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I don't see why the guys life is being ruined....
He paid $50K to guides to ensure a legal hunt. He didn't do anything wrong. If anyone is at fault it would be the professionals he paid...
I feel bad for this guy.....
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/us-dentist...1677.html?vp=1
Without knowing all the details (if he knowingly played any part in the poaching), all I can say is that it sounds like a nightmare for the guy. Most people outside the countries in which these animals are legally hunted know nothing about how the animals are managed, so they automatically condemn anyone who hunts them.
Yeah, the short answer is, people are more emotional than they are rational.
Really hard to determine if he was aware that he or the outfitter was was breaking any rules/laws.
The problem is ignorance of the law is not a defense. His dental clinic business is now likely jeopardized.
He has been linked to charges for illegal hunting in the past, I read that there was a black bear illegally taken in the states.
I know that 2 is coincidence and 3 is a pattern but he apparently has an iffy hunting past.
Beat me to it Fox. His sketchy past won't help his defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
My initial reaction was that he was being unfairly targeted. I then read an article that stated that after the kill, the two guides worked to get the collar off the lion and destroyed it.
He had to have been witness to that and therefore should have had some indication that the animal, with a tracker on, was protected.
What a way to screw it up for everybody!
The two S.A. guides I heard from yesterday were not too happy about it. The EU is talking about making the import of African hunting trophy illegal so their revenues are going to down again.
It will be interesting to follow this, I just hate for the anti's to have all this fuel before the final verdict is determined....
Did he not see the collar before he shot.
It wasn't illegal to shoot that lion. The controversy is, was he far enough from the park or not where it baited it and when he shot it the first time. It seems like you can't hunt right at the edge of the park, but at a certain distance there is no issue.
I have the feeling he knew who it was shooting at and didn't care about the consequences.
My understanding is the landowner whose property the lion was shot on did not have a "quota for lions".
That's I I read it as well...Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
Quite a bit of hunting on Africa is in enormous mostly fenced areas. Sounds to me all those involved knew exactly they were pulling a fast one. Likely happens more than they ever admit. They just happened to shoot a lion that was wearing a radio tracking collar. When hunting an animal comes with such a high price tag it brings out the worst in people.
I just find it interesting that because this particular lion was collared and being tracked by Oxford that it's a HUGE news story but if buddy shot a lion without a collar and no reputation amongst the locals, no one would ever hear about it on the news or social media nor would anyone really care. I'm not the biggest believer in "trophy hunting" but I recognize individuals do this. Social media takes news stories and explodes them over the media channels fueling people's minds with "every hunter is a terrible human being" that's what grinds my gears.
it's interesting that many of the bashing posts I've been reading are related to "trophy hunting" and not hunting in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobbler_Hunter7
I've read that as well but there are many on various sources that bash hunting in general too.Quote:
Originally Posted by duckbnot
Apparently it was at night with lights - with a bow. I heard crossbow but in other photos he was using a compound bow.Quote:
Originally Posted by sambo
What really bother me is that it took them (the report claimed) 40 hours to track down and finish off the poor lion (with a rifle). Gives archers a black eye.
you have to take that with a grain of salt ,,,I am sure the truth will come out ,and I can see it being hard to see a collar on a full mane lion .I may well be that the guide and pro new what was going on ,but if what thy say about it being after dark and with lights I can see the hunter not seeing a collar ,,Dutch
Obviously I am watching this unfold with great interest having just returned from Zimbabwe last Sunday. I have seen so many things posted online and in the press it is hard to tell what the truth is. Bottom line - no permit = illegal hunt. Like everything else nowadays this has been tried in social media and when the real verdict comes out it will be a mere byline. Some sad things are that they keep referring to him as a hunter and not a poacher if he did what they say he did, paints all of us hunters with the same brush. The damage to the hunting industry could be incredible and a major setback for conservation through hunting. It also illustrates that you must know who you are booking with for a hunt. You wouldn't book a caribou, bear or moose hunt here and not do some research, same goes for over there. The antis are having a field day with this ...
