ON Issue #21 - Businesses not coming to or leaving Ontario

Amazon goes to Quebec (over electricity rates)
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...s-than-ontario
. IBM, Bell Canada, Cogeco Data Services and many others have also recently opened data centres in the province.
..
According to statistics provided by Hydro Quebec, large commercial electricity users pay 5.17 cents per kWh in the province, while comparable businesses in Ontario pay around 13 cents per kWh, the highest rate in Canada.



Hydro costs force Kingsville greenhouse to expand outside Ontario
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windso...sses-1.3870512


Why a Leamington greenhouse is investing $200M in Ohio
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windso...ohio-1.2917918

Sadly, I recall all to vividly many of the debates some 2 years ago and 6 years, going as far back as 2010.

Recall other debates about the cost of government as well. Saw today that while they (supporters) no longer deny the wage gap, the instead say the wage gap before benefits is just 7.2%.......compared to private.....Unions... Well golly gee, that makes it all ok. :)

It's not rocket science.
And with Carbon Taxes coming, really don't know what to say anymore.

Maybe, if things were different, times were different. The world was different. aka reality was different "Theres a time and place for everything".

PS with Trump in and likely bringing in changes, protectionist policies, certainly won't be Carbon Taxes, etc, well that to will just add another layer of hurt for business, the economy here. No doubt there will be those who blame capitalist and profits etc. Lol, please.

Toronto company opening U.S. plant because of rising Ontario hydro rates

http://www.680news.com/2016/12/20/to...o-hydro-rates/

Leland Industries, a Toronto-based manufacturer of fasteners says it is opening its new manufacturing facility in the United States because rising energy costs have made Ontario uncompetitive for investment.
...
Nelson says Leland will not invest in Ontario any more because “the costs are just out of sight.”

And he says the company plans a major expansion in production capacity in Illinois.
“This is good news for our company, but bad news for Ontario,” Nelson said Tuesday.
“We’ve prided ourselves that a Canadian manufacturer with the right people, processes, and technologies, can compete with anyone in the world,” he said. “But, we can no longer compete with the escalating energy costs we are seeing here in Ontario.”
Jocelyn Williams Bamford – vice president of Automatic Coating Limited and spokeswoman for the Coalition of Concerned Manufacturers in Ontario – said Leland is one of many smaller and medium-sized Ontario-based manufacturers that are looking to grow and seriously considering investing outside of Ontario.

Ah yes the new carbon tax will see more cross border shopping and fueling up on cheap American gas. Well done Truedough.

Have to hat tip wynne too well done.........

or closing .....
There will be no more banquets, wedding receptions, concerts, trade shows or public meetings at the Delhi Belgian Hall for the foreseeable future.
http://www.simcoereformer.ca/2016/12...-premier-wynne
Today, a sign is posted out front advertising the 30,000-square-foot building for sale. The asking price, according to the realtor’s website, is $899,000. There is also a second sign out front expressing the club’s bitterness over skyrocketing electricity prices and what that has done to the hall’s viability as a community centre.

The sign says: “Hydro One 2016: $49,559. You Wynne, We Lose.”

Some of the hall’s monthly hydro bills this year were as high as $5,700. Even with 1,200 members, the club concluded it can’t go on carrying a burden like this.

I love their sign :)

Wait until they start hanging those signs on GM,Ford,Toyota....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Wait until they start hanging those signs on GM,Ford,Toyota....

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You betcha!
Good point Trimmer.

Wynne couldn't care less. She will dump more hydro shares. Trudough will slip her some money and she will artificially balance the books for about 2 weeks in the election year. The working families coalition will make Patrick Brown look like a cross between Ghengus Khan and Hitler and she will be reelected by the imbeciles who keep voting for her. The Public Service and teachers unions will get fat new contracts and the death spiral will keep circling the bowl.

Wynne how do you sleep at night ..... theme song for Ontario!

https://www.facebook.com/OfficialJRe...9295770829238/ :shades::shades::shades::thumbup::shades:

I was talking to some friends that opened a restaurant in the area about a year ago... they are kind of wishing they hadn't now as the electricity is over $600/month. Now they heat, make up air, water heater and all except the panini press are gas and that runs bout $200 to $300 per month but what does it say when it takes more than $7200 per year just to pay the electricity.

These stories keep coming up more and more...
http://www.manitoulin.ca/2017/01/25/...-prime-factor/

600 more out the door.

http://www.640toronto.com/syn/104/13...eds-of-workers

News of the layoffs comes six weeks after it was announced production of the GMC Terrain would shift to Mexico. Union officials had said earlier this month layoffs at the plant weren’t expected due to the strong success of the Chevy Equinox. Van Boekel now believes they were lied to.

“One hundred percent. Lying their heads off. We could use some of Trump’s politics up here right now,” he said.



I expect it will end up in the US somewhere by summer with Trump's policies.

And we have the hair gel kid flying all over Canada telling everyone it's the previous government fault as to why Canada is doing so badly. He spews the same crap over and over at every town hall he attends.
Of course the production of the GMC Terrain will be built in the U,S because Trump actually cares about the American people.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mosquito

600 more out the door.

http://www.640toronto.com/syn/104/13...eds-of-workers

News of the layoffs comes six weeks after it was announced production of the GMC Terrain would shift to Mexico. Union officials had said earlier this month layoffs at the plant weren’t expected due to the strong success of the Chevy Equinox. Van Boekel now believes they were lied to.

“One hundred percent. Lying their heads off. We could use some of Trump’s politics up here right now,” he said.



I expect it will end up in the US somewhere by summer with Trump's policies.

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Gerry Dias (Unifor Canada Pres.) claims those jobs are going to Mexico and that NAFTA is the worst deal in history for Canadian workers and needs to be re-negotiated. :rolleyes:

The plan was to drive N. A. labor to Mexico with NAFTA, then drive what labor survived to Asia with TPP, where slave labor is legal.

The Clinton scourge strikes again...Perot was right about the giant sucking sound NAFTA would create as the jobs left........

