Would like too get in contact with a hunter with a small male setter.
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Would like too get in contact with a hunter with a small male setter.
How small are you looking for?
Ours are on average around 50 lbs.
Hey TerryM further to your PM Curious too know if you would like too share why the switch from a brit to a small setter?
He got smart finally. :silly:
Why I like a high white tail:
http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/...pszajk1t8s.jpg
That's not nice Sharon. Was raised on Brits back than they were little bigger than cats. Lost my taste for them when they got bigger than shorthairs. Hence why though love my Stella really would like to down size the next generation. Really want to see if there are other hunters out there that would rather pick the runt of the litter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharon
Oooh Sharon :scream:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharon
I remember you being at a field trial at Hullet 3 years ago when my Britt spanked a few Setters in the gundog class. A well bred Britt will hold its own in our Eastern covers no problem.
The reason I'm going with a Setter this time is the stars just lined up with this pup I'm getting. I wanted a started female and a local Pro trainer I know had a litter on the ground with great breeding. This pup was hunted quite a bit on grouse and woodcock and shows promise. She's the runt of the litter but that means nothing. I saw her work on planted quail and Chuckars and this little girl has the right stuff. She will be coming home in January after her first heat cycle as my Britt is intact and I don't want to spay until she has had 2 cycles. Then again I'm not completely writing off the idea of having a litter from her. We have a fabulous male in mind if she turns out to be what we think she will be.
As for smaller sized dogs, absolutely. No need for a ridge running cheetah in my world. Smaller ones take less room on the couch and bed :joker:
I hope you know I was kidding Terry. I forgot humor doesn't come across very well on the internet. I apologize.
(I don't remember your Brittany ever beating a setter.:joker:
I am sure he knows, we all do. It's all good fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharon
WRT size - FNF how small do you want to go? What size is Stella?
Stella is 22" at the shoulder. To my eye she is huge so smaller than her would be the goal.
When you cut your teeth on these guys
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/...psrmhoxptm.jpg
(sorry about the quality its a pic of a pic)
Hard to get use to anything bigger.
Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
Terry
Are you getting your pup from Spencer, as I think you might be(I think I read something about that in another thread). If so congratulations, great dog. I hunted over her up north at the grouse camp with them. They were exposed to a lot of birds, and we dropped quite a few over her. I was there for a few days with my BF who was also getting trained by Spencer, All I can say is he isquite the dedicated trainer, I am so happy I went to him. I think Sharon had some influence with me picking him. But then again when are her words not wise!!!
Finsfurfeathers how is your dog bred?
Yes, I'm getting "Gracy". The little Tricolor female. She's actually headed to Kansas next week to hunt quail and pheasant. Yes, Spencer is a fabulous trainer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Gunner
Heck to old way a male setter and a female setter :silly:.Quote:
Originally Posted by trkyhntr21
Long story short. Fate introduced me to a hunter from Winsor that had a litter of pups. Checked out mom an pop liked their profile. Picked Stella out of the litter as liked her conformation or at least from what I could assess from an 8 week old pup.
I envy you guys for being young enough to adopt another fabulous friend . --- Since the demise of my last-one (on Nov.25/15) I feel kind of lonely (regardless of the 56 years with my wife --- lol) . --- I WANT another GWP --- but ******* --- ****** !Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
Dogs keep you active and healthier. Get another one.
Sorry folks but I have to comment on this thread. We've been breeding setters for 40 plus years and have produced some great competitive dogs.
Breeding simply for size is a huge mistake. The secret to improving the breed is looking for what your dog lacks and crossing to an animal that passes on what you need in terms of what these dogs are bred for.
Robert Wehle produced some of the best pointers the world has ever seen and his secret was line breeding. Yes he went outside from time to time when he recognized a trait that was proven to be passed on by the sire and he wanted to bring it into his kennel.
Then he went back to his line and integrated that trait into his dogs. If any of you would be interested I would be glad to forward an article by Mr. Wehle on his methods.
Good to see you posting Tim. I didn't start out looking for a runt, this dog just kind of fell on my lap. I just don't worry about her smaller size affecting her capabilities. I don't make the trek out West so for our woodcock jungles and heavy cover I'm good with a smaller dog.