Illustrated with statements like: '"If, as has been reported, this dentist and his guides lured Cecil out of the park with food so as to shoot him on private property ... he needs to be extradited, charged, and, preferably, hanged," People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals said in a statement Wednesday. The statement, emailed to The Associated Press, came from Ingrid Newkirk, president of the animal rights organization.'
I always keep the following pic with me whenever the antis start to bash hunting. It always comes down to facts vs emotions.
Attachment 30340
Wether the dentist was in on it or duped by crooked guides doesn't matter any more. He has been tried and convicted by the Internet. This type of thing is why I think a lot of the television shows are detrimental to hunting. The emphasis on trophy size will always be spun negatively by the antis and they far outnumber the legitimate sportsmen. I truly believe hunters are thier own worst enemies at times. This new desire to document everything with gopro cameras and post everything online should be done with a bit of strategic editing. I truly don't get the need to be on video but I'm getting cranky as I age I've been told.
I hope the anti groups don't start naming all the moose, deer and bears in Ontario or we are in trouble
I'm sure this will blow over when the next big news story comes along. Remember the kerfuffle over the lady that shot the Giraffe? It dropped off the radar after a few days,too. The media don't have any good news stories,lately and this is driven by PETA,IFAW and of course,every actor that ever wants to work in their anal-retentive PC world. What a pathetic bunch they are.
if this were Facebook.Quote:
Originally Posted by KMG Canada
/love this comment and thoughts.
only other thing I'd add and for the love of what ever gods you believe in, when will we, the hunting community realize the power of the net, the power of perception and reality, and how "we" shoot ourselves in the foot, and why in the help aren't "we" leading the charge to see this guy and those involved dealt with.
Because we don't know the exact story... For now I think it's unfortunate, weather he was in the wrong or is innocent, that his entire life is destroyed. All the talk in the last couple of years about bullies..... Is this guy not being bullied by probably the same people who condem bullying? If he's was in the wrong does that make bullying ok? If he's innocident how does he go back to normality? Who takes the blame when he can't handle this anymore and takes his own life? Why would anyone, especially fellow hunters, want to jump on the hate wagon?Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
Just don't start baiting moose next to a provincial park or you'll be accused or luring bullwinkel off protected lands. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by B Wilson
"Why would anyone, especially fellow hunters, want to jump on the hate wagon?"Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffBondar
Because if this fellow did what he is accused of (and it appears that he did - I'm not seeing him defend himself very well) - he has done a lot of damage to the "hunter image". I only need to look at my facebook feed and see the number of non-hunting friends I have - who know I hunt - who are reposting peta and other broadsweeping anti-hunting crap.
This guy has many archery record (elk, white rhino, leopard....) and has pretty much shot every big game in N.A so he must knew who and what is was dealing with. I don't think he can play it dumb.... There are a lot of lions to shot out there so targeting that one might have been done legally but it wasn't a smart move and now he is paying for it.
Still innocent until proven guilty....
In the big picture, why is this blown out of proportion? Because it's a Lion that was given a name! Do not all animals deserve the same respect? Would this exact same story be news worthy if everything was exactly the same except he shot a gazelle instead? Or maybe a hyena? Is he being penalized really for possibly breaking the law or is he being penalized for shooting a lion?
Until he's sentenced I'm more then happy to defend this guy.....
It was essentially a "pet lion" yes - that's what the uproar is about now its morphing into a more general anti-hunting sentiment. Your a logical guy and say - but its a wild lion, the name thing shouldn't matter. But it does to a huge chunk of the general population who are more emotional less logical.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffBondar
Jeff.
my take. From what has surfaced it's hard to say "innocent", very. Lets cut to the chase (rather than discuss/analyze various elements)
He admits shooting it
He regrets it.
Ignorance, no matter how much we pay guides to ensure "all" is legal....We ultimately have the choice to pull the trigger or not.
If we haven't learned by now the power of the net and as KMG rightfully said, just how much damage it can do.
Ask some cops in the states.
Its only been, what a month since the Giraffe and this one has even more people up arms, more traction, more play.
Not sure exactly what the answer is, but we need to get in front of them.
