Where's the moose you say??

Short little story here as to the reality of the north. Plug your ears if you don't like the future we are facing. Took a deer into the butcher in the Sudbury area. Got talking about business and they said how busy they have been. They did 69 moose and only 3 of them were tagged by licensed hunters. Also was told how two other shops did 44 and 48. Long and short of it I felt sick to my stomach after leaving. In a WMU where there are less then 20 tags available and if you take in the 3 surrounding wmus there's less then 60 total it goes to show you just how staggering the problem is.

The FN harvest in the north is out of control and the main reason why are populations are declining to record lows. I don't care if you're purple red yellow white or blue, an abuse of the resource is an abuse and these so called "keepers of the earth" are keeping everything. Garden River FN near the Sault went into a moose yard last winter near ranger lake and shot 19 moose in a couple hours.

The brunt of the changes regarding moose tags and quotas are affecting the average joe while there's absolutely zero co-operation towards a sustainable population by the FN. I have many FN friends and even they are upset about the current system in place and how the system is being played. It's a crock that all this goes on under the disguise of "traditional harvest or treaty rights". If that's the way you wanna spin it then use traditional means and traditional weaponry. The problem is there are thousands of people in this province that hold power and still believe that there are large groups of FN struggling to survive in the wilds and living off the the land. I will agree there are some in the far far north but most are integrated as much as myself and look to hunting and fishing as a hobby and passion rather then a necessity.

The govt/ofah/special interest groups can blame climate change/bears/wolves/harsh winters/ticks but everyone beats around the bush when it comes to the real issue at hand. It's time all parties(govt/ofah/FN/hunters in general) sit down and figure this nonsense out before it's too late. Our children guaranteed won't be hunting moose in the province of Ontario and our generation may see an end to the practise too. It's time for mandatory reporting for everyone, better counts, science based decisions, and a change in everyone's attitudes if the moose is going to continue to roam here.

It's not just Ontario that has issues as I was listening to CBC radio tonight and they were having a discussion about Metis spotlighting moose in Manitoba and the declines there as well.

My post is not intended to bash any group/govt/organization, its to bring awareness to people with their heads in the sand. Time to wake up and take some steps towards a brighter future. If I don't hunt moose ever again I'm fine with it, but it would be nice to show the grandchildren what a moose looks like in real life 😉

150+ sure seems like a lot of animals taken over a short period.
Wonder what a typical season harvest has been as a comparison.
Have they always clobbered that many moose ?

Would be nice to have similar rules for different parties that all try to harvest the same crown resource.
Perhaps these animals were harvested upon FN land.

Well biggamer its sickening for sure! The problem is I don't see anything changing! Its the ones that are taking FULL advantage of their "rights" that are the issue. I believe its the others with the "rights" that would step in and say enough that could help fight the battle! I hear stories of guys with cards in the north actually paying like you and I for licenses and abiding by limits etc but..... And yet our license fees are going up next year and more restrictions for big game hunting opps, its a f$%@#d up system for sure! But it i what it is unfortunately...

Its a shame, at this rate there will be no moose left for our kids. keepers of the earth, my . I remember camping at Grundy Prov Park last summer. Kids in bed and me and my wife enjoying a cold drink at the fire. Its about 1AM and we here gun shots, not saying its the natives and not blaming anyone in particular but it makes you wonder.

This entire country needs a good hard friggin shake!

We're so politically correct and polite that that tail has been wagging the dog for a long time and it's escalating out of control.

At some point the majority has to have more say then the minorities! Wars have never been won with minorities.

I always thought that when a majority won that they'd impose their will and the rest would follow suit, or else.

It's no wonder Trump won in the US. I think the majority reached their breaking point and we as Canadians usually follow suit a few years later.

We're so polite it's sickening. How does our PM praise a dead Cuban dictator???? What's next? Hitler was just a confused, mixed up man and he should be forgiven too?

I have heard similar numbers about the moose harvest/processing in Sudbury as well. I also work with a few FN members and what really burns me is that one of them actually buys a moose license and enters the tag draw. All he's doing there is taking a tag away from the non-FN hunters. I also have a cousin -in-law that has Metis harvest rights. He is also using those rights to his advantage. Where I have a 13 day gun hunt, minus my days that I have to work, giving me 5 days ti hunt this year, he has from September to end of December, I could only hunt bucks, he can take anything. We ended up with a nice 8 point that my partner shot on the fourth day, but if we had doe tags, we would have harvested one or two in the first few days.

With more and more people being considered FN and Metis, with harvest rights, and most who claim Metis being told to apply for full-status FN because the government will upgrade them most of the time, where will the fish and game get any protection to survive and thrive with that kind of pressure?

They don't 'harvest' anything. Its a 'contest' to them. Makes me ill thinking about it.

The last tag and moose we shot in the archery season was on the opening day of archery season. We took it to a butcher nearby that was full and could only cut up moose but no room to freeze and keep so we could fish rest of week up north. He had butchered over 50 and no gun season yet. This fall the local trapper tells me that select group are only recovering moose that were killed near the road and if they ran off too far they would walk away and leave moose. Not sure if this is true, possible or even happening, but I do know we got no tag and saw no moose this fall.

Everyone knows moose are a renewable resource so what's the big deal, take as many as you want, there will be more next year. (what a stupid thought)

That's only the number being taken into the butcher shop.... might as well quadruple it if you want the real number.

This is all sickening. When will these people wake up and realize what they are doing!!!!

I can remember being offered whole moose hanging, for a big price of course, and they were not hiding the fact that they were selling. The locals tell us the MNR will do nothing about it in the area and it is any easy way to make quick cash. And they didn't have one or two. One Country, One Law for all. My thoughts. As far as traditional hunting, handmade recurve bow, no spotlights, no trucks, and go at it.

When buying a pig The abattoir in Massey told me he has processed over 70 moose most were harvested by first nations and was told a lot more will be coming in. Last year well over 100 moose were brought in.

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Originally Posted by rippin_355

They don't 'harvest' anything. Its a 'contest' to them. Makes me ill thinking about it.

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Sort of like the white man and the Bison!

That is really too bad. No wonder I gave up moose hunting many moons ago... :(

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

Sort of like the white man and the Bison!

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You're joking right?

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Originally Posted by Crash2000

I can remember being offered whole moose hanging, for a big price of course, and they were not hiding the fact that they were selling. The locals tell us the MNR will do nothing about it in the area and it is any easy way to make quick cash. And they didn't have one or two. One Country, One Law for all. My thoughts. As far as traditional hunting, handmade recurve bow, no spotlights, no trucks, and go at it.

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If there weren't people buying the moose or fish they wouldn't be doing it. I can't understand the people that will complain about them with with one breath and then smoke their cigarettes and eat the game with the other.

Unfortunately, these stories are common. We hear similar stories from NW Ontario as well. I spoke with a CO two years ago who said they can't even ask a FN if they have seen a moose. He also said he needed approval from Toronto, before he could investigate an offence involving FN. Something needs to change !!

Everybody save your money. Go to newfoundland. Lots moose there still. Oh wait.....i hear the liberals are buying theFN a ferry to go there too. Never mind!!!!

Hamilton.... you're right on. If there wasn't a market they wouldn't kill as much game.

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Originally Posted by redd foxx

Hamilton.... you're right on. If there wasn't a market they wouldn't kill as much game.

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Gotta wonder how many of the customers are northern Ontario residents.

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

Unfortunately, these stories are common. We hear similar stories from NW Ontario as well. I spoke with a CO two years ago who said they can't even ask a FN if they have seen a moose. He also said he needed approval from Toronto, before he could investigate an offence involving FN. Something needs to change !!

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When the OOP stand with their hands in their pockets while FN residents block major rail lines, the MNRF are not going to get involved in illegal moose kills.

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Originally Posted by Foxx

When the OOP stand with their hands in their pockets while FN residents block major rail lines, the MNRF are not going to get involved in illegal moose kills.

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You are right on ! How can the people in the trenches take these issues on, when there is no backing from the Government ? What needs to change is the Government's will to solve a problem they are responsible for creating !!

How do they do it out west or in the USA ?

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Originally Posted by SK33T3R

This entire country needs a good hard friggin shake!

We're so politically correct and polite that that tail has been wagging the dog for a long time and it's escalating out of control.

At some point the majority has to have more say then the minorities! Wars have never been won with minorities.

I always thought that when a majority won that they'd impose their will and the rest would follow suit, or else.

It's no wonder Trump won in the US. I think the majority reached their breaking point and we as Canadians usually follow suit a few years later.

We're so polite it's sickening. How does our PM praise a dead Cuban dictator???? What's next? Hitler was just a confused, mixed up man and he should be forgiven too?

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Hit the nail on the head. the left wing side is who created Trump by forcing their political correct bull down the tax payers throats. It's only a matter of time until Canadians revolt in the same way

Dan

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Originally Posted by myot

Hit the nail on the head. the left wing side is who created Trump by forcing their political correct bull down the tax payers throats. It's only a matter of time until Canadians revolt in the same way
Dan

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Our spineless government wants to be friends and hug everyone. They don't have the fortitude to make the HARD decisions!
I knew parents like that and their children are either on drugs, homeless, or in jail.

The problem I see is that when we reach our breaking point we will either enter into civil war or have terrorists groups right her in our own country. Both sides are equally to blame.

Most of us will be long gone by then - but it's coming!

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Originally Posted by deadeye

Everybody save your money. Go to newfoundland. Lots moose there still.

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That is a good point. The population there is not suffering any decline. Perhaps someone should examine the differences between Newfoundland and Ontario to try and find a potential cause for Ontario's declining numbers.

Contact your local MPP, MNRF Minister and OFAH with your concerns. If you don't bring issues to their attention, well, don't expect anything to get done.

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Originally Posted by delmer

Perhaps someone should examine the differences between Newfoundland and Ontario to try and find a potential cause for Ontario's declining numbers.

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The answer is fairly straight forward. Ontario has almost 14 million people. NFLD has only 530 thousand. Nowhere near the pressure and nowhere near the access.

• Numbering 35,800, about 3% of the Aboriginal identity population in Canada lived in Newfoundland and Labrador in 2011. They made up 7% of the total population of that province. Newfoundland and Labrador had the largest Aboriginal population of all the Atlantic provinces.

