could use a 270 for jackrabbits or bear in southern Ontario however, assuming an open season...

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Read the guide,again,Pat. There's a common misconception that we can't use big bore rifles for anything,but,if you read the Act correctly,it states,specifically...A person hunting SMALL GAME may not carry or use a rifle of greater caliber than a .275 in the geographic areas of...... It makes NO mention of caliber restrictions for BIG game except for the "shotguns only" restriction for Deer.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Read the guide,again,Pat. There's a common misconception that we can't use big bore rifles for anything,but,if you read the Act correctly,it states,specifically...A person hunting SMALL GAME may not carry or use a rifle of greater caliber than a .275 in the geographic areas of...... It makes NO mention of caliber restrictions for BIG game except for the "shotguns only" restriction for Deer.

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Dead on, just verify that there are no municipal restrictions in your area. Some municipalities have shotgun only, or no rifle or caliber restrictions to discharge.

When hunting check both the MNR regulations and your municipal restrictions. For target shooting be sure to check into your municipal restrictions.

With all this info now I am torn on what to do for my second gun! I love rifles but shotguns offer more versatility in terms of what I can hunt and where I can hunt. And then the choice between 20ga and 12ga haha. So much to decide on...

Thanks for all the input gents! If you have more feel free to keep it coming :)

were you live a shotgun will get you thru all the seasons starting with turkeys in the spring and going in to fall with ducks and geese then on to the controlled deer hunt ,in winter you can hunt rabbits birds and yotes . crows and all the rest of the small game stuff .you can shoot trap and skeet with your buddys all year .so a good shotgun with a few barrels and a good 22 or 22winmag should cover you for most of your hunting needs .Dutch

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Originally Posted by arvanlaar

With all this info now I am torn on what to do for my second gun! I love rifles but shotguns offer more versatility in terms of what I can hunt and where I can hunt. And then the choice between 20ga and 12ga haha. So much to decide on...

Thanks for all the input gents! If you have more feel free to keep it coming :)

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Actually,a .22 is indispensable for small game. There's many great makes and models to choose from. As for a shotgun, 12ga. and/or 20ga. depending on your comfort level will be good for small game,upland birds and waterfowl and short range Coyotes,anywhere you hunt. If you add a good slug barrel,it will be good for any big game in the province out to 75 yds. For big woods and,in some cases,dangerous game,anything from .270 to .338 WinMag will deliver very adequate smack-down anywhere in Canada. The fun and great enjoyment is figuring out what you like and what you'll need it for. Buy the very best you can afford....once. It will last you forever and there's something to hand down to future generations.

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

Some WMUs are shotgun only. Some municipalities limit CF rifle to .270 or less. Some guys own a good shotgun and don't want to buy a rifle for deer hunting only. If you're hunting in the bush, 75 yards is about the longest shot you'll have anyway. Lots of varied reasons.

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God I love where I live
Shoot out my back door. Smack mammals with either a hot loaded 45/70 or 50 AK. God bless freedom
Back to Your question. They ain't made the Sgun that will hold a candle to firepower like that. WFN hard cast. If I can make out his outline I own him

I think shotgun/muzzle-loader deer control hunts are a good thing... Way too many guys and farm houses around my area for gangs of rifle hunters.

Get yourself a .22 and combo shotgun and you will be set for most game in Ontario....

you would real have to step up to a big rifle to have the same inpact at 50 yards that a 12 slug would have .anybody have the numbers of what a 12g slug will compare to in a rifle cal at 50 yards .

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Originally Posted by dutchhunter

you would real have to step up to a big rifle to have the same inpact at 50 yards that a 12 slug would have .anybody have the numbers of what a 12g slug will compare to in a rifle cal at 50 yards .

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Not sure at 50 yards but at the muzzle a 12 gauge (3 inch chamber) slug could be anywhere from 2500 ft-lbs to over 3000 ft-lbs KE depending on the style and manufacturer. That puts the KE on par at the muzzle with say a 30-06. I think the large diameter of the slug also enhances knockdown power (at close range) as it provides for a more efficient transfer of KE to the animal.