That is a proven breeding practice amongst many of the top working dog breeders not just Wehle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Tufts
so true!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Tufts
but ask around what buyers (new and seasoned alike) really care about and that is the first and foremost criteria.
this phenomenon is not breed specific. size is simply a result of functionality of a hunting dog and not the other way around.
this is even true if we talk about toy dogs, which are supposed to be a fashion accessory.
if size alone is what matters, the ladies would carry real rats in their purses and some of us would go hunting with a goat
I know a couple guys who run labs who look for the biggest they can find. Mine is bigger than yours type of thing maybe? But I'm not a lab guy so really don't know if it affects either way?
Well said Tim. I wish you'd post more often. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Tufts
Not always the best policy, as size brings problems of its own e.g. a greater risk of joint problems. I wouldn't breed for size, or buy for size, either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
An interesting trend in spaniels: if we compare the dogs bred by Eudore Chevrier, who originally popularized the springer in North America, to today's springer, we find the dogs have lost ten pounds. The bench springer remains larger and heavier. There's a little springer in Washington who's just carried away CMs in the Canadian national and the US national amateur, and she's little bigger than a cocker. So the trend to bigger dogs does not necessarily reflect working requirements.
Well put it this way. Of the 2 guys i mentioned with the big Labs one has blown the ligaments of both rear legs out. So yes I agree larger heavier muscled dogs are definitely at risk.
Normally the problem is discussed according to breed not size. Certain breeds are more prone to dog CCL injuries, including : Labrador retrievers, Newfoundlands, German shepherds, rottweilers, and golden retrievers. However, as you said , the breeds mentioned are big dogs.
Obese animals and those that get occasional strenuous exercise -- so-called "weekend warriors" -- may also be more likely to develop CCL injuries.
Then again , my 35 pound setter has had 2 CCL surgeries.
Robert Wehle had a vision and a mission backyard breeders in general lack and most breed for practical or sentimental reasons, not in the best interest of improving the breed nor striving to produce exceptional bird dogs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Tufts
Fiddlin Rocky Boy X Elhew, bred with purpose.
[IMG]http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...20/003_3_1.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...20/002_2_1.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...20/004_4_1.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...ck20/009_9.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...20/005_5_1.jpg[/IMG]
Those pups look excellent.
My next dog will be a elhew pointer
Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
It takes decades and several generations of selective breeding and culling of offspring that don't conform to a high set of standards to produce a solid foundation with heritable desirable qualities and characteristics.Quote:
Originally Posted by stevietangles
Quote from the book Wing & Shot by Robert Wehle.," There are few true dog breeders in the country today. Many have no preconceived plan and in many cases do not even have a clear cut objective. Their matings are not carefully planned and little consideration is given to the pedigrees or bloodlines. They fly by the seat of their pants into some short term range program".
If you are seriously considering acquiring a dog, my advice is to seek out a reputable breeder that knows what he is trying to produce as an objective and is capable of producing it by employing a sound, well planned and intelligent breeding program.
And don't forget..."Get a shag" :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by sidelock
Having said that the only dog I currently have on the major cover dog circuit is a pointer..Kendal Hills Dawson Creek.
Tim, about 1987 I went down to Henderson Harbour to visit Wehle on July 4th weekend. I arrived at the same time as an 18 wheeler from San Francisco loaded with a shipment of Rattan Furniture - still in crates. Wehle and I spent 6 hours unpacking and moving furniture into his house while his wife watched Wimbledon and mine slept. At the end of the day we did sit in the new furniture drinking lemonade for an hour looking out over Lake Ontario while I tapped his eclectic interests. Neither wife, by the way, lasted another year.
Then in summer of 2001 Dave Fletcher showed up in Picton because of a story he was doing on Trademark for the Field. We sat in my living room one evening watching 3 hours of video he had done with Wehle at his place in Alabama. That video, albeit not professional, was both fascinating and insightful. Have no idea what he's done with it.
The NY property in Henderson is now a State Park in accordance with the terms of Wehle's will. The guy should have been the interesting man model for Dos Equos beer!