By geez boyz some on here would be tellin us the Moose are doomed,doomed, with em numbers or should even be extinct on the Island by now.LOL

Funny I just came across the skin of a calf moose sitting in the middle of a Forest access road in zone 48. I get that the FN can harvest until Jan 15 but why leave the hide so visible. Right beside the road on the way to the municipal landfill. Trying to rub it in perhaps???? Oh and EVERY access road had been driven in the last 2 days by large half tons. Grouse hunting I guess! LOL

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

• Numbering 35,800, about 3% of the Aboriginal identity population in Canada lived in Newfoundland and Labrador in 2011. They made up 7% of the total population of that province. Newfoundland and Labrador had the largest Aboriginal population of all the Atlantic provinces.

By geez boyz some on here would be tellin us the Moose are doomed,doomed, with em numbers or should even be extinct on the Island by now.LOL

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Can you expand your point further ?

35,000 FN in NFLD and Labrador with moose pop est about 115,000
301,000 FN in ONT and moose est to be 92,000

Means Ontario has had 10 times a greater population of FN chasing 80% fewer Moose.
And has had for about the past 80 years or so based on the consensus numbers.

Seems the OP may still be on to something here.
But there must be a myriad of other reasons and variables

Numbers of moose and number of people are pointless really. It's comparing apples to oranges, and unless a person could somehow normalize everything.

population density
Ontario: 14 people per square km
NFLD: 1.4 per sq km
Manitoba: 3.7 per
Quebec: 3.7 per

Then as Sawbill said, even if somehow it could be normalized, is access the same?
in short comparing, either moose numbers, FN numbers, or population.

If I'm not mistaken Manitoba to, is seeing drastic drops. Population density is nowhere near Ontarios, yet still substantially higher than NFLDs.

Everyone's analyzing numbers trying to explain why our game populations are taking the nosedive.

Here's how I analyze it.

We got a bunch of senior MNR policymakers all making big incomes (sunshine list probably) and in line for nice cushy pensions. How do you all like those numbers!
These people all were hired on to manage our resources. From what I've witnessed over the years with cancelled bear hunts, wolf licencing, wolf protection, cormorants, tag allocations, poaching, skyrocketing licence fees, etc etc I'd say the whole bunch should be fired and maybe we hire a bunch of Newfies to turn this ship around.

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Originally Posted by SK33T3R

Everyone's analyzing numbers trying to explain why our game populations are taking the nosedive.

Here's how I analyze it.

We got a bunch of senior MNR policymakers all making big incomes (sunshine list probably) and in line for nice cushy pensions. How do you all like those numbers!
These people all were hired on to manage our resources. From what I've witnessed over the years with cancelled bear hunts, wolf licencing, wolf protection, cormorants, tag allocations, poaching, skyrocketing licence fees, etc etc I'd say the whole bunch should be fired and maybe we hire a bunch of Newfies to turn this ship around.

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Make the positions zero salary, all bonus.
Bonus to be based on number of moose taken by licensed hunters in the season 3 years in the future.

Somewhat, no doubt Skeeter.
Life has taught me though that the world is rarely black or white,normally a shade of grey. Sometimes absolute neutral grey, sometimes light grey (more this than that) and sometimes dark grey (more that, than this).

I think in another thread, maybe it's this one I criticize the MNR for the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. Aka those studying Moose/Whitetails and those studying Wolves, Coyotes. Or maybe its the brain (Senior civil servants and politicians) not knowing what either hand is doing/finding. We know the MNR doesn't receive anywhere near enough funding, to do all the things they are A) expected to do and B) asked to do.

Im "unemployed" and looking for something new to do with life. Bay Street/finance I've had it, so I'm periodically checking things, see what might interest me. There are lots of postings occasionally for roles within the MNR ( most on the biologist side), occasionally senior management, project director types.

For the task and responsibilities required
For the qualifications required
They don't pay much.
That said, thats true of many fields/industrys these days. Saw one posting where besides years of experience, and a lot of repsonsilbity the job required Masters degrees
It paid $50,000

So yes, some imo are stupidly over paid (relative to what everyone else in the world makes)
Some arent

Do agree that many area's within civil service need to be gutted, a lot of that at the management levels. Theres zero accountability (heads don't roll) in cases paid way too much and in cases their performance is brutal (see lately the ministry of transportation).

But ultimately it always starts at the top, if the troopers in the MNR aren't performing, well thats on the generals.

JBen
I know you're correct and I'm just venting. But those $50 grand per year guys are not the ones that make the decisions or put the final stamp on things.

Somewhere at the top is a handful of stampers that consistently get it wrong.
Do we even know who they are. Seems everything is behind closed doors.
So much for democracy, openness, transparency, and all the other catch words these beaurocrats are trained to use to put us to sleep.


We have the richest province in the best country in the world. How the frig did we get to where we are today.

We managed ourselves right here. It's not an environmental disaster or disease. It was management plain and simple.

Like the 3 stooges painting themselves into a corner. That's how I describe the MNR decision makers!

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Originally Posted by DanO

Funny I just came across the skin of a calf moose sitting in the middle of a Forest access road in zone 48. I get that the FN can harvest until Jan 15 but why leave the hide so visible. Right beside the road on the way to the municipal landfill. Trying to rub it in perhaps???? Oh and EVERY access road had been driven in the last 2 days by large half tons. Grouse hunting I guess! LOL

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Q. OK nobody else is asking so what is the proof of the proof as Chretien would say that the said calf was killed by a FN hunter.

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Originally Posted by Horridfiber101

Can you expand your point further ?

35,000 FN in NFLD and Labrador with moose pop est about 115,000
301,000 FN in ONT and moose est to be 92,000

Means Ontario has had 10 times a greater population of FN chasing 80% fewer Moose.
And has had for about the past 80 years or so based on the consensus numbers.

Seems the OP may still be on to something here.
But there must be a myriad of other reasons and variables

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Yes I can expand my point further its simplistic to keep blaming FN for the complete demise even here in Ontario as you say there are so many other reasons and variables.

As a lay person and no expert on Moose the few things I think I know about Newfoundland are part of these variables.

The Island is large with the winter conditions the Moose has evolved to survive in,plenty of snow.
There are not the same number of access roads which reduced hunter opportunity.
I do not believe they have any wolves there or a very limited number.
They don,t have white tailed deer there,so the brain worn is taken out of the equation.
There are 700 Moose/Car accidents a year, I would imagine half the Moose get killed.

These are just some of the things to ponder in relation to comparisons between us and them.Maybe they are very strict on poaching,
maybe there is more enforcement.Hopefully a few from the Island can tell us what they now.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

I do not believe they have any wolves there or a very limited number

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No timber (gray) wolves. Eastern coyote arrived over the ice some time in the 80s and have been island wide since the mid 90s.

I've been around a long time (not bragging) and have hunted most of my life. I see logging access roads built in the 30's and 40's that should have long grown over but are now wide open due to ATV's and off-road machinery of all types. New access roads are built every year.
There is not a moose hunter or camp out there today that doesn't have a battery of 4 x4s or ATVs in their party. Hunters are more affluent, smarter thanks to internet and have more equipment available to them and there's far more of them that what we saw in the past decades. So where can moose go to hide?
Absolutey nowhere!
If you want to see a moose herd returned to Ontario you'll need a moratorium on the hunt (that means everyone) for probably 5 years and then not allow ATV's to access remote areas. This is already done in hunt stressed areas of the States.
Its much easier to blame so-called high priced resource managers (who likely don't even hunt) than us hunters who've taken advantage of technology on a herd that started disappearing in the late 60's -early 70's--coincidently just about the time technology started to show up.

SB you too are right BUT those high priced managers still allocate tag numbers, seasons, calfs, cows, etc etc. In plain words they've been managing. Many of the states have more hunters in them then we do here and in an area 25% less and yet their game populations are flourishing. They have more technology then us and a lot more guns! They have kid hunts, bow hunts, rifle hunts, ML hunts. They have surplus tags at discount rates. How do they do it? Better managed! Their management is not tied to politics. Our overall goals on the gov't side has been to maximize licence revenues and try not to offend any whiners and anti's. After all they need all the revenues to support the whiners and anti's. toss in mass immigration and 1000 other social programs.
We need a Trump. He might be a wacko but I like him. Someone needs to say NO and make a tough call once in a while. Look what we got for provincially and federally. The country is being given away. a little off topic and I really don't care about all the other bullshyt because I could always escape to the woods for some sanity. BUT even this is being taken away!

Those high priced managers do not allocate tags. Their backgrounds may be private industry, they may have been foresters or land planners or fire staff. They manage people, prepare budgets and shovel money and funding to areas of government that they deem needs it the most. Often those priorities are determined by demands of politicians and very vocal and influential lobbyists. They probably don't hunt or fish--they just manage.
Biologists allocate tags. Those are the guys who make well under the pay most miners in Sudbury make or hydro linesmen. Most of the guys I know would like to shut the hunt right down but hunters demand the right to hunt. They push for hunting opportunities--longer seasons, specialized archery seasons, primitive hunt seasons, and on and on.
A good biologist should say KMA to hunters and say come back in 5 years and we'll give out tags then--but he wouldn't have a job for very long. So they do what the public demands.

Now that would be an interesting poll ?

How many of us would be willing to take a few seasons off for the good of the herd ?
I would have no problem personally; would just refocus on quackers for awhile.

-We had two cows in the food plot yesterday and their coats were pretty bad with ticks.
Fewer hunters would give the moose a chance to reproduce in greater numbers.
But I wonder what the solution is for these damn ticks, if global warming is the culprit for not killing off the ticks in the winter

If the moose herd in the states is doing good then our herd should not be down do to ticks/climate change.

Every event, no matter how insignificant it seems at the time impacts a population to some extent. Ribbon rail that railroads now use has upped that kill substantially. Ticks infestations can devastate a herd in that immediate area. We've learned how to hunt calves with more success. More road kill because of higher traffic numbers. Loss of habitat through logging and access. I think the jury is still out on climate change though. All these factors and more add up but its the hunting that has the most impact of all.