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Originally Posted by arvanlaar

Hey Everyone,

I have been reading another current thread going on about the merits of a 12ga vs 20ga slug shotgun for shooting deer. I didn't want to highjack that thread so I though I would ask my question here instead:

Why would one use a 12ga or 20ga shotgun with slugs over a larger calibre rifle? I hear that 20ga are pretty accurate out to about 150 yards however a lot of rifles can hit out to 300 yards (adduming the shooter is skilled enough). Is it just a versatility issue where you can use a shotgun for other hunts as well (unless it is rifled)?

I would really like to hear your feedback :)

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Three hundred yards is no easy feet with a rifle. Experience will teach you that. Many rifles don't do 200 yards well either.

Regardless of what you choose, practice is what makes the difference as long as the firearm is capable of shooting to those distances.

Others have pointed out where you hunt has a lot to do with your choice.

If you choose a slug gun then buy a good 20 gauge. I know you were looking at my 12 slugger but that isn't the right choice IMO. The 20 gauge sluggers are good to 200 yards. At least almost every one of mine were if I did my part.

If rifles are allowed get something in 270 and you are covered. As a friend of mine used to say from a mouse to a moose. No contest as sabot slugs run $3 a shot versus a decent rifle round at $1.25 a round.

IMO just get out shooting as much as possible.

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Originally Posted by dutchhunter

you would real have to step up to a big rifle to have the same inpact at 50 yards that a 12 slug would have .anybody have the numbers of what a 12g slug will compare to in a rifle cal at 50 yards .

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20ga slugs are on par with factory loaded 45-70.
12ga slugs are about the same as a 308 150gr.

These are sabot slugs.

Dumb slugs start in 12ga start out with about 2800 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle but lose it fast, down to 2000 at 25 yards and 1452 at 50 yards.
The 20ga starts at 1860 ft lbs at the muzzle, 1330 at 25 yards, 982 at 50 yards.
The crazy thing is that the 410 3" slug starts out at 783 at the muzzle, 553 at 25 yards and 393 at 50 yards, these numbers are higher than the 357 Mag (535, 483, 440) out to about 40 yards.

I still wonder why we cannot use pistol cartridge rifles with plugged magazines for deer in SW Ontario, they are mush less dangerous at long range than the high velocity slugs on the market today.

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Originally Posted by dutchhunter

you would real have to step up to a big rifle to have the same inpact at 50 yards that a 12 slug would have .anybody have the numbers of what a 12g slug will compare to in a rifle cal at 50 yards .

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At 50 yards a 12 ga slug (non-sabot) has lost a lot of energy. Most .30 cal (even the .30-30 with 170gr loads come close) and bigger rifles will have more energy at 50 yards than a 12 ga slug.

Where did these numbers come from? They make no sense as the 20 gauge would have nothing at 100 yards. I have punched clean through a big buck at 125 yards taking 4 ribs along with it.

This does not equate.

Now let's look at momentum instead of energy, which places greater value on speed versus weight....Suddenly all the values change....
A lot of the high energy bullets have trouble dumping that energy before they leave the animal so might only impart half of it.

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Originally Posted by Pat32rf

Now let's look at momentum instead of energy, which places greater value on speed versus weight....Suddenly all the values change....
A lot of the high energy bullets have trouble dumping that energy before they leave the animal so might only impart half of it.

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Momentum favours weight over speed - so slugs will get a more favourable comparision to rifles using it - but it isn't usually used in such comparisons.

Re numbers: Hard to get a good table of slug ballistics. This information is from chuckhawks - foster styled slugs.
"Conventional Foster type rifled slugs generally weigh 1 ounce in 12 gauge, 4/5 ounce in 16 gauge, 5/8 ounce in 20 gauge, and 1/5 ounce (or 87 grains) in .410 gauge. The 12 gauge slug has an advertised muzzle velocity (MV) of 1560 fps from a 2 3/4" high-brass shell, 1680 fps from a 2 3/4" Magnum shell, or 1760 fps from a 3" Magnum shell. These are Remington figures from their 2004 catalog. The MV's of the other gauges are similar.