About 10 years ago I was looking for my next dog and I wanted an Elhew pointer. So I called a Hall of Fame trainer and asked where the best place was to get an Elhew pointer. His answer surprised me a little but he was correct "Bob's dead, there are no more elhews".Quote:
Originally Posted by stevietangles
Keep that in mind before you get too hung up on a name.
More on the topic from Earl C. CrangleQuote:
Originally Posted by sidelock
" Improving our bird dogs by selective breeding offers a tremendous challenge to those interested. The breeding of bird dogs cannot be compared to the breeding of beef cattle, where weight gain against time and the amount of feed consumed is the primary concern. Nor can the comparison apply to milk producing cows, laying chickens, whit mice and so on. Scientific breeding of these examples is mainly directed toward improvement of one or two factors that have practically no parallel in the breeding of bird dogs. It is not enough to merely study bloodlines and pedigrees. Our bird dogs today are the result of breeding based on superior performance more than any other single factor."
"Breed only the best individuals, and, thereafter, you must have a heartless culling system to achieve success."
I bet they would be close working though.....Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
I agree that one shouldn't just breed on paper alone but bloodlines and a pedigree full of champions is a start in the right direction providing both parents of a given litter are sound and proven exceptional or preferably outstanding individuals. Certain bloodlines are known for commonly passing on specific traits however desirable or undesirable those traits may be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakezilla
Ferell Miller through several years and generations of selective line breeding has practically cloned a winning line of dogs that are virtually identical in every respect including size, markings, gate, posture, nose, bird sense, temperament etc. and he's constantly in the winners circle.
That's the tough part and if you don't know the dogs personally it's really tough to find out. Sound, is the key word, there are lots of champions that are exceptional individuals athletically but I would not consider them mentally sound. People just put up with them because they are winners.Quote:
Originally Posted by sidelock
Any idea how many dogs the top breeders go through to get those winning individuals? I do. I am not saying they don't know what they are doing but everything isn't always as it seems.
Almost all the pups I have bought based on pedigree, and there are a few, didn't turn out. Lots of those big name dogs have issues that you never hear about or only hear about after you get a pup out of them and they aren't right in the head. The best success we have had in breeding wild bird dogs and field trial winners is breeding dogs we know.
Don't get me wrong we don't ignore pedigree, there are certain lines we avoid and other lines that we don't want too much of, but we usually have a good idea of what dogs we want to use before we go to pedigrees.
There are several non titled dogs I would breed to before titled dogs. These non titled dogs have the makings of a champion they just haven't had their day yet and may never have it but, they have the tools. Breed titles if you want to sell pups, breed dogs if you want winners and bird dogs. When I go to field trials I watch the dogs that consistently find birds in all conditions and don't pay much attention to the winners. There are certain dogs that will find birds every time they are down, they may not win or finish but they are always into birds. That's the starting point of all our breeding, bird dog first.
Buying an eight week old pup is a crap shoot period, no matter how you look at it regardless how a pup is breed. If you want guarantee, the best way to know exactly what you are getting is to buy a derby or a finished dog that comes with a reasonable assessment period so you can evaluate his temperament in different environment such as around children, strangers, other dogs, in the kennel etc. and only after you see him perform in different conditions to your satisfaction.
An honest and true reputable breeder by definition weeds out any significant undesirable inheritable genetic traits through a sound selective breeding program regardless how outstanding the individuals perform. There are just too many variables in dog breeding and even outstanding individuals can throw duds in a litter. Sometimes you just have to take chances in life however, with some due diligence, the more you familiarize yourself and study a subject, the better understanding you will have and the better chance of getting what you desire and achieving your goal.
I'm not a breeder but have raised a few litters in my time, I have a female that's breed in purple and many have commented how nice she is and ask if I have considered breeding her but I haven't even though she is constantly into birds, simply because she's a nuisance barker and she bounces off the walls with desire in the kennel or her crate when I work other dogs. These issues may be of little if any significance and overlooked by some but they matter to me personally and I avoid having to tolerate them. If I had the time and energy I could breed her and weed out these behavior issues down the line even though it may prove difficult because of the early behavioral influence dams transmit to their offspring but its much easier to avoid having to deal with the long process especially when considering having to cull.
