Shooting a coyote while wild turkey hunting

Looking for some clarification.

Let's assume I'm wild turkey hunting when Mr Coyote wanders by. The landowner has made it clear he wouldn't mind seeing the coyote population reduced.

Can I drop the hammer on it?

A friend says otherwise:

Abandoned and spoiled meat, pelts, etc.
Abandonment of meat
36. (1) A hunter or trapper who kills a game mammal, game bird, game amphibian or game reptile shall not abandon it if its flesh may become unsuitable for human consumption.
Spoiled flesh
(2) A person who possesses a game mammal, game bird, game amphibian or game reptile that was hunted or trapped shall not permit its flesh to become unsuitable for human consumption.
Abandonment or spoilage of pelts
(3) A hunter or trapper who kills a furbearing mammal shall not abandon the pelt or permit the pelt to be spoiled or destroyed.
Exceptions
(4) Subsection (3) does not apply in the circumstances prescribed by the regulations.

Skin it and keep the pelt. Then no worries.

What GW said. There is no restrictions that apply to overlapping game hunting unless you look at the type of firearm.

Skinning it would be purely academic just to comply with the law correct? The pelt would have no value at this time of year?

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Originally Posted by buckchaser

Skinning it would be purely academic just to comply with the law correct? The pelt would have no value at this time of year?

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Use the three s rule , SSS if you are worried about it.

The MNR doesn't enforce the spoilage law at this time of year because the pelt isn't worth anything. You also wouldn't be charged if you threw away a mangey pelt that is caught during the prime season.

I am still coyote hunting during the turkey season. I am hunting on a farm where the farmer has already lost a calf to the yotes. Not sure what the pelt will look like but I do know that Wile E Coyote has to go, one way or another!

WEll to me I would say that we should not shot the yotes this time of year as you could be letting a whole litter of pups starve .To me this would not be right ,animal control is one thing but to shot it just to shot it is another thing ,to each there own ,but who wants to see critters suffer and pups starving is not a good way to go ,,,save them till fall and winter ,,Dutch just my 2 cents

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Originally Posted by dutchhunter

WEll to me I would say that we should not shot the yotes this time of year as you could be letting a whole litter of pups starve .To me this would not be right ,animal control is one thing but to shot it just to shot it is another thing ,to each there own ,but who wants to see critters suffer and pups starving is not a good way to go ,,,save them till fall and winter ,,Dutch just my 2 cents

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I agree with you there Dutch! however this time of year the females are staying with and close to their pups feeding them , chances are very high that the coyotes you are seeing are the males doing the hunting for both , himself and bringing home the food for the female.
One big reason that most do not hunt and shoot coyotes this time of year , it is very cruel to let young pups starve as they are still nursing and killing by accident the mother , is morally wrong ! but there are those that do not care.

Your not to let a pelt of a fur bearing animal go to waste. It's in the regs. If the pelt is of no use for you, don't shoot, leave it to the trappers.

That's what the CO's here will tell you.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

I agree with you there Dutch! however this time of year the females are staying with and close to their pups feeding them , chances are very high that the coyotes you are seeing are the males doing the hunting for both , himself and bringing home the food for the female.
One big reason that most do not hunt and shoot coyotes this time of year , it is very cruel to let young pups starve as they are still nursing and killing by accident the mother , is morally wrong ! but there are those that do not care.

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However how many fawns can you save right now by shooting a yote. If one goes for my turkey decoy he or she toast. That litter of pups is more fawn killers....

Season for coyotes is open all year round.
Also if you have been given permission on a farm with the understanding that coyotes that are seen are to be shot, don't be surprised if you don't do it that the farmers find someone who will.

Lol," Wasting of Meat". Do you know one Hunter that eats coyotes??? I don't.

The only good coyote is a dead coyote ! That's why there is an open season on them.

Who said wasting meat. There is a penalty under F&W for letting a hide of a fur bearing (wolf or coyote) rot.

Kinda like the guys who catch Northern Pike and throw them on the ice for the eagles. If you don't use the coyote pelts don't shoot them.

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Originally Posted by Greenhorn

Lol," Wasting of Meat". Do you know one Hunter that eats coyotes??? I don't.

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A member of our deer camp will eat yotes. :whacked: As for shooting them this time of year..........let yer conscience be your guide.......................Boog

Also, coyote season is open year round but a small game permit is not valid during summer months. ie: June 15 to opening of rabbit.

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

Also, coyote season is open year round but a small game permit is not valid during summer months. ie: June 15 to opening of rabbit.

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Chris down here in the south half small game is good all year also as for the pelt only if has market value so at this time of year the pelt has no value esp if there is any mange so you not going to be charged with wasting the pelt

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

Also, coyote season is open year round but a small game permit is not valid during summer months. ie: June 15 to opening of rabbit.

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Small game licenses are valid down here,Chris,and Coyote is open all year for a reason. They're classed as varmints and farmers want them shot on sight,especially sheep and cattle operations. The damage is unbelievable and insurance companies only cover a nominal flat rate amount per animal,so,if their prize breed bull or ram gets hamstrung and has to be put down if it's not killed outright,the insurance company will only pay about $50 after anything they may get from the township (usually bugger-all). We all know what happens to insurance rates after several claims,don't we? This time of year,pelts are worthless. No charges are ever going to be laid,so,we whack every one we see.

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Originally Posted by dutchhunter

WEll to me I would say that we should not shot the yotes this time of year as you could be letting a whole litter of pups starve .To me this would not be right ,animal control is one thing but to shot it just to shot it is another thing ,to each there own ,but who wants to see critters suffer and pups starving is not a good way to go ,,,save them till fall and winter ,,Dutch just my 2 cents

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There is not better time for animal control than now. Sentiment aside there is no right time for an animal to die.

Sounds like you guys have it made with game regs. I learn something everyday!!

If one came to my decoy I would drop the hammer on it every time. If the farmer is having loss due to coyote conceder it part of the hunter/landowner agreement. I do understand the opinion others are expressing on the wasting of pelts and the possibility of a abandoning pups but in after weighing the options which I have done many times over the years, it would still be coyote down.

Small game licenses and fishing licenses are valid for a full calendar year in Ontario. The small game season may be regulated. But those animals that don't fall under a closed season can be hunted all year long with a small game license. Ie coyotes in unregulated zones, crows and ground hogs.

This situation comes up each year in discussions. It becomes very clear the positions that some individuals take, it is usually due to lack of knowledge or respect for the animals we hunt. Other than that some feel they are the appointed ones to act for certain reasons.

I have chased and hunted coyotes probably longer than some have hunted. I would never shoot one at this time of the year unless you were faced with a very dominant killing coyote, then sure for obvious reasons.

We need to have respect for the animals we hunt, we need to have a set of ethics that determine our actions.

So sure go ahead but maybe take the time to find the den and finish the job. Almost all the serious coyote hunters I have met and run with would never shoot one at this time of the year.

All that however does not prevent others from doing so..........

I just read the handbook. I guess I need to read about the south before I voice my opinion.

There was a time when I had feelings and morals for all game and for the most part I do BUT not when it comes to coyotes which are an invasive species NOT NATIVE to Ontario. They are a constant threat to our wildlife population and to most farm animals.
I shoot them on sight at every opportunity. I have seen first hand the carnage ranging from deer to turkeys to cattle and sheep and pets!

3 yrs ago, while turkey hunting I killed 5. 4 males (one monster) and a female. Come the end of May coyotes will be on a 24/7 search for fawns. Our deer herd is too low to continue feeding these rascals.

My suggestion and advice is to end every turkey set with about 5 minutes of fawn or rabbit distress. Coyotes are real responsive since they're on the hunt every day - all day. Like robins looking for worms. Real easy to call in.

I drag mine out of sight and return them to nature. Sometimes another coyote eats them!

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

This situation comes up each year in discussions. It becomes very clear the positions that some individuals take, it is usually due to lack of knowledge or respect for the animals we hunt. Other than that some feel they are the appointed ones to act for certain reasons.

I have chased and hunted coyotes probably longer than some have hunted. I would never shoot one at this time of the year unless you were faced with a very dominant killing coyote, then sure for obvious reasons.

We need to have respect for the animals we hunt, we need to have a set of ethics that determine our actions.

So sure go ahead but maybe take the time to find the den and finish the job. Almost all the serious coyote hunters I have met and run with would never shoot one at this time of the year.

All that however does not prevent others from doing so..........

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Respectfully I disagree. I have privileges on two decent size farms. If they are seen they are to be shot along with a few other varmints. I will do this each and every time.

Many of us do not own land and we rely on the good relationships we have built with the land owners/farmers. If you have not lost animals to these predators then you are the one who is lacking knowledge.

Personally I believe they have no place in our ecosystem. They consume everything including livestock and pets.

Growing up on a farm we couldn't afford your ideals. Should you not shoot a ground hog because it might have little ones? By your sentiments we shouldn't clip those either. Hopefully you can see my perspective.

On Monday a coyote came out to a fellow I was hunting with and he did not shoot it because 4 Toms were close by. I had to remind him that hunting this land is a privilege and if he sees another regardless of our quarry being close, put it down. If it happens again he will not be invited back.

We are obliged to do the same in deer season or any for that matter, and if I have one conversation with a gang member about passing on these predators you will be guaranteed that I won't have a second.

Its not always about what we want as hunters. I derive no joy from eradicating pests but it is a necessary function.

Just my two cents.

Big Jack, thanks for bringing out the other point I forgot to make.......it's simple:

If I'm turkey hunting and I'm a serious turkey hunter, then last thing I'm going to do is trip a trigger and ruin my hunt for the morning.

I really have no problem with dealing with difficult animals especially any that may be causing us a problem but I do have a problem with those who seem to believe they were appointed to carry out some level of protection.