The catalog energy figures for the common high-brass ("maximum") 12 gauge slug load are an impressive 2361 ft. lbs. at the muzzle, but only 926 ft. lbs. at 100 yards. This is due to the very poor BC of the slug. Sighted to hit dead on at 50 yards, that slug is 4.8" low at 100 yards. The more powerful 12 gauge slugs are only marginally better, and kick noticeably harder. No matter what, rifled slugs remain a short range proposition.

Stick with 12 gauge Foster type slugs for deer hunting as the smaller gauges pack much less punch. The 20 gauge slug develops only 648 ft. lbs. of energy at 100 yards, which given its low SD is not encouraging. I have done some testing with .410 rifled slugs and they are definitely not adequate deer loads. The less said about these small bore rifled slugs the better."

After doing a cursory ballistics chart check,it looks like 45/70 holds much more velocity and energy out to 200yds than a 12ga. sabot slug,after which the slug is in the dirt. It was just a quick Google check. Maybe someone can go into more detail.

Wow it seems like this has took a technical turn which is fantastic! A little over my head right now but I am looking up terms that are being thrown out and doing some additional research to stay on top of what all you brainiacs are saying haha. Keep it coming!

Just an FYI I do have a .22 already. My brother in laws got me a Savage 64G for my wedding present. My wife's family are huge hunters so now I need to step up and do my part in the family hunts lol.

Werner - my comments were aimed toward fox.


Rifled slugs are certainly a 100 yard game. Sabots are not

?????

Your saying slugs are more accurate then a sabot coming out of a rifled slug barrel??

Generally a rifled slug was considered a 50 - 75 yard and Sabots out to 150 - 200.

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

Werner - my comments were aimed toward fox.


Rifled slugs are certainly a 100 yard game. Sabots are not

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No he's saying rifled slugs are up to 100 yards - sabots work at longer ranges.

I guess one thing that needs to be cleared up in any slug discussion is what we are talking about - foster styled vs brenneke styled vs sabots. All different.

Exactly. Then throw in the all / mixed copper bullets with wide ranging BC and there you have a real wide range of results.

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

Werner - my comments were aimed toward fox.


Rifled slugs are certainly a 100 yard game. Sabots are not

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Go look at a ballistics chart, the 20ga rifled slug has very little energy.

It is a wide slug with a short length, it has a very bad ballistic coefficient and sheds velocity quickly.
E=1/2m * v^2

When you lose speed you lose energy a lot faster than when you lose mass.

You also have to look at 20ga vs 12ga, 20ga slugs and 12ga slugs will even out down range due to a smaller diameter and therefore better ballistic coefficient.

Sabots:
The Hornady SST slug in 20ga has 1212 fps and 815 ft-lbs of energy at 200 yards.
The Winchester 3" slug in 20ga has 1341 fps and 1037 ft-lbs of energy at 200 yards.
The Hornady SST slug in 12ga has 1341 fps and 1198 ft-lbs of energy at 200 yards.

Rifled Slugs:
The Winchester Super-X Slug in 20ga has 748 fps and 407 ft-lbs of energy at 200 yards.
The Winchester Super-X Slug in 20ga has 763 fps and 565 ft-lbs of energy at 200 yards.

For Comparison:
The Winchester Super-X in 30-30 Win - 170gr - has 1604 fps and 970 ft-lbs at 200 yards.
The Winchester Super-X in 45-70 - 300gr - has 1414 fps and 1331 ft-lbs at 200 yards.

To prove Ballistic Coefficient lets look at Lever Revolution Ammunition, which has a minimal increase in muzzle velocity.
The Hornady 30-30 - 325gr - has 1916 fps and 1304 ft-lbs at 200 yards.
The Hornady 45-70 - 325gr - has 1450 fps and 1516 ft-lbs at 200 yards.