The crazy thing is more people are excited and ranting about a lion getting killed than are ranting about ISIS that is torturing and massacreing thousands and expanding thier ground. Not condoning what these 3 poachers did but in the wild lions die every day and usually in very violent territory/dominance battles. An animal dieing in the wild is a normal thing. They all die. Now you have activists calling for death sentences and hangings yet they say and do nothing about atrocities happening all the time? Thousands of cattle were slaughtered during mad cow breakouts yet no outrage about them. I guess "life" is not really an equal thing for activists. If you are cute ( seal pups) you have greater standing and get more attention and respect than a Holstien? I guess Mufassa is a god to these people?
Yeah well, while it's related and I had quite a bit to say that on my FB wall. About that and some of the other hiprocrisys and insanity, on just that aspect alone and no doubt some of my friends don't like me very much today...
if we can, lets "try" to keep the scope of this very complex and broad topic (like other issues) as narrow as can
:)
Exactly terrym !!!! Well said!!! As I said on here a while back when the bear was shot in Toronto. Smoky the bear, Leo the lion, Gerome the giraffe, Sammy the seal and on and on. God like sacred status to garner worldwide attention by all the movie stars and whack jobs that know or care less about nature , logic and common sense than an anvil would. Slaughtered humans , human trafficking, child pornography, child labour etcetera, etcetera. Seldom a whimper or much fuss over " real" tragedies but stand back if "ONE"Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
of Walt Disneys critters garners any attention. When you have whack jobs calling for death and head mounts of a person, you automatically know your dealing with individuals whom are a half bubble off of plumb.
Social media is such a double edged sword. On one hand it allows folks like us to get together, but on the other everything we say and do is out there for scrutiny. I started another thread about our recent trip this summer to South Africa and to Zimbabwe. I was writing up a story to share with my fellow hunters and last night stopped posting after my Barbary Sheep hunt. The reason you may ask? The next part of the hunt was for giraffe, commonly hunted in RSA, yet obviously very sensitive to the greenies ... sadly the recent controversy is enough to make me wonder sometimes if participating on social media is worth the potential backlash. I guess the antis win a small victory if we begin to hide in the shadows. Today it is the giraffe and lion tomorrow the black bear. Sorry if I took this a bit off topic.
KMG.
Not sure how to word this, grant some latitude. While I whole heartedly agree we should be sensitive, try to avoid stirring a hornets nest through words, images or stories.Quote:
sadly the recent controversy is enough to make me wonder sometimes if participating on social media is worth the potential backlash
There comes times when you kind of have to say "Well crap, I know if I say much, I know what's coming".. Not unlike some things here, when people start taking pot shots, and/or utter disdain for others thoughts (opinions)..
After reading many comments from acquaintances and friends vilifying "trophy hunters" and more. Just had to step in the line of fire.
The "battle" if you will isn't for the Antis, its for the middle ground.
By late last night/this moring, a few of my friends (a couple no doubt I pissed off) and maybe I lost a couple others (don't care, they aren't friends if they cant handle it and prefer herd mentality). Figured it out.
I may not have convinced a few who are perfectly fine with sustenance hunting, but dead set against Trophy hunting. Not my goal (to each his own). I provoked them to think, to realize its not so simple as the Antis and Rickys and more and that there is so much to weigh. Pointed out some of their hipocracies, or that by calling us sociopathic @55s (yup I got that from a couple) ...or even something as simple.
"can you see the collar in that mane in all the heart wrenching images of Cecil".....
/no regrets
And lol auto spellers.
All we need to do to understand the animal rights groups is understand that it's always all about the money from donations to "the cause" from the bambi set. Every time something like this inevitably happens,these organizations are experts at exploitation and manipulation of the media with hysterics and vilification. They can then sit back and watch the donation money come pouring in from a pathetically gullible public. When these organizations advocate murdering people as a way to protect animals,every thinking person must realize that this is all coming from the lunatic fringe. It's sad that supposedly educated people can't see through that.
Had one very smart friend turn it around on my when I said something to the effect of "ricky, with his fame and fortune,ljust think what he could be doing instead.
She replied something to the effect of (and she recognized I provoking thought) called me on it. :)
"I think what he is doing is wonderful, he's speaking for the voiceless and provoking thought"
Fair enough, I'm good with that.
Isnt it funny how despite his resources that's all he does is make sure he stays in the limelight.
question everything.
The problem if you will Trimmer is by using those arguments..."You cant believe the Antis they are only in it for the money". Same could be said of the Pro hunting crowd, be they Safari international, be they gun manufactorers, be they XYZ.
Who actually gives back.
Ricky with his coifed hair, fading celebrity career, and manicured fingernails who has likely never broken a sweat or chipped a nail or spent a few days in the bush and been eaten by mosquitos?
Well said!Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
While I will post things on hunting sites ... I do as I suspect most of us do refrain from stirring the pot on social media sites such as Facebook etc...
the middle ground in my small circle (all I can reach) are
my friends, some of their friends
and FB is best tool I have to use (when needed).
Most despite me ruffling a few feathers, once they started reading some of the things on my wall....and theirs...agreed that's what's needed.
is open minded, open dialogue looking at all angles.
Im happy with that, most are quite smart and once they start really looking below the surface, are willing to entertain there is a lot, and how easy social media can be used by activist and to get caught up with the herd....................
But there will always be those that, despite their ability to understand that the issues are much deeper than the carefully cropped pictures and the emotion driven comments, chose to find facts an inconvenient truth. All we have to do is look at how the numbers were cooked to allow Al Gore to convince millions that the world will melt next week if we don't stop driving cars.
I am therefore agreeing that it is indeed the middle that needs to be the focus. The far left will always opt of the cloak of emotion, rhetoric and contrived slogans. It is a sad testimony to the human condition that people will call for a man to be condemmed for shooting a lion based only on partial facts.
Ah social online justice. A lynch mob by any other name just isn't as violent. If the events surrounding this lion's death are true, this person needs to be charged and allowed to defend himself. That is due process and it is the fundamental cornerstone to any fair legal system.
Let's not kid ourselves here, even if the lion was taken under clean circumstances, there would be the exact same outrage as there is right now. People had placed this wild animal into the realm of pet because the researches gave it a name resulting in people anthropomorphizing this wild animal. The main reason people are outraged at this is because they think it was some loveable, cuddly house cat. This house cat no doubt would have ripped many who are outraged a new one if the circumstances were right. One congresswoman actually is calling for a federal investigation despite it not happening anywhere in the US.
There is way too much hyperbole around this issue for people to have access to social media (people thinking lions in Zimbabwe are protected, etc.). I am not giving this person a pass, far from it, but I don't think we should be measuring him up for a hanging rope either. Let's figure out who knew what and who should have known what before we go off thinking we know who knew what.
Dyth
Sounds like that yesterday during an interview, the guide admitted seen the collar and it is not legal to shot a an animal that wear one of them so they are been charge. Guides use binoculars so doesn't really matter how far the game is....
Looking for a link to share....
That's what i was thinkingQuote:
Originally Posted by seabast
From what I've read, everything was legal about the hunt. Where they messed up was the land owner didn't have lion on his hunt quota. Poor guy is ruined and people outraged over a dead lion. What a messed up world we live in when people want to sell body parts from aborted babies and nobody gives a flying F but some guys shoots Cecil the Lion and he should be hung.
I find it hard to believe that this man spent this amount of money and knowingly poached an animal. I would like to believe that he is a victim of others taking advantage of his money. At this point the last thing we as hunters need to do is help fuel the antis and be more civil than the masses and stay neutral. The majority of us will never be in a situation where we can afford to pay this kind of money to go hunting so for us to say we wouldn't do it is not really a fair statement to make. If you had access to unlimited funds I would bet you might think differently. This mans life has turned upside down and torn to pieces overnight. He might get to enjoy life again but not the same and it won't be in the same town and probably won't be for quite awhile.
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/lion-zimba...142232231.html
For all the haters....
"Are you saying that all this noise is about a dead lion? Lions are killed all the time in this country," said Tryphina Kaseke, a used-clothes hawker on the streets of Harare. "What is so special about this one?"
"Why are the Americans more concerned than us?" said Joseph Mabuwa, a 33-year-old father-of-two cleaning his car in the centre of the capital. "We never hear them speak out when villagers are killed by lions and elephants in Hwange."
Sure has been one helluva shouting episode for the antis, that's for sure.
The guy won't have to worry about working his practice again... He can simply civil sue everyone who sent him death threats and travel the world blasting protected species till he dies!
I see MNR is viewing this thread. MNR, any thoughts?
just wondering what makes you think that ,,DutchQuote:
Originally Posted by JeffBondar
THIS!!^^^^^^^^^^Quote:
Originally Posted by gooseman
Dallas Safari Club Statement
DALLAS - A Zimbabwean landowner and a professional hunter are facing charges for the poaching of a collared lion outside of Hwange National Park. Their client from the U.S. also could face charges if investigators find he was a knowing accomplice in the crime. DSC abhors poaching, commends the swift enforcement efforts of Zimbabwean authorities and supports prosecution of convicted poachers to the fullest extent of the law.
DSC encourages the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to conduct additional investigations into possible violations of American wildlife laws.
Finally, DSC also supports the Safari Operators Association of Zimbabwe in actions against its members who violate wildlife laws. Lawful, ethical, vigilant hunters play an important role in public acceptance of sustainable hunting as a vital tool for modern wildlife conservation and management.
None of the individuals or safari companies implicated in this incident are affiliated with DSC. DSC works with government authorities and professional hunting associations, and enforces its own code of conduct, to ensure its members and convention exhibitors are in good standing.
Am convinced people either cant or don't want to see the forest for the trees.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
While millions and millions of people all over the world are going off the deep end over Cecil and Trophy Hunting.
Where would Cecil be without water?
Right here at home in Ontario
Right here at home in the GTA where we are....
/looks at the lakes and streams aquifiers, cold water streams
Pick your fight, pick your cause.
No clean fresh water, no trees, no air, no animals, no produce
But hey, lets go off the deep about something that really in the grand scheme of things. .
Judged and guilty because we hunt, yet...................
Exactly
How is it that this one animal dying eclipses the genocide that occurs in the very same continent....
Obi' - this world is surely messed up - and getting messier by the day - when you bring up the fact that Planned Parenthood is killing babies and selling body parts and the media and white house tries to defend this you know how bad things are - I don't see how in all honesty we can point a finger at the Nazis - they did similar things - I've said it before and I'll say it again - what we need is some real hard times then maybe people will worry about things that really mean something and not the fact that a lion was shot - in all likelihood this lion because of its age would have been killed by other male lions in the very near future anyway -Quote:
Originally Posted by Obi-wanShinobi
SCI Statement
Washington, D.C. – Safari Club International (SCI) supports a full and thorough investigation of the circumstances surrounding the death of Cecil the lion in Zimbabwe. SCI has imposed immediate emergency membership suspensions of both the involved hunter and his guide/professional hunter, and they will remain in place pending the outcome of an investigation.
Safari Club International condemns unlawful and unethical hunting practices. SCI supports only legal hunting practices and those who comply with all applicable hunting rules and regulations, and SCI believes that those who intentionally take wildlife illegally should be prosecuted and punished to the maximum extent allowed by law.
Safari Club International is a 501(c)4 corporation, has approximately 47,000 members worldwide, many of whom also hunt worldwide. Safari Club's missions include the conservation of wildlife, protection of the hunter’s rights, and education of the public concerning hunting and its use as a conservation and management tool.
He is going to have a tough time to explain why he didn't go to the authorities when he realized he shot a collared lion.Quote:
Originally Posted by KMG Canada
On the other hand with money you can get good lawyers so.....
could you imagine what would happen today if we were throw back in time to when my grandparents living in Holland had to eat chicken backs and feet as that was all thy could get to feed there 9 kids ,thy would boil up chicken backs and feet that the local butcher would save for them for a few cents a pound ,that with some homemade bread was dinner the only meal of the day ,,,I am sure many folks can tell stores of war time families going hungry .people had more to worry about then what some guy was doing half way around the world ,,D
They only care because this one incident has made worldwide news. I bet situations like this happen all the time in Africa. Thumbs down to SCI, they wouldn't have even made a statement had this lion not been named Cecil.Quote:
Originally Posted by KMG Canada
I saw a user reading the thread last night with the name MNR. I checked the profile and that person has no posts but I saw some other familiar users on here also checked in on user MNR. I just did a name search and can't find it now...Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchhunter
There are four northern white rhinos left according to cnn. I wonder what they are worth. ? How many sharks got killed for their fins last year. Over a hundred thousand. On and on
I guess i fall under the category of antis, seeing as to how i cannot begin to fathom why anyone in their right mind will take an animal that has no dietary value, if you aren't going to eat it, what's the point of killing it ?
What sort of pride do you obtain from shooting any kind of animal that you will not harvest in it's entirety ?
If you end up donating a giraffe to local populations, that's one thing.
But what do you after you kill a big cat ?
Definitely an anti statement afraz. Why don't you start a thread entitled, "if you don't eat the crows and coyotes you shoot then you shouldn't be hunting and I'm against you." See how many local friends you make with that one....Quote:
Originally Posted by Afraz
Interesting article on the possible future of African hunting ...
Dr. Rosie Clooney is Chair of the Sustainable Use and Livelihoods Specialist Group at the International Union for Conservation of Nature (IUCN).
Zimbabwe: R.I.P Cecil the Lion. What Will Be His Legacy? and Who Decides?
OPINION
By Dr. Rosie Clooney
London — Cecil the lion, a magnificent senior male, much loved and part of a long-term research project, was lured out of a safe haven in Zimbabwe's Hwange National Park last week and apparently illegally shot, to endure a protracted death.
As the global outrage pours out, consider for a moment that trophy hunting has now been banned across Africa. Trophy hunting is the limited "high value" end of hunting, where people (often the wealthy and mainly Westerners) pay top dollar to kill an animal. In southern Africa it takes place across an area close on twice the sum total of National Parks in the region.
Hwange Park staff numbers have been radically cut, and there is little money for cars or equipment for protection. Bushmeat poaching is on the rise and the rangers are ill equipped to cope.
It arouses disgust and revulsion - animals are killed for sport - in some cases (such as lions) the meat not even eaten. Even the millions of weekend recreational hunters filling their freezers are uncertain about trophy hunting.
It seems to have little place in the modern world, where humanity is moving toward an ethical position that increasingly grants animals more of the moral rights that humanity grants (in principle at least) to each other.
So let us move now through the thought bubble where the EU and North America ban import of trophies, Namibia, South Africa, Zimbabwe and others ban trophy hunting, the airlines and shipping lines refuse to carry trophies, and the industry dies a slow (or fast) death, ridding the world of this toxic stain on our collective conscience
We turn to survey southern Africa, proud of what we have achieved by our signing of online petitions, our lobbying of politicians, our Facebook shares and comments.
Did we save lions? Have we safeguarded wildlife areas? Have we dealt the death blow to trafficking of wildlife? Have we liberated local communities from imperialistic foreign hunters?
Let's go back to Hwange National Park, the scene of Cecil's demise. The Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlife Management Authority, responsible for managing this and other National Parks, is now in trouble.
It derived most of its income for protection, conservation and management of wildlife across the country from trophy hunting, with minimal revenue from central government (not well known for its good governance and transparent resource allocation).
Hwange Park staff numbers have been radically cut, and there is little money for cars or equipment for protection. Bushmeat poaching is on the rise and the rangers are ill equipped to cope. The commonly used wire snares are indiscriminate, and capture many lions and other predators who die agonizing and pointless deaths.
In Namibia, more than half of the communal conservancies (covering 20 percent of the country) have collapsed, because the revenue from non-hunting sources (such as tourism) is not enough to keep them viable and they have not been able to find alternative sources of income.
Namibia's communal conservancies are an innovation of the 1990s, and have been responsible for dramatic increases in a wide range of wildlife species outside of national parks including elephant, lion, and black rhino. Income from trophy hunting and tourism has encouraged communities to turn their land over to conservation.
Communities retain 100 percent of benefits from sustainable use of wildlife, including hunting - almost 18 million Namibian dollars in 2013. This money was spent by communities on schools, healthcare, roads, training, and the employment of 530 game guards to protect their wildlife.
Almost two million high protein meals a year were a by-product of the hunting. Now this is all gone. A few conservancies managed to find wealthy philanthropic donors to prevent them going under - but they cross their fingers that the generosity will continue to flow for decades to come.
Game guards are unemployed, unable to feed their families, looking for any opportunity to obtain some income. Communities are angry - they were never asked by the world what they thought about this. Few journalists or social media activists ever reflected their side of the story. Conservation authorities and communities are again becoming enemies.
Where the conservancies have collapsed, the wildlife is largely wiped out. The bad old days pre-reform have returned, and wildlife is worth more dead than alive.
Hungry bellies are fed with poached bushmeat and the armed poaching gangs have moved in - communities are no longer interested in feeding information to police to help protect wildlife, game guard programmes have collapsed for lack of funds and have spare targeted to supply the criminal syndicates, and rhino horns, lion bone, and ivory are being shipped out illicitly to East Asia.
In South Africa, trophy hunting has stopped, including the small proportion that was "canned". On the private game ranches that covered some 20 million hectares of the country, though, revenues from wildlife have effectively collapsed.
Those properties with scenic landscapes that are close to major tourist routes or attractions and have good tourism infrastructure are surviving on revenues from phototourism, but gone are the days of expanding their wildlife asset base by buying land and restocking this with additional wildlife. Most of the other landowners have returned to cattle, goats and crop farming in order to educate their children, run a car, pay their mortgages.
Wildlife on these lands has largely gone along with its habitat - back to the degraded agriculture landscapes that prevailed before the 1970s when wildlife use by landholders (including hunting) became legal here.
Lions that were on these farmlands are long gone, and the few that remain in national parks are shot as problem animals as soon as they leave the park. The great conservation success story of South Africa is rapidly unraveling.
Speculative? Yes, but a reasonable prediction, because this has happened before. Bans on trophy hunting in Tanzania 1973-1978, Kenya in 1977 and in Zambia from 2000-2003 accelerated a rapid loss of wildlife due to the removal of incentives for conservation. Early anecdotal reports suggest similar patterns are already happening in Botswana, which banned all hunting last year.
Let us mourn Cecil, but be careful what you wish for.
That was a great read, thanks for posting.Quote:
Originally Posted by KMG Canada
A very good read..... I hope the ones wishing to pull the plug on this type of hunting see the other side and just don't look away.
If that is the way you feel, I would not be posting such feelings on this forum , best to keep them to yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afraz
Sorry,but i have to disagree with this post. Do you expect people to eat the coyotes,foxes,badgers,skunks etcetera that are taken for their pelts? So I guess by your logic, all of us trappers and predator hunters are not of sound minds????Quote:
Originally Posted by Afraz
Humans use animals in many ways. Sometimes it isn't pretty. When a lion is legally killed the money it generates is enormous in those countries. People exploit whatever natural resources are available to them. When it's done with proper over site and laws local people win. Even if the meat isn't consumed by humans quite often if is used as bait to assist another hunter kill another animal and pay huge money to do it. The hide of a lion also generates money with taxidermists so the trickle down economics of a well heeled hunter on Safari is substantial. People like to eat "Pate" but if you saw how the ducks and geese are treated to produce the monstrously enlarged livers needed many would freak. Yet that industry thrives. There aren't many alternative sources of income on many of these safari destinations. The wealthy Western "Progressives" with their crocodile skin handbags should stay the hell out of their business.
Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
My wife and I watched a program a few days ago and it was on how they make " crocodile skin handbags" and the price ? you wouldn't believe it, $ 36,000.00 we both sat there and at the same time uttered " WOW ".
This is the kind of Sci-Fi the antis use too, even if there is some true to it it's not my thing at all. It doesn't change anyone's mind, it just makes believers believe even more about their BS.Quote:
Originally Posted by KMG Canada
My post today on FB and my blog:
Cecil the Lion
1. Do not take 1st world views and values and place them in the 3rd world and expect your moral outrage to mean anything. Unless you've been boots on the ground in Africa, and have seen firsthand the imbalance between the money a country spends ( or doesn't) on it's people, and what hunting brings in, and directly assists, just shut up...period...full stop.
2. The amount of money that hunters bring to regions devastated by poverty, outstrips any and all funding that is funneled through animal rights and conservation groups. How much did PETA spend in Africa last year? ZERO. How much did PETA spend on marketing, and photo-shopping ads and marketing pieces in support of their views? MILLIONS. Each hunter that lands in a region contributes $15-20K directly through license fees, this is not including any accommodation expenses, direct compensation to local businesses, nor the fact that many Africans can not afford to hunt, yet foreign hunters are compelled to donate the meat and products from game animals for local consumption.
3. The world is not Walt Disney. Animals do not have names. That is a North American affectation that we place on them. It personalizes, and humanizes that which is not. The lion in question was just that....a wild lion. Not endangered, as some would attest, not a local favorite, as many would assert. Simply a wild lion. Collared...yes, and off limits as he was part of a study, yes.
4. Lions are not endangered. In fact in many African countries their deaths bring joy to villages that live near their populations. There are many African people who know at least one person with a lion attack story....many do not end well. No one living in Africa is weeping for the death of this lion, except those few who have seen an opportunity to exploit North American guilt.
5. The fault is not with the Dentist who made the shot. He arrowed the lion, then as part of an ethical hunt, spent a very long period of time tracking his quarry. He did so under direction of his guide. The fault lies with the guide, not the hunter. The rules in many countries for foreign hunters are expressly that a hunter must use a professional guide, so that all rules and regs are adhered to. In this case, the guide erred, but why villianize a poor native Zimbabwean, when the world press can crucify a white American dentist.
6. There has been much discussed about the head and cape that was taken. Well folks, in the hunting world, if you wish to have a mount done be it moose, deer, bear, or any other game animal, you take the head and cape, which the taxidermist then uses.
7. As reprehensible, and offensive as some may find the act of hunting on safari, or taking trophys. The fact remains that it actually has done more for wildlife population controls, and in fact improvements, than any other group on this Earth. When a value has been place on licenses and tags, the governments of those nations also put a focus on population protection, and preservation. This includes the prosecution of poachers.
If you take issue with any of these arguments, that's fine. Do the world a favour, shut up, and get off your wallet and do something about it....talk is cheap, so is your moral outrage at non-facts as reported by the media.
Great Write up BBD. Can you post a link to your FB post so I can share it on FB?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
Thanks
Jeff
no kidding bbd, nice write up and feel free to find me
Just shared, thanks
I have an interesting fact to share:
Someone very closed to me is about to marry an experienced South African hunting guide. He just told her that he received a huge amount of quote request for lion hunt since Cecil got shot. Apparently, not been sure how long it's going to be allowed for every one is trying to get one booked for next year. Cecil might cost the life of a lot more lion and for a lot more money...
BBD, well said and spot on!
Seabast, I have also noticed a tiny increase on inquiries for lions, but I think that is natural as people consider the potential future for lion hunting. The real fear is the banning of import into places like the USA and EU. The value of lions will drop and many will no longer keep them around. The old adage if it pays it stays runs true in RSA.
Our typical plains game hunts are for the ordinary guy price wise RSA and we are finding this hasn't effected inquiries yet, although I find there is a lot more questions about export and shipping possibilities ... natural I suppose all things considered.
Hey Jeff, and others.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffBondar
I've had an interest in outdoor writing, with particular interest in firearms for some time. I have had a few folks who write for magazines give me a bit of mentoring. It was with that in mind, that I started a blog to build up a body of work.
If interested, give it a read, feel free to follow, as I've been posting articles at a rate of about 1 per week.
http://theworkingmansgunpage.blogspot.ca/
Added. Nice to place a face with the name.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
You can add me too if you'd like. Jeff
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
Beautifully put. Thanks for that bbd.
A little info on how it's done...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtTYL9TSnXs
The guide would be a heck of a catch too.....
Nice nice....Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
Yes, double thumbs up... :):goodstuff::goodstuff:Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
Probably wouldn't need a shooting stick. :joker:
^now that's funny, because it's true :)Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21