My best advice therefore would be not to bother buying a pup but rather befriend someone with good bird dogs and you get to enjoy them without having to put up with the heart aches, vet bills, training related cost or any other unpleasant issues that comes with them.
Well said!
You are right in not breeding your female, I wouldn't breed her either. Unfortunately I know lots of people who would, including pros.
We recently sold our pick out of a litter we had because of similar reasons and he is doing a lot of winning. You could see at a young age he was going to be a looker I just didn't want to put up with, or breed on, his BS no matter how good he was.
Not questioning your integrity but how did the new owner feel about the dog, was he made aware of the potential issue and does he have the rights to breed him ?
I would consider a reputable breeder to provide full disclosure and even deny registration papers to prevent future breeding in some cases if issues are serious enough, even at the cost of loosing a sale.
They love him and are fine with him. There are certain things I won't tolerate that others will. I believe they have already bred him and he just turned a year old. The other reason we sold him is because we feel we have better, we had 5 young dogs at the time and he was number 5 on the list because of his issues. That whole breeding rights nonsense is BS, who am I to tell someone whether they can breed their dog or not. I have sold dogs to guys who wanted to breed the dog because it was the best bird dog they ever owned. My answer is always don't because there is better out there and we usually end up selling them a dog out of the next litter. The whole "reputable breeder" thing is a bit silly too, I have been screwed a couple times by people that many would consider "reputable breeders". The "reputable breeders" I have dealt with maintain their reputation because they are selling dogs to people who don't know what they are looking at. As soon as someone like me gets a dog or dogs, sees and raises the issues they quit answering their phone but they still cash the cheques.
I am not a breeder in the traditional sense, I am a coverdog trialer that works with a friend in the US and has maybe a litter a year. We have a set goal in mind, that being to produce the best wild bird dogs we can for the grouse woods and South Texas quail. We usually keep the litter until we can identify what we feel are the top two, keep them, and sell the rest to close friends and clients.
A close friend bought a pup from a cover dog breeder a few years ago and at approximately two years old he started developing seizures, after several visits to the vet and extensive blood work it was determined, or at least the vet concluded, that it was genetic. When the owner brought it to the breeder's attention, he replaced the dog with a 16 month old green broke pup "at no cost" or any dispute whatsoever, even though he assured the owner he wasn't aware of it being a genetic issues in his breeding program.
That's what I call a "reputable breeder", as to where the other kind of breeders that don't answer the phone and avoid customers get their reputation as being reputable is beyond me.
I had a bad experience once many years ago with a so called breeder and professional trainer***** from ******** and I made certain I brought the subject up and deservedly smeared his name publicly at all the crowd gatherings at every field trial I attended both in the US and here in Canada. It was the worst publicity anyone can create for himself for the mere cost of a $600 pup.
Individuals conducting bad business intentionally need to be exposed, made public and held accountable to hopefully at the very least discourage them from continuing to prey upon others.
That' s the way it should work but in my experience most of the time it doesn't.
Surprisingly I enjoyed reading the tail end of this thread, I was reluctant to click on it for fear that it deteriorated by now...
Thank you for thoughtfull contributions sidelock and jakezilla.
On the subject of breeding cows... Few breed clubs in Germany use Dogbase, it's genetics database and modelling software originally used for breeding cows ;) What it does it records various working attributes of dogs (based on tests), conformation to standard and health issues (such as hips and epilepsy). The culture of breed clubs is very different in Germany from the one in NA...
Of course, it's best to know the potential breeding pair (and their ancestors) personally, having observed them in the field (and home) many times, but it's not always possible.
One more observation. A wise man once told me - a lot of people are satisfied with mediocre (at best) dogs because of low expectations. This was mentioned here as well. The fact of the matter is most people hunt few days a year and the rest of the time, the dog is a pet. I know people who purchased pointing breeds and made flushers out of them (unintentionally by shooting not pointed birds), they take them to a preserve 1-2 times a year and are completely happy.