The 20ga sabot slug to 45-70 comparison is actually not a bad one, based on the standard loading (light) for factory 45-70 round. The idea though is that the slug in a 20ga sabot is normally about .45 caliber, it is a pistol style bullet and has a very similar ballistic coefficient to that of the 45-70.

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

Exactly. Then throw in the all / mixed copper bullets with wide ranging BC and there you have a real wide range of results.

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Exactly

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

No he's saying rifled slugs are up to 100 yards - sabots work at longer ranges.

I guess one thing that needs to be cleared up in any slug discussion is what we are talking about - foster styled vs brenneke styled vs sabots. All different.

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There are tons of options, a lot of them won't hit where you are aiming with your gun.

If you can find a 3" sabot slug that shoots accurately in your gun for the average shooter (under 200 yards) there is no need for anything besides the 20ga for deer. The only advantage to any of the other guns is more rounds in the magazine.

A 12ga does not really do much more for you besides being able to use your duck gun. The 12ga sabot slug is about equal to the 3in 20ga at long range and is not needed at shorter ranges. I use a 12ga because I do not yet have a 20ga, I know that it is heavy and kicks like a mule. My fiancee's 20ga with remington slugger slugs is not the most accurate and we know it will lose velocity fast, but up to 50 yards it will smack the pie plate every time and with the clamp on sights will do that every time. It is light to carry and she can shoot it no problem, she is only 5'1".

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Originally Posted by Fox

20ga slugs are on par with factory loaded 45-70.
12ga slugs are about the same as a 308 150gr.

These are sabot slugs.

Dumb slugs start in 12ga start out with about 2800 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle but lose it fast, down to 2000 at 25 yards and 1452 at 50 yards.
The 20ga starts at 1860 ft lbs at the muzzle, 1330 at 25 yards, 982 at 50 yards.
The crazy thing is that the 410 3" slug starts out at 783 at the muzzle, 553 at 25 yards and 393 at 50 yards, these numbers are higher than the 357 Mag (535, 483, 440) out to about 40 yards.

I still wonder why we cannot use pistol cartridge rifles with plugged magazines for deer in SW Ontario, they are mush less dangerous at long range than the high velocity slugs on the market today.

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Fox, did you see the ENERGY figures for the .410 slug? They have about the energy at the muzzle that a 170-grain .30-30 has at 300 yards.

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Originally Posted by Kilo Charlie

Fox, did you see the ENERGY figures for the .410 slug? They have about the energy at the muzzle that a 170-grain .30-30 has at 300 yards.

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Ya and both marginal for anything greater in size than the common gopher. Ya I know. The thuddy thuddy has killed more deer than anything else. Babe Ruth also holds the home run record. You know who also holds the record for most strike outs? (Hint, same name). When Your the only gun in the bush, which for a very long time the thuddy was, of course You'll have the highest kill numbers. They also have the highest wound numbers too. Neither one would ever be pointed at an animal I intended to harvest

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

After doing a cursory ballistics chart check,it looks like 45/70 holds much more velocity and energy out to 200yds than a 12ga. sabot slug,after which the slug is in the dirt. It was just a quick Google check. Maybe someone can go into more detail.

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Ya and if that's not factory loaded to trapdoor pressure (which all factory is), but rather it's come off a hand loader's bench with a 350 grain hard cast slug barreling out at 2200 fps, it's significantly different

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Originally Posted by Kilo Charlie

Fox, did you see the ENERGY figures for the .410 slug? They have about the energy at the muzzle that a 170-grain .30-30 has at 300 yards.

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Those were the energy numbers for 410, compared to 357 Mag.

I did not say that you should go out and shoot the 410 for deer, but I wanted to compare it to the 357 which some people say is a good round for deer, I disagree.