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Originally Posted by sawbill

The answer is fairly straight forward. Ontario has almost 14 million people. NFLD has only 530 thousand. Nowhere near the pressure and nowhere near the access.

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Agree no where near the pressure on moose as there has been no such people identified as FN whom were given special harvesting rights...

If you want proof it's a flawed system when the govt intended to recognize there was some FN on Newfoundland they estimated less than 600.. They got over 100,000 applications out of 530k...

Now why would that many people claim to be FN.....

What will happen to the moose heard if these so called FN get status will they have traditional harvesting rights to hunt for moose... But wait werent moose transported to the The rock in the early 70s

So even if some become Recognized as FN how would they have harvesting rights to a species that was not traditionally inhabiting the island..

Ohh and let's not even get started on the fishing... Claiming status sounds like a great way to avoid fish n game laws

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Originally Posted by sawbill

I've been around a long time (not bragging) and have hunted most of my life. I see logging access roads built in the 30's and 40's that should have long grown over but are now wide open due to ATV's and off-road machinery of all types. New access roads are built every year.
There is not a moose hunter or camp out there today that doesn't have a battery of 4 x4s or ATVs in their party. Hunters are more affluent, smarter thanks to internet and have more equipment available to them and there's far more of them that what we saw in the past decades. So where can moose go to hide?
Absolutey nowhere!
If you want to see a moose herd returned to Ontario you'll need a moratorium on the hunt (that means everyone) for probably 5 years and then not allow ATV's to access remote areas. This is already done in hunt stressed areas of the States.
Its much easier to blame so-called high priced resource managers (who likely don't even hunt) than us hunters who've taken advantage of technology on a herd that started disappearing in the late 60's -early 70's--coincidently just about the time technology started to show up.

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Great post I agree 100% again and have also to add this, with the cost of going up to the traditional areas to hunt,hunters with all their pick up trucks and ATV,s on the back have a substantial outlay of money before they even start hunting.With the price of gas I would guess for GTA hunters would be in the $1,000.00 range to say Thunder Bay, along with that the value of a full week off of work which is hard to come by these days and depending on your job your now adding probably another $1,000.00.

So they get home and the wife is asking where,s the beef, there has to be some added pressure here.

I think a 3-5 year moratorium is in order, politically if we did not pay for the Moose license,s it would hopefully sound some alarm bells at Queens Park.

Be interesting to run a poll on here to see what the other hunters think of a moratorium.

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Originally Posted by glen

If the moose herd in the states is doing good then our herd should not be down do to ticks/climate change.

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The herd in Minnesota is in dire shape. I believe they have cancelled their moose hunts.

If some of you recall there was a 5 year moratorium on hunting geese in Ontario. I can't recall the exact conditions or if it was all of Ontario but that worked.
The MNR is controlled by politicians who when in power make the decisions and to them wild game is a renewable resource that generates $ for them. We have to remember the government is here to help us and we have to stop P ing into the wind, cuz we will still get the same results.
I agree to a 5 year no hunting moose for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Q. OK nobody else is asking so what is the proof of the proof as Chretien would say that the said calf was killed by a FN hunter.

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Well it could be a non-FN but then it would have been poaching. It was a very fresh hide! It's an assumption based on the brazen way it was placed (Maximum visibility). The CO didn't even respond to my information. I can accept it being a FN kill (sort of) but I take exception to the disposal of the hide in such a public area.

Because of my age-- 67 -- I would not like a full closure of the moose hunt for 5 years, but our camp doesn't shoot cows or calves so I would support a bull only hunt for a few years. The only problem with this is the outfitters in the north need the income to pay the bills from late summer to the opening of bear hunting in the spring.

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Originally Posted by Foxx

Because of my age-- 67 -- I would not like a full closure of the moose hunt for 5 years, but our camp doesn't shoot cows or calves so I would support a bull only hunt for a few years. The only problem with this is the outfitters in the north need the income to pay the bills from late summer to the opening of bear hunting in the spring.

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I hear you but if something drastic doesn't get done, my son may never see a live moose in this province, never mind be able to hunt one.... As far as income for outfitters go, should not even be considered (very short sighted)...

I say it should be shut down to everyone until populations rebound. How long can we wait before it becomes too late to save our moose herd...

Ontario is such a big beautiful province, who would have thought our moose herd would be lost.

If you want an eye opener get in a plane on a fly in somewhere. The amount of logging and access is "insane". Thousands upon thousands of acres/hectares that very few would have been hunting 40 years ago, are now very accessible.
How many lakes are in trouble, need constant stocking?

Yet every time the MNR closes off a logging road to motorized vehicles, the public blows a gasket. There's a fight right now over the Algonquin Land claim. Those who feel the roads should be closed, temporary bridges taken out, and the ALgonquins who want them left as is. No different than us.
funny that.

I doubt anyone really knows what the cause is, or primary cause. If the MNR could "at least" explain their decisions, the reasoning behind them, in a way that makes sense, where the logic can be seen without the politics. Generate reports on various things, be it numbers of Moose, or Deer, or XYZ..As is, theres no current data that Im aware of. That might help.

Because currently it most certainly appears as though the left hand doesnt know what the right hand is doing, and the brain centre doesnt know what either is doing, or it doesnt listen.

OK,I'll zip up my Nomex suit and fire this off for comment. A 5 year "Bulls only" selective harvest system with a $10 application fee,heavy restrictions for ATV use and total motor vehicle bans in areas where Moose population is the lowest or most at risk in the same manner as western Provinces,return southern Ontario to a 5 day hunt every second year,eliminate all Wolf/Coyote licensing and remove all township wolf/coyote restrictions where they now exist and eliminate ALL non-resident Moose hunters for 5 years.

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Originally Posted by DanO

Well it could be a non-FN but then it would have been poaching. It was a very fresh hide! It's an assumption based on the brazen way it was placed (Maximum visibility). The CO didn't even respond to my information. I can accept it being a FN kill (sort of) but I take exception to the disposal of the hide in such a public area.

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Fair enough Dan.

I,am not in favor of a moratorium unless the FN also do there part to clean up their act in relation to over harvesting because they are still part of the problem and that,s being acknowledged by ethical FN hunters on many forums.

Likely this is broader than an FN issue.

But is there any reason that as a group, they could not report their annual harvest ?
Seems we need to baseline for any success to happen.
I would think that knowing the total harvest in of this resource in any given year would be valuable info for the biologist

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Originally Posted by biggamer

Short little story here as to the reality of the north. Plug your ears if you don't like the future we are facing. Took a deer into the butcher in the Sudbury area. Got talking about business and they said how busy they have been. They did 69 moose and only 3 of them were tagged by licensed hunters. Also was told how two other shops did 44 and 48. Long and short of it I felt sick to my stomach after leaving. In a WMU where there are less then 20 tags available and if you take in the 3 surrounding wmus there's less then 60 total it goes to show you just how staggering the problem is.

The FN harvest in the north is out of control and the main reason why are populations are declining to record lows. I don't care if you're purple red yellow white or blue, an abuse of the resource is an abuse and these so called "keepers of the earth" are keeping everything. Garden River FN near the Sault went into a moose yard last winter near ranger lake and shot 19 moose in a couple hours.

The brunt of the changes regarding moose tags and quotas are affecting the average joe while there's absolutely zero co-operation towards a sustainable population by the FN. I have many FN friends and even they are upset about the current system in place and how the system is being played. It's a crock that all this goes on under the disguise of "traditional harvest or treaty rights". If that's the way you wanna spin it then use traditional means and traditional weaponry. The problem is there are thousands of people in this province that hold power and still believe that there are large groups of FN struggling to survive in the wilds and living off the the land. I will agree there are some in the far far north but most are integrated as much as myself and look to hunting and fishing as a hobby and passion rather then a necessity.

The govt/ofah/special interest groups can blame climate change/bears/wolves/harsh winters/ticks but everyone beats around the bush when it comes to the real issue at hand. It's time all parties(govt/ofah/FN/hunters in general) sit down and figure this nonsense out before it's too late. Our children guaranteed won't be hunting moose in the province of Ontario and our generation may see an end to the practise too. It's time for mandatory reporting for everyone, better counts, science based decisions, and a change in everyone's attitudes if the moose is going to continue to roam here.

It's not just Ontario that has issues as I was listening to CBC radio tonight and they were having a discussion about Metis spotlighting moose in Manitoba and the declines there as well.

My post is not intended to bash any group/govt/organization, its to bring awareness to people with their heads in the sand. Time to wake up and take some steps towards a brighter future. If I don't hunt moose ever again I'm fine with it, but it would be nice to show the grandchildren what a moose looks like in real life 

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i know alll about this and its been happening every year, here is how you bring back to the moose population
quota for native people
mandatory report within 24 hours
shoot as many bears wolf and coyotes you want
no motoried vehicles off main road during hunting not even to retrive anaimal
1 week of riffle and 2 weeks of archery for bulls only
and the most important heavy fines for poaching starting $50000 and up

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

OK,I'll zip up my Nomex suit and fire this off for comment. A 5 year "Bulls only" selective harvest system with a $10 application fee,heavy restrictions for ATV use and total motor vehicle bans in areas where Moose population is the lowest or most at risk in the same manner as western Provinces,return southern Ontario to a 5 day hunt every second year,eliminate all Wolf/Coyote licensing and remove all township wolf/coyote restrictions where they now exist and eliminate ALL non-resident Moose hunters for 5 years.

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Sounds very reasonable to me , can anyone remember when moose season south of Northbay /Sudbury was open only ebry other year ?

From a hunter's standpoint, I think a bull only draw could work, but only if they did it like the elk draw - $10 application fee to apply, and then buy a tag if drawn. What I don't think will work is the reduction in licensing revenue for the MNR for a system like this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by delmer

From a hunter's standpoint, I think a bull only draw could work, but only if they did it like the elk draw - $10 application fee to apply, and then buy a tag if drawn. What I don't think will work is the reduction in licensing revenue for the MNR for a system like this.

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That would really show the Liberals true colors,though,wouldn't it? How could they argue that tag reductions are necessary to let the herd recover,then,whine and bit** that they need the money because they aren't selling tags? They'd certainly be talking out of both sides of their mouths,then,wouldn't they?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

They'd certainly be talking out of both sides of their mouths,then,wouldn't they?

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Yes, but isn't that what the art of politics is all about, telling a targeted group of people what they want to hear?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by delmer

Yes, but isn't that what the art of politics is all about, telling a targeted group of people what they want to hear?

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Yep,it sure is. It's more like peein' on your leg and tellin' you it's raining.LOL

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaycee

Sounds very reasonable to me , can anyone remember when moose season south of Northbay /Sudbury was open only ebry other year ?

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The old timers from our camp near the French River have talked about having to go way north every other year to hunt moose circa 1970.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

That would really show the Liberals true colors,though,wouldn't it? How could they argue that tag reductions are necessary to let the herd recover,then,whine and bit** that they need the money because they aren't selling tags? They'd certainly be talking out of both sides of their mouths,then,wouldn't they?

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It wont be any loss of revenue if there they are going to pp system. Nevermind this useless random draw.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

That would really show the Liberals true colors,though,wouldn't it? How could they argue that tag reductions are necessary to let the herd recover,then,whine and bit** that they need the money because they aren't selling tags? They'd certainly be talking out of both sides of their mouths,then,wouldn't they?

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The ones that make the rules, (down in Queens Park Toronto) probably don't even know there is a problem....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fratri

The ones that make the rules, (down in Queens Park Toronto) probably don't even know there is a problem....

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There all a bunch of citiots. Even if they knew they wouldn't give a flyin' fiddler's ....

Two problems for the moratorium... It would cripple lodges n business in north whom are already in tough...

BUT more importantly when your a group of guys like ours where 9 guys are paying 450$ for one tag... How do you think the MNR would do without all that moose tag revenue..

No management scheme will ever work in this country!

Our problem is we have 4 different sets of rules

The FN rules and self government.

Special rules / government for Quebec.

Special rules for immigrants.

And finally the rules that govern the majority - the rest of us - the majority - the ones that make sacrifices and pay for the first 3 groups. We shoulder all the blame and shoulder the consequences when the other 3 groups get out of line!.

The other 3 groups are gaining in numbers and where does it all stop.

I can see bigger problems down the road because our leaders can't make a hard decision.

Ask any American what his/her nationality is - loud and proud they blurt out American.

Ask any of the groups above and they blurt out FN , French, Syrian/Croation/Italian whatever! Maybe you'll hear Canadian!

Anyway I hope I'm wrong, for my childrens sake!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SK33T3R

No management scheme will ever work in this country!

Our problem is we have 4 different sets of rules

The FN rules and self government.

Special rules / government for Quebec.

Special rules for immigrants.

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As far as I know moose are managed provincially so it would make sense for Quebec to have its own rules. Do immigrants get their own draw, or do they just have harvest rights and don't have to enter the draw like First Nations?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

OK,I'll zip up my Nomex suit and fire this off for comment. A 5 year "Bulls only" selective harvest system with a $10 application fee,heavy restrictions for ATV use and total motor vehicle bans in areas where Moose population is the lowest or most at risk in the same manner as western Provinces,return southern Ontario to a 5 day hunt every second year,eliminate all Wolf/Coyote licensing and remove all township wolf/coyote restrictions where they now exist and eliminate ALL non-resident Moose hunters for 5 years.

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Sounds good but you've ignored the Elephant in the room!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sk33t3r

no management scheme will ever work in this country!

Our problem is we have 4 different sets of rules

the fn rules and self government.

Special rules / government for quebec.

Special rules for immigrants.

And finally the rules that govern the majority - the rest of us - the majority - the ones that make sacrifices and pay for the first 3 groups. We shoulder all the blame and shoulder the consequences when the other 3 groups get out of line!.

The other 3 groups are gaining in numbers and where does it all stop.

I can see bigger problems down the road because our leaders can't make a hard decision.

Ask any american what his/her nationality is - loud and proud they blurt out american.

Ask any of the groups above and they blurt out fn , french, syrian/croation/italian whatever! Maybe you'll hear canadian!

Anyway i hope i'm wrong, for my childrens sake!

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Very well bleepin' said!!!!
As Benjhind asked, "Do immigrants get their own draw or have their own harvest rules?"
I kinda think first nations should be first.
Not all natives go about harvesting as many creatures as they can.
A great many natives do lotsa good work for the environment.
Seems like people are always trying to beat them up....maybe we should go after these, "new comers" who do far worse things to this country than the natives ever will.
Oh.
That's not politically correct so we cannot even have THAT discussion.
...back to our native people, I guess.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha

Very well bleepin' said!!!!
As Benjhind asked, "Do immigrants get their own draw or have their own harvest rules?"
I kinda think first nations should be first.
Not all natives go about harvesting as many creatures as they can.
A great many natives do lotsa good work for the environment.
Seems like people are always trying to beat them up....maybe we should go after these, "new comers" who do far worse things to this country than the natives ever will.
Oh.
That's not politically correct so we cannot even have THAT discussion.
...back to our native people, I guess.

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That's the elephant in the room DanO just mentioned.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

That's the elephant in the room DanO just mentioned.

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Yeah well it's a big, fat, ugly elephant and it just continues to grow in size because we allow it to. It's taking up far too much room in the room as it is. It stinks. It's crap stinks. It needs to be taken out of the room or trained to go sit in the corner and mind its own fn business cuz we are sick of listening to it bellow about its "rights." If the elephant doesn't like its surroundings, it can start walking. We are not holding it in place by force.
I am CANADIAN....and I would proudly stand with the FN people...when push comes to shove we know where the natives stand and who they really are.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha

Yeah well it's a big, fat, ugly elephant and it just continues to grow in size because we allow it to. It's taking up far too much room in the room as it is. It stinks. It's crap stinks. It needs to be taken out of the room or trained to go sit in the corner and mind its own fn business cuz we are sick of listening to it bellow about its "rights." If the elephant doesn't like its surroundings, it can start walking. We are not holding it in place by force.

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Ah,but,we ARE holding them by force in a way. We've made them into an entire society of welfare cases prisoner to the cheque.

Trimmer...I would be happy to see more of my $ go to the FN people than to new comers or to people who are capable of working and choose not to. FN people cut a deal way, way back in the day. We have to honor that deal and we should. A deal is a deal.
I'd rather support FN than fund terrorism or laziness....this country does both whether we do it inadvertantly or not, we are guilty of it.
That is the elephant that I see in the room.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha

Trimmer...I would be happy to see more of my $ go to the FN people than to new comers or to people who are capable of working and choose not to. FN people cut a deal way, way back in the day. We have to honor that deal and we should. A deal is a deal.
I'd rather support FN than fund terrorism or laziness....this country does both whether we do it inadvertantly or not, we are guilty of it.
That is the elephant that I see in the room.

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Agreed,but,the "deal" keeps getting "renegotiated".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Agreed,but,the "deal" keeps getting "renegotiated".

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Of course it does....we haven't even given them everything we agreed to in the first place. FN are gonna just throw their hands in the air, walk away from the table and take what they were promised, by force. They did it in Sauble Beach and near Caledonia.....you can only push a man so far.
There's still 6 miles on either side of the grand river that "we" occupy...for starters.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by benjhind

As far as I know moose are managed provincially so it would make sense for Quebec to have its own rules. Do immigrants get their own draw, or do they just have harvest rights and don't have to enter the draw like First Nations?

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What is the answer to Benjihinds question....do immigrants get their own draw or do they have harvest rights?
Benjihind....do you know the answer because I want to know what it is.
I'm thinking you were kidding about the question because if immigrants really do have their own draw and or harvest rights...well....that's just insanity.
How does an immigrant have any "right" to harvest animals in a country they were not born in?

I was being facetious. I was responding to someone who started yapping about immigrants and Quebec in a thread about FN harvest rights.

I suppose racism wasn't really off-topic.

Once an immigrant or newcomer becomes a Canadian citizen the have all the rights of any other Canadian and that is how it should be , period . Canadian is Canadian, not Canadian level 1 or Canadian level 2 depending how long you have been here. I believe any game animal taken from the wild ,should be reported to the proper authorities, by whom ever removed it, by gun, bow, trap or by car. It is only way to manage the remaining herd.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by benjhind

I was being facetious. I was responding to someone who started yapping about immigrants and Quebec in a thread about FN harvest rights.

I suppose racism wasn't really off-topic.

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Oh Benjihind I thought you were saying that immigrants got to have their own draw and harvests based on whatever hunting laws are in place in their original homeland. I had never read that anywhere and wondered if it was buried information. Lol whew
Then I got to thinking about the word, "immigrant" and realized that unless a person is FN, they could be considered an immigrant.
Geesh....kind of thought provoking really.
Yes I was born here and so was my father but my mother was not.
If I throw that into the equation it opens up a whole new thought pattern.
Discussions like this are good.
It forces people to see new things.
When you're green you grow.
When you're brown you rot.
I wish some FN people would chime in.
I would like to hear from them about what they think.
Do they allot X amount of deer, moose etc per person?
How exactly does this work?
What do they do in terms of herd management?
It sure would be great to hear, first hand.

I think if you asked a FN person they'd tell us that we are all immigrants (or products of them). A couple generations down the road and the present immigrants will be saying the same as us about the new comers of the day.

I am FN and I would say that if you are not FN you are an immigrant. That is neither here nor there, I have issue with the fact that when our ancestral rights were put into place as far as hunting and fishing is concerned we used equipment of that time, as time and equipment evolved the rights haven't evolved to the same extent affording those that take extra privledge the opportunity to do so with modern conviences and it is raping mother earth and our political leaders don't have the courage to address this. It isn't all FN that are the problem but the small perpetrators can do a lot of damage.

ie. Lake Nippissing

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fore Play

I am FN and I would say that if you are not FN you are an immigrant. That is neither here nor there, I have issue with the fact that when our ancestral rights were put into place as far as hunting and fishing is concerned we used equipment of that time, as time and equipment evolved the rights haven't evolved to the same extent affording those that take extra privledge the opportunity to do so with modern conviences and it is raping mother earth and our political leaders don't have the courage to address this. It isn't all FN that are the problem but the small perpetrators can do a lot of damage.

ie. Lake Nippissing

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

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Thank you for responding.
Your input is appreciated.
Good to see a FN person contributing here.
History as, "we" know it, is not always the truth.
There's 2 sides to the story and I believe that, "we" have only ever been taught one, "filtered" side of it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fore Play

I am FN and I would say that if you are not FN you are an immigrant. That is neither here nor there, I have issue with the fact that when our ancestral rights were put into place as far as hunting and fishing is concerned we used equipment of that time, as time and equipment evolved the rights haven't evolved to the same extent affording those that take extra privledge the opportunity to do so with modern conviences and it is raping mother earth and our political leaders don't have the courage to address this. It isn't all FN that are the problem but the small perpetrators can do a lot of damage.


ie. Lake Nippissing

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

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Good points.
I guess it holds, As with any group, its the exception that causes the majority to look bad.

Yeah this is cause for concern no doubt. I do wonder what the "regular" numbers are though, is there somewhere that we can get those figures for the past say ten years? Just wondering.

New member here by the way. Hi all from Southern Ontario (avid Northern Ontario hunter/camper/fisher though).
Have a good one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fore Play

I am FN and I would say that if you are not FN you are an immigrant. That is neither here nor there, I have issue with the fact that when our ancestral rights were put into place as far as hunting and fishing is concerned we used equipment of that time, as time and equipment evolved the rights haven't evolved to the same extent affording those that take extra privledge the opportunity to do so with modern conviences and it is raping mother earth and our political leaders don't have the courage to address this. It isn't all FN that are the problem but the small perpetrators can do a lot of damage.

ie. Lake Nippissing

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

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Very well stated! You're right ..... just because you can doesn't mean you should! Within reason yes but not to the detriment of the resource.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fore Play

I am FN and I would say that if you are not FN you are an immigrant. That is neither here nor there, I have issue with the fact that when our ancestral rights were put into place as far as hunting and fishing is concerned we used equipment of that time, as time and equipment evolved the rights haven't evolved to the same extent affording those that take extra privledge the opportunity to do so with modern conviences and it is raping mother earth and our political leaders don't have the courage to address this. It isn't all FN that are the problem but the small perpetrators can do a lot of damage.

ie. Lake Nippissing

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

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Very well stated. People often forget that just because they can or are allowed to do something, it doesn't mean they should. I understand and respect the treaties signed in the past. I don't agree with taking as much as you want nor taking game out of season. True stewards of the land would know that you must leave a healthy breeding population in order to maintain the resource for all generations.

I don't think there is any coincidence that manitoba numbers are dismal, minnesota is shut down and now ontario is depleting. Maybe there could be some communication and comparison. I'm sure there is a common denominator there. No offence to law abiding natives but I am siding with the idea that too many moose are being taken by non licensed hunters. It would be ideal if all groups could come together for the better of the species. Amazing that in this day in age we still can't communicate and make a clear and just decision for the greater good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tman

I don't think there is any coincidence that manitoba numbers are dismal, minnesota is shut down and now ontario is depleting. Maybe there could be some communication and comparison. I'm sure there is a common denominator there. No offence to law abiding natives but I am siding with the idea that too many moose are being taken by non licensed hunters. It would be ideal if all groups could come together for the better of the species. Amazing that in this day in age we still can't communicate and make a clear and just decision for the greater good.

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Oh,yeah...........if only.....

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Oh,yeah...........if only.....

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Perfect time for organizations such as the OFAH to reach out to the FN,s leadership and git her done.IMHO

Round table discussion with MNR,Biologists, Minister,.........who ever.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Perfect time for organizations such as the OFAH to reach out to the FN,s leadership and git her done.IMHO

Round table discussion with MNR,Biologists, Minister,.........who ever.....

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That sounds like a good plan Gilroy.
Has anyone ever reached out to our FN people like this before?
We need each other right now and we need to work TOGETHER.
I would like to see all of us hunters unite for the good of the animals that we hunt.
Even if that means that I step out of hunting to give the population a chance to increase, if that is what is called for.
We can say, "If the FN don't back off then neither are we."
FN people can say, "It's our right and we shouldn't have to change."
...or we can work together, everybody takes less and gives more to the other side...for the good of the herds.
It certainly would be nice if every one of us came together on this issue.
No finger pointing, no blame...it is what it is....if we were faultless, we wouldn't be where we are today.
ALL of us humans play a part in this.
What can we do that is better, different and more?
I wish more native people on this forum would talk with us.
After reading some posts, if I were native, I would be reluctant to chime in cuz it seems like a great many people start beating them up.
Wouldn't it be better if we started trying to understand, to see things through each others eyes, to have open minds...on both sides?
There's a lot of history that seems to either have been filtered out, forgotten or lost.
Out native people are a great part of Canadian Heritage...too bad it's no longer even being talked about very much :(
I asked 3, "kids" aged 21 and 22 yesterday what they know about our native people.
Answer was, "They live on the res and don't pay tax."
Wow!
....time for a redo of what our kids are being taught in history.

The OFAH can't even get on board with mandatory reporting. They are also the ones that are pushing for more and more access to crown lands that were never accessible before. When logging etc happens they need to make the roads impassable when finished and allow nature to reclaim itself. Our forefathers could cover a couple of kilometres years back, on foot, now a fella can cover 200kms in a day on a four wheeler or side by side. Atvs along with the the other big issues are are huge reason the moose are having issues. I've hunted many places outside of Ontario and you don't dare take an atv or vehicle off of a maintained road. That's what makes these areas great! The term "tread lightly" isn't in the vocabulary of our provincial hunters and game managers. It's lovely to walk in woods without seeing huge ruts and torn up swamps/landscape. Until u experience it you don't know what we are missing here!

A big change of attitude needs to occur or we are doomed to fail...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha

That sounds like a good plan Gilroy.
Has anyone ever reached out to our FN people like this before?
We need each other right now and we need to work TOGETHER.
I would like to see all of us hunters unite for the good of the animals that we hunt.
Even if that means that I step out of hunting to give the population a chance to increase, if that is what is called for.
We can say, "If the FN don't back off then neither are we."
FN people can say, "It's our right and we shouldn't have to change."
...or we can work together, everybody takes less and gives more to the other side...for the good of the herds.
It certainly would be nice if every one of us came together on this issue.
No finger pointing, no blame...it is what it is....if we were faultless, we wouldn't be where we are today.
What can we do that is better, different and more?

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This is not a new issue by any means, talks about this have been going on for many years with absolutely no solution and this is why we are at the point of having our big game animals at a very drastic low point.

Can anyone tell me how the native hunting works?
How many animals can they harvest?
Can the natives hunt year round, don't have seasons like non natives?
I'm trying to understand what is going on.
Being new to this, I am trying to be open minded.
I need to draw my own conclussions based on facts.
We don't have ANY numbers on how many animals the natives harvest?
Do they have those numbers?
I know the natives, "police" themselves...do they have their own people who are "Conservation Officers" or what?
They must have some sort of a plan in place.
We all know that there is a problem.
Why are we waiting for leaders and MNR, OHAF or whoever else to solve the problem for us if we already know that by the time that happens, it will be too late.
Somebody on this forum said that the higher ups do not even hunt...so why are we waiting for paper pushers to solve a problem that WE are creating?
Why don't we TRY to solve it amongst ourselves?
Start a movement.
Extend a hand.
Something like a buddy system between us and the natives.
If I "stand down" is there a native who would take my hand and take that first step with me, together?
Say I can harvest 1 deer/ moose and my native buddy can harvest 5 deer/moose(whatever that number is, I have no idea, just using 5 as an example).
I agree not to harvest 1 buck/bull/cow/ doe whatever and he agrees not to harvest 1 buck/doe/cow/bull whatever.
Together, we just saved 2 animals to help the population.
We could build trust and open up lines of communication that are closed.
Yes....I would still buy my tag...and no I would not cheat and use it and I would not assume my buddy would cheat either. I would consider my tag money as money spent to help population increase.
Would any other hunters who are concerned about population decline be willing to do the same?
I betcha any money...your native hunting buddy would share some of his meat with you.
Any takers?
Imagine if 100 hunters did this?
....gotta start somewhere....imagine if we did it right here..on OOD!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha

Can anyone tell me how the native hunting works?
How many animals can they harvest?
Can the natives hunt year round, don't have seasons like non natives?
I'm trying to understand what is going on.
Being new to this, I am trying to be open minded.
I need to draw my own conclussions based on facts.
We don't have ANY numbers on how many animals the natives harvest?
Do they have those numbers?
I know the natives, "police" themselves...do they have their own people who are "Conservation Officers" or what?
They must have some sort of a plan in place.
We all know that there is a problem.
Why are we waiting for leaders and MNR, OHAF or whoever else to solve the problem for us if we already know that by the time that happens, it will be too late.
Somebody on this forum said that the higher ups do not even hunt...so why are we waiting for paper pushers to solve a problem that WE are creating?
Why don't we TRY to solve it amongst ourselves?
Start a movement.
Extend a hand.
Something like a buddy system between us and the natives.
If I "stand down" is there a native who would take my hand and take that first step with me, together?
Say I can harvest 1 deer/ moose and my native buddy can harvest 5 deer/moose(whatever that number is, I have no idea, just using 5 as an example).
I agree not to harvest 1 buck/bull/cow/ doe whatever and he agrees not to harvest 1 buck/doe/cow/bull whatever.
Together, we just saved 2 animals to help the population.
We could build trust and open up lines of communication that are closed.
Yes....I would still buy my tag...and no I would not cheat and use it and I would not assume my buddy would cheat either. I would consider my tag money as money spent to help population increase.
Would any other hunters who are concerned about population decline be willing to do the same?
I betcha any money...your native hunting buddy would share some of his meat with you.
Any takers?
Imagine if 100 hunters did this?
....gotta start somewhere....imagine if we did it right here..on OOD!

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So all you are saying is give peace a chance?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dythbringer

So all you are saying is give peace a chance?