Some good points Vom. I think dogs in many ways reflect their owners.
I think that's very true , but I hope I'm nothing like this tough Jack Russell here. - no comments please. :)
Actually there is a connection. My husband tells me I always enjoyed the tough cases ( foster kids, jail clients) and that's why I like training a JRT.
I think dogs do reflect their owners.
Having a gun dog is new to me as I am 2 years into my first dog. I have hunted for years over different dogs but never really payed that much attention because at the end of the day I was just a guest. but now that I have started paying attention, reading more into it and talking with the experienced trainers/owners so I can train my dog wow it's a world in its own.
Its crazy how much and how different it is between breeds, breeders, do's and don'ts, do this don't do that, train this way, no train this way, this breed is better then that breed it makes my head spin. Really it does.
I love reading the more experienced peoples posts, so interesting.
A buddy of mine is looking into another GSP and showed me this kennel. Is this a good selection program the breeder does to get the best dog of his litter?
I think its a bit excessive and from what a few good trainers have taught me(one in particular on this thread which got me started and I thank very much) said not to do, and I can understand why, I feel this breeder could be over looking some great dogs and putting a negative trait into some of the other puppies.
I would love to hear your inputs.
Good observations here.Quote:
Originally Posted by sidelock
In the retriever world it is said.......'you own what you condone'!
I am not a pointer owner. I am a retriever owner but I think conditioning a pup for hunting is probably the same across the board. Timing for various things (bird introduction for example) will be different but the basics should be the same. I see no notes on socialization of the pups (might be omitted) to various stimulus. Without basic socialization skills, the dog is more likely to be intolerant (and possibly aggressive) of a variety of things. It also seems that introduction to anything is done in a manner which breeds alpha dogs which most guys in their hunting career don't need. For instance, if the bird introduction doesn't end up with a puppy running up to the dog, the dog isn't classed as hunting quality. Bird introductions need to be positive and fun and pup might need some encouragement not simply dropped into a cage with a live bird and told "off you go". This process by the kennel doesn't really have a lot of forgiveness to it and if I have learned anything by my hunting companion is that you need to be able to forgive laspes by your hunting buddy because your inadequacies as a trainer. But that is just my opinion, what do I know, these guys are probably very successful at producing high quality gun dogs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Gunner
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Gunner
Never read anything like that before. Interesting . Beautiful dog pics.
I like this , " We also guarantee to replace the dog with a dog of equal or better quality if any genetic defects show up which may adversely affect the dogs ability to perform in the field develop before the age of three years."
A person could get a fine gundog for less than those $$$.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
They would have to, with that selection process. Only the best get the seal of approval.
But even with the gun shyness, I was always under the impression that that is a slow and gradual process, Do you think you could ruin a prospect dog and make it gun shy if not properly introduced.
I told him that should be his next breeder when ready, you know your not getting a dud, plus ya the 3 year guarantee, that's pretty awesome.
But like I was saying the things people say not to do this kennel is doing.
Head spin.
Catching up ... been out of town. Pardon the shotgun post. :)
Benefits of line breeding are demonstrated, but a line of dogs identical in every respect ought to set a warning light flashing re lack of genetic diversity. If you get a serious problem in that line you can't eliminate it without an outcross, and if that breeding now dominates the breed's gene pool.... Well, look at some of the problems that come up in the show ring.Quote:
Originally Posted by sidelock
I would rather see a population of dogs that show great working ability across the board with a lot of variation in size, etc., than see a population of clones.
With all the emphasis we see on pedigrees and titles, I'm so glad to see this ... Paul McGagh, who is one of the leading field cocker breeders in the US, has said essentially the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakezilla
Remember, the only thing two dog trainers can agree on is what a third trainer is doing wrong. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Gunner
This is a fascinating area ... as I understand it, ADHD (more accurately, hyperkenesis) is very rare in dogs. Obviously, you don't want to breed a dog with a genetic disorder and that dog may benefit from being medicated, but there is a risk that medication will become a fashionable solution to training problems in years to come.Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
ADHD is massively overdiagnosed in children these days. My kids (diagnosed ADD) report that a majority of their peers in school have been diagnosed ADD or ADHD and medicated at one time or another. This clearly is a problem, given that ADD and ADHD are supposed to occur at relatively low rates. It's true -- the ADD/ADHD diagnosis and medication has become a convenient way of managing kids in the classroom: sedate them all.