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Originally Posted by standup

Ya and both marginal for anything greater in size than the common gopher. Ya I know. The thuddy thuddy has killed more deer than anything else. Babe Ruth also holds the home run record. You know who also holds the record for most strike outs? (Hint, same name). When Your the only gun in the bush, which for a very long time the thuddy was, of course You'll have the highest kill numbers. They also have the highest wound numbers too. Neither one would ever be pointed at an animal I intended to harvest

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.30-30 has lots of energy for deer....but not at 300 yards. The .44mag is a low end deer cartridge at best. Many of the factory .44mag handgun loads are to weak (insufficient speed for proper expansion), even with HP. The .357 and other handgun cartridges just don't cut it.

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

.30-30 has lots of energy for deer....but not at 300 yards. The .44mag is a low end deer cartridge at best. Many of the factory .44mag handgun loads are to weak (insufficient speed for proper expansion), even with HP. The .357 and other handgun cartridges just don't cut it.

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The thuddy for urban/farm deer maybe. I've watched our hill deer take a thuddy through and through like it was Your daisy red rider. You can thank Clint Eastwood for people having the notion that the cartridge lives up to "MAGNUM"

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

.30-30 has lots of energy for deer....but not at 300 yards. The .44mag is a low end deer cartridge at best. Many of the factory .44mag handgun loads are to weak (insufficient speed for proper expansion), even with HP. The .357 and other handgun cartridges just don't cut it.

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We had a guy at camp tell me that he could run faster than the 30-30 and that it was a useless cartridge and the rifles were only good for boat anchors. He also stated that he was using a 44 Mag that year, a Ruger (really nice rifle) but he borrowed it, never took a shot with it and claimed the reloads ran 240gr bullets at 3000fps, hmm.

My post was for perspective, I see you got it.
20ga shotguns vs 12ga shotguns with sabot slugs makes no difference to the deer, they will be dead. The 12ga may hurt your shoulder a little more and weigh you down over a long haul.

Remember when people shot deer with a 38-40, 44-40 and 45 LC? I guess deer have gotten tougher, did they can armour plating in their fur over the years?

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Originally Posted by Fox

We had a guy at camp tell me that he could run faster than the 30-30 and that it was a useless cartridge and the rifles were only good for boat anchors. He also stated that he was using a 44 Mag that year, a Ruger (really nice rifle) but he borrowed it, never took a shot with it and claimed the reloads ran 240gr bullets at 3000fps, hmm.

My post was for perspective, I see you got it.
20ga shotguns vs 12ga shotguns with sabot slugs makes no difference to the deer, they will be dead. The 12ga may hurt your shoulder a little more and weigh you down over a long haul.

Remember when people shot deer with a 38-40, 44-40 and 45 LC? I guess deer have gotten tougher, did they can armour plating in their fur over the years?

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Not sure about the other two - but the .44-40 doesn't really get it done much better than a good crossbow.

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

Not sure about the other two - but the .44-40 doesn't really get it done much better than a good crossbow.

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Neither does the 38-40 or the 45LC, all 3 of these were pistol/carbine cartridges originally in blackpowder. They were designed to be used in the rifle and pistol so the owner only had to buy ammo for 1, saved space and money.

The 45LC can be hot loaded in a rifle to get up to around the 44 Mag power but based on factory loads they are quite low. That being said, they were the go to deer cartridges before the "high velocity" 30-30 came out. It has been argued that the 44-40 has shot more deer in history than the 30-30 but I would not argue either way. All 3 of these were used in close quarters and ruined very little meat but so did the 22LR when it was needed.

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Originally Posted by Fox

We had a guy at camp tell me that he could run faster than the 30-30 and that it was a useless cartridge and the rifles were only good for boat anchors. He also stated that he was using a 44 Mag that year, a Ruger (really nice rifle) but he borrowed it, never took a shot with it and claimed the reloads ran 240gr bullets at 3000fps, hmm.

My post was for perspective, I see you got it.
20ga shotguns vs 12ga shotguns with sabot slugs makes no difference to the deer, they will be dead. The 12ga may hurt your shoulder a little more and weigh you down over a long haul.