200 more in the news... Trudeau effect is in full effect ....

http://www.insidehalton.com/news-sto...bs-to-be-lost/
Northstar announces closure of Milton plant, 200 jobs to be lost


Nearly 200 people will lose their jobs later this year after Northstar Aerospace announced it’s closing production at its Milton facility.

I honestly think it has more to do with the Wynne government than Trudeau at this point. The Ontario Liberals have cultivated the most hostile corporate/business environment in the history of the province,even worse than the Bob Rae NDP,if you can imagine that. Even the non-union stalwarts like Honda and Toyota are hedging their bets. That ain't good.

Hey Trimmer.
Remember the days, say between 2008 and 2014 when things pertaining to
~The economy
~Jobs
~Number of public servants being hired ( pre 2010)
~Pandering to Unions and the GTA
~etc

Were hotly debated here. And if some weren't um, debating those and related topics, others would say "stop griping" we're sick of all the threads, etc, etc.

Wonder where they have all disappeared to.
I don't a know single person that will admit to voting for this admin. While I agree with you, that currently it's more to do with Queens Park than Ottawa, the ability to look ahead a little, see "the writing on the wall" and which way winds are likely to blow. Thats a skill that many CEOs have, that apparently many here in Ontario don't.

Aka its possible or likely ( imo ) that some decisions being now, could be as a result of said people, boards looking ahead and in effect saying.

Ok,people, we weren't sure if we should stay, or go. However with the Feds blowing their wads, at some point the piper has to be paid and taxes will increase. Things here were already bad enough we were considering finding greener grass, Carbon Taxes are here now. We have Trump making the US a little more attractive while setting off fires at the same time.

Are things here in Ontario (already really bad, making it hard to stay) going to get better or worse than they are today.

Funny, back 2010, Werner, myself, yourself, some others used to say in those debates.
Whose going to to turn out the light when the private sector starts bailing

I think she's going to be booted out by the party. Soon. They want to keep their jobs more than they have any allegiance to her.

51 more jobs going to Florida due to "efficiencies" .... utility costs and taxes? I like Antiguan or Barbados rum best but still it is another 51 families impacted.

http://www.bramptonguardian.com/news...l-brampton-facility-eliminating-51-jobs/

Bacardi Canada will be shutting down and selling its Brampton bottling plant in the coming months, which will end an almost five-decade presence in the city.
...
"Bacardi carefully considered all other options before making this decision, which was necessary due to the changing business environment over many years in Canada and the importance of increasing efficiency to ensure the company's future competitiveness," said the statement.

The company plans to sell the Brampton site and will move to a new office location in the Toronto area. They said the closure won't affect Bacardi supply in Canada.

Two-thirds of Brampton's production will be transferred to the company's facility in Jacksonville, Florida.
...
The Brampton facility produces more than seven million litres of rum for the Canadian market each year. Bacardi Canada has been based in Brampton since 1969.

Bacardi's slogan "Now you can have it all" now has a true succinct meaning.

More companies will fall or leave under carbon taxing and cap and trade. It will only drive fuel and heating pricing higher which has a huge ripple effect across an economy.

~The company plans to sell the Brampton site and will move to a new office location in the Toronto area. They said the closure won't affect Bacardi supply in Canada.

~Meanwhile, the announcement of the closure comes less than a year after Bacardi Canada was awarded a government grant worth hundreds of thousands of dollars to support the plant's operations.

"
nuff" Said.
/looks at the job market these days, especially if you aren't "pedigreed". A world and demand ( to have 3 letters that days are so watered down they've lost their meaning)...created by whom?


over and over and over and over.
And its the wealthy white collar professionals, often with job security and more of TO and the GTA that rarely pay the prices.

Whether it's prices like these, having wind farms ramned down their throats and in their back yards, or even the higher rates/delivery charges the "working" class and so much more, get to pay for their gluttony.

"The welfare state is the oldest con game in the world. First you take people's money away quietly and then you give some of it back to them flamboyantly." Thomas Sowell

Movin on out, yep they're movin on out!

Layoff notices issued for 625 workers at CAMI
http://globalnews.ca/news/3295138/la...rkers-at-cami/
A little more than a month after they learned their jobs were on the line, over 600 workers at the CAMI automotive plant in Ingersoll have received their official layoff notices.

I'm sorry Mosquito,can you help me out. Growing up in the heart of downtown TO, I've never heard of Ingersoll, is that in Eastern, or NE Ontario somewhere?

Maybe somewhere where land taxes are going through the roof ( and I can't imagine a plant closing is going to help with the municipal budget that surely relies on corporate taxation), where Hydro is stupid expensive so I can have all my needs taken care of and quite possibly many of the workers don't have Nat Gas, while I count the bajillions my house is worth and days to retirement...........................

Between Woodstock and London JBen

Hunter John: Thanks

Seems like a good place to talk about jobs more.

Fed gov't on hiring spree and the facts the media is skipping on unemployment changes .... two parts

1) Hiring by Fed
http://www.obj.ca/Local/2017-03-10/a...ive-year-low/1
Locally, the federal government has added 23,200 employees since last July. Some 150,700 Ottawa and Gatineau residents now work for the federal government. That’s the highest level on file with Statistics Canada, which publishes local public administration figures dating back to January 2001.

2) People giving up looking
http://globalnews.ca/news/3301141/ca...-hiring-soars/

Only people actively looking for a job are formally counted as unemployed, so a decrease in the unemployment number can reflect more Canadians finding employment or more Canadians giving up on searching for a job. In last month’s case, it was both, StatsCan said.

Provincially, B.C. saw the strongest growth, with 19,400 jobs added. Ontario, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba saw modest increases, with Ontario’s jobless rate dipping from 6.4 per cent to 6.2 per cent.

Jobs numbers have their uses, but rarely paint a clear picture.
The unemployment rate doesn't take into account part-time either. So maybe over the last 8 years, of the 500,000 that lost jobs, maybe 100,000 found part time work to pay bills....

Nor does it reflect the tens or hundreds of thousands of people who lost good jobs, and now because they have soaring bills and kids to feed, have taken jobs that pay far less.

Ottawa. Is there anything we can glean from that?
Well one one hand no doubt the population has increased a bit, maybe some are needed, maybe not.
We do know theres a cost and we do know that Ottawa like the other capital always votes red.

The Libertarian Plan for business

## DRAFT - UNDER DEVELOPMENT ##

Ontario has everything going for it - abundant natural resources, well educated people, proximity to the largest economy in the world. Yet in spite of these natural advantages, people and companies are fleeing the province for other jurisdictions. The only thing that needs to be changed for Ontario to the most attractive place to work and operate a business is Government policy.

Our theme for our Jobs and the Economy platform is "Make Ontario a Job Magnet".

At present, Government intervention in the economy has passed the tipping point. Ontario is no longer an attractive place for people to work and businesses to locate. In all parts of the province, businesses are closing and people are out of work and facing limited opportunities. Government is the problem. A change from the status quo is needed.

The Ontario Libertarian Party will make Ontario a job magnet!
Here's how:
•we will put in place a sensible electricty policy, our theme for Hydro Rates is "Cut your hydro bill in half".
•we will put in place a sensible Government and Taxation plan, including balance the provincial budget
•we will repeal the job-killing Cap & Trade Carbon Tax
•we will end any Government program and service related to mitigating climate change
•we will end Corporate taxation, of course Corporations will still pay HST
•we end all grants and loans to Corporations and other entities
•we will end mandatory insurance with WSIB
•we will end mandatory registration with the College of Trades

That is how we will make Ontario a job magnet!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hunter John

Between Woodstock and London JBen

---

LOL...he was being humorously sarcastic....

I look at this and think of a close friend of mine.

His father started a business in 1981 in Mississauga ON. Building speakers, and PA type equipment.

In the late 80s and early 90s ( due to the audio boom for car audio etc) they expanded exponentially. In the late 90s they diversified and devoted their production to a core group of products centering around ULC rated PA speakers and related equipment.

In the early 2000s they had more than 14 people employed, and times were good.

In 2007, my friend relocated his business to Arthur ON. Mainly to cut overhead costs, including outrageous rent and hydro costs; after all, now days all he really needs is a facility with a loading dock, and phone and internet; and while he asked staff to relocate with him, none chose to. He then became a two man operation. Paring down production, and making much of his process lean manufacturing.

As of 3 years ago he became a one man operation, with a casual helper to assist with busy periods. The business itself while once a viable entity, employing many, is now more of a cottage business to "pay the bills". He will not relocate again, as he would not see a recovery on those costs. His retirement plan was to sell the business and live off the proceeds, that is no longer an option. This is just a snapshot of Wynne's Ontario. A gradual bleeding out of viable businesses.

And people are surprised by this. I am a public servant in FED. I see the job posting everyday. 4000 to Environment and Climate change alone. That ensures just like Wynne enough PS is installed in the major metropolis to keep this party in power in Fed and Prov with more voters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mosquito

Hunter John: Thanks

Seems like a good place to talk about jobs more.

Fed gov't on hiring spree and the facts the media is skipping on unemployment changes .... two parts

1) Hiring by Fed
http://www.obj.ca/Local/2017-03-10/a...ive-year-low/1
Locally, the federal government has added 23,200 employees since last July. Some 150,700 Ottawa and Gatineau residents now work for the federal government. That’s the highest level on file with Statistics Canada, which publishes local public administration figures dating back to January 2001.

2) People giving up looking
http://globalnews.ca/news/3301141/ca...-hiring-soars/

Only people actively looking for a job are formally counted as unemployed, so a decrease in the unemployment number can reflect more Canadians finding employment or more Canadians giving up on searching for a job. In last month’s case, it was both, StatsCan said.

Provincially, B.C. saw the strongest growth, with 19,400 jobs added. Ontario, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba saw modest increases, with Ontario’s jobless rate dipping from 6.4 per cent to 6.2 per cent.

---

When manufacturing costs Province wide rise, manufactures leave, cut labor and or automate any of which guts the middle class. As manufacturing jobs disappear, service jobs increase, but many aren't qualified. Interesting enough is that many of the jobs in that sector are public service. So people trained in LE, healthcare, engineering, etc. do well, the blue collar workers not so much.

So a decrease in private jobs and increases in Public Service jobs....hmmmm does that sound like a plan? I mean if you want a bigger voting bloc, simply get them all on the Gov. teat.

There's more than just rising provincially driven costs that force companies to relocate. I point the finger at unions demanding higher wages and benefits for their workers. It will always be much cheaper to manufacture in the States or Mexico and for the consumer, to buy the crap that comes from China.

"and for the consumer, to buy the crap that comes from China".

Years ago, say around 2010, I recall many debates about PS/Private. Some people made them about "greener grass", and I recall many times back then pointing out, how at that time Walmart parking lots were full.........................Cause (s)...........and Effect.

Fast forward to today.
With so many people finding it tougher and tougher to enjoy life, whether thats squirrel money for a vacation, a new car, or a home (period) or retirement.
Unions (private and public) will push for more money, more benefits. Sort of understandable right? They see others shopping at Sobeys, and and don't want to have to shop at WT...

The companies essentially have 3 choices.
1) Eat the cost and raise the price of their goods...forcing more people to shop at Walmart
2) Relocate somewhere cheaper
3) Fire them all, and hire people at cheaper cost.

The consumer doesn't have those options with government. There is no Walmart, there is no option not to shop at company X that is rising prices......

Many "believe" the solution is simple, just pay everyone else more.....
And the Hamster on the wheel keeps spinning as inflation keeps things on a keel
Companies hike the price of the widget or service.....
Consumers (those with the money who can afford the "new" cost of X) wonder why it is, nothing has really changed and so they want more.

Im somewhat convinced what we actually need is a fairly prolonged period of deflation. Where a whole bunch of people in many industries........make less... and that in turn lowers the cost of A to Z.......

Would also mean companies.......and government would have more $ to maintain the jobs/cost (overhead) and or actually hire more people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by line052

The Libertarian Plan for business

## DRAFT - UNDER DEVELOPMENT ##

Ontario has everything going for it - abundant natural resources, well educated people, proximity to the largest economy in the world. Yet in spite of these natural advantages, people and companies are fleeing the province for other jurisdictions. The only thing that needs to be changed for Ontario to the most attractive place to work and operate a business is Government policy.

Our theme for our Jobs and the Economy platform is "Make Ontario a Job Magnet".

At present, Government intervention in the economy has passed the tipping point. Ontario is no longer an attractive place for people to work and businesses to locate. In all parts of the province, businesses are closing and people are out of work and facing limited opportunities. Government is the problem. A change from the status quo is needed.

The Ontario Libertarian Party will make Ontario a job magnet!
Here's how:
•we will put in place a sensible electricty policy, our theme for Hydro Rates is "Cut your hydro bill in half".
•we will put in place a sensible Government and Taxation plan, including balance the provincial budget
•we will repeal the job-killing Cap & Trade Carbon Tax
•we will end any Government program and service related to mitigating climate change
•we will end Corporate taxation, of course Corporations will still pay HST
•we end all grants and loans to Corporations and other entities
•we will end mandatory insurance with WSIB
•we will end mandatory registration with the College of Trades

That is how we will make Ontario a job magnet!

---

Sorry but with that plan you will never be in power.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

Sorry but with that plan you will never be in power.

---

Why?????

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sawbill

There's more than just rising provincially driven costs that force companies to relocate. I point the finger at unions demanding higher wages and benefits for their workers. It will always be much cheaper to manufacture in the States or Mexico and for the consumer, to buy the crap that comes from China.

---

The facts show, that states with the 'right to work' laws have the lowest standard of living in the entire U.S. Sure they have jobs, but at what cost? I guess it means the right to be poor, illiterate, have no heath care and be taken advantage of.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sambo

Why?????

---

Most voters want... the gov. to do something about climate change, want corp. to pay taxes ( maybe more than they do now), want workplace insurance for employees, want tradespeople registered with the college of trades, ending grants and loans may close some businesses that employ the workers who vote. A popular misconception is that people want less government but that is not true, some do.... but MOST VOTERS want a cradle to grave, government help-direction, safety net.

Where you live, would you rather..... A) Have a high standard of living along with high taxes . OR..... B) A low standard of living along with low taxes..... Simple question, A or B? .

line052 has my vote. Please keep the good info coming.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

The facts show, that states with the 'right to work' laws have the lowest standard of living in the entire U.S. Sure they have jobs, but at what cost? I guess it means the right to be poor, illiterate, have no heath care and be taken advantage of.

---

Sorry, calling B$

Show me your sources pal. The "facts" seem to be whatever you want them to be to support your messaging.

Compare Wisconsin's standard of living ( Right to work legislation) with Illinois ( No right to work legislation). Both have economies that rely on much of the same influences, and factors.

They both rate almost exactly the same as far as standard of living goes. You want to start comparing state's and their standard of living, using the Southern US? Find the studies that also factor in the overall GDP, and other economic detractors. And please don't use sources cited by unions, or other left wing outlets, because they know they'll be non-partisan right?

Go ahead and make your counter points with support, here's mine:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-...conomic_effect

http://www.bestplaces.net/state/illinois

http://www.bestplaces.net/state/wisconsin

Once the USA is great again maybe people can flock across the border for jobs.

Most voters without public pensions who must invest to fund there retirement aren't really that interested in increasing corporate taxes.
Most voters who work outside of the public service who need to find jobs (most likely with a corporation) aren't really keen on seeing corporate taxes drive jobs out of the province.

Then W.R. you had better get those folks out to vote, because as the way it stands now, most people that DO vote, do not want, 'right to work' legislation here in Ontario, or Canada for that matter. BBD I do not think you will find any states on any of the lists, of the 'best places to live in the world', yet Canada and Ontario and even the hated Toronto are on those lists. That tells you something!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by glen

Once the USA is great again maybe people can flock across the border for jobs.

---

Lots of jobs that earn low wages, to make things they cannot afford to buy, so the bottom line of the company is better. Hopefully , they will then not close up shop, and move to a place with even lower wages and standard of living. How is that working out so far? Would I pay an extra buck or two for a shirt made in Canada.Yes I would, if I knew the extra money was going to the employees, and not the shareholders.

perhaps G, the people who march with Unions um
have self interest in mind and are self centred who despite their claims of being champions of the working class they are anything but?
Why change a good thing...
Forest for the trees.
yeah Unions did a lot of good way back when......Today they are nothing but greedy, self serving, political forces (both Public and private) that hold guns to employers heads...

And incase you haven't noticed. Ontario's population is split roughly 50/50 between
The Haves. Urban centres
Have not. Everyone else
Where have so many jobs been lost?
Where are cost exploding
And much more.....

However the ridings are not equitable. Thus one small pocket controls Queens Park and more.

What really makes me chuckle is despite so much, be it the evidence before your eyes today, be it trends since the 60s which show the middle and working class falling further and further behind. Whats gone up? Si um all those great gains you brag about thanks to Unions. WHERE ARE THEY?

And on and on and on......

"And not the shareholders"
Says the man enjoying retirement thanks to a pension funded by working stiffs and without profits where the funds money is invested, would be kaput.

lol, irony

This is one "company" laying off all kinds of people in well the rest Ontario. See the same occurring in the big stink?
http://saultonline.com/2017/03/sault...rcing-layoffs/

And why are they laying off people?
Rising cost.......

And that is being repeated over and over and over and over all over "the rest of Ontario".
Whether its soaring Hydro, soaring cost....working stiffs are losing their jobs........And worse for small towns that rely on some industry, that means the municipalities tax revenue is taking big hits....

and why?
well because many don't get it.

And with respect to "corporate greed".
What happened this weekend when the news about TD broke?
Well numerous things, not the least of which was shareholders bailing. Maybe a lot of clients bailing to......

hint, hint.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

BBD I do not think you will find any states on any of the lists, of the 'best places to live in the world', yet Canada and Ontario and even the hated Toronto are on those lists. That tells you something!

---

No it doesn't.

Once again, you've made an assertion that has no basis.

50 of the best places to live in the USA, 28 of them are in States that have right to work legislation in place.

http://www.businessinsider.com/us-ne...ustin-texas-49

You want to make an argument, do the research. Remember, you are the one that cited the quality of life vs. Right to work legislation.

Canada has the #2 spot ( used to be #1 under Harper). Canadian cities ranked: Out of the top 25 10 are in Ont, but none of them are Toronto. Last I checked, it ranks 43 out of 219. conspicuously absent are those cities which have long been associated with Organized labour and manufacturing.......

http://www.moneysense.ca/save/financ...2016/image/25/

G, if looking at the US, you can only compare and contrast places within the US as BBD has done. While it's true many of the "best places to live" or "where are the happiest people" studies pretty much always list Canada ahead of the US. The reasons and factors for that are many.

I for one, won't argue that healthcare/education is one contributing factor. I wonder how the US would fare on those indexes if just 50% of the military budget, went instead to one, or the other or both. So no additional tax revenue, just changing where its spent. Then we also have population densities. As bad as its getting here in Southern Ontario........lol...you think that might change the Index?

Re Wages and taxation.
Very few financial planners, economist etc, won't agree it's both. And its widely known that wages have been stagnant for decades.
The answer is no-where as simple as forcing companies to pay more ( Unions), or getting them to (everyone else). As we can see here in Ontario for the past 8-9 years, when cost get to be too much..........

Taxation however is entirely different beast. There waste, theres vote buying ( um the GTA anyone), there's overhead. Similar to people forcing their companies to pay them more.....Um, when was the last time the electorate was successful at forcing any government to reduce taxes......A Union forcing a government to pay more whether it's warranted.......or not.....or even "affordable"?
All the time.

Unions are dinosaurs that need to go the way of the carrier pigeon.
No doubt that will lead to some abuses, set backs in safety etc...And so I see some use for them still, their mandate should be about nothing other than workplace conditions and related etc.

This isn't the dark ages anymore, and as with TD on the weekend..................

Its stagnant wages AND...taxation......
here in Canada, that is driving the working class to its knees ( look outside the GTA) and putting a big gap between the MC and upper MC. The rich are still the rich and the poor are still the poor. and those people you say Unions do so much for? uh-uh, quite the opposite, they are the ones paying the prices.

This is just one that looked at the period 1995 onwards...Google it ( SW&Tx) and you will find hundreds of studies and it goes back to when?

PET and when Unions were having their time in the sun ( the 60s and 70s).
http://www.macleans.ca/economy/econo...s-is-doing-so/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by line052

The Libertarian Plan for business

## DRAFT - UNDER DEVELOPMENT ##

Ontario has everything going for it - abundant natural resources, well educated people, proximity to the largest economy in the world. Yet in spite of these natural advantages, people and companies are fleeing the province for other jurisdictions. The only thing that needs to be changed for Ontario to the most attractive place to work and operate a business is Government policy.

Our theme for our Jobs and the Economy platform is "Make Ontario a Job Magnet".

At present, Government intervention in the economy has passed the tipping point. Ontario is no longer an attractive place for people to work and businesses to locate. In all parts of the province, businesses are closing and people are out of work and facing limited opportunities. Government is the problem. A change from the status quo is needed.

The Ontario Libertarian Party will make Ontario a job magnet!
Here's how:
•we will put in place a sensible electricty policy, our theme for Hydro Rates is "Cut your hydro bill in half".
•we will put in place a sensible Government and Taxation plan, including balance the provincial budget
•we will repeal the job-killing Cap & Trade Carbon Tax
•we will end any Government program and service related to mitigating climate change
•we will end Corporate taxation, of course Corporations will still pay HST
•we end all grants and loans to Corporations and other entities
•we will end mandatory insurance with WSIB
•we will end mandatory registration with the College of Trades

That is how we will make Ontario a job magnet!

---

I have some strong conservative beliefs but I say No Thanks to the Libertarian platform if this is it.
"Cut my hydro bill in half"! So my kids can pay for it six times over ?
Passing things on to the next generation needs to stop. Balanced budgets should be a requirement, or at least a limit of how many years in a row it can go on.

There are too many issues with the Libertarian "ideas" for me to vote for them.

But back to more of the usual.



Ontario manufacturers eye greener pastures stateside as hydro rates go through the roof
http://business.financialpost.com/ne...rough-the-roof
Other businesses are making similar calculations. City of Toronto statistics show the city has lost 20 per cent of its manufacturing jobs in the past decade.

Same could be said with any party really. I was a pretty big fan of Harpers, but really only his economic policies ( and foreign policy to a degree). But there was a lot, not to like about him as well. Same could definitely be said of Hudak, but people let that get in the way of doing the right thing, morals and more. And as a result huge prices are being paid by one heck of a lot of people ( mainly those outside the GTA and to a lesser extent Public Service, where job security and futures are anything but guaranteed).

There are parts of their platform I like, some I don't. I have actually considered joining, and possibly throwing my name in the hat as well. I'm not one that waste my energy on dead ends though. Even if I were to win a seat...How effective has Elizabeth may and the green party been????????? No offence Line-oh, I still applaud your decision.
:)

Problem I have, is even if I fully subscribed if I don't think the province or country is heading in the right direction and really want Wynne, or JT out....A vote for them, could mean 4 more years of....Gerald Butts or Ontario in the toilet.

We so desperately need electoral reform here, to proportional, it's not funny. Would certainly solve all of Ontario's problems in an instant. Instantly solve the lock on QP Liberals have. Union support and vote buying for the GTA would be a thing of the past really. Would mean the North no matter who they vote for ( historically the NDP because just as the Liberals have ignored everyone else making sure PS and the GTA are happy, the North feels the same about both the Cons and Liberals). Well they would have about 20-30% of the seats in the house and those seats would count...Right now and for the past 50 years, the NDP have just been good for sound bytes in the evening news...

Federally, it's the same, just that the scales are much larger, so the weight that "key ridings", or "swing ridings" have is greatly watered down. In essence, provincially the GTA and Unions having been bought own Queens Park. But federally it's not enough for the Liberals to buy the GTA or Unions...Likewise it's not enough for the Cons to buy Oil and ALTA...

With first past, what matters is the ridings. Win the riding, win the most ridings. Mathematically it is entirely possible come next year, Brown could win the majority of the vote, by a wide margin. And still Ms Wynne could win...Thanks again to the 416, 905 and Unions...Have we all noticed how she's taking care of teachers right now, so theres no "arguments" next year.....500million for them last year to. But rural Ontario?


Change it proportional and if the Libertarians win 5% or 10% of the vote, they will have 5% or 10% of the seats and then.............the voices count.....

Not a big fan of the Sun, but every now and then they simply call spades, spades.
For the last month or two polls have consistently shown essentially the same things. Despite abysmal personal approval ratings (14%), the 416 is still going to vote for her. Of the 22 seats in the 416, 19 of them despite oh so much are still a lock. She's lost a lot of support in the 905 but thats kind of fair weather, here today, gone tomorrow, maybe back by next year.

Not sure how some can sleep at night, oh sure life if your in the GTA while it might be getting a little worse, the devastation and utter ignoring of everything outside the gta and those that get taken of, is just, like the RE market.
/nuts

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/03/17...n-toronto-poll

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

There are parts of their platform I like, some I don't. I have actually considered joining, and possibly throwing my name in the hat as well. I'm not one that waste my energy on dead ends though. Even if I were to win a seat...How effective has Elizabeth may and the green party been????????? No offence Line-oh, I still applaud your decision.
:)

Problem I have, is even if I fully subscribed if I don't think the province or country is heading in the right direction and really want Wynne, or JT out....A vote for them, could mean 4 more years of....Gerald Butts or Ontario in the toilet.

---

The best way the Libertarian party could have an influence right now in reality is to throw their weight behind the good Conservative candidates running. Let them go all out in by-elections where vote splitting on the right won't end up with an Alberta like decision * with the Liberals or NDP (given W.'s popularity) in power. A vote for them in a main election is just a wasted vote and hope for the left.

* 700,000+ for Wildrose and Conservatives, about 600,000 for NDP.


As for vote representational I think we will just end up seeing Liberal/NDP coalitions that will gut and ruin Canada, we will never see a Conservative majority until so much damage is done that even Union reps are calling for good government. Quebec, Toronto and BC would skew things even more I think, the rest of Canada wouldn't even count when you look at the totals, that and WHO actually sits, some party picked suckup or the locally picked representative. Unlike the Liberals ** in most cases the Conservatives do atleast allow some local selection of candidates.


** Liberal blackballing of Pro-life candidates, post dating registrations ....
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...-open-nor-fair
She said more than 2,000 people she has registered as Liberals are considered ineligible because the party retroactively set the registration cut-off date for Feb. 14 — the day before she started entering names into the system.

Ng’s campaign has said it learned of the deadline on Feb. 20, the same as everyone else, and also lost out on registering hundreds of supporters.



Until business see a benefit and stability they will look elsewhere (if they are as smart as I think most are) and we won't see that with carbon taxes, hidden taxes, electricity rates increasing ......

as per article.
http://business.financialpost.com/ne...rough-the-roof
"Ontario today has some of the highest and that has many industrial companies planning to move at least some operations to the United States."

Agreed, but the alternative in the immediate future is worse. Just look at what has and is occurring in Ontario.
Its made a joke of democracy, and the prices being paid by those seats don't matter.............

Chinese proverb...an unhooked fish has trouble understanding one that is.

Many PS workers and retirees have theirs and couldn't care less about anyone else that happens to be struggling(unless of course they are outside Canada) or are simply oblivious to the real world.

No way they would ever vote for anyone outside of the cookie cutter liberal socialist.

That's not exactly correct.
I'm PS and retired yet I still have taxes to pay, face abysmal heating, hydro costs and excessive gasoline costs in northern Ontario. I have 2 kids and I care about their future and would never in my wildest dreams vote Liberal or NDP. Most of the guys I worked with are in the same boat.
A big part of the problem is that younger couples are far more concerned with meeting monthly payments and raising their families and don't have the time or interest in following politics. Only after I got older did I realize how important it was to stay tuned to the issues.

A big part of the problem is that younger couples are far more concerned with meeting monthly payments and raising their families and don't have the time or interest in following politics. Only after I got older did I realize how important it was to stay tuned to the issues.

Which really describes the GTA, except for them they don't see what is occurring everywhere else. Self centred or self absorbed, and thus the Liberals go out f their way to keep them happy. The problem with PS, is the Unions, and while it's similar, it's not quite as pronounced.

I know a lot of Nurses, teachers, cops and FF, personally. Friends and family, of them I would say there only 2 that follow the Union drum religiously. My one Aunt slams the Liberals far more than I do. Mind you she lives in rural Ontario. Another friend is actually pretty high up in OPSEU. She to, blast the Liberals and has for years. Where "we" differ politically is she marches to the union drum blindly s many others do, and is dyed in wool NDP. To her, Smokey is god, solidarity is everything......who cares what it does or means to "everyone" else..

OPSEU
Not all Public Servants make seriously good money (relative to the tax payer, which determines affordability) on top of benefits that compared to the tax base are just unrealistic. Like any corporation theres the swinging dinks, managers and district supervisors, stars and pets and somewhere down the food chain, the peons, or as we referred to them at work. Monkeys on the treadmill. Nurses for example don't make unreasonable salaries on top of everything else. Not compared to working stiffs of the world, aka the tax base, and thus "affordability". Do public servants in Mexico make 100,000/year with gold plated benefits? Obviously not. Why not? Screw mexico, do those in say NFLD.......No? Why not?

And I dare say, given the tens of thousands of them being let go, everywhere outside the GTA......Id be surprised if many vote for Wynne.............

As for politics I was in my early 30s when I started following closely. But that, was likely due more to my job where economic and political news was force fed to us. And so at a young age, I saw how closely just everything is intertwined. Many believe politics don't matter, they don't "really" affect our everyday lives. If theres any silver lining in the devastation throughout Ontario outside the 905, maybe hopefully

It's a wake up call,
and many people now see just how much it does matter. Even the RE situation throughout now, most of South Central Ontario is in part or large part, due to political decisions made years ago, and currently.

It's a shame it's had to come to this, for the GTA to see they aren't the only people in province. But just with the cancellation of the Spring Bear Hunt. Most people ( meaning hunters and anyone that lived North of say Barrie) knew, nothing would change until bears became problems in cottage country, some started showing up in Oakville, Pickering, lots in Uxbridge etc.

Nimbyism.

A small store gets a $7,000 bill and closes ..... think how much traffic it would take a store that size to stay open and have money left over for paying themselves.

http://www.recorder.ca/2017/03/24/at...at-queens-park

Clark told the legislature on Tuesday that Swan’s operated for 47 years, surviving a major fire and running the business through the terms of eight premiers, but not the ninth.

“On Friday, heartbroken owner Karen Swan turned out the lights for the last time,” Clark said during Question Period. “It wasn’t the lack of customers that spelled the end for Swan’s; it was the crippling cost of hydro, culminating in last month’s outrageous $7,000 bill.”

Just curious.

I hope by now most people have seen enough or read enough to understand that throughout Ontario, with only a couple exceptions people and business are being crushed. In some cases with crippling effects. Its one thing for a small family run to shutter its doors, it another thing when that business is relied on to support the local area. When a couple hundred people lose their jobs in an area of just a few thousand, well thats going to impact the town ( less tax revenue), its going to affect retailers ( customers without jobs stop buying things), it's going to impact waiters and waitresses ( few customers and smaller tips)...Its not like say a big city....And it starts a death spiral, that while it may be slow is inevitable. Fewer and fewer jobs, more and more leave for greener pastures, less and less tax revenue for the town/municipality.....

We all know that Hydro rates are higher in rural Ontario, we all know delivery charges are insane in those areas. And we all know why that is....Feeding the beast....And in some ways in her ( ms Wynnes ) defence she has points. Hydro has been ignored ( for lack of better words) for 30-40 years.....while the beast really started growing.

Solutions that won't cost money?

None.
******

The province is up to it's eyeballs in debt.
With a list of problems, all legitimate, as long as our arms.

Sure we ( more specifically they at QP) can probably find ways to save a bunch of money each year.
Will that be enough to fix just a couple of the problems?
lol.

Increase GDP?
Yep, that will help a lot.
Try to do that by lowering corporate taxes across the board (rather than targeted "corporate wealth fare"). Might help, will. But that means less tax revenue, and there are a number of problems screaming for help...things that are going to take money....lots of it, nor will just boosting the GTA help. Thats "part" of the problem and at this point.......In other words,........

Spend billions on infrastructure in area's that have been ignored? Well they are finally starting (way too late and it's going to take years) and in order to help pay for some of that, Ms Wynne is selling off Hydro One which no-one wants to do.....understandly. So where does the money for that come from?


Last I checked healthcare is a mess, wait times in emergency rooms are nuts, people have to wait month and months to see specialist, some actually die before they get X. Many are now going to the US at their own personal expense for treatment. Because its faster and often better.

Nurses being let go as the province funnels money away from places where population growth is stagnant or dwindling to um, places where it's exploding. Just 2 weeks ago the Hospital in Sault Saint Marie announced layoffs due to mounting hydro cost. The 3 big hospitals on University avenue, (just those 3) while they haven't had to start letting people go "yet", are also reporting huge upticks in Hydro cost.........Lucky them they have enough $$ to avoid having to let Nurses go.......for now...

And theres far more than that, thats going to need money and lots of it. Doing things that have been ignored for way too long.

Take on a lot more debt?

So the curiosity in me is wondering what people are willing to do.
This admin has not only screwed so many things up, and some so badly (hydro) the cost are near catastrophic, even to the point we have a new buzzword where hundreds of thousands are having to choose between running Hydro or eating......How nice of Ms Wynne to find $100,000,00 to try and entice Nat gas companies to spend billions start laying pipe..................Nowhere near enough and 10-15 years too late.......and theres far more to be done for areas getting crushed...

Me, Im nowhere near smart enough to figure that out how we can hope to dig out of the hole we are in, when first we are backed so far into a corner (over 300 billion in debt)....................

Still waiting to see Patrick Browns solution for just the utter disaster Hydro is.
the NDPs solution while it sounds nice, it too will cost a fortune.

Funny thing about history is it tends to repeat itself.
A lot of lessons in the fall of the Roman Empire. Taxing the farmers, etc etc to the point area's outside Rome itself became ghost towns, and ultimately and eventuality the upper class, nobility to started leaving for greener pastures to ultimately it's collapse. 400 years in the making that was.
http://www.history.com/news/history-...-why-rome-fell

I watched some of the CBC and the spin is as to be expected.... great news,lowest rates .... blah blah... yawn

http://business.financialpost.com/ne...lmost-a-decade
Canada’s wage gains fall to record lows as jobs run stalls

Canada’s unemployment rate fell to 6.5 per cent, the lowest since October 2008, but this reflects the departure of 45,500 people from the labour force. About half of those were youth, meaning many young people looking for work have stopped looking.

The nation lost 31,200 full-time jobs, and gained 34,300 part-time jobs during the month. All the job gains were self-employed and public sector. Canada lost 50,500 jobs in the private sector.

Something is not sustainable if the jobs are public and self employed, where is the funding going to come from to pay for all the public jobs created, self employed and part time are not going to fund a hell of a lot.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa...ille-1.4129366

Procter & Gamble to close Brockville, Ont. plant
Nearly 500 employees to be laid off as company moves production to West Virginia

The city of Brockville, Ont., is losing its largest industrial employer, a "significant" part of its economy and nearly 500 well-paid manufacturing positions, said Mayor David Henderson, as Procter & Gamble announced today the closure of the plant.

Employees received the news at a meeting Wednesday morning at the plant, which manufactures Swiffer dusters, fabric softeners and Tide-to-go detergent pens.

The plant will close permanently in late 2020 or early 2021 and move production to a West Virginia mega-plant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mosquito

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa...ille-1.4129366

Procter & Gamble to close Brockville, Ont. plant
Nearly 500 employees to be laid off as company moves production to West Virginia

The city of Brockville, Ont., is losing its largest industrial employer, a "significant" part of its economy and nearly 500 well-paid manufacturing positions, said Mayor David Henderson, as Procter & Gamble announced today the closure of the plant.

Employees received the news at a meeting Wednesday morning at the plant, which manufactures Swiffer dusters, fabric softeners and Tide-to-go detergent pens.

The plant will close permanently in late 2020 or early 2021 and move production to a West Virginia mega-plant.

---

Yeah I heard that this morning on CBC2 94.1 FM. Not surprised anymore, jobs were leaving Ontario since lIbtards got the power.

When even the windmill companies are leaving.... to me this is actually one of the companies that has had too much work... but considering the number of windmills they want to plague Ontario with ...



http://london.ctvnews.ca/siemens-pla...018-1.3507839#

More than 200 workers at Tillsonburg’s Siemens plant are out of a job as of today as the plant announced it will be closing by 2018.

More job losses will be coming as the plant gets closer to it's closing date.

Siemens Gamesa Renewable Energy announced Tuesday morning that its turbine manufacturing plant in Tillsonburg will close by early 2018.

...

The company blamed the closure on an increasingly competitive global energy market, saying the plan to build “significant larger blades” that the TIllsonburg plant can not produce at this time.
[/I]



Just how big are they going to make these stupid things, it already takes about 20 years to get to their carbon footprint for manufacturing .... are they aiming for 40?


Let's see how the billions spent on windmills are doing ...
http://live.gridwatch.ca/home-page.html
As of right now Niagara Falls (Beck 1 and Beck 2) are producing 370 and 1316 Mw ....

and ALL of Ontario's windmills are at 1.9% or 379 Mw ..... So if Beck 2 was running at capacity you could eliminate all the windmills ... Hydro power has 1,900 Mw's of unused capacity at this time.... or about double the max I have seen wind generate and 6X what the windmills are producing right now.

Well let's see what Kalamity Kate is queen over and how it affect businesses.......

Oppressive regs...Turned me off from investing in ON. I doubt I'm alone.

High Energy...........Not conducive to profitable endeavors and not a controllable overhead item.

WSIB......................Ridiculous percentages and in some types of businesses, that % relates to the COMPLETE CONTRACT not just the labor portion.

Minimum Wage philosophy......Some jobs were never meant to be careers. Obviously Orville doesn't get it.

Rent control......What an idiot. Quit approving condo/apt construction, most people don't want to live in them instead of single family homes. She has driven up Home prices by trying to get more tax money /acre of TO with high rises and created a housing shortages which drives the new home/existing home price thru the roof, no pun intended.

Rent control freezes people in place in old (affordable) rentals and that that same rent control prevents the landlord from making a profit in order to keep up the maintenance. Seems the PC let the NDP pressure them into that crap once before.

If you're not PS you "ain't" making money easily.

Procter & Gamble to close Brockville, Ont. plant
Nearly 500 employees to be laid off as company moves production to West Virginia
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa...ille-1.4129366
The city of Brockville, Ont., is losing its largest industrial employer, a "significant" part of its economy and nearly 500 well-paid manufacturing positions, said Mayor David Henderson, as Procter & Gamble announced today the closure of the plant.




Magna had an announcement about the recent changes threatening Ontario jobs .... How many part time jobs can be created to hide the real numbers of good paying job leaving I wonder.

Peterborough now most unemployed city in Canada...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...nada-1.4235178

149 workers laid off from Rimowa luggage plant in Cambridge
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitche...yoff-1.4233294




http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/business...lant-1.4235033
Toyota Corolla production moved from Ontario plant to Mexico now heading to yet-to-be determined location
Japanese automakers Toyota Motor Corp. and Mazda Motor Corp. said Friday they plan to spend $1.6 billion US to set up a joint-venture auto manufacturing plant in the U.S., creating up to 4,000 jobs.

The plant will have an annual production capacity of about 300,000 vehicles and produce Toyota Corollas for the North American market. Mazda will make cross-over models that it plans to introduce to that market, both sides said.

The companies will split equally the cost for the plant, scheduled to open in 2021 at a location yet to be determined.

Toyota said it changed its plan to make Corollas at a plant in Guanajuato, Mexico, now under construction, and instead will produce Tacoma pickups there.

Corolla production had been bounced out of its Ontario plant, in favour of Mexico. Toyota has made more than three million Corollas in its Cambridge, Ont., plant, rated the best quality auto plant in North America by J.D. Power.

A Toyota spokesperson said the change would not affect timing of the end of production at the Cambridge plant, set for 2019.

A local business owner told me yesterday he is selling out after 30 years, business and 98+ acres. Just too much BS regs and bureaucracy.

He had engineering, permitting etc. completed with the ministry, Kawartha lakes etc, did 328K to meet standards, then was told an additional 160K was needed and another round of inspection before he could use the improvements.

After he spent another 50K on a lawyer and a threat of a lawsuit, his previous improvements and permits were suddenly approved.

WAY too much bureaucracy and inept levels of government in Ontario and has been for over a decade.

This man started a business from scratch at 21 and now at 51 has had to cut his employees down from 8-10 to he and his wife only.

How much longer do you think he will, or can, afford to sweat blood for an out of control liberal government?

Glad I did the topic as a general one .... if I covered all the closings it would just get annoying but here goes another bigger one of 200

http://www.woodstocksentinelreview.c...-to-close-2018
A Woodstock plant founded in 1936 is slated to close next year, officials told about 200 employees Wednesday morning in an emergency meeting.

Employees at Firestone were informed the textile plant, which mainly produces cord material for automobile tires, would scale back production gradually and close by the end of 2018.

Sunny ways.....and a new Ontario car tag slogan for Ontario....... "Years to Recover"

Transcom announces closure of Barrie call centre; 280 people affected
https://barrie.ctvnews.ca/transcom-a...cted-1.3761839
A company spokesperson tells CTV News that the traditional way of running a business is no longer viable, and that Transcom would be moving to an offshore operation and work at home model.

The spokesperson says the decision to close was made last fall, but delayed announcing it until after the holidays.

The decision means that 280 people in Barrie will be let go.

Maybe I will start doing these in bulk after this.... interesting it was announced about the same time as Justin's "we won't be cutting taxes" speech at Davos.

Campbell Soup shuttering 87-year-old Toronto facility, 380 jobs to be impacted
http://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn...to-be-impacted