So I would suggest that people who look at field trial dogs and see ADHD may be falling into the same trap.
Simon Gadbois, who does behavioral research on dogs at Dalhousie and trains dogs to detect endangered turtles and snakes for conservation biologists, suggests that the brain chemistry of "high drive" dogs differs fundamentally from that of sedate dogs. The high-drive dogs are governed by dopamines (the state of seeking) and the sedate dogs by the group of brain chemicals released by rewards. So your high-drive dog is difficult to reward and is in a continual state of seeking/hunting. (Gadbois may object to my butchered paraphrase.)
In any case, this is the natural state of those dogs. And the kicker is, these are the dogs he wants to work with in his training program, because these are the dogs that do the job best. These are the dogs field trialers breed. I'd say there is a real risk in manipulating that with medication.
My dog can't turn it off. It's just what he is but I wouldn't go down the doggie Rydalin road. Man/breeders created these dogs so if they aren't a good match then best to avoid them. In this day of information access it's pretty easy to research bloodlines.
[QUOTE=welsh;1003223]Catching up ... been out of town. Pardon the shotgun post. :)
Benefits of line breeding are demonstrated, but a line of dogs identical in every respect ought to set a warning light flashing re lack of genetic diversity. If you get a serious problem in that line you can't eliminate it without an outcross, and if that breeding now dominates the breed's gene pool.... Well, look at some of the problems that come up in the show ring.
I would rather see a population of dogs that show great working ability across the board with a lot of variation in size, etc., than see a population of clones.
I think Ferrell knows a thing or two about breeding, as of last year, Six miller prefix dogs have been inducted to the Field Trial Hall Of Fame, 6 Miller prefix dogs won the grand daddy of them all the National Championship, a three hour endurance stake commonly run under brutal conditions that requires two prior Championship wins just to qualify and if you take away the wins by Shadow Oak Bo in 2013 & 2014, 12 of the last 17 National Champions have Miller sires or dogs in their pedigree. Not to mention the Master himself has accumulated over 1,000 field trial placements.
Don't think he's too worried or concerned about genetic diversity, its there he's just a master at knowing exactly how and when to use it and maintain consistency, that's what sets him apart.
Agreed. One has to remember too that with high powered, field trial bred working dogs they are going to need more work to stay content. Spaniels in general are nutty - mine is definitely a good example of that. He never settles - but I don't think its ADHD - he just needs to keep his mind and body busy. It all depends on the type of dog you work best with. Mine is a bit high powered for my experience level. I would do better with a lower keyed dog. And sometimes (often times) a dog just simply doesn't have what it takes to excel in a competitive field trial environment - no amount of experience or ribbons that the trainer has earned can change that. When working for a person who owns one of those type of dogs its hard if they don't want to tell them that. If it was the trainer's personal dog, it would just be moved on to make room for the next prospective winner.Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
Did Big Gunner post a link to a GSP kennel that the moderators removed or am I missing something here ?.
I feel you took my post as an attack on you. It wasn't. Your evaluation of UK dogs vs north American is concerning though. Luckily there are lots of breeders out there that market dogs to your niche.
Yes they did. They are very strict about any kind of subtle free( on purpose or not), advertising, which is the way it must be. Unfortunately, in this case the whole thread was about that ad so......Fortunately,we are good at changing the subject when needed.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by sidelock
We can now talk about breeding ethics, Ritalin use, censoring or.....
It is very interesting to think that our dogs can be ADHD. For sure we as humans seek to explain certain animal behaviours based on our understanding of the human condition....that's how we rationalize.
I have had many retrievers, almost all high prey drive style dogs. To a dog they have been willing partners to learn and respond and all have been brought up to have an off switch while in the house. Currently I have one male who tries to run across water and has tremendous drive. He is extremely calm in the house. His challenge though is to 'put him in school' while training so that lessons are learned and he is paying attention as a team player. He needs to do his part which means to pay attention while we re working.