Remember when people shot deer with a 38-40, 44-40 and 45 LC? I guess deer have gotten tougher, did they can armour plating in their fur over the years?

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No but the difference between yesterday's deer and today's is the same difference I sight when I say urban/farm/use to people deer to high hill wild deer. Not as high strung fight or flight

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Originally Posted by standup

No but the difference between yesterday's deer and today's is the same difference I sight when I say urban/farm/use to people deer to high hill wild deer. Not as high strung fight or flight

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A hole in the chest if a hole in the chest, the fact that the deer may take off has nothing to do with it.
If you get within 20 yards for a bow shot it is no different than using a 38-40 at that same range. I have been told though that the 30-30, 20ga and many other rounds "cannot kill a deer". That does not sound right to me, at 300 yards maybe, but I know for sure that my personal range is not even close to 300 yards, so no need for a 300 yard deer gun for me.

As for a shotgun, in the bush we push, if I am the dogger, I cannot seem more than 10 yards, anything legal for a shotgun will work great. 410 slug would do it just fine, 20ga with #1 buck, 20ga slug, 12ga slug, you don't need sights, nothing, it is that close. That being said, if you are in the fields use some sort of scope with a 20ga slug and there is no need for a large caliber rifle up to the 200 yard range, it will make no difference on a deer sized animal with thin skin and bones. 45 caliber slugs with a muzzle velocity of 1800fps pack a punch.

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Originally Posted by Fox

A hole in the chest if a hole in the chest, the fact that the deer may take off has nothing to do with it.
If you get within 20 yards for a bow shot it is no different than using a 38-40 at that same range. I have been told though that the 30-30, 20ga and many other rounds "cannot kill a deer". That does not sound right to me, at 300 yards maybe, but I know for sure that my personal range is not even close to 300 yards, so no need for a 300 yard deer gun for me.

As for a shotgun, in the bush we push, if I am the dogger, I cannot seem more than 10 yards, anything legal for a shotgun will work great. 410 slug would do it just fine, 20ga with #1 buck, 20ga slug, 12ga slug, you don't need sights, nothing, it is that close. That being said, if you are in the fields use some sort of scope with a 20ga slug and there is no need for a large caliber rifle up to the 200 yard range, it will make no difference on a deer sized animal with thin skin and bones. 45 caliber slugs with a muzzle velocity of 1800fps pack a punch.

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Where you get into trouble with the underpowered rounds (.410 slug, .357 etc) is when you don't have what would be a reasonable bow shot (i.e. broadside or quartering away). I'd have no trouble with a texas heart shot with a .30-30 170gr. I wouldn't be so confident with a .410, .357 or even a .44 mag.

I've often heard the term "I wounded it"

Oddly enough while standing there looking down at a well anchored animal I've never heard "He's too dead"

Therefore

I'll stick with a little ooomph

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Originally Posted by standup

I've often heard the term "I wounded it"

Oddly enough while standing there looking down at a well anchored animal I've never heard "He's too dead"

Therefore

I'll stick with a little ooomph

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That's why I like the 265 gr .444 rounds.

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

That's why I like the 265 gr .444 rounds.

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I agree. Whether it's a .444 or .45/70 out to about 150M,they are definitely the Sultans of Swat. LOL

Side car or heavy duty truck with leather seats?
Slugs have always been a makeshift solution. The reason why we still have them is regulation based. For example, changes were made in NY to allow rifles in more counties – guess what people use now.
Granted that slug guns came a long way; i.e. closer to rifles. The reason why they exist is because there is a market for it, and the market exists, because regulation don’t allow rifles in some areas as we all know. There is absolutely NO technical reason for that.
Speaking of safety. It doesn’t make any difference in medium populated areas if the projectile travels 1.5km or 5.0km. All that matters is that you have a safe backstop as both are equally dangerous. Remember, if you shoot from a tree-stand you have in most cases the ground as safe backstop. If you run around you rarely have ever a safe backstop. Long story short, the entire shotgun & muzzleloader rules make absolutely no sense!
No doubt, centre fire. If you prefer a big slow pill or ultra-fast tiny projectiles is another topic on its own as both concepts have merits and downfalls.

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Originally Posted by standup

The thuddy for urban/farm deer maybe. I've watched our hill deer take a thuddy through and through like it was Your daisy red rider. You can thank Clint Eastwood for people having the notion that the cartridge lives up to "MAGNUM"

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Never found any of the big woods deer I shot with a 30-30 went very far with no lungs. Yeah, if the dogs were on them and the adrenaline was flowing, they would continue on for a ways dead on their feet but ended up no less dead than when I shot them with the 30-06.

Honestly if I had an option to use a rifle it would be a no brainer. Don't need a large cal one either. Nice 270 does well.

I spend a lot if time trying to make my slug guns and muzzleloader shoot like a rifle and they are solid 200 yard guns the mz is closer to 250. I have shot many deer beyond 100 yards and have no complaints with regard to performance but 200 yards is limiting and you must account for bullet drop more than with a rifle and at 3 bucks plus a shot it isn't cheap.

I understand the reg and why it exists and wouldn't want guys hunting with rifles around the bush I hunt. Too many guys too close.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

Where you get into trouble with the underpowered rounds (.410 slug, .357 etc) is when you don't have what would be a reasonable bow shot (i.e. broadside or quartering away). I'd have no trouble with a texas heart shot with a .30-30 170gr. I wouldn't be so confident with a .410, .357 or even a .44 mag.

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Again, not condoning any use of any round, I just brought up the fact that people say the 357 out of a handgun is a good deer load, but a 410 is useless, even though they are about the same when you look at the numbers.

People also claim the 12ga foster slug is a powerful round, but fail to see how fast it sheds velocity and becomes anemic. If you look at the numbers then sabot slugs at high velocity are on par with the big bore rifles. High velocity rifles will always hold more velocity than a slug with a poor BC, but there are slug options that compete with rifles within normal deer hunting ranges.

The 30-30 is a great deer round and with the Lever Revolution ammo it steps up on the BC scale. I have a Win 94 and got my fiancee a CIL bolt action in 30-30, it is a great caliber for deer sized game, but so is a 20ga sabot slug with a proper sight.

A 357 CAN be a deer killer, with the right slug, from the right gun at tree stand ranges and conditions on stationary deer. For moving animals it can't compare with a 30-30. At least a 44mag gave exit wounds on a broadside shoulder shot (again, with the right slugs), something the 357 would never do.

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Originally Posted by SongDog

These shotgun only areas where designed back when shotguns were only smoothbore and ammo was not like it was today.


These new shotguns are pretty much rifles, I wonder how long before they are banned.....



Stupid rule anyways because I can use my .243 for all small game and it shoots A LOT farther and flatter than my rifled barrel shotgun

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This is exactly why they aren't allowed for the controlled hunts around here.

Southern Ontario is heavily populated and slugs will travel a much shorter distance than a typical rifle someone would choose for deer (.243, 25-06, .270) meaning they're far safer to use during the controlled gun hunts when there are tons of people in the bush, often hunting around developed areas.

Quick comparisons:

3" 20 gauge sabot. With a 100 yard zero the slug will drop 90" (almost 8 FEET) at 300 yards.
.243. With a 100 yard zero the bullet will drop only 11" at 300 yards and 50" at 500 yards.

So, when those small armies are out taking a dozen shots at one deer those slugs will be in the dirt long before they have the chance to hit another hunter or house in most cases. Let those guys use a .243 to do the same thing and the bullets could go 3-400 yards and still easily be high enough off the ground to hit an unintended target.

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Originally Posted by ch312

...

3" 20 gauge sabot. With a 100 yard zero the slug will drop 90" (almost 8 FEET) at 300 yards.
.243. With a 100 yard zero the bullet will drop only 11" at 300 yards and 50" at 500 yards.

....

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first scenario: a good chance of wounding game (because people unfortunately do shoot well beyond 100yrds, especially those who don't practice often enough and are therefore completely oblivious to pay attention to distance and bullet drop)
second scenario: insignificantly more dangerous - in other words a slug is just as dangerous if you don't have a safe backstop! so telling people (and some only hear what they want to hear...) that shooting a slug is much safer can be actually really dangerous....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ch312

Quick comparisons:

3" 20 gauge sabot. With a 100 yard zero the slug will drop 90" (almost 8 FEET) at 300 yards.
.243. With a 100 yard zero the bullet will drop only 11" at 300 yards and 50" at 500 yards.

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Your numbers are a little off on the shotgun.

Hornady SST 2 3/4in 20ga

sighted in at 150 yards, 8.2in drop at 200 yards, 100 yard zero would be about 12.5in drop at 200 yards.

http://www.hornady.com/store/20-GA-SST-Slug-250gr-SST/

Not 8 feet.

Winchester 2 3/4" 20ga foster style slug when sighted in at 100 yards drops about 36in at 200 yards.

Sorry, I don't want to be too negative, but the numbers are there.

Sorry ch312, I misread the yardage.

300 yards is a heck of a long shot with a crappy BC on a sabot slug.

8 feet? That is nuts.

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Originally Posted by Waftrudnir

first scenario: a good chance of wounding game (because people unfortunately do shoot well beyond 100yrds, especially those who don't practice often enough and are therefore completely oblivious to pay attention to distance and bullet drop)
second scenario: insignificantly more dangerous - in other words a slug is just as dangerous if you don't have a safe backstop! so telling people (and some only hear what they want to hear...) that shooting a slug is much safer can be actually really dangerous....

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Being restricted to slugs is FAR SAFER than using centerfire rifles in heavily populated area's as the range in which the bullet remains dangerous after missing the intended target is half that of the .243 example used. Then you have to factor in ricochets as a centerfire bullet will travel much father after a ricochet when compared to a slug.


Hunter takes a shot with his 20 gauge that's zero'd at 100 yards when the deer is 150 yards away and makes a clean miss. The slug loses steam very quickly and will be in the ground at around 250 yards or less.

Hunter takes a shot with his .243 at a deer that is 150 yards away and makes a clean miss. The bullet will retain velocity and energy for much longer meaning the bullet won't be in the ground until it's maybe 450-500 yards away, essentially doubling the distance that the bullet can potentially hit an unintended target.



Bullet A (20 gauge) will go 250 yards before hitting the ground.
Bullet B (.243) will go 500 yards before hitting the ground.

It seems very clear which one would have the higher risk of hitting an unintended target, no?

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Originally Posted by Fox

Your numbers are a little off on the shotgun.

Hornady SST 2 3/4in 20ga

sighted in at 150 yards, 8.2in drop at 200 yards, 100 yard zero would be about 12.5in drop at 200 yards.

http://www.hornady.com/store/20-GA-SST-Slug-250gr-SST/

Not 8 feet.

Winchester 2 3/4" 20ga foster style slug when sighted in at 100 yards drops about 36in at 200 yards.

Sorry, I don't want to be too negative, but the numbers are there.

Sorry ch312, I misread the yardage.

300 yards is a heck of a long shot with a crappy BC on a sabot slug.

8 feet? That is nuts.

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Yep, slugs lose velocity very quickly and are intended for relatively short range when compared to center fire rifles. Hence the reason for hunters being restricted to their use in heavily populated area's.

It doesn't take a whole lot of thinking to see HOW and WHY slugs are the safer option in heavily populated area's.



Do I agree with this restriction? Of course not, I would love to be able to use any caliber I'd like for hunting around here. The problem is many deer hunters hunt only during the controlled deer hunts and the result is slugs flying in every direction due to the "spray and pray" mentality of these inexperienced hunters. While I wouldn't say these people are safe when using a slug gun as I have seen and heard some crazy thing's, but I would definitely say that slug guns are MUCH safer in their hands than a rifle would be.