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Hi Dyth :):)
Yes...long winded old womans version ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha

Can anyone tell me how the native hunting works?
How many animals can they harvest?
Can the natives hunt year round, don't have seasons like non natives?
I'm trying to understand what is going on.
Being new to this, I am trying to be open minded.
I need to draw my own conclussions based on facts.
We don't have ANY numbers on how many animals the natives harvest?
Do they have those numbers?
I know the natives, "police" themselves...do they have their own people who are "Conservation Officers" or what?
They must have some sort of a plan in place.
We all know that there is a problem.
Why are we waiting for leaders and MNR, OHAF or whoever else to solve the problem for us if we already know that by the time that happens, it will be too late.
Somebody on this forum said that the higher ups do not even hunt...so why are we waiting for paper pushers to solve a problem that WE are creating?
Why don't we TRY to solve it amongst ourselves?
Start a movement.
Extend a hand.
Something like a buddy system between us and the natives.
If I "stand down" is there a native who would take my hand and take that first step with me, together?
Say I can harvest 1 deer/ moose and my native buddy can harvest 5 deer/moose(whatever that number is, I have no idea, just using 5 as an example).
I agree not to harvest 1 buck/bull/cow/ doe whatever and he agrees not to harvest 1 buck/doe/cow/bull whatever.
Together, we just saved 2 animals to help the population.
We could build trust and open up lines of communication that are closed.
Yes....I would still buy my tag...and no I would not cheat and use it and I would not assume my buddy would cheat either. I would consider my tag money as money spent to help population increase.
Would any other hunters who are concerned about population decline be willing to do the same?
I betcha any money...your native hunting buddy would share some of his meat with you.
Any takers?
Imagine if 100 hunters did this?
....gotta start somewhere....imagine if we did it right here..on OOD!

---

Oh , if this was an " Utopian " world , there is no such thing!

I have a radical idea. Extend native hunting rights to everyone - don't take away rights from anyone.

That way everyone will be equal and will need to sit at the same table to work out a sensible conservation strategy for everyone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ahuntr300

I have a radical idea. Extend native hunting rights to everyone - don't take away rights from anyone.

That way everyone will be equal and will need to sit at the same table to work out a sensible conservation strategy for everyone.

---

How will increasing everyones harvest limit help increase the population?
Might as well go out right now and kill them all...then there's nothing to fight about.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha

How will increasing everyones harvest limit help increase the population?
Might as well go out right now and kill them all...then there's nothing to fight about.

---

It's more about reducing tags for everyone without including FN.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

It's more about reducing tags for everyone without including FN.

---

Ok.
So.
If it's in the interest of the population, why not?
My neigbour kicks his dog so I kick mine too?
Is that how it goes?
Monkey see.
Monkey do?
The natives (if that's what we think) are killing all the moose/deer/bears whatever and I'm doing my part to help them but it's ok cuz I buy a tag?
Is that what we are dealing with?
Might as well, "get mine" while I can even though I know we are not going to have any moose/deer/bears whatever, left?
...and where are you natives anyway?
We only have 1 guy on here who is native and willing to talk or what?
Without the natives talking with us, we are not going to get anywhere...and that sucks.
Any Six Nations natives?
PM me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha

Ok.
So.
If it's in the interest of the population, why not?
My neigbour kicks his dog so I kick mine too?
Is that how it goes?
Monkey see.
Monkey do?
The natives (if that's what we think) are killing all the moose/deer/bears whatever and I'm doing my part to help them but it's ok cuz I buy a tag?
Is that what we are dealing with?
Might as well, "get mine" while I can even though I know we are not going to have any moose/deer/bears whatever, left?
...and where are you natives anyway?
We only have 1 guy on here who is native and willing to talk or what?
Without the natives talking with us, we are not going to get anywhere...and that sucks.
Any Six Nations natives?
PM me.

---

Now this is just my take on it and I could be wrong but .......

Most Native Americans could careless what we think or would like them to do.
They are not worried about what's in our best interest, they are worried about what's in their best interest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fratri

Now this is just my take on it and I could be wrong but .......

Most Native Americans could careless what we think or would like them to do.
They are not worried about what's in our best interest, they are worried about what's in their best interest.

---

You may be right....with the lack of response from them, it's beginning to look that way.
I'm still hoping that they will chime in....sigh :(

Which side of the FN reps do you want to hear from? Those who are on board for meaningful management or those who aren't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sawbill

Which side of the FN reps do you want to hear from? Those who are on board for meaningful management or those who aren't.

---

The ones that are.
Not much point in talking with people about something they are not interested in doing.
If you aren't part of the solution than you are only part of the existing problem.
Maybe if we talk with the ones that are on board, we can come together and start something that other people might catch onto later.
Change is never going to happen unless we unite. As hunters.
We can't change poachers.
We can't change the past.
We can't change everyones attitude.
....but can't we at least try SOMETHING?

Then what's the point of talking when part of a group do what they want to do anyway--regardless of how it impacts a herd?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sawbill

Then what's the point of talking when part of a group do what they want to do anyway--regardless of how it impacts a herd?

---

50 natives.
50 non natives.
Each side stands down and doesn't harvest 1 animal.
Saves 100 animals.
Yes, there will be those of us and those of them that do what they want to anyway.
The point is that change has begun.
Isn't that is what is required?
So everyone does not help out...does that mean that those of us who would be willing, shouldn't?
I think that we all know that there's gonna be those who dig their heels in and don't give a flyin nuns tail about conservation, on both sides.
Just remove those from the equation cuz the goal is not to change EVERY hunter...the goal is to start with a few.
Looks like NO ONE wants to sacrifice anything cuz, "everbody else isn't."
It's a dead issue.
I might as well just sit back and watch it happen because there's nothing that I can do to change it alone.
Anyone have any ideas that we can ALL agree upon?
I doubt it...so don't even bother trying to make a difference.
We are all too busy standing on opposing sides defending our rights instead of working towards what is right, together.

Change hasn't begun. Negotiations/discussions with FN and harvests have been going on probably long before you were born. Talk, talk, talk............
And the moose herd continues to decline. I don't blame the continued decline on FN. as we're a big part of the problem. But there are a few who take, take, take.

If you dont have any substantial empirical evidence to prove any group is over harvesting I would be careful pointing the finger. The actions of 1% sometimes are blown out of proportion to encompass the entire group and that my friends is called stereotyping! Blaming and complaining doesnt help solve problems but it does perpetuate them. If tags are issued you have the right to apply for them whether you agree or not. If you dont agree don't apply, all you can do is control your own actions not the actions of others.

Change has not begun. Agree.
Sitting here talking and doing absolutely nothing but what we have been doing since before I was born isn't going to bring about change.
Waiting for leaders on both sides to come to an agreement isn't going to work. Leaders on both sides cannot stick to the topic of conservation AS IT APPEARS TODAY.
Too many old wounds get tossed into the talks and somebody walks away, leaving a bigger mess than before.
Can't stick to ONE simple subject.
Population increase for the good of the herd.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
The actions of 1% sometimes are blown out of proportion to encompass the entire group. Agree.
Why isn't there a transparent count on the numbers FN harvest so we can accurately gauge what is going on?
Does ANYBODY have that number?
It's easy to place blame about over harvesting without empherical evidence. Agree.
Simply provide the evidence that over harvesting is not going on and prove everbody wrong.
Dispell the myths, the stigma and the stereotyping.
Someone posted that a 5 year moose ban is in order.
After doing a bit of my own research, that seems like the only fair and sensible approach.
NOBODY touches the herds until their numbers are up.
....in a Utopian world that would happen.

Judging by the number of comments this is a heated topic so I figured I would comtribute my 2 pennies. The moose population in Ontario is done for just give it another 5-6 years. If you want an example see the pickerel fishery in lake Nipissing. Reduced quotas, more and more aggressive slot sizes and yet, natives set gill nets and sell the fish commercially. FN get theirs and everyone gets to pay for the privilege of fishing an empty lake while the MNR "studies" the situation for reduced fish count. Took about 12 years but now non-FN dont bother to fish much. Certainly not like when I was younger.

Before someone jumps on my comments let me state that I'm blaming the MNR specifically, and the federal gov in general for creating two classes of citizens. The only way this ends is with moose on the species at risk list and hunting closed to everyone but FN.

Just got some news .. 2 guys in our group have packed it in.

They both voiced the same sentiments -- the moose herd is F#$*ed !

Tired of being confronted by locals and seeing FN's driving up and down the roads, rifles within reach. Sometimes going in when we're coming out at the end of legal time (for us that is). Funny that we're limited by regulations and we're hunting with bows and for them it's unregulated and seasonless and quotaless and they've got the guns! :confused:

Anyway very few kind words and they're DONE!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha

Change has not begun. Agree.
Sitting here talking and doing absolutely nothing but what we have been doing since before I was born isn't going to bring about change.
Waiting for leaders on both sides to come to an agreement isn't going to work. Leaders on both sides cannot stick to the topic of conservation AS IT APPEARS TODAY.
Too many old wounds get tossed into the talks and somebody walks away, leaving a bigger mess than before.
Can't stick to ONE simple subject.
Population increase for the good of the herd.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
The actions of 1% sometimes are blown out of proportion to encompass the entire group. Agree.
Why isn't there a transparent count on the numbers FN harvest so we can accurately gauge what is going on?
Does ANYBODY have that number?
It's easy to place blame about over harvesting without empherical evidence. Agree.
Simply provide the evidence that over harvesting is not going on and prove everbody wrong.
Dispell the myths, the stigma and the sterotyping.
Someone posted that a 5 year moose ban is in order.
After doing a bit of my own research, that seems like the only fair and sensible approach.
NOBODY touches the herds until their numbers are up.
....in a Utopian world that would happen.

---

All the above questions /statements are doing absolutely "no good " being bashed and thrashed around on this forum, they may get some people thinking, but nothing is done .
You should direct all you questions to those that make the decisions, in Toronto, and especially The Minister Of Natural Resources And Forestry, keep inundating her with letters and suggestions with copies to the various dept. heads .

All these discussions here do absolutely nothing but keep the members riled up and arguing amoung themselves.
I think over the years many have written, myself being one of them, but these letters fall on deaf ears.

Till our Gov. Changes the act or whatever the situation with FN is not going to change.
I personally know of CO's that have charged FN. people under both fishing and hunting regulations , but the charges are always dismissed or when/if they ever do go to court, are thrown out. It's a no win situation.

I am not putting all the blame on FN people as we have bad apples amoung our own , years ago one of the guys from Ohsweken, that worked with our D.U. group,
sad to me ," we are not all bad guys, and you guys are not all good guys " how true he was ,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SK33T3R

Just got some news .. 2 guys in our group have packed it in.

They both voiced the same sentiments -- the moose herd is F#$*ed !

Tired of being confronted by locals and seeing FN's driving up and down the roads, rifles within reach. Sometimes going in when we're coming out at the end of legal time (for us that is). Funny that we're limited by regulations and we're hunting with bows and for them it's unregulated and seasonless and quotaless and they've got the guns! :confused:

Anyway very few kind words and they're DONE!

---

You can't manage the moose numbers or anything for that matter if you don't have the information (numbers being taken by all).... The only thing our government officials are doing is managing time and the moose are running out of that fast.

I should direct my questions to those that make decisions in Toronto, a person who likely does not even hunt?
Shouldn't all of us?
Why would you, Jaycee, tell me to do exactly what you have tried in the past, knowing it does not work?
Hasn't the history of these talks proven to be nothing more than hot wind being blown up everybodys backside?
....but yeah....let's try some more of that cuz we can't even unite amongst ourselves to approach "the other side" without holding daddys hand. We can't do a thing without our leaders....even though we are both large groups of people....we just gotta hold that hand. The hand that withdraws when the going gets tough. Yup....that's the way to get 'er done.
Sounds like we should just walk away from the table, even here, on the forum. Just throw our hands in the air and not try to glean some bit of new knowledge or TRY to understand something from a different perspective.
Members are getting riled up because a person has questions, is being open minded, is not pointing their finger in the direction that you would like (or any direction, for that matter) and trying to learn?
Guess I should not be asking questions about hunting on a hunting forum.
Guess the OP should never have started the thread either.
I should not try to be open minded...better to come out with blazing sarcasm and call everyone a d$ck or a jerk or any of the other names and labels I've seen used on on this forum....cuz THAT does not rile people up and certainly promotes an environment of learning and open discussion.
While scouting today, I came to the conclusion that this moose thing doesn't directly affect my rights.
I don't hunt moose.
I'm not even going to think about it anymore cuz it's a DEAD issue.
I'm gonna sit back and wait to see who wins the finger pointing contest when the killing is done.
While you are busy pointing the finger at each other and saying the government should intervene to save a species that BOTH sides know is being pushed to the brink of extinction in certain areas....keep at it.....you are truly making a difference.
You can both blame the government in the end.
JAYCEE...the word "you" in this post is not specifically yourself. I hear where you are coming from...just not sure of the "tone."
Anyway....leave it to me to be the one standing there, holding the matches, when the firetrucks show up.
That's a "wrap." ;)

Last comment from me on this "angry topic."
Exactly Fratri.
Perfect.

[QUOTE=jaycee;1004849" we are not all bad guys, and you guys are not all good guys " ,[/QUOTE]

When we take a moose out of the scheduled season or take one without having a proper tag, that's illegal.
When a FN does the same, its quite legal.

That's a big difference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sawbill

When we take a moose out of the scheduled season or take one without having a proper tag, that's illegal.
When a FN does the same, its quite legal.

That's a big difference.

---

And there in lies the big problem, how do we get it through our gutless, spineless legislators thick skulls that they are the ones causing the problem by not passing and enforcing a law that treats everyone equally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha

I should direct my questions to those that make decisions in Toronto, a person who likely does not even hunt?
Shouldn't all of us?
Why would you, Jaycee, tell me to do exactly what you have tried in the past, knowing it does not work?
Hasn't the history of these talks proven to be nothing more than hot wind being blown up everybodys backside?
....but yeah....let's try some more of that cuz we can't even unite amongst ourselves to approach "the other side" without holding daddys hand. We can't do a thing without our leaders....even though we are both large groups of people....we just gotta hold that hand. The hand that withdraws when the going gets tough. Yup....that's the way to get 'er done.
Sounds like we should just walk away from the table, even here, on the forum. Just throw our hands in the air and not try to glean some bit of new knowledge or TRY to understand something from a different perspective.
Members are getting riled up because a person has questions, is being open minded, is not pointing their finger in the direction that you would like (or any direction, for that matter) and trying to learn?
Guess I should not be asking questions about hunting on a hunting forum.
Guess the OP should never have started the thread either.
I should not try to be open minded...better to come out with blazing sarcasm and call everyone a d$ck or a jerk or any of the other names and labels I've seen used on on this forum....cuz THAT does not rile people up and certainly promotes an environment of learning and open discussion.
While scouting today, I came to the conclusion that this moose thing doesn't directly affect my rights.
I don't hunt moose.
I'm not even going to think about it anymore cuz it's a DEAD issue.
I'm gonna sit back and wait to see who wins the finger pointing contest when the killing is done.
While you are busy pointing the finger at each other and saying the government should intervene to save a species that BOTH sides know is being pushed to the brink of extinction in certain areas....keep at it.....you are truly making a difference.
You can both blame the government in the end.
JAYCEE...the word "you" in this post is not specifically yourself. I hear where you are coming from...just not sure of the "tone."
Anyway....leave it to me to be the one standing there, holding the matches, when the firetrucks show up.
That's a "wrap." ;)

---

We have all been involved at one time or another , through surveys , questions and giving advice and more, if that is not showing unity, ? and belonging to the different involved organizations to show this unity , I don't know what you expect.

Try writing them from a different perspective, new/young hunter/huntress finding big game stocks depleting and nothing to hunt.

No one is walking away from the table , what do you think that the O.F.A,H.have doing since their inception, sitting on their hands? they have been fighting to get this straightened out for many years on our behalf.There are also many small clubs that are involving themselves in this issue, along with Outfitters who depend on the game being there for their lively hood.

You say it doesn't affect you, as you don't hunt moose , moose is not the only game affected,
a friend of mine , not too far away approached 7 hunters [FN's] on his land that were driving deer out of season , he was told to eff off as they can hunt where they want and whenever, another friend saw lights after dark along the edge of his bush, again this time 6 [FN's] were shooting roosted turkeys out of season , he also was told to eff off as his barn might burn down.
To add insult to injury the next morning he found 11 turkey heads all neatly piled up where he found these guys the night before.

So it does really affect you and all of us , because it is not just moose that are involved.

No one is suggesting throwing hands up in the air , you can find all kinds of information on this and many subjects closely related by using the " search feature " on this forum, there you will find many posts from way back that will keep you reading for some time and at the same time "glean knowledge and get an understanding from a different perspective"

Wow I would not have been able to contain myself thrust into that possitio

Thanks for the advice Jaycee, but I've seen enough already.
I heard you LOUD AND CLEAR the first time.
I said, "It's a wrap."
Quit pulling me if you don't want to be pushed.
If I want to ask questions.
I will.
I will not go and sit in the corner, by myself and flip through pages of old posts and be quiet about it when I do not find the answer to something.
You think I should type the word, "moose" into the forum search bar when looking for answers?
I suggest you try a thing before telling me to do a thing, that, clearly does not work very efficiently.
I did my own research last night thanks to a member who gave me a good link to another site....thus the shift in thought pattern while scouting this morning.
If you think I don't do any research, I do. Sometimes it's just good to talk with others and get more info.
If I want to know something about a thread topic, I can and I WILL, ask the question on this forum.
Right now I do not have any desire to pursue this issue and the matter is dead.
You said my questions just rile the members up.
If you want me to be quiet, I will...when you quit quoting me.
The time to put this to bed is right now.
Before I get riled up ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Noseyarentcha

Thanks for the advice Jaycee, but I've seen enough already.
I heard you LOUD AND CLEAR the first time.
I said, "It's a wrap."
Quit pulling me if you don't want to be pushed.
If I want to ask questions.
I will.
I will not go and sit in the corner, by myself and flip through pages of old posts and be quiet about it when I do not find the answer to something.
You think I should type the word, "moose" into the forum search bar when looking for answers?
I suggest you try a thing before telling me to do a thing, that, clearly does not work very efficiently.
I did my own research last night thanks to a member who gave me a good link to another site....thus the shift in thought pattern while scouting this morning.
If you think I don't do any research, I do. Sometimes it's just good to talk with others and get more info.
If I want to know something about a thread topic, I can and I WILL, ask the question on this forum.
Right now I do not have any desire to pursue this issue and the matter is dead.
You said my questions just rile the members up.
If you want me to be quiet, I will...when you quit quoting me.
The time to put this to bed is right now.
Before I get riled up ;)

---

You know, I'm a little confused.....when you first started posting on this topic, you claimed you were asking questions, you were open-minded and wanted us to all have a discussion. It appears that when the vast majority of forum members didn't chime in, holding virtual hands, singing to give peace a chance, you got frustrated. You got frustrated with forum members who you are new to. Your next couple of posts came off with a different tone, one that sounded cranky and defensive. With all possible due respect, there was no reason to get your back up. Keep reading, keep digging, info is out there:). The forum members have had this discussion many times, and this was pointed out to you. Awesome that you want to be part of the discussion in present day, as everyone should have an opportunity to learn more. But at work when I ask a question and someone tells me where to find the answers, I don't lash out -- I go read the resources and expand my knowledge base, and I also know where to find the answer for next time if I want to revisit the info. It's the whole, "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for life". Letting you know how to find the info, essentially teaching you to fish on this site for the info you're clearly passionate about, is someone's way of enabling you to arm yourself with all the valuable insight that came before you and I. Similarly, if someone has mentioned that this topic has been covered previously on the forum, I've gone and had a look (done my legwork/research) and read what the valuable members of this forum have voiced. The info is all there at my fingertips. I don't expect the forum members to type and retype opinions and information that they may have just posted a week, a month, or a year ago. That info is probably still valid and reliable. Also, chances are someone on the forum may have seen a question and thought, "Oh, not this again....we had an extensive discussion about this exact topic last January" and that member, who may be sitting on valuable insight, may choose not to post the exact same info again. And then who loses? Me perhaps, as well as other members who might be interested in hearing it. But if someone lets me know there is another thread (or ten) on the exact topic I want to discuss? Awesome, I'll go find that! This happens quite frequently on the dog portion of this forum. The topics of food, force fetch, introduction to gun shots, etc are regular topics. I know a few of the regular posters in the dog forum personally, and they have a ton of info. If I know Scott or Jim gave some amazing info on the topic at hand three months ago, I see nothing wrong in mentioning the topic has been discussed and some great info can be found in the older post. The original poster started the thread looking for info, I'm happy to point them in the right direction to find some good stuff without expecting Scott or Jim to repeat themselves and break their fingers typing when they don't have to. Being told the info exists on here already isn't an insult or someone giving you the brush-off -- you said you want the info, they made it faster for you to find it. You say you read and do your own research, that's great. Perhaps another member on this forum doesn't, perhaps they didn't know another thread on the topic existed, perhaps they didn't know the search feature existed. Now, if you don't want to go sit quietly in the corner and read (your words), that's your call -- but I'll be the first to tell you that learning can be supported by reading valuable info by those who came before me (as I stare at a pile of text books on my shelves that were too full of good info to rehome once university was over). If you feel the search feature isn't exhibiting clean and clear functionality, that's a topic to message an administrator on this site over.

Further, having someone suggest that you get involved and write letters to the powers that be isn't something I would take offense to. If I was passionate about a change I want to see in the world, I would do my due dilligence -- I'd write letters and encourage those that are like-minded to write letters as well. If the letters stop, the powers that be will assume that *problem* is no longer important to people and they'll move on to other subjects. If the problem never goes away, if the letters never stop, if the names change but the problem remains the same, then they can't claim they thought the issue either resolved itself or died. They need to know, and the antiquated method of letter writing will, in my opinion, never go out of style. Isn't that what we're doing here? Getting a feel for what matters to us? If you feel that strongly about it, talking about it on a forum won't get you anywhere but 'riled up'. Action speaks louder than words, so while it may only be a letter arriving on someone's desk, it's a piece of the big picture being addressed. Get out there and be passionate, take all that energy, put it on paper, and get it in front of those who make the laws. They need to see new faces and names so they know it isn't only the 'Old Guard' who feels a certain way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BurlyGirl

You know, I'm a little confused.....when you first started posting on this topic, you claimed you were asking questions, you were open-minded and wanted us to all have a discussion. It appears that when the vast majority of forum members didn't chime in, holding virtual hands, singing to give peace a chance, you got frustrated. You got frustrated with forum members who you are new to. Your next couple of posts came off with a different tone, one that sounded cranky and defensive. With all possible due respect, there was no reason to get your back up. Keep reading, keep digging, info is out there:). The forum members have had this discussion many times, and this was pointed out to you. Awesome that you want to be part of the discussion in present day, as everyone should have an opportunity to learn more. But at work when I ask a question and someone tells me where to find the answers, I don't lash out -- I go read the resources and expand my knowledge base, and I also know where to find the answer for next time if I want to revisit the info. It's the whole, "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for life". Letting you know how to find the info, essentially teaching you to fish on this site for the info you're clearly passionate about, is someone's way of enabling you to arm yourself with all the valuable insight that came before you and I. Similarly, if someone has mentioned that this topic has been covered previously on the forum, I've gone and had a look (done my legwork/research) and read what the valuable members of this forum have voiced. The info is all there at my fingertips. I don't expect the forum members to type and retype opinions and information that they may have just posted a week, a month, or a year ago. That info is probably still valid and reliable. Also, chances are someone on the forum may have seen a question and thought, "Oh, not this again....we had an extensive discussion about this exact topic last January" and that member, who may be sitting on valuable insight, may choose not to post the exact same info again. And then who loses? Me perhaps, as well as other members who might be interested in hearing it. But if someone lets me know there is another thread (or ten) on the exact topic I want to discuss? Awesome, I'll go find that! This happens quite frequently on the dog portion of this forum. The topics of food, force fetch, introduction to gun shots, etc are regular topics. I know a few of the regular posters in the dog forum personally, and they have a ton of info. If I know Scott or Jim gave some amazing info on the topic at hand three months ago, I see nothing wrong in mentioning the topic has been discussed and some great info can be found in the older post. The original poster started the thread looking for info, I'm happy to point them in the right direction to find some good stuff without expecting Scott or Jim to repeat themselves and break their fingers typing when they don't have to. Being told the info exists on here already isn't an insult or someone giving you the brush-off -- you said you want the info, they made it faster for you to find it. You say you read and do your own research, that's great. Perhaps another member on this forum doesn't, perhaps they didn't know another thread on the topic existed, perhaps they didn't know the search feature existed. Now, if you don't want to go sit quietly in the corner and read (your words), that's your call -- but I'll be the first to tell you that learning can be supported by reading valuable info by those who came before me (as I stare at a pile of text books on my shelves that were too full of good info to rehome once university was over). If you feel the search feature isn't exhibiting clean and clear functionality, that's a topic to message an administrator on this site over.

Further, having someone suggest that you get involved and write letters to the powers that be isn't something I would take offense to. If I was passionate about a change I want to see in the world, I would do my due dilligence -- I'd write letters and encourage those that are like-minded to write letters as well. If the letters stop, the powers that be will assume that *problem* is no longer important to people and they'll move on to other subjects. If the problem never goes away, if the letters never stop, if the names change but the problem remains the same, then they can't claim they thought the issue either resolved itself or died. They need to know, and the antiquated method of letter writing will, in my opinion, never go out of style. Isn't that what we're doing here? Getting a feel for what matters to us? If you feel that strongly about it, talking about it on a forum won't get you anywhere but 'riled up'. Action speaks louder than words, so while it may only be a letter arriving on someone's desk, it's a piece of the big picture being addressed. Get out there and be passionate, take all that energy, put it on paper, and get it in front of those who make the laws. They need to see new faces and names so they know it isn't only the 'Old Guard' who feels a certain way.

---

Hi Burlygurl:)
Thanks for the late addition to the thread.
In an effort to "not continue the argument", I am going to do exactly what I said was going to do about this thread topic.
Nothing....including reading about it anymore.
It's a dead issue to me and I would rather spend my time learning about species that I actively hunt.
Heading out to hunt coyotes in an hour.
Wish me luck :)

Okay, so this thread alone, 13 pages of discussion, multiple members weighing in....none of us plan on writing the powers that be to remind them there is a problem and the govt should be stepping in and doing something about it? I hear this when talking about the current government (whichever party it is at the time)...you have the power to make your voice heard and to have a hand in putting a party in power... Get out and vote. If you don't vote, then why complain about the current elected party? I feel the same applies here. This is clearly a topic many of us feel should be addressed. Make your voice heard -- send a letter to govt and let them know this is still a problem that needs attention.

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Why isn't there a transparent count on the numbers FN harvest so we can accurately gauge what is going on?
Does ANYBODY have that number?

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Nobody has an accurate count of what the non-native takes either, let alone road kill, predations, starvation, etc.

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Originally Posted by BurlyGirl

Okay, so this thread alone, 13 pages of discussion, multiple members weighing in....none of us plan on writing the powers that be to remind them there is a problem and the govt should be stepping in and doing something about it? I hear this when talking about the current government (whichever party it is at the time)...you have the power to make your voice heard and to have a hand in putting a party in power... Get out and vote. If you don't vote, then why complain about the current elected party? I feel the same applies here. This is clearly a topic many of us feel should be addressed. Make your voice heard -- send a letter to govt and let them know this is still a problem that needs attention.

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How many members does the OFAH have?
Are they the ones that are supposed to represent all Ontario hunters?
What are they doing about this issue and all the other issues?
The FN is going to do what they want, when they want, how they want it done and no one can do anything about it because it is their land.

seen a trailer with 2 bulls on it driving across Manitoulin Island on Thursday evening
take a guess who was driving the truck

Dan

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Originally Posted by myot

seen a trailer with 2 bulls on it driving across Manitoulin Island on Thursday evening
take a guess who was driving the truck

Dan

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Were the MNR conveniently looking the other way?

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Originally Posted by Foxx

Were the MNR conveniently looking the other way?

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the MNR had no problem checking us twice while we are there
these 2 bulls were on an open flatbed trailer with no covering

Dan

The way I see it, you need to vote with your wallet. Do not buy a tag year after year in the hope of winning that stupid lottery. Don't take the trek up north and save $1,000 in one week on fuel and groceries. Once license revenues decline and northern communities take a hit from a reduction in hunting tourism they will notice. No one else is filling the coffers but us hunters.

A general boycott will make them take notice. I did my part this year!

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Originally Posted by impact

The way I see it, you need to vote with your wallet. Do not buy a tag year after year in the hope of winning that stupid lottery. Don't take the trek up north and save $1,000 in one week on fuel and groceries. Once license revenues decline and northern communities take a hit from a reduction in hunting tourism they will notice. No one else is filling the coffers but us hunters.

A general boycott will make them take notice. I did my part this year!

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^^^^^^^
This a 100 times. The only thing government understands is money. B!tch and moan all you want about the situation but if you keep feeding the beast with your $$$$ they have no reason to care about what any of you think.

Does anyone actually think the spring bear hunt came back because of "lobbying". It's back due to bear-human encounters becoming a little too frequent where it matters, 1.5 hour from vote-rich Toronto, and the MNRF not wanting to actually spend $$$ to control (shoot, relocate, tag, etc...) the bears. They don't give a damn about anyone with bear problems in Sudbury, North Bay, New Liskeard, Espanola or anywhere else north of Burks Falls.

I've said this before. We need some undercover guys catching bears and wolves up north and letting them go into southern Ontario south of Canada's Wonderland. Not just 1 or 2 but like 20 or 30 critters. Sure it's illegal but the current actions of the politicians and the MNR is nothing short of criminal anyway.
Just don't relocate the ones with tracking collars on them.. DUH?
You would be amazed at how fast things would change. :rolleye:

Maybe we need to get a fund going to help pay for this. When I think back at all the DU dinners, Wild Turkey, and Elk dinners I attended. I think a bear and wolf relocate fund would get better results.

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Originally Posted by DanO

Very well stated! You're right ..... just because you can doesn't mean you should! Within reason yes but not to the detriment of the resource.

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Keepers of the land or keepers of full freezers full of free meat and walleye