I would never think to use a ecollar to put him 'in school' Collar use is specific to lack of effort with known tasks. Taking a cast into the wind would be an example.
Comments have been made about the push to medicate our children. The facts are clear about that. It is my believe that in many of these situations the child's behaviour can be clearly linked to lack of parenting...certainly good, solid parenting is lacking. Many parents feel relieved when a diagnosis is confirmed as it takes them off the hook. I'm sure most understand that the family of drugs like Ritalin are stimulants not sedative in nature. They elevate the threshold for one to attend.
I'd like to think that sound sequential and solid pedagogical programs help people teach dogs the skills they want. No doubt there are better candidates in the 'cookie jar' though and that's where knowing the characteristics of the parents and the tendency to throw such traits comes in.
Before I'd want to confirm an ADHD diagnosis I'd want to see the dog, see your training techniques, how you approach the total learning package for your dog. Lots of questions about how one trains.....
-are you sequential?
-are you informed?
-What's your timing like?
-how do you reinforce the learning/teaching
-how do you maintain current skills?
-how frequently do you train?
-do you teach one thing and test another!!
-how high are your standards and are they consistent? The list goes on.....
One particular seminar I attended had several 'wild childs' in attendance that appeared unfocussed and out of control with their owner. They were 'in school' very quickly by the trainer and consequently were more focussed and learned the intended lesson.
My point in all of this is that we need to take a very close look at the dog's environment and the skills of the trainer before we wish to write off the dog to a medical condition.
It's concerning because they are bred for 2 very different styles of hunting. There are folks out there that play on misconceptions of temperament
Good stuff YD. An answer can come in many forms, glad you've found success.
I do respectfully disagree with your statement about ADHD and parenting. No doubt it can be a genetic(actually chemical) disorder or unbalance; however with over 30 years working with children who are believed or confirmed to have said conditions there is a strong causal relationship with poor parenting and that is quite clear. But remember I didn't say all
Ah now I can go off topic. :)
I taught special needs children/ inmates for about 50 years,(Special Education degree). The argument about medication use has been around forever. A new thing learned over the past 25 years is that it doesn't go away, but continues to affect adult years.
More cases are now diagnosed , because we are better at diagnosing. When I was in public school you just kept failing until 16 and left.
Over the years , I saw MANY children/adults become happy, and functioning well academically due to the proper use of medication - not sedation.
............................
" strong causal relationship with poor parenting " quote
Not in my studying nor experience. It is a genetic disorder, ( Very common for boys born to fathers having Add to also have Add.) Also not caused by laziness, low intelligence nor poor motivation, although continuing to hit your head against a brick wall at school can definitely lead to poor motivation.
http://www.health.com/health/gallery...441463,00.html
other myths:
https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid...poor+parenting
I worked with at risk children and teens for a fair amount of years (though not as many as Sharon) but I do not share the same opinion. Genetics are certainly a factor but parenting or the lack thereof can definitely create the same effects or worse. Anyways back to pointing dogs
Yes I did. Sawbill removed it and sent me a PM. Something about promoting a breeder. I was unaware sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by sidelock
off topic, Sharon..? seriously ? ;) check the title of this thread, LOL it went OT 8 pages ago
and thank you for your insights.
As for the matter at hand - any condition/disease can get overdiagnozed, when you hold a hammer everything looks like a nail;
also the idea that dogs can be diagnosed with AD(H)D is laughable to me, no disrespect YD, but of course I agree there are some crazy ones out there and I literally mean clinically insane. Take for example one 19-th century writer describing his hunting dog, which always acted hyper and ended up killing itself by jumping through a window.
I would have said the same thing 2 days ago Leon. However, YD peaked my interest so I've been doing some reading. HYperkinesis in dogs appears real.
https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=...xGCEUQgQMIGjAA
There is certainly much reading to be done on this topic. You might consider:
[COLOR=#001ba0]Overly critical [COLOR=#001ba0]parenting[COLOR=#001ba0] linked with persistent [COLOR=#001ba0]ADHD[COLOR=#001ba0] in ...https://me.kis.scr.kaspersky-labs.co...rGoodImage.png
[COLOR=#006d21]https://[COLOR=#006d21]www.washingtonpost.com[COLOR=#006d21]/news/to-your-health/wp/2016/02/09/...