At this time of the year most coyotes are seriously into mousing. No doubt at any point in time deer can be taken if the conditions are right. Do you have any idea of the scat samplings that have been taken over many samplings....always the same....some small rodents and a high percentage of mice.

My ideals have developed over many years of hunting, spending time in the bush and understanding animal behaviour, unfortunately we have many who are lacking in many of those areas.

Your two cents were well expressed and I fully understand that position. There are many serious hunters that make other choices as well......guess that makes the world go round....

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Spoilage

28. A trapper who kills a furbearing mammal may, if the pelt is of no commercial value, abandon it or permit it to be spoiled or destroyed. O. Reg. 667/98, s. 28.

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134. A hunter who is licensed or authorized to kill a furbearing mammal is exempt from subsection 36 (3) of the Act and may abandon a pelt or permit a pelt to be spoiled or destroyed if the pelt is of no commercial value. O. Reg. 665/98, s. 134.

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Above are the sections of the act that allow circumstances where a pelt of a fur bearing mammal can be allowed to spoil and lets keep in mind that there are areas of the Province where the coyote season is not open all year.

Redd Foxx, where in the hand book does it have this info you posted. I'm sure it's there, I just can't find it.

Down here in wmu 65 small game permit is valid all year. Up above wmu 48 is where the June 15 takes effect.

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

Also, coyote season is open year round but a small game permit is not valid during summer months. ie: June 15 to opening of rabbit.

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Wolf and Coyote season is open in most of WMUs 1-58 on September 15 to March 31 the following year. With the exception of a few geographic regions with no season.

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

This situation comes up each year in discussions. It becomes very clear the positions that some individuals take, it is usually due to lack of knowledge or respect for the animals we hunt. Other than that some feel they are the appointed ones to act for certain reasons.

I have chased and hunted coyotes probably longer than some have hunted. I would never shoot one at this time of the year unless you were faced with a very dominant killing coyote, then sure for obvious reasons.

We need to have respect for the animals we hunt, we need to have a set of ethics that determine our actions.

So sure go ahead but maybe take the time to find the den and finish the job. Almost all the serious coyote hunters I have met and run with would never shoot one at this time of the year.

All that however does not prevent others from doing so..........

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While I fully agree that respect for the animals you hunt is an important virtue, the wishes of the landowner come before the well-being of the coyotes on his/her property. I gained access to my best turkey property by agreeing to shoot coyotes on sight, whether it potentially "ruins" a hunt or not.

It's not that I believe that I've been "appointed to carry out some level of protection". The landowner has asked a favour in return for permission to hunt other game on the property. In my eyes no different than asking me to help with firewood or hay. Maybe it's not seen as "ethical" in the eyes of serious coyote hunters, but if I don't do it someone else will and I lose a friendly relationship with a landowner and a property to hunt.

Pest control is never pretty. Yes, I fully realize that shooting a coyote here and there is nowhere near an effective means of "controlling" their numbers, but it sure keeps the farmers happy.

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Originally Posted by GW11

While I fully agree that respect for the animals you hunt is an important virtue, the wishes of the landowner come before the well-being of the coyotes on his/her property. I gained access to my best turkey property by agreeing to shoot coyotes on sight, whether it potentially "ruins" a hunt or not.

It's not that I believe that I've been "appointed to carry out some level of protection". The landowner has asked a favour in return for permission to hunt other game on the property. In my eyes no different than asking me to help with firewood or hay. Maybe it's not seen as "ethical" in the eyes of serious coyote hunters, but if I don't do it someone else will and I lose a friendly relationship with a landowner and a property to hunt.

Pest control is never pretty. Yes, I fully realize that shooting a coyote here and there is nowhere near an effective means of "controlling" their numbers, but it sure keeps the farmers happy.

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Interestingly enough I am in pretty much the same situation. As I mentioned in my earlier post, the farmer has already lost one calf to the coyotes. His wishes come first since each time he looses an animal it comes out of his bottom line. Though there is insurance for loss due to predators it is not as simple, as easy or even close to being able to replace the loss. In a couple of years he would have sold that calf for >$1500 at the auction (I go there often so I can say this is an accurate number).
So, while I am turkey hunting in the coming weeks I will have a 22-250 beside me in the blind with a shotgun to deal with the coyotes. Another farmer that has allowed me to hunt his fields lost 5 lambs to coyotes last year. He is also out of pocket for near $1000.
So, the ethics are all well and nice but unfortunately the reality is simple, coyotes are predators and they simply do what they are programmed by nature to do. Yes, they will hunt mice this time of year but given an easy meal of a small farm animal they will default to the easy kill.

I hunt yotes when the fur is prime and with snow on the ground. That being said a farmer that allows us to hunt is who I will make happy if asked to shoot any yote or what ever game the MNR issues a permit for to take whatever out of season.

They ey don't fare too well if they get close enough to me either. All the coyotes I have shot during turkey season have been males.

can you have a rifle with you well hunting turkeys with a shotgun .I am not to sure about that ..I would not want to be cought with a 22 250 well in the turkey blind ,,D

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Originally Posted by dutchhunter

can you have a rifle with you well hunting turkeys with a shotgun .I am not to sure about that ..I would not want to be cought with a 22 250 well in the turkey blind ,,D

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Me either !!!!!

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Originally Posted by dutchhunter

can you have a rifle with you well hunting turkeys with a shotgun .I am not to sure about that ..I would not want to be cought with a 22 250 well in the turkey blind ,,D

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Nope! We may only carry the class of firearm prescribed for the game being hunted. That's one reason I only use #4-3" mag with a full choke. I'll either take the head off a Turkey or,at close range,a Coyote won't know what hit him. Carrying a rifle for Coyotes during a Turkey hunt is a recipe for disaster. With the woods full of camo'd up hunters,how could one be absolutely sure of their backdrop should there be a pass through shot or a miss? That's damn close to "careless hunting" charges,right there.

I've seen a few posts this week of guys who have dropped coyotes while out Turkey hunting.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Nope! We may only carry the class of firearm prescribed for the game being hunted. That's one reason I only use #4-3" mag with a full choke. I'll either take the head off a Turkey or,at close range,a Coyote won't know what hit him. Carrying a rifle for Coyotes during a Turkey hunt is a recipe for disaster. With the woods full of camo'd up hunters,how could one be absolutely sure of their backdrop should there be a pass through shot or a miss? That's damn close to "careless hunting" charges,right there.

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Let me qualify my situation. On the private land that I am hunting there are no other hunters unless they happen to sneak in past the farmer and trespass.
In the area there are open fields where the coyotes are roaming. No one is setting up in a wooded area with a rifle. If there is a need to go into the woods then a shotgun is all we (as in myself and one other hunter) take and we both know exactly where we are in relative position to the other.
So, in a very limited set of conditions when the farmer is reporting coyote activity it is an option that can be taken if the situation allows for it while acting as an agent for the farmer to protect livestock. This farmer doesn't shoot or hunt because he and his brother share a genetic defect that is causing both of them to loose their eyesight.
I am okay with this scenario since it is both safe and provides a service to someone that really needs it.

it is not legal to carry your rifle well hunting turkeys safe or not ,you will be charged if caught and rightly so ,it does not matter whos land you are on ..a rifle has no place in the turkey woods of southern Ontario ,,Dutch

I was told I can have both the shotgun and rifle well "Small Game" hunting by the CO's at the sportsmen show in london.

As I call and Karen Shoots turkey, I don't see why One can't be hunting Turkey and the other hunting Coyotes.

One with 4,5,6 shot and one loading OO/4BUCK and a .223.

Open fields and shooting down hill in to the bottom lands makes a good backstop. A varmet grenade fragments on a grape.

A few trillon tons of earth may be could stop it safely. I could be wrong be if a bullet blowup when hitting a grape but can punch thru both side of the Earths crust we have a problem.:joker:

If you are set up for turkeys, calling, decoys etc., and are in possession of a rifle, I can pretty much guarantee you will have a trip to court to explain, if a CO should catch you...now if you are set up with a fawn decoy and electronic varmint call...that's a totally different matter. If I were you, I would call and find out for certain. Put yourself in a CO's position. You find a guy all camoed up, turkey decoys and calling turkeys, with a rifle... But officer, I am coyote hunting.....sure buddy...here's your PON, and you can get your gun back once the court case is heard !!!

You have a quote from the regs that says you can't carry a rifle as well as a shotgun while turkey hunting?

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

...now if you are set up with a fawn decoy and electronic varmint call...that's a totally different matter. If I were you, I would call and find out for certain.

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If we use your logic I would be charged for hunting deer out of season in a no rifle WMU. I also do not have to make a call to find out anything. CO says I can use turkey decoys to hunt coyotes. People use fawn, rabbit decoys well hunting coyotes, as well as owl decoys while hunting crows. I can not use the E-caller with turjey sounds if anyone in the group is hunting turkeys, but I am also legal to use box/slat/mouth calls that sound like a turkey and turkey decoys when hunting coyote.
Turkeys, rabbits, mice, cats, dogs, deer, and many other things are all prey for coyotes.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

If we use your logic I would be charged for hunting deer out of season in a no rifle WMU. I also do not have to make a call to find out anything. CO says I can use turkey decoys to hunt coyotes. People use fawn, rabbit decoys well hunting coyotes, as well as owl decoys while hunting crows. I can not use the E-caller with turjey sounds if anyone in the group is hunting turkeys, but I am also legal to use box/slat/mouth calls that sound like a turkey and turkey decoys when hunting coyote.
Turkeys, rabbits, mice, cats, dogs, deer, and many other things are all prey for coyotes.

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The deer example is more clear-cut that the coyotes and turkey issue - if the deer shotgun season is open and you're out with your rifle you would be charged.

Re: using the turkey decoy to hunt coyotes - there was a thread on here about that and I thought the conclusion was you could, but not during turkey season.

What season is open at the time has a great deal of influence on how laws are interpreted.

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Originally Posted by Maximus44

You have a quote from the regs that says you can't carry a rifle as well as a shotgun while turkey hunting?

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The thing is max I am targeting coyotes. I have my .223 and the 12ga and am using a box or slat call. Karen is after a turkey and has only her 20 ga with a turkey legal shot size. The decoy are used by both of us. I can carry both rifle and shotgun which are both loaded well doing a stand for coyotes.

This would not be legal if I was hunting a large game and small game at the same time only one could be loaded...big game or small game.

Think of it this way. You and I are walking a trail carrying shotguns, both have small game licenses and bear tags.
Now I load my shotgun with #7.5 shot , and you drop a few 00 buckshot loads in yours..
What we hunting.....Does my load of 7.5 shot make you bear hunting illegal? I can even have #4 buckshot and 00 buckshot in my pack..but I am hunting small game right?

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

If we use your logic I would be charged for hunting deer out of season in a no rifle WMU. I also do not have to make a call to find out anything. CO says I can use turkey decoys to hunt coyotes. People use fawn, rabbit decoys well hunting coyotes, as well as owl decoys while hunting crows. I can not use the E-caller with turjey sounds if anyone in the group is hunting turkeys, but I am also legal to use box/slat/mouth calls that sound like a turkey and turkey decoys when hunting coyote.
Turkeys, rabbits, mice, cats, dogs, deer, and many other things are all prey for coyotes.

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You are comparing apples and oranges ! You can use a turkey decoy to hunt deer and coyotes for that matter. The difference is, you are set up to hunt turkeys, in turkey season, with a rifle..... I don't really know what you are getting at with the deer hunting thing. If you mean carrying a rifle or shotgun for yotes during a bows only season..you will be charged.
There have been charges laid here when a CO has checked turkey hunter's ammo, and they were carrying larger shot for coyotes. So, take your chances !!!

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

The deer example is more clear-cut that the coyotes and turkey issue - if the deer shotgun season is open and you're out with your rifle you would be charged.

Re: using the turkey decoy to hunt coyotes - there was a thread on here about that and I thought the conclusion was you could, but not during turkey season.

What season is open at the time has a great deal of influence on how laws are interpreted.

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With all due respect..No I would not be charged for hunting deer with a fawn decoy and my rifle/shotgun in a shotgun/archery only season. Same as hunting coyotes over turkey decoys during an open turkey season.

Since many season over lap, the type of gear and way one is hunting tells a lot. I have seen deer come charging or walking in to a coyote stand where an ecaller was blasting the old jack rabbit distress. Would you as a CO charge me for hunting deer because one walked in to my coyote setup?

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Originally Posted by Maximus44

You have a quote from the regs that says you can't carry a rifle as well as a shotgun while turkey hunting?

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From the regs.....I guess you would have to convince a JP you were only hunting coyotes, while turkey calling over turkey decoys....good luck with that !

79 - O.Reg 665/98

Hunt wild turkey with illegal firearm

Set Fine: $150.00

Total Payable: $180.00

A person who hunts wild turkey shall not use a firearm other than,

(a) a shotgun, including a muzzle-loading shotgun, not larger than number 10 gauge and not smaller than number 20 gauge loaded with shot sizes number 4, 5 or 6; or

(b) a cross-bow, long-

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

If you mean carrying a rifle or shotgun for yotes during a bows only season..you will be charged.

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Not South of the French River. Read your Regs.

I am not geared up for turkeys. I have a rifle and am targeting coyotes.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

With all due respect..No I would not be charged for hunting deer with a fawn decoy and my rifle/shotgun in a shotgun/archery only season. Same as hunting coyotes over turkey decoys during an open turkey season.

Since many season over lap, the type of gear and way one is hunting tells a lot. I have seen deer come charging or walking in to a coyote stand where an ecaller was blasting the old jack rabbit distress. Would you as a CO charge me for hunting deer because one walked in to my coyote setup?

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You cannot use a rifle to hunt anything during a shotgun only season. With last years early snow, I wanted to get out for yotes with the rifle. Since there was a controlled shotgun season on, I called the MNR. I was told I could not use my rifle during the shotgun hunt, even for yotes...

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Not South of the French River. Read your Regs.

I am not geared up for turkeys. I have a rifle and am targeting coyotes.

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You are right with the shotgun rifle in s bows only season. I meant to say, using a rifle during a shotgun only season.

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

You cannot use a rifle to hunt anything during a shotgun only season.

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Look at page 79 of your regs under Firearms in the section on Small game. Last sentence of first paragraph.."This restriction does not apply south of the French and Mattwa rivers......"

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Look at page 79 of your regs under Firearms in the section on Small game. Last sentence of first paragraph.."This restriction does not apply south of the French and Mattwa rivers......"

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Read post 54.

My previous post was to address a comment related to whether or not it is moral or ethical to shoot a coyote after the breeding season i.e. during the summer.
In the area where I am there is an open season on coyote. It is now turkey season. It may be worthwhile to look at the regs and get a better understanding. It does not state that you cannot have two firearms to hunt. It states which firearm you can have to hunt a particular type of game.
If one is to walk out of the field with a bullet hole in a turkey then one can expect that there is charge of illegal hunting waiting for you if you are caught.
On the other hand, if one is to use the legal firearm for each respective game type there is no wording i.e. the regs are mute on such a situation.
I am therefore placing the onus to prove that I have violated the spirit and/or intent of the regulations. In other words there are two types of game legal to hunt at the same time. Where is the wording that says you cannot hunt both? If there were to be wording you would expect it to be explicit. It is clear that one can have at the same time a legal allowance to shoot bear and moose or bear and deer at the same time since the seasons in some regions overlap. What if I decided that I wanted to have a muzzleloader for deer and a center fire rifle as well for bear?
I am not going to accept that I am guilty simply because there is a perception of guilt. Again, the onus is not on me to prove innocence, it is on the other side to prove guilt by intent.

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Originally Posted by DGearyFTE

What if I decided that I wanted to have a muzzleloader for deer and a center fire rifle as well for bear?
I am not going to accept that I am guilty simply because there is a perception of guilt. Again, the onus is not on me to prove innocence, it is on the other side to prove guilt by intent.

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Because at least one of the animals is big game( ok they are both big game ) you can only have one or the other loaded at a time, but yes you can have both with you. When hunting coyote because they are small game the restriction of only having one type of firearm loaded does not apply. Having two loaded firearms is a safety thing. By that I mean you would never want to walk around with both loaded.

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

Read post 54.

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Have you read the full section in the Fish and Wildlife Act that the text is from? There is more then quoted in the hunting regs.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Having two loaded firearms is a safety thing. By that I mean you would never want to walk around with both loaded.

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Good point! I have a true aversion to shooting myself. As an ex-military guy I am of the school that there is no such thing as an 'accident' with a firearm.

I find it easiest for myself to simply wait until I get to the spot where I want to hunt and load there. It takes the guess work out of the equation since there is really no way to be able to effectively hunt on the walk in with a shotgun and a rifle. Given that it is before daylight it is not an issue since I can't see to shoot and it is also illegal.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Have you read the full section in the Fish and Wildlife Act that the text is from? There is more then quoted in the hunting regs.

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I have read the full Act... there is nothing that states you cannot have two firearms, or even three, while hunting. It is my understanding that the hunter is expected to know and comply with the regulations and the Act as written. If there was an intent to prohibit the possession of two firearms while hunting it would be written. The only time I am aware of a restriction is when you are hunting with an apprentice and therefore you are limited to one firearm for both hunters. I have a problem with that one but it is what it is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DGearyFTE

I have read the full Act... there is nothing that states you cannot have two firearms, or even three, while hunting. It is my understanding that the hunter is expected to know and comply with the regulations and the Act as written. If there was an intent to prohibit the possession of two firearms while hunting it would be written. The only time I am aware of a restriction is when you are hunting with an apprentice and therefore you are limited to one firearm for both hunters. I have a problem with that one but it is what it is.

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He is saying that a person could not hunt coyote with a rifle during a shotgun only deer season. The Hunting Regs talks about a bow only season, but in the Act there is more to the paragraph.
I can not pull up and quote ( cut and paste )the act till I get home this weekend.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DGearyFTE

Good point! I have a true aversion to shooting myself. As an ex-military guy I am of the school that there is no such thing as an 'accident' with a firearm.

I find it easiest for myself to simply wait until I get to the spot where I want to hunt and load there. It takes the guess work out of the equation since there is really no way to be able to effectively hunt on the walk in with a shotgun and a rifle. Given that it is before daylight it is not an issue since I can't see to shoot and it is also illegal.

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Same here. I will unload and secure my rifle well travelling. If rabbits or other small game is open I will switch to #5 or #6 shot when I am moving around. If not I just carry the shotgun empty.
Been shot....don't care to be again.

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

From the regs.....I guess you would have to convince a JP you were only hunting coyotes, while turkey calling over turkey decoys....good luck with that !

79 - O.Reg 665/98

Hunt wild turkey with illegal firearm

Set Fine: $150.00

Total Payable: $180.00

A person who hunts wild turkey shall not use a firearm other than,

(a) a shotgun, including a muzzle-loading shotgun, not larger than number 10 gauge and not smaller than number 20 gauge loaded with shot sizes number 4, 5 or 6; or

(b) a cross-bow, long-

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That reg doesn't say you can't carry a rifle and a shotgun while turkey hunting.

Just to complicate things, what if I'm hunting turkeys with a drilling (20 guage side by side- 270 win) I'm not carrying 2 firearms but if I see a yote I can drop in the 270. If I have a valid small game license and valid Turkey tag as long as I don't shoot the turkey with the rifle round (which would be painfully obvious) wouldn't that satisfy any scenario? If I only had 270 rounds on me, then there would be a problem, but if I had #4 20 guage and 90gr 270?
I'm sure in the end it would be up to the CO's discretion, if there was any doubt I'm sure they would just charge and let the courts decide.

In many parts of North America they have been legally shooting turkeys with rifles for a hundred years. If you use the right loads it is the most logical way to do it without spoiling much meat. I was never a shotgun fan for game that was not flying so have never got my local Turkey license. I have however hunted them legally with a 45 many years ago in a state far away and did not feel handicapped in any manner.

You could legally go hunting for coyotes with both a 22-250 and a shotgun loaded with #4 shot.

The way people write on here it would make it seem that you cannot hunt anything when something bigger is open. Meaning that if there is a turkey season then you cannot use anything but a shotgun with 4,5,6 shot, period, even if you want to hunt something else. Why can you legally not have your turkey shotgun and your rifle with you, at 7pm switch to the rifle and hunt coyotes. What about groundhogs, can I not stop my turkey hunt and go clear out a pasture? Can I not have a shotgun with 4,5,6 shot on me hunting groundhogs without a turkey license?

It is all at the discretion of the CO, you know if you are doing something illegal.

That being said good luck ever seeing a CO in Ontario, we pay more and see less enforcement.

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Originally Posted by brent

No.......

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With respect, I disagree. I think you may want to qualify your response since it does not align with the regulations.

I was under the impression you can have to guns.. however if not using a shotgun for turkey you have to quickly dress in hunter orange. . and poor up an orange flag and a sign indicating your coyote hunting. Once the coyote had been shot, you can remove the flag and sign and orange and resume normal turkey hunting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by topher

I was under the impression you can have to guns.. however if not using a shotgun for turkey you have to quickly dress in hunter orange. . and poor up an orange flag and a sign indicating your coyote hunting. Once the coyote had been shot, you can remove the flag and sign and orange and resume normal turkey hunting.

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Ha ha ha ha, I better go make a "Hunting Coyote" flag

Hmmm... and I always thought it was a Bugs Bunny costume required to hunt coyote!

Problem with that is some dumb &$$ will think you're a big rabbit...

Bugs Bunny is stronger than Superman. Ever see him get hurt! Nope, Bugs is impervious to damage.
We might as well indulge in some humor given that this thread is going sideways with opinions that are oblivious to the facts.

On a serious note, people please just read the regulations and understand them. There is a big difference between asking for a clarification and outright misinformation

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DGearyFTE

Bugs Bunny is stronger than Superman. Ever see him get hurt! Nope, Bugs is impervious to damage.
We might as well indulge in some humor given that this thread is going sideways with opinions that are oblivious to the facts.

On a serious note, people please just read the regulations and understand them. There is a big difference between asking for a clarification and outright misinformation

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There is only one time your only allowed one gun. And that's waterfowl. That's the only time it is stayed one gun per hunter. Or hunter/apprentice. Bow hunting for deer also stays you can't bring a gun. However it doesn't say you can't being multiple bows.

I'm 2 for 2 this turkey season and I won't mention where the dogs are now

Dan

I can't believe this has rambled on for eight pages. For God's sake, someone please call 705.755.2000 and ask to speak to Enforcement. You'll have your answer in two minutes, and most importantly, it will be coming from the folks that will be potentially laying the charges in the field.
IMO, If I went turkey hunting with a friend who decided it was time to blast away at coyotes while I'm sitting for turkey, there would be a 15 minute blast of solid profanity from me, and it would be the last time I turkey hunted with that person. As a trapper, I see them as a valuable furbearer, and see no logic in taking the animal unless the pelt is prime. Predator/varmint argument aside, there's some major ethics in this picture too. The coyotes have recently whelped. No living animal deserves to be intentionally starved to death, I don't care if it's a rat. Nothing deserves that. I don't see an inhumane act like that as being acceptable collateral damage for saving a predated deer fawn. Learn how to put up fur well, then shoot them in mid-October, to the end of February, when the pelts are worth $55.

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Originally Posted by Fenelon

shoot them in mid-October, to the end of February, when the pelts are worth $55.

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Didn't someone here post a pic of his first cheque. . For $11?

Ye I have seen bugs bunny get hurt, killed actually. It was on Family Guy, Elmer filled him up good and then snapped his neck. It was hilarious. Also saw the coyote get roadrunner on different episode of same show, funny stuff

http://www.furharvesters.com/results...h/mar15can.pdf
March sale from North Bay. NAFA sale was even better, with a $55+ on eastern section 1s. I averaged $58.70 on the 22 I sent in. All were Nov - mid-January coyote. After this they start to rub, and prices will drop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sickofitall

Ye I have seen bugs bunny get hurt, killed actually. It was on Family Guy, Elmer filled him up good and then snapped his neck. It was hilarious. Also saw the coyote get roadrunner on different episode of same show, funny stuff

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Hmmm... was it in colour? If so it had to be true... LOL

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fenelon

I can't believe this has rambled on for eight pages. For God's sake, someone please call 705.755.2000 and ask to speak to Enforcement.

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Ah... come on Fenelon. If we were to do that it would take all the fun out of it.

On the serious side, good post. I agree with your opinion to a point. There are times that the luxury of waiting until next season is not available i.e. a farmer really doesn't care a lick about coyotes if the newborn family is parked in his area and they are dining on his liverstock.

Quote:

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Redd Foxx, where in the hand book does it have this info you posted. I'm sure it's there, I just can't find it.

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http://www.ontario.ca/laws

Go to this link and search for the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act. It has the act and all the regulations as well. Also any other Provincial law you'd like to read!!

So the year around open season in many WMU's is a misprint or do you say the same for ground hog and crow hunting? Some of the properties I hunt the landowners want Yotes shot on sight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fenelon

I can't believe this has rambled on for eight pages. For God's sake, someone please call 705.755.2000 and ask to speak to Enforcement. You'll have your answer in two minutes, and most importantly, it will be coming from the folks that will be potentially laying the charges in the field.
IMO, If I went turkey hunting with a friend who decided it was time to blast away at coyotes while I'm sitting for turkey, there would be a 15 minute blast of solid profanity from me, and it would be the last time I turkey hunted with that person. As a trapper, I see them as a valuable furbearer, and see no logic in taking the animal unless the pelt is prime. Predator/varmint argument aside, there's some major ethics in this picture too. The coyotes have recently whelped. No living animal deserves to be intentionally starved to death, I don't care if it's a rat. Nothing deserves that. I don't see an inhumane act like that as being acceptable collateral damage for saving a predated deer fawn. Learn how to put up fur well, then shoot them in mid-October, to the end of February, when the pelts are worth $55.

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I believe you are required by law, to kill every coyote you see.:dog:

My info (lawyer-Crown Law Office-also my friend) is that it's legal to have both a rifle and a shotgun when hunting Coyotes,but,not legal when hunting Turkey unless the rifle is encased because rifles may NOT be used to hunt Wild Turkey. As for the question of ethics of shooting Coyotes as varmints,IMHO,everyone has a right to an opinion,but,should never be condemned for them. Farmers on whose land I have permission to hunt want their numbers controlled/reduced because of the damage they cause. As a dedicated varmint/predator hunter my entire life,I'm only too happy to oblige. Diffrent strokes for different folks,especially when it's absolutely legal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

So the year around open season in many WMU's is a misprint or do you say the same for ground hog and crow hunting? Some of the properties I hunt the landowners want Yotes shot on sight.

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It all boils down to your own set of personal ethics - your own personal views on compassion, respect and treatment of another living creature, etc. You make your own bed, so it's up to you individually at the end of the day to do an assessment, on how you feel and treat animals. I remember when I used to do a lot of nuisance beaver removal, making pretty good money during the peak spring and fall months. The animals were definitely causing problems, plugging culverts, flooding roads, washing-out shoulders, etc. I broke my own rules and trapped a well-established beaver colony in early June, knowing that the adult female would have recently whelped. The next day, I could hear her pups crying in the house as I removed her from a 330 conibear. Two days later they were still crying/whimpering, so I spent 45 minutes with a pick and axe, digging-out the house so I could euthanize the pups. $65 (fee for removing the beaver) doesn't cover how I felt after that. Maybe it's an age thing, I don't know, but my attitudes towards how I see wildlife has changed over the years. As a kid, I used to shoot pile of groundhogs, as that was the acceptednorm for a rural kid, and the attitude was that a dead varmint was a positive thing. It used to be you'd look out into a 100 acre hay field, and you'd see 10 hogs. Yes. there were legitimate beefs back then with damage to haying equipment, etc. Been around cattle and horses my entire life, and have yet to see a single animal break a leg from a hog burrow. Then coyotes arrived on the landscape in the late 70's/early 80's. Goodbye ground hogs. It's now almost a treat now to see a hog in the area I live. I personally see no sense in shooting what's left now, as they're serving a better cause ecologically by being in that hayfield. I'll leave them to feed the raptors and fox pups (that will bring me $50 in the fall), eat the perennial weeds, and aerate the soil.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fenelon

It all boils down to your own set of personal ethics - your own personal views on compassion, respect and treatment of another living creature, etc. You make your own bed, so it's up to you individually at the end of the day to do an assessment, on how you feel and treat animals. I remember when I used to do a lot of nuisance beaver removal, making pretty good money during the peak spring and fall months. The animals were definitely causing problems, plugging culverts, flooding roads, washing-out shoulders, etc. I broke my own rules and trapped a well-established beaver colony in early June, knowing that the adult female would have recently whelped. The next day, I could hear her pups crying in the house as I removed her from a 330 conibear. Two days later they were still crying/whimpering, so I spent 45 minutes with a pick and axe, digging-out the house so I could euthanize the pups. $65 (fee for removing the beaver) doesn't cover how I felt after that. Maybe it's an age thing, I don't know, but my attitudes towards how I see wildlife has changed over the years. As a kid, I used to shoot pile of groundhogs, as that was the acceptednorm for a rural kid, and the attitude was that a dead varmint was a positive thing. It used to be you'd look out into a 100 acre hay field, and you'd see 10 hogs. Yes. there were legitimate beefs back then with damage to haying equipment, etc. Been around cattle and horses my entire life, and have yet to see a single animal break a leg from a hog burrow. Then coyotes arrived on the landscape in the late 70's/early 80's. Goodbye ground hogs. It's now almost a treat now to see a hog in the area I live. I personally see no sense in shooting what's left now, as they're serving a better cause ecologically by being in that hayfield. I'll leave them to feed the raptors and fox pups (that will bring me $50 in the fall), eat the perennial weeds, and aerate the soil.

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Very well said Fenelon, I am in total agreement with you. I have been very clear about the ethics that should be inherent with the things that we do....ethics are different than opinions. I do not fault others for a different view but find fault in their understanding in the matter as a whole especially with the rationalization used.

The whole argument about being a self appointed saviour for deer grows very thin with their responses. You want to shoot coyotes????? Have it but think about it during the times Fenelon describes.

At a field trial this weekend I mentioned to a close friend of many years who is a leading outfitter for wolf hunting in the north about the numerous responses in this thread. He commented about the total lack of understanding with several of the issues involved. When I mentioned to him that I have suggested that if you shoot a coyote now then be prepared to find the den and finish the job. His answer was very swift.....these guys couldn't find a den. His point was very clear.

I've mentioned before that most if not all the hardest running coyote hunters in this province see it this way also notwithstanding some exceptions.

Fenelon is spot on....it just comes down to one's personal set of ethics and to that end it is obvious that there is a significant difference.

Good post Fenelon!!...

Your tagging an large number of fellas including Trappers and Guides on here with that comment. Your friend I'm guessing is the only expert in the country.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

these guys couldn't find a den. His point was very clear.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

Your tagging an large number of fellas including Trappers and Guides on here with that comment. Your friend I'm guessing is the only expert in the country.

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Maybe if you are around and grow a little older and mature , your outlook perhaps may change.

Myself and many others , whole heartedly agree with Fenelons post and Krakadawns response.

Looking through this thread I would say many don't agree just as well. Not sure how old you think I am but obvisously much more mature then you are.

So I am guessing you think most of the Trappers on here don't know their stuff??? I think the trappers and some of the hunters on here are very knowledgeable. I'm guessing you disagree.

By the way I have been around enough probably more then you will ever know.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaycee

Maybe if you are around and grow a little older and mature , your outlook perhaps may change.

Myself and many others , whole heartedly agree with Fenelons post and Krakadawns response.

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Maybe next time you should read my comment I wasn't insulting anyone but the other fella was.

Just like you decided to suddenly insult me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaycee

Maybe if you are around and grow a little older and mature , your outlook perhaps may change.

Myself and many others , whole heartedly agree with Fenelons post and Krakadawns response.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

Your tagging an large number of fellas including Trappers and Guides on here with that comment. Your friend I'm guessing is the only expert in the country.

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GW, not tagging either of those two groups at all. I imagine that most of them understand this issue quite well. My friend is not the 'only expert' as you say but one who understands the world he walks in.

Fenelon, Jaycee and I have said similar things....it's more about how you do things that counts. How often do we see the question...'Is a 22 good enough for....." I don't think anyone has said to not deal with nuisance coyotes or protect one's livestock in those situations but to shoot several coyotes now and leave them there to waste is not acceptable to us and to those who brag about it, I find fault in those statements.

If you have ever read any past threads on the questions of what to do with a Pelt I have always said to the OP's to skin it and tack it up in your garage, not once have I ever said to do something wrong. Jaycee decided that he would like to falsely accuse me of something very rudely guessing because he is an old disgruntled person and think he is 100% perfect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

GW, not tagging either of those two groups at all. I imagine that most of them understand this issue quite well. My friend is not the 'only expert' as you say but one who understands the world he walks in.

Fenelon, Jaycee and I have said similar things....it's more about how you do things that counts. How often do we see the question...'Is a 22 good enough for....." I don't think anyone has said to not deal with nuisance coyotes or protect one's livestock in those situations but to shoot several coyotes now and leave them there to waste is not acceptable to us and to those who brag about it, I find fault in those statements.

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It was implied by Krakadawn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

Fenelon, Jaycee and I have said similar things....it's more about how you do things that counts. How often do we see the question...'Is a 22 good enough for....." I don't think anyone has said to not deal with nuisance coyotes or protect one's livestock in those situations but to shoot several coyotes now and leave them there to waste is not acceptable to us and to those who brag about it, I find fault in those statements.

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GW, I have implied nothing of the sort, I understand you have supported the processing of pelts which means one must have an understanding of when there is value to them.

I also did not imply you supported the SSS approach, that was said by others. You can easily reread the thread to see who that was. Your issue seems to be more so with someone else....perhaps direct responses to him.

I have said in the past that if shooting a Yote why not pelt it (assuming it has no mange) instead of wasting it. However in the case of protecting livestock I also see nothing wrong with shooting Yotes. Myself I do not specifically target them, however that said the land owners I know would like me to shoot them if I see them. These are dairy farmers and they have a concern with their livestock.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

GW, I have implied nothing of the sort, I understand you have supported the processing of pelts which means one must have an understanding of when there is value to them.

I also did not imply you supported the SSS approach, that was said by others. You can easily reread the thread to see who that was. Your issue seems to be more so with someone else....perhaps direct responses to him.

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I have always had an aversion to shooting a coyote during the spring due to the fact that it may result in orphaned pups but two of the farms that I hunt I have been asked by the landowner to specifically take any coyotes that we are able to. Both have experienced very bold coyotes coming right up to the barn yard during the night and have lost livestock. The beef farmer has donkeys in with his cattle and while they do a good job of keeping canine predators at bay he has lost a calf this spring. On those farms we will honor the landowner's request and take a coyote if able. My son did so this past Saturday while we were turkey hunting, a young female, no teats so no starving pups. Any other land we hunt the yotes get a pass.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

I have said in the past that if shooting a Yote why not pelt it (assuming it has no mange) instead of wasting it. However in the case of protecting livestock I also see nothing wrong with shooting Yotes. Myself I do not specifically target them, however that said the land owners I know would like me to shoot them if I see them. These are dairy farmers and they have a concern with their livestock.

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GW, I absolutely understand that, I live in a rural farming area. My comments go back to the original essence of this thread which is shooting coyotes when turkey hunting.
I think the other underpinning notion here is about the 'ethics' that we should develop as hunters.
Guides are not immune to this either. I'm sure you read about an individual who guides for turkey/deer/ducks just south of Peterborough. He was found guilty of numerous charges last fall but still continues to advertise.

It's all about how we do.....what we do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by M_P

I have always had an aversion to shooting a coyote during the spring due to the fact that it may result in orphaned pups but two of the farms that I hunt I have been asked by the landowner to specifically take any coyotes that we are able to. Both have experienced very bold coyotes coming right up to the barn yard during the night and have lost livestock. The beef farmer has donkeys in with his cattle and while they do a good job of keeping canine predators at bay he has lost a calf this spring. On those farms we will honor the landowner's request and take a coyote if able. My son did so this past Saturday while we were turkey hunting, a young female, no teats so no starving pups. Any other land we hunt the yotes get a pass.

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This is my situation exactly ! If the landowner says you can hunt here, as long as you take any coyotes you see, then I guess you honour his wishes, or look for another hunting area....

I didn't mean to insult anyone, if you think that my comment was meant as an insult towards you, "I apologize".
What I said was that as people age and mature , their attitude towards life and what goes with it, changes a lot.

I have been hunting coyotes for close to 40 years now , I am 73 and have shot more coyotes during this time than most have or will ever see, [have many albums of pictures as proof] our hides were / are not wasted , they were prepared [ lots of work] and sent to North Bay Fur Auctions except for the ones that had mange.
Our group always quit hunting coyotes after the breeding season as we did not want to starve to death the young pups by killing the nursing females , and also because the hides by that time were poor. we had one guy that wanted to carry on and hunt them much later than we did , he left our group and started his own , that really fell through on him as his own group felt the same as we did, he finally quit hunting coyotes and sold his dogs.

Over the years we have met many farmers /land owners that did not want coyotes killed, these are Orchardists that prefer to have coyotes around to kill mice that girdle young trees , and to keep away deer that also damage the fruit trees by eating the young buds. Tree Farmers [ Christmas Tree] are also happy to have coyotes around as mice also kill their young trees by girdling them , you can also add Nurseries to this group. There is one farmer that has 6 farms , grows soft crops and berries he also says coyotes are his pest controllers, another farmer who has a few ponds that are used for crop irrigation prefers to have coyotes around to keep the geese away as the goose crap plugs up his irrigation pumps , the coyotes also get rid of some muskrats that cause shoreline damage around his ponds. Another guy has ponds that he raises trout in , he claims that the coyotes keep away the Great Blue Herons that kill his fish, keep the geese away and control the muskrat population which cause problems with water levels in his ponds.

So you can see that not everyone wants coyotes killed off , some don't even mind that they kill a few deer as the deer cause more damage for them than the coyotes do.
To these farmers they do serve a purpose and save them $ dollars $ in crop damage and to look at them as something that kills some deer and takes away from "your sport " is just being one sided .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaycee

I didn't mean to insult anyone, if you think that my comment was meant as an insult towards you, "I apologize".
What I said was that as people age and mature , their attitude towards life and what goes with it, changes a lot.

I have been hunting coyotes for close to 40 years now , I am 73 and have shot more coyotes during this time than most have or will ever see, [have many albums of pictures as proof] our hides were / are not wasted , they were prepared [ lots of work] and sent to North Bay Fur Auctions except for the ones that had mange.
Our group always quit hunting coyotes after the breeding season as we did not want to starve to death the young pups by killing the nursing females , and also because the hides by that time were poor. we had one guy that wanted to carry on and hunt them much later than we did , he left our group and started his own , that really fell through on him as his own group felt the same as we did, he finally quit hunting coyotes and sold his dogs.

Over the years we have met many farmers /land owners that did not want coyotes killed, these are Orchardists that prefer to have coyotes around to kill mice that girdle young trees , and to keep away deer that also damage the fruit trees by eating the young buds. Tree Farmers [ Christmas Tree] are also happy to have coyotes around as mice also kill their young trees by girdling them , you can also add Nurseries to this group. There is one farmer that has 6 farms , grows soft crops and berries he also says coyotes are his pest controllers, another farmer who has a few ponds that are used for crop irrigation prefers to have coyotes around to keep the geese away as the goose crap plugs up his irrigation pumps , the coyotes also get rid of some muskrats that cause shoreline damage around his ponds. Another guy has ponds that he raises trout in , he claims that the coyotes keep away the Great Blue Herons that kill his fish, keep the geese away and control the muskrat population which cause problems with water levels in his ponds.

So you can see that not everyone wants coyotes killed off , some don't even mind that they kill a few deer as the deer cause more damage for them than the coyotes do.
To these farmers they do serve a purpose and save them $ dollars $ in crop damage and to look at them as something that kills some deer and takes away from "your sport " is just being one sided .

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jaycee
You have made some excellent points. As such I think it has turned a page. Let me explain. In your situation you have explained your rationale to cease hunting after mating season and have made some good points about when it may be desirable to have a healthy coyote population in an area (despite the impact on deer).
There have also been posts (I made several) that point to farmers that have livestock where predation is a real concern to them. In these areas where there is a negative impact to livestock there is likely a general consensus from the farming community that any coyote at any time of the year is a bad thing.
Then there is a third scenario where the areas is remote from farms where there is really no impact from the coyote population. It is my observation that this last one is where the controversy is being generated and not properly separated from the rest.

IMO the discussion of whether or not taking a coyote after the mating season (i.e. during turkey season) is less a question of ethics and more a question of the scenario.
I think most hunters, being the conservation minded types we are, would agree that given no other influences it is the logical and ethical choice to leave the coyotes until the Fall season. Like all groups there is the 98% majority and the 2% fringe that never get it. I think we all realize the 2% are responsible for 98% of the illegal and/or questionable acts. We also realize it is on all of us to speak up when they are going in the wrong direction. Allowing animals to suffer is not what hunting is about irrespective of the hunting scenario. I think it is a more clear scenario if it is called what it is, taking coyote thru the late spring and summer months is 'pest control' and IMO should be engaged only when there is a need. At this point the discussion comes to, yup, it is sad that there is potential for pups to starve but they are not otherwise being fed on livestock.

As a trapper, I get to hear from the farmers when livestock predation becomes an issue. Usually 90% of the time the farmer has dumped deadstock down in the back forty swamp. You can't blame the farmer, as the new deadstock laws make it financially prohibitive to pay to have the dead carcasses dragged off. Feed them well on beef and mutton, and it's pretty easy to see how a family group of coyotes that are fed deadstock will logically start taking the live stuff too. My experience has been that these individual family groups and/or "educated" breeding adults are the coyotes that are causing all of the problems. These are the ones that should be specifically targetted for removal, and the farmer needs to learn that the deadstock buffet needs to be halted.
It's tough to deal with these animals if you are a trapper who gets the call, and you live in an area that prohibits the use of suspended land snares. This is about the only effective way to remove animals during the summer months (from my experience) , when food supply is diverse and abundant. Trying to get a summer coyote to stick it's foot into a dirthole set in the summertime is not an easy thing (at least not from my experience). The food drive/curiosity combo simply is not there. Snaring is easy.
The Min of Ag has recently done a passive cable restraint trial in eastern Ontario, and I for one am very eagar to see this system get adopted. It would put an effective tool into the hands of a trapper who is getting these predation calls. The cable restraint works just like a standard neck snare, but the snare loop does not have a one-way snare lock that chokes down the animal. The animal is caught, and held by the neck, until the trapper arrives to dispatch the animal. It can be very selective, if set properly by someone who's been trained to use the equipment. You can add break-away ferrules and s-hooks to the cables, to release any non-target catch (eg. deer, horses, cattle, etc). Non-targets like dogs and fox can be safely released, unharmed. I'd like to see a special permit be offered for trappers - eg. attend a special training worshop to be trained on the equipment, then be certified to allow use of the equipment to deal with problem coyotes. If anyone in interested in more info, just Google passive cable restraint, and you'll be able to pull up entire worlshop manuals from the US, where this equipment is commonly used. Looks like i got off topic again..........damn!

So its the farmers fault the coyotes sneak into the paddock and kill calves? Glad you cleared that up. How does that play when you are asking permission to trap their land?

Coyotes are opportunistic feeders. What could possibly be easier or better nutrition than penned livestock.

BTW - Passive restraint system = easy held meal for mr yote!

Don't get me wrong, I support trapping. I do find it difficult to understand how you claim moral sadness for orphaned pups but allow an adult coyote or other animal languish in your leg traps for any period of time....

How many incidentals are killed in your traps? How many animals don't die right away?

You have a legal right to trap as hunters have a legal right to shoot coyotes.

I also find it surprising when I hear of local farmers who get billed by trappers $75 a trapped beaver and the trapper doesn't even finish the job but does somehow manage to collect his fee....

Lets come off of our collective high horse.

We have reasons for shooting the coyotes or not shooting them. Its a very polarized topic and I understand your side but forgive me if I side with farmers each and every time. They are the ones after all that put food on my table.

Sorry Jack, no horses for this fellow, unless they're pulling logs out of the bush! Yes, deadstock put into the bush is the number one contributing factor on any of the nusiance predation calls I've had, so to answer your question, if it's the farmer whose running the loader, made the decision to dump on his land, then yes, the farmer is the one who's directly contributing to his own problem. Sting as it may, it's the honest truth. Opportunism is indeed indirectly the main reason that the calf gets grabbed in the barn paddock. The coyote isn't stupid, and being the opportunist that he is, will gladly partake of the 1000lb prolapsed cow that you dumped into the swamp. So will his wife, who will now implant and have a really big litter of pups, due to her excellent condition factor. All those pups will survive as the well fed female keeps lactating and the pups get to eat all that regurgitated deadstock. You now have 10 educated livestock-raised coyotes on your property instead of two (with no deadstock draw, there will be no artificially elevated population) and you're the one who dropped the welcome mat by leaving deadstock in the bush for them to eat. Bury them deep if you can, but this won't work for half the year, when the ground's frozen. As mentioned above, the farmer is stuck in a hard place. Not too long ago you could actually make money off that carcass when the rendering truck came and picked the dead animal up. Those days are gone now. I'm not sure what the cost is now for removal, but it's the reason why everything gets dumped back in the bush. Most farmers I speak to regarding this are not as reactive as you, and they realize that they're merely adding fuel to the fire by continuing to feed the coyotes on their property.
re: cable restraints - they do not kill the animal. They restrain it, until you show up for the dispatch.
re: footholds - since 2007, canada has been a member of the AIHTS (Agreement on International Humane Trapping Standards). Any piece of equipment that is now used must have passed certification testing, and it must meet strict thresholds for kill time (if it's a kill-style trap), or it must ensure welfare of restrained animals if it is a live-holding trap. You should try putting one of the certified traps on your hand sometime (we do this when we teach the trapping course), to mimic what a restrained animal is feeling while held in the equipment. You might be surprised. Gone are the days of toothed jaws, steel-on-steel jaws, chewed feets, etc. As far as languishing in the trap, it's law that you inspect all your live-holding sets every 24 hrs. Most trappers will start checking at dawn, to minimize holding time. Some will argue till the cows come home, that any restraint is stressful and hard on the animal. The answer is yes, but you need to put it in context. What are your feelings about that adult female coyote being "humanely" held by a certified trap for 6 hours in the dark, knowing that this is the animal that's killed nine of your lambs during the past week?
Re: Incidental catch - yes. Any trapper that says they catch no incidentals is a lier. It happens, but you do everything in your power to ensure that this is minimized, by selecting the most appropriate set, using the right trap, and setting and luring it for the intended target animal. All my kill sets are elevated on what are called running poles, to keep my equipment out of dog range. As far as incidentals, I usually catch 3 or 4 feral cats in one trapping season, while running about 30 220's over a 40 night season. I may catch one flying squirrel over the same period. Everything else is a target furbearer.
Re: time to die in the trap - everything you use now, by law, must be a certified trap that has been tested and has passed the certification standards. In order to have passed the certification process, the traps must render the animal unconscious in the specified time that is considered humane dispatch for that species. All my equipment is certified and I ensure it is well maintained (dyed/waxed,striking bars maintained, triggers repaired, springs unloaded during storage).

Regarding the trapper who stiffed the farmer - the farmer needs to go down into his swamp, and cut himself a nice piece of black ash. Something about three feet long, and as big around as your wrist seems to work well. He then needs to go and see this trapper, and have what is best known my way as "a discussion" about the matter. Sorry your friends got shanked. If it was me trapping that property, my terms are always a guarentee that I will rid the problem, or I don't get paid. If I can't catch the beaver, then it's no charge. I then ask the property owner what they want done. Do they want them all removed, or just reduced to a manageable number. If they want a complete removal, then I remain on the site until I've trapped every one of them. Call the MNR and give them the Pecker Trapper's name. They'll pull his name from the district nusiance call list. Let him shoot himself in the foot, and get no more future calls for his services.

Dave

]we have a big problem with farmers dumping dead stock out back, I have seen everything from 1000 turkeys to piles of 30 hogs 100s of piglets and horses . dairy cows you name it ,and it does educate the coyotes .as far as incidental catches I get a old cat most times the first night I set a new location with any trap baited for coon just because there are way to many dam cats roaming the country side ,all are coon traps are set to high to catch dogs or other pets ,also I never leave any animal to suffer in any trap I set .A lot of folks that comment on traps and trappers really have no idea what is going on ,,,so I will leave it at that ,,,,Dutch

Quote:

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if it's the farmer whose running the loader, made the decision to dump on his land, then yes, the farmer is the one who's directly contributing to his own problem.

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That is exactly what happened around here and why I was able to shot 14 to 16 coyotes every winter for 4 years, it was so bad that a few other farmers complained to the ones doing it, putting out dead chickens , pigs and calves out along their bush lines.
This has since stopped and consequently there are fewer coyotes in the area. And as Fenelon stated , coyotes are opportunists , they will take down a calf or sheep while dinning at the local chicken or beef supply depot, [ Kentucky Fried Chicken or Burger King ] to them.
At one point a lady two concessions from us called me about the coyote problem as the coyotes were coming into her sheep enclosure and go on a killing spree and also chase her cats onto the porch of the house and eat the cat food.
I did help her out when she asked , but she was not really that appreciative, it was just that she lost too many ewes and lambs.
She had been raising sheep for years but had no real big problems till a couple of neighboring farmers started dumping carcass's out along their bush lines drawing coyotes from who knows where into our area.
It also happened in another area we hunted, two kitty corner concessions where we shot 65 coyotes one winter without much traveling.

This thread has produced a lot of information that hopefully will aid others in a better understanding of coyotes and farming practises. Those of us who have hunted them for many years are all to aware of what Fenelon has shared in regard to deadstock and the dilemma that farmers face. Dumping deadstock is one of the foremost reasons of increased predation. I have had to school several sheep farmers who continued to dump at the back of the property. They thought the family group of coyotes continued to target them.....little wonder when you feed them so well.

I'm like Jaycee, probably caught, shot and stretched more coyote hides than others can imagine. Our group as well does not shoot spring coyotes and we would uninvited members who choose to continue.

Thanks Fenelon for taking the amount of time to share.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fenelon

re: cable restraints - they do not kill the animal. They restrain it, until you show up for the dispatch.
re: footholds - since 2007, canada has been a member of the AIHTS (Agreement on International Humane Trapping Standards). Any piece of equipment that is now used must have passed certification testing, and it must meet strict thresholds for kill time (if it's a kill-style trap), or it must ensure welfare of restrained animals if it is a live-holding trap. You should try putting one of the certified traps on your hand sometime (we do this when we teach the trapping course), to mimic what a restrained animal is feeling while held in the equipment. You might be surprised. Gone are the days of toothed jaws, steel-on-steel jaws, chewed feets, etc. As far as languishing in the trap, it's law that you inspect all your live-holding sets every 24 hrs. Most trappers will start checking at dawn, to minimize holding time. Some will argue till the cows come home, that any restraint is stressful and hard on the animal. The answer is yes, but you need to put it in context. What are your feelings about that adult female coyote being "humanely" held by a certified trap for 6 hours in the dark, knowing that this is the animal that's killed nine of your lambs during the past week?
Re: Incidental catch - yes. Any trapper that says they catch no incidentals is a lier. It happens, but you do everything in your power to ensure that this is minimized, by selecting the most appropriate set, using the right trap, and setting and luring it for the intended target animal. All my kill sets are elevated on what are called running poles, to keep my equipment out of dog range. As far as incidentals, I usually catch 3 or 4 feral cats in one trapping season, while running about 30 220's over a 40 night season. I may catch one flying squirrel over the same period. Everything else is a target furbearer.
Re: time to die in the trap - everything you use now, by law, must be a certified trap that has been tested and has passed the certification standards. In order to have passed the certification process, the traps must render the animal unconscious in the specified time that is considered humane dispatch for that species. All my equipment is certified and I ensure it is well maintained (dyed/waxed,striking bars maintained, triggers repaired, springs unloaded during storage).

Regarding the trapper who stiffed the farmer - the farmer needs to go down into his swamp, and cut himself a nice piece of black ash. Something about three feet long, and as big around as your wrist seems to work well. He then needs to go and see this trapper, and have what is best known my way as "a discussion" about the matter. Sorry your friends got shanked. If it was me trapping that property, my terms are always a guarentee that I will rid the problem, or I don't get paid. If I can't catch the beaver, then it's no charge. I then ask the property owner what they want done. Do they want them all removed, or just reduced to a manageable number. If they want a complete removal, then I remain on the site until I've trapped every one of them. Call the MNR and give them the Pecker Trapper's name. They'll pull his name from the district nusiance call list. Let him shoot himself in the foot, and get no more future calls for his services.

Dave

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Ok Dave

Your answers seem like they are aimed at anti's to try and sell them on the humane side of trapping. I have already told you I have no problem with trapping. I understand that process and have been exposed to it my entire life.

BUT

Save the Horse#$*! for someone who has never seen what can happen. An animal will sometimes rip themselves apart trying to get out of a trap and certainly if you claim that every kill traps does exactly that instantly every time then again I call BS. Things happen. You are killing an animal that really doesn't want to be killed.

Likewise if you claim every trapper gets to their traps within that 24 hour period every time again I call BS. Yes that's the law but there are a lot of part time trappers out there and it isn't always their top priority and again things can happen that prevent them from tending their traps.


As for this comment;

"Any piece of equipment that is now used must have passed certification testing, and it must meet strict thresholds for kill time (if it's a kill-style trap), or it must ensure welfare of restrained animals if it is a live-holding trap. You should try putting one of the certified traps on your hand sometime"

Yeah done that. I wasn't trying to get out of it either and I have opposable thumbs so I could.

Great as long as everything goes as it should. Nothing ever goes wrong does it.

No animal ever suffers in any of your traps for too long just for a while as prescribed by accepted standards.

This is nonsense and hypocritical.

You cause more pain and suffering to animals then the guys that shoot a coyote while turkey hunting yet you climb up on your pulpit and say they are morally wrong and are unethical hunters.

That is my problem with your statement.

Like I said I support trappers and their right to take part in that activity. Likewise I would expect trappers to support legal hunting activities.


As far as the fellow with the beaver problem, his issue was resolved and not by a trapper.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fenelon

Regarding the trapper who stiffed the farmer - the farmer needs to go down into his swamp, and cut himself a nice piece of black ash. Something about three feet long, and as big around as your wrist seems to work well. He then needs to go and see this trapper, and have what is best known my way as "a discussion" about the matter. Sorry your friends got shanked. If it was me trapping that property, my terms are always a guarentee that I will rid the problem, or I don't get paid. If I can't catch the beaver, then it's no charge. I then ask the property owner what they want done. Do they want them all removed, or just reduced to a manageable number. If they want a complete removal, then I remain on the site until I've trapped every one of them. Call the MNR and give them the Pecker Trapper's name. They'll pull his name from the district nusiance call list. Let him shoot himself in the foot, and get no more future calls for his services.

Dave

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So,if the fella that hired you to get rid of the beavers and shoot the Coyotes at the same time or forget the whole thing,I'll bet you would walk away from that​ paycheck,wouldn't you?

Quote:

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You are killing an animal that really doesn't want to be killed

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Oh oh!! I guess I missed something throughout my hunting career. Where are you finding all these animals that want to be killed? I haven't seen any in my 60 years on earth!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redd foxx

Oh oh!! I guess I missed something throughout my hunting career. Where are you finding all these animals that want to be killed? I haven't seen any in my 60 years on earth!!

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Point being it is in a wild animal's nature to struggle for it's life against it's restraints until it cannot do so any longer. Glad I gave you a chuckle.

Out of context it seems like such a ridiculous statement.

On many of the farms I hunt on the first thing the farmer asks you is "did you shoot anything" next question is "did you see anything" and trust me they better match. Many farmers have the if its brown it goes down mentality
in the case of deer and turkey if I choose to pass I simply reply nothing in range.
#1 on most of the farms I hunt on is coyotes and once you bring a few of them in the questions seem to fade out

this year turkey hunting I've shot 2 coyotes one with a shotgun and the 2nd with my bow with a decap head right in the neck and it was a total gore show

Dan

So what did you do with them?

Jack:
You are dead right with many of your statements. There is major potential for animal welfare to suffer if the individual is not diligent in ensuring that their trapping activities are humane. There are close to 75,000 licenced trappers in the province. The certification course that is required by the province is a mere introductory 40 hr. session. You're taught the basics. Farmers aren't even required to take the course if they trap on the own land. Just like hunting, you're going to get both good and bad "participants". Unfortunately, you're going to get a portion of these groups who break the law, or simply do not rate the welfare of the animal as a high priority. There are regulations in place to ensure that things are done properly, but you're always going to get some idiot who disregards them.
Regarding the live-holding sets, if I came across evidence of someone not checking their sets, their would be an immediate call to enforcement, to get the person charged. This industry is under the public's hand lens. Any bad exposure can be devastating.
Regarding an animal ripping itself to shreds, I can honestly say I've never had this happen in all my years of trapping, but I am extremely attentive to ensuring that every one of my sets is humane, and that I'm using the correct equipment, it's been maintained properly, and I've set it in a manner that I have directional control of the animal's approach for a humane dispatch. I agree with what you've said - you do this poorly, and things can go badly for that captured animal. Regarding my support of other legally hunter's actions, I do not support anything that doesn't jive with my own personal set of ethics/values. I think everyone has their own set. It's a personal thing that you build throughout your life. Everyone has them, based on past personal experiences, and they may not be right or wrong for everyone. Now you've got me thinking, and here's a few for me. I don't agree with: shooting hen turkeys in the fall, shooting maternal WTD does that are accompanied by fawns, harvesting any of our sea duck species that are now globally threatened, any form of trophy hunting where the meat of the animal is not completely utilized, etc., etc. Actually, this could develop into an interesting tangent for this thread - what if everyone listed their top 5?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

So,if the fella that hired you to get rid of the beavers and shoot the Coyotes at the same time or forget the whole thing,I'll bet you would walk away from that​ paycheck,wouldn't you?

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If the landowner had a beaver problem, and a legitimate livestock predation problem, then yes, I would offer to do both. If he was dumping deadstock, I'd get a conversation going about this too, so he understood that this was probably causing him all the problems. If he merely wanted me to pop any summer coyotes I saw on his property, then my reply would be no. The beaver removal would have to occur prior to the last week in April, or after August, so I'm not leaving a bunch of crying pups in the house. If they wanted them trapped during this period, I'd pass and let another trapper do the job.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fenelon

If the landowner had a beaver problem, and a legitimate livestock predation problem, then yes, I would offer to do both. If he was dumping deadstock, I'd get a conversation going about this too, so he understood that this was probably causing him all the problems. If he merely wanted me to pop any summer coyotes I saw on his property, then my reply would be no. The beaver removal would have to occur prior to the last week in April, or after August, so I'm not leaving a bunch of crying pups in the house. If they wanted them trapped during this period, I'd pass and let another trapper do the job.

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So,if I understand correctly,it's your personal choice to allow another trapper to do what you find distasteful and you're OK with that?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

So,if I understand correctly,it's your personal choice to allow another trapper to do what you find distasteful and you're OK with that?

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He writes in a way that sounds like a research paper, and a legal brief.
I guess he also has too many farms to hunt/trap on. Because after he till the farmer to get another person to help them with the problem I am sure the farmer is not going to kick that other guy off so fen can trap/hunt there.

Fenelon around here most farmers dump there dead livestock because as you said it now costs. I cannot remember the actual cost but 200 or 300 rings a bell for the first and 50 bucks I think for each additional. Which is why they rarly bother unless something catastrophic happens and they lose a large number. Some of the farmers have back hoes so the bury their but those that don't just take out to the other edge of the field. Many do not want the additional costs. That said they allow hunters to use their land with the understanding that all yotes will be shot which in turn is cheaper for the farmer. Your not going to convince any farmer around here especially since we have no shortage of yotes.

However I do understand your position, but I think you also have to understand the farmers position as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fenelon

If the landowner had a beaver problem, and a legitimate livestock predation problem, then yes, I would offer to do both. If he was dumping deadstock, I'd get a conversation going about this too, so he understood that this was probably causing him all the problems. If he merely wanted me to pop any summer coyotes I saw on his property, then my reply would be no. The beaver removal would have to occur prior to the last week in April, or after August, so I'm not leaving a bunch of crying pups in the house. If they wanted them trapped during this period, I'd pass and let another trapper do the job.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

So,if I understand correctly,it's your personal choice to allow another trapper to do what you find distasteful and you're OK with that?

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Yes, exactly- they can find someone else to do the job. It's totally legal for a licenced trapper to do the removal, but it comes down to personal ethics as to whether or not you're OK with what you're doing. I don't need the money that badly. They can call back to MNR and get another name off the list, and it's up to that individual to make the judgement call. Perhaps the next trapper really wants the money, and doesn't morally have a problem with leaving the young to die in the house. I get calls too from landowners who've had refusals from other trappers eg. people losing their pet cats to fisher and they want the fisher live-trapped instead of lethal trapped, people wanting the cats trapped out of their barn, etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fenelon

Jack:
You are dead right with many of your statements. There is major potential for animal welfare to suffer if the individual is not diligent in ensuring that their trapping activities are humane. There are close to 75,000 licenced trappers in the province. The certification course that is required by the province is a mere introductory 40 hr. session. You're taught the basics. Farmers aren't even required to take the course if they trap on the own land. Just like hunting, you're going to get both good and bad "participants". Unfortunately, you're going to get a portion of these groups who break the law, or simply do not rate the welfare of the animal as a high priority. There are regulations in place to ensure that things are done properly, but you're always going to get some idiot who disregards them.
Regarding the live-holding sets, if I came across evidence of someone not checking their sets, their would be an immediate call to enforcement, to get the person charged. This industry is under the public's hand lens. Any bad exposure can be devastating.
Regarding an animal ripping itself to shreds, I can honestly say I've never had this happen in all my years of trapping, but I am extremely attentive to ensuring that every one of my sets is humane, and that I'm using the correct equipment, it's been maintained properly, and I've set it in a manner that I have directional control of the animal's approach for a humane dispatch. I agree with what you've said - you do this poorly, and things can go badly for that captured animal. Regarding my support of other legally hunter's actions, I do not support anything that doesn't jive with my own personal set of ethics/values. I think everyone has their own set. It's a personal thing that you build throughout your life. Everyone has them, based on past personal experiences, and they may not be right or wrong for everyone. Now you've got me thinking, and here's a few for me. I don't agree with: shooting hen turkeys in the fall, shooting maternal WTD does that are accompanied by fawns, harvesting any of our sea duck species that are now globally threatened, any form of trophy hunting where the meat of the animal is not completely utilized, etc., etc. Actually, this could develop into an interesting tangent for this thread - what if everyone listed their top 5?

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You make sense too. I think in any activity there are the good fellows and the bad. I have seen both but honestly 90% of the trappers I know are stand up guys and do a good job. It is not an easy job after all.

My top five I'd have to think about carefully but here are a few off the cuff;

Hail Mary shots - desperation rarely pays off and usually just wounds with unrecovered game. When we hear a shot we expect a dead animal. We only still hunt so if you shoot the bush up one day, nothing usually is coming back tomorrow.

Buck shot in open areas - yes it works in tight but in our gang we have agreed no more period after one incident.

The doe with fawns - shoot the fawn if you really need to

Underpowered/marginal guns for big game

Not practicing and tuning in gun before hunting season - Everybody in our gang proves they can shoot before they join. If their gun is not tested before the hunt and proven accurate, it will not be used. If no other good gun is available that person does not hunt. I've heard every excuse but accept none. Usually I or another member have at least one spare proven shooter in the cabinet.

Just my opinion - I know i'll take some flack.


I'm sure there are quite a few folks on here that would bring up good ones.

Good points Jack as I will not use buckshot either , No exit hole and little to no blood trail.

Those are all good points...totally agree. The fact that you hold the group accountable to certain standards is solid just like our group will not be shooting coyotes in the spring.....self imposed for group benefit and just a tad of good common sense.

A personal pet peeve is the question that pops up frequently......"is a 22 good enough"? Those who ask that question don't know that they don't know.

I'm on side with Fenelon when he describes how our ethics drive our actions. Too bad some of our fellow hunters didn't rely on some ethics to determine their actions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

A personal pet peeve is the question that pops up frequently......"is a 22 good enough"? Those who ask that question don't know that they don't know.

I'm on side with Fenelon when he describes how our ethics drive our actions. Too bad some of our fellow hunters didn't rely on some ethics to determine their actions.

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".....don't know what they don't know" says and tells a lot. "Ethics drives our actions" is accurate,also,BUT, ethics is a very personal thing,much like telling someone which religion is better. Like I said before in an earlier post,we need to be open-minded and far less critical when our views differ from others. Different strokes for different folks.​

One thing I did notice is that guys that hunt coyotes every year do not shoot them in the spring well turkey hunting and guys that never hunt them will shoot them given the chance in the spring well turkey hunting ,It is like a target of opportunity.Dutch

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dutchhunter

One thing I did notice is that guys that hunt coyotes every year do not shoot them in the spring well turkey hunting and guys that never hunt them will shoot them given the chance in the spring well turkey hunting ,It is like a target of opportunity.Dutch

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Agree with you Dutch on that. Guys that hunt them in the winter tend to view them as a resource to be managed. Guys that want them completely wiped out don't so much hunt them for recreation, but they'll shoot one any and every chance they get otherwise.

The key word here is suitible for human consumption. Nobody I know would want to wear a mangey jacket. You need to keep your gun encased and unloaded until you see the coyote -- provided you have the licenses and it is open season.

I guess I have a 6th one too - the buckshot deal. I've shot a pile of deer over the years using it, but it was always swamp hunting where you were lucky to get a 20 yard shot, maximum. At that range, it was absolutely lethal, if you were on a watch, and had your time to line up well placed heart-lung shot. The guys that tried to stretch it to 35-40 yds did a pile of damage, esp. if they were shooting at a running target while dogging. Quick snap-shooting ended up with a lot of flying pellets, and I know for sure that many deer were poorly hit. I finally came to my senses and bought a muzzel stick for both myself and my wife. You get that one shot, so you don't pull the trigger unless you're sure it's going to count. You either hit it, or you miss it. No different than a well-placed shotgun slug or rifle round.
7th - piss-water American coffee
8th - single ply bowel towel
9th - hook eyelets on any type of boot
10th - fatty American bacon
11th - beer that has lime, honey, or lemon added to it
12th - diarrhea cramps when you're on the Don Valley Parkway at 0730hrs

Meh, SSS during spring turkey.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Obi-wanShinobi

Meh, SSS during spring turkey.

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Wonderful

I thought I was up on the acronyms, but this one's drawing a blank. "SSS"means shat-shower-shave in my neck of the woods.

LOL...the other meaning is Shoot-Shovel-Shutup