In order to characterize a parent's relationship with a ... is a really bad ... there were some children with critical parents who saw their ADHD symptoms ...
Vom...I tend to agree with you that considering ADHD is not how we should be viewing our dogs. I believe certain breeding programs have created some traits that we consider unacceptable with our dogs. My ice breaker from this morning is in his usual spot listening to a good movie tonight. He is not ransacking the house or moving from room to room like he's wired!
High prey drive and the ability to be a strong partner are not mutually exclusive. Those are two of the most important traits with our retrievers.
Simply put it can be very difficult to have tremendous drive all the while being prepared to work closely with the dog's handler. The dog has to be prepared to work with me and trust 'that father knows best' where the bird is...not where he thinks it is.
Strong basics for both children and dogs pay off in future success.
YD, what does the breeder think of the ADHD diagnosis?
YD, I certainly would never consider this a laughable situation. I have seen other high need dogs and regardless of the cause I see the exhibited behaviours. Like children they may exhibit certain symptoms that are common to a diagnosis but whether I would use a certain label remains to be seen.Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
I know many professional trainers and has been said already there can be a huge variety in approaches and skills and education amongst them. The issue for you is that you found someone to help...exactly what you would want.
Is your dog on meds of any type? what's the dosage and application.
As far as the comment about 'breedings on paper'....guess we'd need a crystal ball to go along with the plans to be truly successful but they do afford a strong correlation for what we are looking for.
Let's not hide behind PM's. I am just curious, as I am sure others are, about what the breeder said when you told him that he bred a dog that can't be trained without medication.
I have seen dogs that aren't smart enough to be trained or don't have the drive to carry them through the training process but I have never seen one that had too much energy or drive.
I am not a seasoned trainer, so pls don't make me part of the statistics ;)Quote:
[COLOR=#333333]many people in the dog world especially the seasoned trainers were not aware of the of the possibility or laughed it off
OTOH, IMHO, dogs that don't fit into the mold are often declared 'untrainable' and discarded (in the old days it meant a bullet, now it's off to a "loving home" or a pound). I am glad for you and your pooch, that you figured it out.
"Father knows best where the bird is, not where he thinks he is" With all due respect I totally disagree with that statement. If that was the case, what's the use of having a dog. I'm from a different school and believe that the dog should take you to the birds not the other way around.
I understand from a handler running a bird dog why you would disagree. Putting this comment in context is about sending a retriever to find a bird.....a blind if you will. That was how it was intended, it's actually a saying fairly common on the trial circuit.Quote:
Originally Posted by sidelock
I am not taking anything away from their natural ability to find a bird(nose,range,etc) but rather to focus on their ability to trust and take directions enroute to a known destination. One of the important skills retrievers must have. If you ever attended a retriever trial you would understand the intended context.
This is not about old school approach or not.
Ah, ok.
Welsh "[COLOR=#333333]Remember, the only thing two dog trainers can agree on is what a third trainer is doing wrong. :)"
Very well said, LOLOL That's awesome
I have experienced this first had with people trying to help me with the training of my guy. I appreciate the help but for a new guy like me it sends my head spinning with people telling me one thing then someone else telling me to do the opposite of what I was just told, and I have little experience with training so I'm just lost.
lolololol
U pick a proven program and u stick with it until you know enough to make your own calls
What's troublesome is the implication that hyperkinesis is a common problem in North American springers, which breeders are ignoring. There's no evidence for this.Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
I don't see many people complaining that their dogs are untrainable or that they have to nick them continually with an e-collar to get their attention. And by "many," I mean "any." So clearly, this is not a widespread problem.
Totally agree with your statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
The other thread I started has had 99 views and not a single person claiming hyperkinesis with any evidence/diagnosis.
Nicking a dog continually with an e collar would say wonders about your training!
You said this much better than I.Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh