some people need to read regulations

i am sorry to vent, but i am truly amazed by some hunters every year... i don't know if people don't know how to interpret the regulations or even look at them, but every season or two I have conversations with people, most of whom are long time hunters, who tell me stuff that is " the law" and I shake my head... a few years ago , during my heavy equipment course, a guy argued until he was blue in the face that the controlled hunt in Newbury/Bothwell are was only a weekend hunt, not a full week... no matter what I told him ( even when I told him we hunt for a full week, see and interact with CO's that would clearly charge us if we were hunting out of season) he was right... then I had to literally print off an email from a local CO that I had to show it is 100% legal to bait for deer, moose and bear during hunting season in Ontario.. still didn't believe me! .. then I had it out with someone who told me if I scouted turkeys with camo on, sitting in my blind ( not on here, although I know this was a discussion on here a while back too) that I would be charged for hunting out of season AND harassing wildlife.. now, I just had to clarify with a long time hunter that it is legal to hunt with decoys in Ontario... yes, i was "informed" by another long time hunter that "i better not get caught hunting with decoys.. it's illegal"... come on people... please , for the love of all humanity, read and understand the regs before running off at the mouth about what is and is not legal during open seasons... just baffles me... just to note, not bashing or calling out anyone on here or any other forum.. just putting out there what I have had told to me through general hunting conversations with friends and co workers..

Some people eh...I've also had some similar conversations

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I have a link on my phone to look up stuff frequently. I seem to forget get legal limits. Fishing mostly but it's still handy to have for both sports. Yeah was a guy at our cottage last year. Told me I was breaking the law using callers and baiting. I'd tell him the regulations. His backward response. Was. If you say so. But your asking for trouble if you get caught. Just a dumbass.


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There is an Ask a CO question regarding calling turkeys early, before legal light, with an encased shotgun. The answer from the CO was pretty much that you could be charged as it meets the literal definition of hunting. I would imagine sitting in a blind, all camo, calling turkeys before season COULD meet the definition of hunting. I do know a couple CO's that would lay that charge....
Your other examples are pretty much no brainers!!

If you make something and people have difficulty using it are you the problem or are the people the problem.


The regs are all over the place and not easy to interpret.

Here is a tip........never argue with an idiot........people listening won't be able to tell you apart.

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Originally Posted by boogaloo

Here is a tip........never argue with an idiot........people listening won't be able to tell you apart.

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Take that one step further, just avoid people :D

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Originally Posted by buckluck_9pt

i am sorry to vent, but i am truly amazed by some hunters every year... i don't know if people don't know how to interpret the regulations or even look at them, but every season or two I have conversations with people, most of whom are long time hunters, who tell me stuff that is " the law" and I shake my head... a few years ago , during my heavy equipment course, a guy argued until he was blue in the face that the controlled hunt in Newbury/Bothwell are was only a weekend hunt, not a full week... no matter what I told him ( even when I told him we hunt for a full week, see and interact with CO's that would clearly charge us if we were hunting out of season) he was right... then I had to literally print off an email from a local CO that I had to show it is 100% legal to bait for deer, moose and bear during hunting season in Ontario.. still didn't believe me! .. then I had it out with someone who told me if I scouted turkeys with camo on, sitting in my blind ( not on here, although I know this was a discussion on here a while back too) that I would be charged for hunting out of season AND harassing wildlife.. now, I just had to clarify with a long time hunter that it is legal to hunt with decoys in Ontario... yes, i was "informed" by another long time hunter that "i better not get caught hunting with decoys.. it's illegal"... come on people... please , for the love of all humanity, read and understand the regs before running off at the mouth about what is and is not legal during open seasons... just baffles me... just to note, not bashing or calling out anyone on here or any other forum.. just putting out there what I have had told to me through general hunting conversations with friends and co workers..

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I learned a long time ago not to argue with people like that. It's an exercise in frustration. I got fed up with listening to them,so,I just let them spout off,smile and nod then do what ever I want,anyway. It's a lot easier on the nerves. If they want to limit their outdoor activity and enjoyment because they aren't sharp enough to figure it out,screw 'em. Not my job,man,besides,there's always one less moron in the bush to deal with,right?;)

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Originally Posted by Goosesniper

I have a link on my phone to look up stuff frequently. I seem to forget get legal limits. Fishing mostly but it's still handy to have for both sports. Yeah was a guy at our cottage last year. Told me I was breaking the law using callers and baiting. I'd tell him the regulations. His backward response. Was. If you say so. But your asking for trouble if you get caught. Just a dumbass.

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Some people tend to think that certain rules that apply to one species also apply to another. As we are all aware e-callers, bait & live decoys are illegal for turkey hunting. Doesn't apply to coyotes for example.

I think that as a general rule, those of us on this forum are more familiar with the regs than most hunters. If someone happens to make a false or inaccurate statement, they are usually quickly corrected. It's sometimes seen as petty (sometimes it's splitting hairs), but for the most part it makes all of us a little more aware of the rules.

I would definitely agree with you though. Some of the stuff you hear people spout as "the law" is very strange.

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Originally Posted by buckluck_9pt

i am sorry to vent, but i am truly amazed by some hunters every year... i don't know if people don't know how to interpret the regulations or even look at them, but every season or two I have conversations with people, most of whom are long time hunters, who tell me stuff that is " the law" and I shake my head... a few years ago , during my heavy equipment course, a guy argued until he was blue in the face that the controlled hunt in Newbury/Bothwell are was only a weekend hunt, not a full week... no matter what I told him ( even when I told him we hunt for a full week, see and interact with CO's that would clearly charge us if we were hunting out of season) he was right... then I had to literally print off an email from a local CO that I had to show it is 100% legal to bait for deer, moose and bear during hunting season in Ontario.. still didn't believe me! .. then I had it out with someone who told me if I scouted turkeys with camo on, sitting in my blind ( not on here, although I know this was a discussion on here a while back too) that I would be charged for hunting out of season AND harassing wildlife.. now, I just had to clarify with a long time hunter that it is legal to hunt with decoys in Ontario... yes, i was "informed" by another long time hunter that "i better not get caught hunting with decoys.. it's illegal"... come on people... please , for the love of all humanity, read and understand the regs before running off at the mouth about what is and is not legal during open seasons... just baffles me... just to note, not bashing or calling out anyone on here or any other forum.. just putting out there what I have had told to me through general hunting conversations with friends and co workers..

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Well generally I do agree with you that the regulations are pretty simple and easy to understand BUT that does not mean all and if you read them and think you have understood them you might get a unpleasant surprise.So I will give you a example of what I mean Page 23 of the regulations ROADS -Possession and Discharge of Firearms.So I,am in Wollaston Township, can I have a loaded gun in my possession while walking on a roadway during open season for Moose Season.
Does it change for Deer season and if i does,how does it change?

Lets talk about group hunting and the meaning of "immediate" when having to tag an animal when group hunting. The law says the tag holder must immediately tag the animal where it dropped.Your hunting in a group and your Dad who is 65 years old and is 4 kilometers away through the bush and is WALKING back to you.Is his 2 hour walk going to meet the criteria for "immediate".

I could go on and on but it might make your head explode.Now I will guess your first language is English, imagine trying to figure out the wording of some of the regulations if this is not your first language.

In my opinion your making this overly simplistic and if you have been viewing on here awhile we will have seen the hundreds of posts debating regulations and laws often misunderstood everything from trespass to controlled hunts.

In the "interesting story" thread which I think you might be alluding to in this thread we have three or four levels of courts and Judges making different decisions on the law with respect to baiting for waterfowl.

http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc/...?resultIndex=3

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

There is an Ask a CO question regarding calling turkeys early, before legal light, with an encased shotgun. The answer from the CO was pretty much that you could be charged as it meets the literal definition of hunting. I would imagine sitting in a blind, all camo, calling turkeys before season COULD meet the definition of hunting. I do know a couple CO's that would lay that charge....
Your other examples are pretty much no brainers!!

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Only way you would ever get charged us if you were in possession of a firearm...sitting in a blind before season scouting would never land you a charge, as you don't have a firearm....I would love to see a CO make a charge like that stick if you are scouting and have NO firearm anywhere near you....the CO I spoke with said they would never consider it if there is no firearm in your blind, or in your vehicle...

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Originally Posted by buckluck_9pt

Only way you would ever get charged us if you were in possession of a firearm...sitting in a blind before season scouting would never land you a charge, as you don't have a firearm....I would love to see a CO make a charge like that stick if you are scouting and have NO firearm anywhere near you....the CO I spoke with said they would never consider it if there is no firearm in your blind, or in your vehicle...

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I agree ! However, the CO may not. I wouldn't go as far as saying "only way you would ever get charged". Laying a charge is a long way from a conviction. The Sections in the various Acts are open to interpretation. Unfortunately, the only interpretation that counts is that of a court. I've seen some pretty strange interpretations by CO's over the years. We are lucky here, we have a great bunch of CO's.

My favorite is one that comes from non-hunters not necessarily people against it just people that have no idea any of the rules or regulations at all... "you can't hunt canada geese! They're protected! They're called CANADA geese for a reason!"

I just smile and nod! ;) sure thing bud!

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My favorite one is having idiots tell me that a landowner cannot hunt their property if they post "no hunting" signs.

Yep, just nod n smile?

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Originally Posted by Bushmoose

My favorite one is having idiots tell me that a landowner cannot hunt their property if they post "no hunting" signs.

Yep, just nod n smile?

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Funny thing there moose. In "some" places that is true. Guess they don't want you creating a private hunting preserve. But if you post your land no trespass you can always tell anyone that asks NO. But the places where I have seen the no hunt means everybody stuff they are handing out some pretty stiff fines for trespassing .

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Funny thing there moose. In "some" places that is true. Guess they don't want you creating a private hunting preserve. But if you post your land no trespass you can always tell anyone that asks NO. But the places where I have seen the no hunt means everybody stuff they are handing out some pretty stiff fines for trespassing .

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I'm just nodding n smiling?

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Well generally I do agree with you that the regulations are pretty simple and easy to understand BUT that does not mean all and if you read them and think you have understood them you might get a unpleasant surprise.So I will give you a example of what I mean Page 23 of the regulations ROADS -Possession and Discharge of Firearms.So I,am in Wollaston Township, can I have a loaded gun in my possession while walking on a roadway during open season for Moose Season.
Does it change for Deer season and if i does,how does it change?

Lets talk about group hunting and the meaning of "immediate" when having to tag an animal when group hunting. The law says the tag holder must immediately tag the animal where it dropped.Your hunting in a group and your Dad who is 65 years old and is 4 kilometers away through the bush and is WALKING back to you.Is his 2 hour walk going to meet the criteria for "immediate".

I could go on and on but it might make your head explode.Now I will guess your first language is English, imagine trying to figure out the wording of some of the regulations if this is not your first language.

In my opinion your making this overly simplistic and if you have been viewing on here awhile we will have seen the hundreds of posts debating regulations and laws often misunderstood everything from trespass to controlled hunts.

In the "interesting story" thread which I think you might be alluding to in this thread we have three or four levels of courts and Judges making different decisions on the law with respect to baiting for waterfowl.

http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc/...?resultIndex=3

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i agree, some of the the literature is confusing. but as i always do, contact the mnr for clarification.. i know up north where i was from you could walk the access roads with a loaded gun for grouse.. when i took the fish and wildlife course, it covered some ( only some, not all as it is a steep slope) of the laws about that.. i know up north, if the roads were not maintained, you could walk them with a loaded shotgun for grouse, rifles for moose etc.. yet you could not shoot across the road.. odd but that is how they enforced it up there... in terms of group hunting and the term immediate when it comes to tagging.. had this discussion with a CO as well.. their answer.. if you are group hunting and you shoot/harvest an animal, you are to immediately contact the group member with the valid tag ( with in the confines of the group hunting policies; same WMU, valid tag, within 5 km's etc), together you must search for the animal and upon finding it, immediately tag it.. the trailing of the animal must also be done within a timely fashion.. for your example, if your partner with the tag is hunting 4 km away, they will allow the appropriate time for them to come to you.. meaning, immediately they must give up their hunt, get to you and start the search for your game animal... don't call , tell them you shot one and wait until the end of the hunt/day , or even for an hour, before starting to pack up and meet you to search for your animal... that is what our CO here stated , as i also had a question about their interpenetration of immediate...

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

I agree ! However, the CO may not. I wouldn't go as far as saying "only way you would ever get charged". Laying a charge is a long way from a conviction. The Sections in the various Acts are open to interpretation. Unfortunately, the only interpretation that counts is that of a court. I've seen some pretty strange interpretations by CO's over the years. We are lucky here, we have a great bunch of CO's.

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true, we got some good CO's here too.. i suppose if they wanted to, they could lay a charge, but i can surely tell you without a firearm present ( either on the persons themselves or in their vehicles), they wouldn't do anything other than give you a talking to advising it could be considered an offense.. i know they do this with individuals who have a history of doing "shady" things, etc... i know when i took the fish and wildlife, our law professor always said " find that firearm, if there is one"... lol.. i understand totally that by doing such it "could" be considered by definition, hunting.. but without a firearm present, it would never happen.. i had a similar discussion before about shed hunting and walking through the woods.. guy said if i crossed a deer path or followed it ( which i always do in search of a shed antler) i could be charged for harassing wildlife and hunting, as per the literature, it could be taken as tracking or pursuing game... like i say, its possible, but i personally do not know a CO that would give you a hard time, if they determine you are simply scouting and have no firearms.. but like you say, weirder things have happened i guess

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Originally Posted by RiverRat88

My favorite is one that comes from non-hunters not necessarily people against it just people that have no idea any of the rules or regulations at all... "you can't hunt canada geese! They're protected! They're called CANADA geese for a reason!"

I just smile and nod! ;) sure thing bud!

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hahahahaha.. man, i laugh at this one, only because i get this ALL THE TIME... I had a lady pissed at me because i said i was going goose hunting ... she was pissed! was going to call the cops and have me charged for hunting out of season and shooting " an endangered species"... i laughed and told her to go ahead, while pulling out my migratory bird stamp and showing her the seasons... she was dumb founded...

I've had those types of arguments. As for the guy you dealt with, sounds like a malignant narcissist. You can't win with that personality type. Walk away.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

I learned a long time ago not to argue with people like that. It's an exercise in frustration. I got fed up with listening to them,so,I just let them spout off,smile and nod then do what ever I want,anyway. It's a lot easier on the nerves. If they want to limit their outdoor activity and enjoyment because they aren't sharp enough to figure it out,screw 'em. Not my job,man,besides,there's always one less moron in the bush to deal with,right?;)

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that's pretty much what i told the one guy.. told him i know its a 7 day hunt, if you and your guys only want to hunt for 3 days, good on you.. more deer for me to shoot....lol

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Originally Posted by RiverRat88

My favorite is one that comes from non-hunters not necessarily people against it just people that have no idea any of the rules or regulations at all... "you can't hunt canada geese! They're protected! They're called CANADA geese for a reason!"

I just smile and nod! ;) sure thing bud!

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HA! I had an argument with a lady years ago over that. I've learned on thing from 'anti's', they are the most ignorant people I know. I still laugh when I read their comments on a youtube hunting video.

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Originally Posted by buckluck_9pt

hahahahaha.. man, i laugh at this one, only because i get this ALL THE TIME... I had a lady pissed at me because i said i was going goose hunting ... she was pissed! was going to call the cops and have me charged for hunting out of season and shooting " an endangered species"... i laughed and told her to go ahead, while pulling out my migratory bird stamp and showing her the seasons... she was dumb founded...

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I love psychology. We have introverts and extroverts in life. The extrovert will mouth off first and think later. I have a mother-in-law like that.

[QUOTE=RiverRat88;1021142]My favorite is one that comes from non-hunters not necessarily people against it just people that have no idea any of the rules or regulations at all... "you can't hunt canada geese! They're protected! They're called CANADA geese for a reason!"

I just smile and nod! ;) sure thing bud!



Yep!

I get that one every year

People are amazed when asking about turkey hunting. When I divulge you can only take one per license and only two licenses permitted and only a male Turkey (spring season). They think it's an all out slaughter and filling the freezer full of xmas bird. It's too bad the lefts and anti hunters don't have as much tolerance for our enjoyment and beliefs as they expect for their own.


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Originally Posted by buckluck_9pt

hahahahaha.. man, i laugh at this one, only because i get this ALL THE TIME... I had a lady pissed at me because i said i was going goose hunting ... she was pissed! was going to call the cops and have me charged for hunting out of season and shooting " an endangered species"... i laughed and told her to go ahead, while pulling out my migratory bird stamp and showing her the seasons... she was dumb founded...

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Lol an endangered species, someone doesn't get outside much! Just look up!

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Originally Posted by RiverRat88

Lol an endangered species, someone doesn't get outside much! Just look up!

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Around here, they are definitely endangered.....during hunting season !!

Well I'm pretty sure my last goose day they went extinct and then somehow bounced back the day after ;)

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Originally Posted by Goosesniper

People are amazed when asking about turkey hunting. When I divulge you can only take one per license and only two licenses permitted and only a male Turkey (spring season). They think it's an all out slaughter and filling the freezer full of xmas bird. It's too bad the lefts and anti hunters don't have as much tolerance for our enjoyment and beliefs as they expect for their own.


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Ahhhh, not only male turkeys.... any bearded turkey.... I haven't shot a bearded hen but have seen them.... just not in our bush, saw a hen with some 9 or 10" beard up by Newbury....

I have been hearing about a few instances where some CO's are charging apprentice hunters who have their own bag limit under the migratory bird license with party hunting because they can not identify their birds they shot versus the birds the mentor shot. CO's separate the mentor/apprentice and then interview them. I know the Migratory Bird Act states there is no party hunting for migratory birds. However, tripping up an apprentice hunter in this way seems to be a heavy handed way to enforce the regulation as well as an extremely negative first interaction with a CO for the apprentice hunter.

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Originally Posted by Dythbringer

I have been hearing about a few instances where some CO's are charging apprentice hunters who have their own bag limit under the migratory bird license with party hunting because they can not identify their birds they shot versus the birds the mentor shot. CO's separate the mentor/apprentice and then interview them. I know the Migratory Bird Act states there is no party hunting for migratory birds. However, tripping up an apprentice hunter in this way seems to be a heavy handed way to enforce the regulation as well as an extremely negative first interaction with a CO for the apprentice hunter.

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It's always very important for all MB hunters to keep their kills separate,so,they can be instantly identified. Your absolutely right on the money that the "separate and interrogate" tactic disadvantages young,inexperienced hunters,but,if the apprentice is a minor,that tactic is expressly illegal when interviewing youths without an adult present (YCJAct). There'd be ZERO tolerance if it was my kid. "Heavy-handed" doesn't begin the describe it.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

It's always very important for all MB hunters to keep their kills separate,so,they can be instantly identified. Your absolutely right on the money that the "separate and interrogate" tactic disadvantages young,inexperienced hunters,but,if the apprentice is a minor,that tactic is expressly illegal when interviewing youths without an adult present (YCJAct). There'd be ZERO tolerance if it was my kid. "Heavy-handed" doesn't begin the describe it.

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Like I said, I have been hearing some reports. The person I heard it from has no reason to lie to me but I am only hearing one side of the story. I am sure the CO's is different. Could it be that the CO's have been given a zero tolerance policy to follow regarding F&W laws from now on to boost fine income? I wouldn't put it past our current regime at Queen's Park.

I love the no party hunting for waterfowl, maybe it only happens with people I hunt with but when a flock comes in often somehow more than one shot gets taken at the same bird, who does the bird belong to? The oldest hunter maybe the youngest maybe nobody definitely a tough one to prove any way you look at it either from a hunter or CO point of view. And yes I have cleaned birds that have different pellets in it. I guess some laws aren't that clear.

Kinda like party fishing.....nearly unenforceable!!!

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Originally Posted by Snip

I love the no party hunting for waterfowl, maybe it only happens with people I hunt with but when a flock comes in often somehow more than one shot gets taken at the same bird, who does the bird belong to? The oldest hunter maybe the youngest maybe nobody definitely a tough one to prove any way you look at it either from a hunter or CO point of view. And yes I have cleaned birds that have different pellets in it. I guess some laws aren't that clear.

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I watched us shoot 1 bird from 3 guns, we all sort of cringed. We had our fields of fire but we worked from the outside in and the 1 was right out front flying away and took 3 shots almost instantly, who puts that one behind their blind?

I also watched a cottontail get hit by 2 12ga shotguns in one bound, not much left for the pot.

You read the regulations and read and read and there are still situations where there is room for interpretation, not obvious stuff but it is there, I think they leave them in so that they can charge someone because there is something else going on. The sitting in a blind without a gun, if you are calling before legal light or without a license, it is part of the greater definition of hunting. Shining a spot light on deer in a field can get your nailed, gun or no gun, it is harassment of wildlife.

We actually had people coming up to hunt migratory birds, they are from the US, a CO was called and they were told that if the camera man was in a blind in the field that he would have to buy a license but in the case of a migratory bird permit he could not have a full bag as he was not shooting. He was hunting in one sense but due to the lack of party hunting his bag remained empty.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Well generally I do agree with you that the regulations are pretty simple and easy to understand BUT that does not mean all and if you read them and think you have understood them you might get a unpleasant surprise.So I will give you a example of what I mean Page 23 of the regulations ROADS -Possession and Discharge of Firearms.So I,am in Wollaston Township, can I have a loaded gun in my possession while walking on a roadway during open season for Moose Season.
Does it change for Deer season and if i does,how does it change?

Lets talk about group hunting and the meaning of "immediate" when having to tag an animal when group hunting. The law says the tag holder must immediately tag the animal where it dropped.Your hunting in a group and your Dad who is 65 years old and is 4 kilometers away through the bush and is WALKING back to you.Is his 2 hour walk going to meet the criteria for "immediate".

I could go on and on but it might make your head explode.Now I will guess your first language is English, imagine trying to figure out the wording of some of the regulations if this is not your first language.

In my opinion your making this overly simplistic and if you have been viewing on here awhile we will have seen the hundreds of posts debating regulations and laws often misunderstood everything from trespass to controlled hunts.

In the "interesting story" thread which I think you might be alluding to in this thread we have three or four levels of courts and Judges making different decisions on the law with respect to baiting for waterfowl.

http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc/...?resultIndex=3

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Gilroy I find your question with respect to your dad 2 hours from the kill site and the matter of 'immediately,' fascinating. Obviously if your dad is the only one with the appropriate seal for the down animal, then 'immediately' is relative to him being on site. In which case the notion of 'immediately,' become subordinated to any attempt to field dress the animal. The seal has to be attached to the down animal by the seal holder, immediately before any attempt is made to field dress the down game.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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Originally Posted by Gun Nut

Gilroy I find your question with respect to your dad 2 hours from the kill site and the matter of 'immediately,' fascinating. Obviously if your dad is the only one with the appropriate seal for the down animal, then 'immediately' is relative to him being on site. In which case the notion of 'immediately,' become subordinated to any attempt to field dress the animal. The seal has to be attached to the down animal by the seal holder, immediately before any attempt is made to field dress the down game.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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Please qualify your statement by posting the authority...

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Originally Posted by Gun Nut

Gilroy I find your question with respect to your dad 2 hours from the kill site and the matter of 'immediately,' fascinating. Obviously if your dad is the only one with the appropriate seal for the down animal, then 'immediately' is relative to him being on site. In which case the notion of 'immediately,' become subordinated to any attempt to field dress the animal. The seal has to be attached to the down animal by the seal holder, immediately before any attempt is made to field dress the down game.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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I have always found it interesting you have to tag before field dressing. In the 1980's in Grey County a hunter in a group that hunted beside us shot a doe and immediately tag the doe in the nose . And if you haven't guessed the doe got up and ran away. I trust the men who told the story. I wondered what to do if we shot the doe latter in the hunt. We never seen or found the doe. My dad has used the bullet behind the ear after the story., if unsure. To be sure it was actually a kill gutting it would make sense ( heart in hand) Though I understand that would/may not be consider immediate.By definition of kill a person may not be certain until heart in hand. Most times it easy to identify a dead deer. This post Not intended to get members worked up just a thought.

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

Please qualify your statement by posting the authority...

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not sure why he has to "prove" how he comes to the conclusion of what "immediate" means.. here is what is under the Party Hunting part of the regs..
Hunting Regulations 2016
•
2017 25

Party Hunting
A person may hunt moose, deer or black bear in a party even
if the person has previously attached his or her game seal to
a moose, deer or black bear. A person may also hunt elk in
a party with some restrictions in addition to the conditions
listed below - see page 53 for more information on Modified
Party Hunting for Elk. The term “Party Hunting” means two
or more persons hunting during an open season for moose,
elk, deer or black bear under all of the following conditions:
•
Each person has a valid licence to hunt the big game
species being hunted.
•
The total number of moose, elk, deer or black bear killed
by the party does not exceed the total number of game
seals held by the members of the party licensed to hunt
that species.
•
The total number of moose, elk, deer or black bear of
a specified sex, age or type killed by the party does not
exceed the total number of game seals validated for that
sex, age, or type that are held by members of the party.
•
All members of the party hunt together in the same
Wildlife Management Unit or portion thereof for which
the game seal is valid.
•
Each member of the party hunts within five kilometres of
the person who holds the game seal that is valid for the
wildlife being hunted.
•
Each member of the party must be able to reliably and
immediately communicate with other members of the
pa r t y.
•
All members of the party, including the person who
holds the seal that is valid for the wildlife that the party
is hunting, actively participate in the hunt and hunt
co-operatively.
The person who kills the wildlife while hunting in a party
shall immediately notify all other members of the party that
the wildlife has been killed and the game seal holder shall
immediately affix the game seal to the wildlife in the manner
indicated in the instructions accompanying the game seal.

now, it seems pretty clear that if the tag holder is to 'immediately' affix the tag, it would mean the tag holder affix the tag prior to the animal being moved, towed, transported or field dressed... this goes with all game animals.. as per the regs, and on the back of your deer seal/tag, all game animals are to be tagged on site , immediately after the kill... this is in the regs as well as on the Ontario natural resource site.... i am often so suprised during the turkey season as well.. see so many people ( especially on youtube) who film hunts, shoot a bird, run and pick it up, carry it to their blind, take photos etc, then tag the bird.. if the tags say immediately tag the animal, it means once you find the animal, immediately tag it.. don't throw in on the quad, gut it, get it to the truck/vehicle, then tag it.. i know the number of CO's around here are next to zero, but if caught, could cause some major issues if found gutting, towing or transporting a downed game animal with no tag on it..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hardman

I have always found it interesting you have to tag before field dressing. In the 1980's in Grey County a hunter in a group that hunted beside us shot a doe and immediately tag the doe in the nose . And if you haven't guessed the doe got up and ran away. I trust the men who told the story. I wondered what to do if we shot the doe latter in the hunt. We never seen or found the doe. My dad has used the bullet behind the ear after the story., if unsure. To be sure it was actually a kill gutting it would make sense ( heart in hand) Though I understand that would/may not be consider immediate.By definition of kill a person may not be certain until heart in hand. Most times it easy to identify a dead deer. This post Not intended to get members worked up just a thought.

---

Poke it in the eye with a stick, anything alive will react to that, make sure it is dead, you do not need the heart in your hand to be sure it is dead.

The problem is all the guys who would dress them and then put a tag on, or dress them then bring them back to the camp and put the tag on, or dress them then bring them back to the camp, cut them up and put them in the freezer and not put the tag on.

It makes it a lot easier to stop poachers when the rule is to immediately tag the animal, this keeps from these guys who would poach if not caught from being able to do it so easily.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fox

Poke it in the eye with a stick, anything alive will react to that, make sure it is dead, you do not need the heart in your hand to be sure it is dead.

The problem is all the guys who would dress them and then put a tag on, or dress them then bring them back to the camp and put the tag on, or dress them then bring them back to the camp, cut them up and put them in the freezer and not put the tag on.

It makes it a lot easier to stop poachers when the rule is to immediately tag the animal, this keeps from these guys who would poach if not caught from being able to do it so easily.

---

agree, and that is why they have to include the "immediate" tagging in the regs,, too many people in the past have gotten away without tagging the animal as the laws were more lax back in the day... if anyone believes you have to have "heart in hand" to ensure the animal is dead, is just waiting to be nailed... if anyone uses that excuse it will surely get them nailed for failing to tag a game animal.. simply poking or nudging with your foot ( never stand in front of the animal as it could gore or injure you if not dead, animals when spooked will lunge forward) to ensure it's dead.. once you confirm it's dead, tag it...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by buckluck_9pt

not sure why he has to "prove" how he comes to the conclusion of what "immediate" means.. here is what is under the Party Hunting part of the regs..
Hunting Regulations 2016
•
2017 25

Party Hunting
A person may hunt moose, deer or black bear in a party even
if the person has previously attached his or her game seal to
a moose, deer or black bear. A person may also hunt elk in
a party with some restrictions in addition to the conditions
listed below - see page 53 for more information on Modified
Party Hunting for Elk. The term “Party Hunting” means two
or more persons hunting during an open season for moose,
elk, deer or black bear under all of the following conditions:
•
Each person has a valid licence to hunt the big game
species being hunted.
•
The total number of moose, elk, deer or black bear killed
by the party does not exceed the total number of game
seals held by the members of the party licensed to hunt
that species.
•
The total number of moose, elk, deer or black bear of
a specified sex, age or type killed by the party does not
exceed the total number of game seals validated for that
sex, age, or type that are held by members of the party.
•
All members of the party hunt together in the same
Wildlife Management Unit or portion thereof for which
the game seal is valid.
•
Each member of the party hunts within five kilometres of
the person who holds the game seal that is valid for the
wildlife being hunted.
•
Each member of the party must be able to reliably and
immediately communicate with other members of the
pa r t y.
•
All members of the party, including the person who
holds the seal that is valid for the wildlife that the party
is hunting, actively participate in the hunt and hunt
co-operatively.
The person who kills the wildlife while hunting in a party
shall immediately notify all other members of the party that
the wildlife has been killed and the game seal holder shall
immediately affix the game seal to the wildlife in the manner
indicated in the instructions accompanying the game seal.

now, it seems pretty clear that if the tag holder is to 'immediately' affix the tag, it would mean the tag holder affix the tag prior to the animal being moved, towed, transported or field dressed... this goes with all game animals.. as per the regs, and on the back of your deer seal/tag, all game animals are to be tagged on site , immediately after the kill... this is in the regs as well as on the Ontario natural resource site.... i am often so suprised during the turkey season as well.. see so many people ( especially on youtube) who film hunts, shoot a bird, run and pick it up, carry it to their blind, take photos etc, then tag the bird.. if the tags say immediately tag the animal, it means once you find the animal, immediately tag it.. don't throw in on the quad, gut it, get it to the truck/vehicle, then tag it.. i know the number of CO's around here are next to zero, but if caught, could cause some major issues if found gutting, towing or transporting a downed game animal with no tag on it..

---

I'm pretty sure I know what the ACT says . I also know what immediately means. In the context of party hunting, if the tag holder is within the 5kms,, it can take an hour or so to get to the kill site. In that case the term immediately has new meaning. There is no mention in the FWCA, prohibiting the shooter from dressing a moose, before the tag holder gets there to tag it. If the shooter is also the tag holder, then the term immediate applies.
As long as you don't remove the animal from the kill site prior to the tag getting there, no offence committed. Allowing an animal to lay in the sun and bloat, spoiling, waiting for the tag to get there, IS an offence...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rick_iles

I'm pretty sure I know what the ACT says . I also know what immediately means. In the context of party hunting, if the tag holder is within the 5kms,, it can take an hour or so to get to the kill site. In that case the term immediately has new meaning. There is no mention in the FWCA, prohibiting the shooter from dressing a moose, before the tag holder gets there to tag it. If the shooter is also the tag holder, then the term immediate applies.
As long as you don't remove the animal from the kill site prior to the tag getting there, no offence committed. Allowing an animal to lay in the sun and bloat, spoiling, waiting for the tag to get there, IS an offence...

---

Ya, no problem with the dressing but the kill site is key. If they said not before dressing then people would haul it back to camp to dress it to skirt the rules.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fox

Ya, no problem with the dressing but the kill site is key. If they said not before dressing then people would haul it back to camp to dress it to skirt the rules.

---

Fair enough, but that wasn't what was posted. There is no offence of field dressing an animal before it is tagged! The offence is failing to immediately tag the animal. The word immediately is open to interpretation, depending on the circumstances.
As Gilroy posted, party hunting is one of those legal circumstances where immediately has a different meaning, than when the shooter is also the tag holder.

i understand what you guys are saying, about it not saying to tag before field dressing.. however, the insertion of the word immediate , I believe, is to make it clear that the first thing that should be done to any wild game is to tag it... hence the word immediately... i sent yet another email to my local CO here as i always send them questions when it comes to reading and interpreting these regs and laws.. they enforce it so they will have better understanding as to what is expected from us hunters... i will post their response once I get it...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by buckluck_9pt

i understand what you guys are saying, about it not saying to tag before field dressing.. however, the insertion of the word immediate , I believe, is to make it clear that the first thing that should be done to any wild game is to tag it... hence the word immediately... i sent yet another email to my local CO here as i always send them questions when it comes to reading and interpreting these regs and laws.. they enforce it so they will have better understanding as to what is expected from us hunters... i will post their response once I get it...

---

You must be keeping Mark busy !!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rick_iles

Fair enough, but that wasn't what was posted. There is no offence of field dressing an animal before it is tagged! The offence is failing to immediately tag the animal. The word immediately is open to interpretation, depending on the circumstances.
As Gilroy posted, party hunting is one of those legal circumstances where immediately has a different meaning, than when the shooter is also the tag holder.

---

I have heard of people being given the third degree for taking photos before the person with the game seal showed up, I know that most COs would know that you were just waiting around but there are also some who would go at you for any interpretation they could have on the matter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fox

I have heard of people being given the third degree for taking photos before the person with the game seal showed up, I know that most COs would know that you were just waiting around but there are also some who would go at you for any interpretation they could have on the matter.

---

There's no question about that. That's why there are supervisors and courts !!

Here is an interesting situation that actually happened to us. We were party hunting deer in a controlled hunt several of us sat on escape routes from a thick swamp area. We sent 2 guys in across a pasture field from a road to go through the swamp to move things around. No deer were spotted. The 2 guys left the same way they went in and upon walking back to the truck they noticed deer tracks in their footprints in the snow and laughed about being outsmarted. Upon getting in the vehicle the 1 guy noticed a deer piled up against the fence along the road 20 yrds in front of the truck. They went over and sure enough it was the deer that came out on their tracks appeared to have run into the fence and broke it's neck stone dead. Is this an animal that should be tagged legally or is it considered a found deer and you just fill out the info on the ministry site? How does it look hanging with other deer if no tag is on it and a CO comes by? Again hard to believe but this really did happen.

Here are the ill-informed opinions I've personally heard and who I've heard them from:

"Canada geese are protected, they're our national bird" (non-hunters)
"Its illegal to put out bait/salt for deer" (hunters and non-hunters)
"Crossbows are illegal" (non-hunters)
".223 is illegal for deer" (hunters)
"semi-automatic rifles/shotguns are illegal" (non-hunters)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snip

Here is an interesting situation that actually happened to us. We were party hunting deer in a controlled hunt several of us sat on escape routes from a thick swamp area. We sent 2 guys in across a pasture field from a road to go through the swamp to move things around. No deer were spotted. The 2 guys left the same way they went in and upon walking back to the truck they noticed deer tracks in their footprints in the snow and laughed about being outsmarted. Upon getting in the vehicle the 1 guy noticed a deer piled up against the fence along the road 20 yrds in front of the truck. They went over and sure enough it was the deer that came out on their tracks appeared to have run into the fence and broke it's neck stone dead. Is this an animal that should be tagged legally or is it considered a found deer and you just fill out the info on the ministry site? How does it look hanging with other deer if no tag is on it and a CO comes by? Again hard to believe but this really did happen.

---

I'm pretty sure that it could be proven by the fact that there would be no bullet or arrow entry point. Even after field dressing a deer and skinning it, you would still be able to tell whether it was shot or not, unless you decided to butcher the animal in the field as well.

The story itself is incredible. Sometimes, deer can do some REALLY interesting things.

Letter of the law.

Is quite clear. You don't have to have a firearm with you to be charged wth hunting offences. There is actually no grey in the law on this one.

And in fact not long ago, a couple Yahoo!'s were charged with harassment and hunting without a liscence for joy riding a Moose.

Hunting is ABC ( lying in wait, pursuing etc) with the intentint to kill, capture etc

Hunting isn't ABC (thing like lying in wait) when there's no intention to kill, capture etc. So photography, scouting, wildlife viewing...no problems

Unless

The game is harassed, injured or killed as a result of your actions. Then you are "hunting"

So
Yes you most certainly can be charged. So can photographers, dog walkers and more.

If your actions (lying in wait, calling, ) result in X being hurt, harassed or killed

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snip

Here is an interesting situation that actually happened to us. We were party hunting deer in a controlled hunt several of us sat on escape routes from a thick swamp area. We sent 2 guys in across a pasture field from a road to go through the swamp to move things around. No deer were spotted. The 2 guys left the same way they went in and upon walking back to the truck they noticed deer tracks in their footprints in the snow and laughed about being outsmarted. Upon getting in the vehicle the 1 guy noticed a deer piled up against the fence along the road 20 yrds in front of the truck. They went over and sure enough it was the deer that came out on their tracks appeared to have run into the fence and broke it's neck stone dead. Is this an animal that should be tagged legally or is it considered a found deer and you just fill out the info on the ministry site? How does it look hanging with other deer if no tag is on it and a CO comes by? Again hard to believe but this really did happen.

---

Simple, call it in. If you find a deer that was dead like this just call it in, I actually have the number of the CO in my wallet due to a few questions like that.

I would call the basic phone number and ask them, I would see about getting a phone number for the CO and I would document my calls. If you take the deer with no evidence of an arrow or bullet wound and you have the evidence of the date and time of your call and any conversation you had with the CO as to what to do then you should be fine. This would not be much different than a deer being hit by a car, it is just a little more interesting due to it being in an open season while you were hunting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fox

Simple, call it in. If you find a deer that was dead like this just call it in, I actually have the number of the CO in my wallet due to a few questions like that.

I would call the basic phone number and ask them, I would see about getting a phone number for the CO and I would document my calls. If you take the deer with no evidence of an arrow or bullet wound and you have the evidence of the date and time of your call and any conversation you had with the CO as to what to do then you should be fine. This would not be much different than a deer being hit by a car, it is just a little more interesting due to it being in an open season while you were hunting.

---

I agree with JBen. The big difference is, they were actively "hunting", with firearms, with full intent of killing the deer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by buckluck_9pt

i understand what you guys are saying, about it not saying to tag before field dressing.. however, the insertion of the word immediate , I believe, is to make it clear that the first thing that should be done to any wild game is to tag it... hence the word immediately... i sent yet another email to my local CO here as i always send them questions when it comes to reading and interpreting these regs and laws.. they enforce it so they will have better understanding as to what is expected from us hunters... i will post their response once I get it...

---

I think that when the legislation was drawn up for "party hunting" our legislators got "lazy" and decided the use of "immediate" was fine for group hunting. When in fact its very different from hunting solo with the tag in your pocket. Now when you consider the distance allowed for party member 5 klms the wording in pretty unreasonable. I know that the intent is to prevent poaching and all that,but would wording like "a soon as is reasonably practical" not be a bit better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilroy

I think that when the legislation was drawn up for "party hunting" our legislators got "lazy" and decided the use of "immediate" was fine for group hunting. When in fact its very different from hunting solo with the tag in your pocket. Now when you consider the distance allowed for party member 5 klms the wording in pretty unreasonable. I know that the intent is to prevent poaching and all that,but would wording like "a soon as is reasonably practical" not be a bit better.

---

Courts have difficulty convicting someone based on the interpretation of one word. A similar instance is the HTA offence of tinted windows. The section said "substantially"...the courts here would not convict when there was no definition of "substantially". To put "immediately" into context, if I shoot an animal at 1000 yds away, in very rough terrain, there's no way I can tag that animal "immediately". Same goes for the party hunting scenario. Conversely, an animal shot at 50 yds can be tagged "immediately". Charges laid would have to be based on the circumstances and the totality of the evidence needed to support a conviction.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilroy

I think that when the legislation was drawn up for "party hunting" our legislators got "lazy" and decided the use of "immediate" was fine for group hunting. When in fact its very different from hunting solo with the tag in your pocket. Now when you consider the distance allowed for party member 5 klms the wording in pretty unreasonable. I know that the intent is to prevent poaching and all that,but would wording like "a soon as is reasonably practical" not be a bit better.

---

i actually think that would be worse.. immediately means once you ( and the tag holder if it is another in the party) find it, tag it.. immediately means just that, immediately.. i think a lot of people are trying to challenge the whole theory of immediately.. the definition is rather clear.. by putting a quote like " as soon as reasonably practical" opens up more of a loop hole than you may think.. what is reasonably practical? right away? or after we drag it out, gut it and get it hung in the cooler?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rick_iles

I agree with JBen. The big difference is, they were actively "hunting", with firearms, with full intent of killing the deer.

---

true, but they could also argue that this deer wasn't hunted, but found dead.. similar if i am driving to my hunting spot and find a dead deer, if i have my firearms in my vehicle ( which means they are in my possession) , am i going to get charged with hunting that animal? no... i agree with the post, call it in and document it... if they can not see any bullet or arrow holes, they can pretty much assume it wasn't shot or hunted.... in this hunters instance, the could also argue that if they hunted it the deer carcass would be pretty fresh.. depending on how long the deer has sat there, they could also rule out it being hunted.. if a hunter is hunting small game let's say ( we often hunt squirrel during the controlled deer hunt if we don't get drawn for it) and i walk up on a dead deer, no evidence of being shot... no blood trail, no entrance or exit wound... am i not able to claim it without facing charges of hunting out of season? i would imagine so.. seeing how there would be no evidence of being shot by a firearm, i have a firearm but not a firearm acceptable to kill a deer ( i hunt with a .22lr) and i have no shot that would indicate i am hunting for large game.. heck, even if i am using my 20 gauge or 12 gauge, if all i have on me is bird shot, etc, i can't be charged with hunting it... this opens up a lot of scenario's and discussion on what could go wrong... i watch a series on youtube, can't remember the name of it, has to do with following CO's around and the one they stopped a guy, his dad and his son ( around 12 years old) and they claimed to be grouse hunting.. dad and father had both 12 gauges.. CO asked to empty all they loads ( taught us this in the fish and wildlife course too) and sure as hell, the father had 2 bird shot and a deer slug in his gun.. the dad had bird shot in the gun but had 2 deer shot , SSG's , in his vest pocket... they got charged.. co stated if they emptied their guns and had NO sign of shooting a deer ( hence the ssg's and the slugs) they would have let them carry on...

Years ago Rick there was a question on the "Ask a Co" website. It may still be there but have fun digging it up.

Can I scout deer at night from my truck using flashlights (its headlights maybe) if there are no guns in the truck.
Answer: While it seem like its ok, ( or something like that) did anyone ask the deer if they might feel like they are being harassed..

How often have I witnessed "professional" photographers getting too close to animals......or "harassing" them. Say the animal moves off 50 yards and the photog follows for another "200 pictures" clickety click click click.. All the time, all the time.
How often have I witnessed a buck bolt.....millions.
And if it runs out into the road and gets smoked as a result.

"Unless"
its harassed, hurt or killed

And then those things like lying in wait, calling, in pursuit of, meet the legal definition of hunting and the letter of the law.

While the regs most certainly often are filled with grey area's, or ambiguous definitions, this to me is one of the better ones.There is no grey room, but lots of room for COs to use their discretion.....based on what they are seeing...based on our actions.
"hunting"............or not

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rick_iles

Courts have difficulty convicting someone based on the interpretation of one word. A similar instance is the HTA offence of tinted windows. The section said "substantially"...the courts here would not convict when there was no definition of "substantially". To put "immediately" into context, if I shoot an animal at 1000 yds away, in very rough terrain, there's no way I can tag that animal "immediately". Same goes for the party hunting scenario. Conversely, an animal shot at 50 yds can be tagged "immediately". Charges laid would have to be based on the circumstances and the totality of the evidence needed to support a conviction.

---

see this is where i disagree.... respectfully of course.. people think that the term immediately means the second you kill you have to tag it.. it doesn't.. obviously you can not tag an animal if you are not standing directly over it.. understandably it takes time to travel to it, track it etc.. as per the definition of immediately, it means now, without delay and without any intervening time or space. .. which is where the term immediate comes in.. they don't want people to shoot an animal, call their buddy , meet for breakfast, go back home to load up the quad, then go out in 2 hours to try to find that downed animal.. i believe the term is meant to bring on an immediate attempt to track, locate and tag the animal. that is how i was taught to interpret that section of the regs and the term immediately when it is used in this scenario..

So here is the link for the Ontario Fish and Wildlife Act:
https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/97f41
and the Hunting Regulations :
https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/980665#BK2

There is a section in the hunting regulations devoted to hunting in a party and a section specific stipulates this very issue:

22.1 If a member of a party kills a species of big game under the authority of a licence that is held by another member of the party, the holder of the licence shall,
(a) immediately after the kill and at the site of the kill attach the seal provided with the licence or licence tag to the wildlife in the manner indicated on the seal; and
(b) keep the seal attached to the wildlife while it is being transported. O. Reg. 32/04, s. 4; O. Reg. 54/10, s. 7.

This is how the situation you guys are talking about is going to be judged on. In my opinion, there has to be three conditions for the immediate tagging to enforced. One, the hunter has to be in a party and the party has to have a proper seal for the animal killed. Two, the hunter(s) have to be have killed the animal and at the kill site. Three, the seal has to be present for the tagging. Gilroy has presented a condition where the seal has to be humped through terrain. Until the seal is actually present, the condition of immediate doesn't qualify. Now once the seal gets there, any delay on tagging the animal, you run the risk of a CO charging you. For example, I am sure the CO wouldn't care if the guy who had to hump 4km stopped to catch his breath, especially if he is an elderly person (but I would ask if he really had to walk 4km or if there were other options, like an atv ride, to go get him simply so he didn't have to walk that distance). However, if the guy stopped to open a congratulatory beer after his walk rather than the seal, well, then the CO could decide to lay a charge depending on his mood. Most groups have the tag owner/holder somewhere in the middle of the group so they can get to the kill site with the least amount of fuss.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by buckluck_9pt

see this is where i disagree.... respectfully of course.. people think that the term immediately means the second you kill you have to tag it.. it doesn't.. obviously you can not tag an animal if you are not standing directly over it.. understandably it takes time to travel to it, track it etc.. as per the definition of immediately, it means now, without delay and without any intervening time or space. .. which is where the term immediate comes in.. they don't want people to shoot an animal, call their buddy , meet for breakfast, go back home to load up the quad, then go out in 2 hours to try to find that downed animal.. i believe the term is meant to bring on an immediate attempt to track, locate and tag the animal. that is how i was taught to interpret that section of the regs and the term immediately when it is used in this scenario..

---

So, are you saying that a guy that arrows a deer badly, and backs out for 6-8 hours has committed an offence ?

If Im not mistaken the word "immediately" in this case/context is "Tag it immediately once its found". The law is pretty clear that we have to do everything we can to recover fatality shot animals and those that are just wounded. That's not always possible for many reasons. You shoot a trophy buck, it runs 200 yards into a raging near freezing river. Gets caught in a couple rocks, deadfall. You know exactly where it is, you know its dead. You also know trying to recover it, you very well could end up dead to........

Do I always agree with it?
nope, especially after tracking a bear one night in deep bush with no audible death moan.
No way to know if its dead or very much alive and seriously angry at the world.
Getting it out of the bush and to the road where there was some light so it could put in the back of the truck was not fun.
Could easily lose the tag while dragging it.

Oh hello officer you say when you clear the bush at the roadside where the truck is..........How your evening?
The CO looking for a tag and not seeing one is thinking "a lot better than yours"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dythbringer

So here is the link for the Ontario Fish and Wildlife Act:
https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/97f41
and the Hunting Regulations :
https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/980665#BK2

There is a section in the hunting regulations devoted to hunting in a party and a section specific stipulates this very issue:

22.1 If a member of a party kills a species of big game under the authority of a licence that is held by another member of the party, the holder of the licence shall,
(a) immediately after the kill and at the site of the kill attach the seal provided with the licence or licence tag to the wildlife in the manner indicated on the seal; and
(b) keep the seal attached to the wildlife while it is being transported. O. Reg. 32/04, s. 4; O. Reg. 54/10, s. 7.

This is how the situation you guys are talking about is going to be judged on. In my opinion, there has to be three conditions for the immediate tagging to enforced. One, the hunter has to be in a party and the party has to have a proper seal for the animal killed. Two, the hunter(s) have to be have killed the animal and at the kill site. Three, the seal has to be present for the tagging. Gilroy has presented a condition where the seal has to be humped through terrain. Until the seal is actually present, the condition of immediate doesn't qualify. Now once the seal gets there, any delay on tagging the animal, you run the risk of a CO charging you. For example, I am sure the CO wouldn't care if the guy who had to hump 4km stopped to catch his breath, especially if he is an elderly person (but I would if he had to walk 4km or if there were other options, like an atv ride, to go get him simply so he didn't have to walk that distance). However, if the guy stopped to open a congratulatory beer after his walk rather than the seal, well, then the CO could decide to lay a charge depending on his mood. Most groups have the tag owner/holder somewhere in the middle of the group so they can get to the kill site with the least amount of fuss.

---

exactly.. thank you, i couldn't have said it better.. and a lot of people have to realize too, that most CO's will try to figure out by talking to you and the party as to what happened to determine if there was that attempt to immediately retrieve and tag that animal.. sometimes we take what is in black and white a little too much to heart.. 99% of the CO's know that there is adrenaline and excitement, not to mention fatigue from what could be a long hike to get that animal.. most people would take a breather and stop to admire their kill.. if a CO happens to be watching, if you take 5 minutes to rest and admire before tagging, most wouldn't do anything... here's an example.. by some people's terms of immediate, literally 99% of all hunters could be charged by not immediately tagging an animal.. think about it.. what do we all do after shooting a deer or bear, etc? we give that animal a half hour or hour, sometimes more if we determine by the blood on an arrow if it was a poor hit... by some's interpretation of the law, that would not be an immediate course to track and tag... but, we also have to give the animal time to expire, so again, you have to take the term immediate into perspective...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by buckluck_9pt

exactly.. thank you, i couldn't have said it better.. and a lot of people have to realize too, that most CO's will try to figure out by talking to you and the party as to what happened to determine if there was that attempt to immediately retrieve and tag that animal.. sometimes we take what is in black and white a little too much to heart.. 99% of the CO's know that there is adrenaline and excitement, not to mention fatigue from what could be a long hike to get that animal.. most people would take a breather and stop to admire their kill.. if a CO happens to be watching, if you take 5 minutes to rest and admire before tagging, most wouldn't do anything... here's an example.. by some people's terms of immediate, literally 99% of all hunters could be charged by not immediately tagging an animal.. think about it.. what do we all do after shooting a deer or bear, etc? we give that animal a half hour or hour, sometimes more if we determine by the blood on an arrow if it was a poor hit... by some's interpretation of the law, that would not be an immediate course to track and tag... but, we also have to give the animal time to expire, so again, you have to take the term immediate into perspective...

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But we aren't talking of time to get to the kill site (that is covered under the spoilage part of the FWCA) but the term immediate in context of tagging a downed animal in a party hunting situation. The regulations state immediately after the kill and at the site of the kill. So whether it takes you 5 mins or 4 hours to get to where the animal died is irrelevant in regards to tagging the animal but if you get to the site where the animal expired and start to dick around, then you are entering a grey area and you are at the whim of the CO at that point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

So, are you saying that a guy that arrows a deer badly, and backs out for 6-8 hours has committed an offence ?

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no, god, actually the contrary.. okay, i don't mean to ruffle feathers or cause heartaches, i rather enjoy these honest, open , friendly conversations.. .lol.. but i agree with this, i will give you my scenario every single time i hunt, i will give you my scenario when i shot my buck this november.. i shot him at 45 yards but when he ran i saw my bolt still sticking out of him.. he ran and jumped the creek and i saw my bolt break off.. he did tumble and fall but i lost sight of him. i still had my tag but i still called my buddy hunting about 150 yards from me to let him know ( i wanted him to know i would be getting down and looking around ).. he said he saw him fall but wasn't 100% if he was dead or not.. i agreed as the position of my bolt had me worried.. so , i got down, met him, and we looked for sign of blood to see if it was a good hit or not.. didn't find any.. so, we stood and talked for 10 minutes, keeping an eye on where we last saw him ( in case he got up and walked off)... didn't see anything, so we started to track him , in this case, we just started walking slowly to where we last saw him... ended up coming over a crest and see him laying there.. walked up, confirmed he was dead ( nudged him a few times on the rump with our foot), high fived and then tagged him, drug him out and took pictures then field dressed him... i do this every time, give him a few minutes, get down to find blood and/or bolt and analyze the blood and see if it's a good hit or not.. always give them time to expire, otherwise you just push them over and over and before you know it you're on someone else's property which opens up a whole new can of worms.. so, short story, no i don't believe allowing anyone time to allow the animal to die, is commiting an offense.. now, they would be if they didn't make an attempt to track or find sign of what kind of shot they are dealing with.. this is why i always get down and find my bolt or signs of blood to see what kind of a shot i am dealing with so i know roughly how much time to allow that animal to expire..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

I agree with JBen. The big difference is, they were actively "hunting", with firearms, with full intent of killing the deer.

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No, sorry but just simply no.

What you just said is the same as saying that someone is actively hunting deer with an antlered only tag in hand. They kick up a doe and it runs on to the road and gets hit by a car, they are now poachers for scaring that deer into a car and being killed.

They are actively hunting and they have a hunting license for that but they did not even pull the trigger, this was not a mistaken identity, this was not a ricochet hitting a deer, they were not even close to where the deer was when it ran into a fence and killed itself, this has nothing to do with them and their hunting.

If you are driving into your hunting camp on the Saturday before the Monday opener and you hit a deer with your truck, you cannot use a tag for it as it is not the season, you can claim it. Now on Monday you are driving and you hit a deer, do the rules change because there is now an active hunt and you are heading into your hunting location?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JBen

If Im not mistaken the word "immediately" in this case/context is "Tag it immediately once its found". The law is pretty clear that we have to do everything we can to recover fatality shot animals and those that are just wounded. That's not always possible for many reasons. You shoot a trophy buck, it runs 200 yards into a raging near freezing river. Gets caught in a couple rocks, deadfall. You know exactly where it is, you know its dead. You also know trying to recover it, you very well could end up dead to........

Do I always agree with it?
nope, especially after tracking a bear one night in deep bush with no audible death moan.
No way to know if its dead or very much alive and seriously angry at the world.
Getting it out of the bush and to the road where there was some light so it could put in the back of the truck was not fun.
Could easily lose the tag while dragging it.

Oh hello officer you say when you clear the bush at the roadside where the truck is..........How your evening?
The CO looking for a tag and not seeing one is thinking "a lot better than yours"

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Exactly! "Immediately" can mean different things depending on the circumstances....party hunting pretty much eliminates the possibility of "immediately". Once an animal has been shot, the shooter must notify all party members of the kill. At that point, the tag holder, if not the shooter must make his/her way to the kill site, and once there, immediately place the tag on the animal.......period! The post that started this, was that the game could not be field dressed before the tag is affixed. There is simply no mention of this offence in the Act.
Any CO that has worked in the north, knows full well that the tag may take some time to arrive at the kill site. All circumstances will be considered by the investigator, before any charges are laid. However, the field dressing of the animal won't play into the equation when any time between the kill and the tag getting to the site is justified. It may, if the shooter is the tag holder.
The intent of the legislation is to ensure a game animal is tagged before removal from the kill site, and certainly during transport of that animal.

Back to what is, and what isn't hunting.

Theres the letter of the law, and........ the COs discretion.

Just because your a "photographer" talking pics of a buck, that then runs into traffic and gets smoked...Doesnt mean your going to charged with hunting without.....Just means at that point in time, you meet the legal definition......

As with so many of these topics where the letter is either ambiguous and poorly defined, or maybe its clearly worded, and there is no grey area. Doesn't mean depending on what the CO sees or finds out that the book is going to be thrown at you.

Letter of the Law also says.
Out of Season fish must be released immediately. That is very clear. It doesn't mean in 20 seconds while taking pics, it doesn't mean in 10 or 5 seconds. It means immediately without delay......

And finally thankfully the MNR had to actually spell it out, and say yes, if you take pics of an Out of Season species.....Do so at your own risk, you are "breaking the law".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

No, sorry but just simply no.

What you just said is the same as saying that someone is actively hunting deer with an antlered only tag in hand. They kick up a doe and it runs on to the road and gets hit by a car, they are now poachers for scaring that deer into a car and being killed.

They are actively hunting and they have a hunting license for that but they did not even pull the trigger, this was not a mistaken identity, this was not a ricochet hitting a deer, they were not even close to where the deer was when it ran into a fence and killed itself, this has nothing to do with them and their hunting.

If you are driving into your hunting camp on the Saturday before the Monday opener and you hit a deer with your truck, you cannot use a tag for it as it is not the season, you can claim it. Now on Monday you are driving and you hit a deer, do the rules change because there is now an active hunt and you are heading into your hunting location?

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If, if,if.......if your sister had nuts she would be your brother!!!! Your response is totally different from the OP scenario. I would not want to test your first scenario in court !!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dythbringer

But we aren't talking of time to get to the kill site (that is covered under the spoilage part of the FWCA) but the term immediate in context of tagging a downed animal in a party hunting situation. The regulations state immediately after the kill and at the site of the kill. So whether it takes you 5 mins or 4 hours to get to where the animal died is irrelevant in regards to tagging the animal but if you get to the site where the animal expired and start to dick around, then you are entering a grey area and you are at the whim of the CO at that point.

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true, BUT the time it would take a hunter to get to that downed animal must be taken into consideration when trying to enforce immediate... if a hunter shoots a deer, elk, moose etc at 500 yards in rough terrain, understandably it will take more time to get to the animal.. .if a deer hunter shoots a deer at 20 yards and makes no attempt to retrieve it for 4 or 5 hours without attempting to find an arrow or bolt or look at the sight of impact for blood signs, etc.. then they are in a situation where they could be in that grey area and could be putting themselves in a situation where a CO might not believe they made that immediate attempt.. like i mentioned before, immediately at the kill site you must tag the animal.. we are all in agreement with that.. what i am saying is that a CO isn't going to come down on you for not immediately tagging the animal 5 minutes after shooting it if you have to lug yourself and gear 500 yards or so to get to the animal.. i guess what i am saying is that some of this " what is immediate fall under" has got to be left to common sense... if i shoot a moose at 500 yards at 10:03am , i won't get charged for not immediately tagging it if i don't have it tagged by 10:05 am, seeing how i have to travel 500 plus yards through rough terrain with my gear.. now, if a CO happens to be watching you hunt for some reason, watches you shoot a deer and it dies in the field 40 yards from you and you take 2 hours before coming out of the bush, look at it, walk back to your truck, have a smoke and a coffee , etc, then go to the deer 2 hours later to retrieve and tag it, they might come to you and question why it took so long, etc etc... we had many stories from former CO's in college, also by brother's friend's dad is a CO, or was until he retired a while back.. we ran a bait and tackle shop and had many coffee's with him , heard many stories and tales.. he knew i was taking the fish and wildlife program so he and i talked a lot and he knew a couple of the teachers i had.. asked him lots of questions growing up too, and man i will tell you, those CO's have one hell of a hard job.. like this discussion has proven, there are so many corners and grey area's that they have to watch and be aware of.. anyways, i am of on afternoons and have to high tail my butt to work.. keep the discussions coming guys.. . lots of good points being made... oh, btw, haven't had an email response from the local CO here I emailed.. once i find out some feed back, i will gladly post..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JBen

Back to what is, and what isn't hunting.

Theres the letter of the law, and........ the COs discretion.

Just because your a "photographer" talking pics of a buck, that then runs into traffic and gets smoked...Doesnt mean your going to charged with hunting without.....Just means at that point in time, you meet the legal definition......

As with so many of these topics where the letter is either ambiguous and poorly defined, or maybe its clearly worded, and there is no grey area. Doesn't mean depending on what the CO sees or finds out that the book is going to be thrown at you.

Letter of the Law also says.
Out of Season fish must be released immediately. That is very clear. It doesn't mean in 20 seconds while taking pics, it doesn't mean in 10 or 5 seconds. It means immediately without delay......

And finally thankfully the MNR had to actually spell it out, and say yes, if you take pics of an Out of Season species.....Do so at your own risk, you are "breaking the law".

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I think the difference between a photographer and the OP situation, is they had firearms and their intent was to kill a deer.

agreed Rick.
just attempting to add some context, where its "simple" to see/know the individual isn't "hunting" has no intent to hurt/injure or kill, and yet can be charged with hunting offences. The recent case with the two Yahoos that thought it would be fun to catch a ride on a Bulls back. The harassment charge was a no brainer. Shame the crown plea bargaining the hunting without a license away.

So if there are guns present (cased or not).....
Intent is pretty clear

Quote:

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Originally Posted by buckluck_9pt

true, BUT the time it would take a hunter to get to that downed animal must be taken into consideration when trying to enforce immediate... if a hunter shoots a deer, elk, moose etc at 500 yards in rough terrain, understandably it will take more time to get to the animal.. .if a deer hunter shoots a deer at 20 yards and makes no attempt to retrieve it for 4 or 5 hours without attempting to find an arrow or bolt or look at the sight of impact for blood signs, etc.. then they are in a situation where they could be in that grey area and could be putting themselves in a situation where a CO might not believe they made that immediate attempt.. like i mentioned before, immediately at the kill site you must tag the animal.. we are all in agreement with that.. what i am saying is that a CO isn't going to come down on you for not immediately tagging the animal 5 minutes after shooting it if you have to lug yourself and gear 500 yards or so to get to the animal.. i guess what i am saying is that some of this " what is immediate fall under" has got to be left to common sense... if i shoot a moose at 500 yards at 10:03am , i won't get charged for not immediately tagging it if i don't have it tagged by 10:05 am, seeing how i have to travel 500 plus yards through rough terrain with my gear.. now, if a CO happens to be watching you hunt for some reason, watches you shoot a deer and it dies in the field 40 yards from you and you take 2 hours before coming out of the bush, look at it, walk back to your truck, have a smoke and a coffee , etc, then go to the deer 2 hours later to retrieve and tag it, they might come to you and question why it took so long, etc etc... we had many stories from former CO's in college, also by brother's friend's dad is a CO, or was until he retired a while back.. we ran a bait and tackle shop and had many coffee's with him , heard many stories and tales.. he knew i was taking the fish and wildlife program so he and i talked a lot and he knew a couple of the teachers i had.. asked him lots of questions growing up too, and man i will tell you, those CO's have one hell of a hard job.. like this discussion has proven, there are so many corners and grey area's that they have to watch and be aware of.. anyways, i am of on afternoons and have to high tail my butt to work.. keep the discussions coming guys.. . lots of good points being made... oh, btw, haven't had an email response from the local CO here I emailed.. once i find out some feed back, i will gladly post..

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I think what you are arguing falls more under the abandonment of meat section of the FWCA. This is extremely loosely worded so that there is a lot of wiggle room for hunters to have the time to get to the kill site depending on the circumstances. For example, I am a shooter for a group pushing a block and I shoot a deer, as long as I don't leave the deer to spoil, I can wait until the group is together to go recover that deer and I won't be charged.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JBen

agreed Rick.
just attempting to add some context, where its "simple" to see/know the individual isn't "hunting" has no intent to hurt/injure or kill, and yet can be charged with hunting offences. The recent case with the two Yahoos that thought it would be fun to catch a ride on a Bulls back. The harassment charge was a no brainer. Shame the crown plea bargaining the hunting without a license away.

So if there are guns present (cased or not).....
Intent is pretty clear

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Yup!!!! Pretty hard to say you weren't hunting when walking through a swamp barking like a dog, carrying a firearm !!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dythbringer

I think what you are arguing falls more under the abandonment of meat section of the FWCA. This is extremely loosely worded so that there is a lot of wiggle room for hunters to have the time to get to the kill site depending on the circumstances. For example, I am a shooter for a group pushing a block and I shoot a deer, as long as I don't leave the deer to spoil, I can wait until the group is together to go recover that deer and I won't be charged.

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I wouldn't want to test that one out with a CO that's had a bad day. I know of a guy that was nearly charged for doing the same thing. The only thing that saved him, he convinced the CO that he was gathering up his stuff before leaving his stand to get the deer...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by buckluck_9pt

true, BUT the time it would take a hunter to get to that downed animal must be taken into consideration when trying to enforce immediate... if a hunter shoots a deer, elk, moose etc at 500 yards in rough terrain, understandably it will take more time to get to the animal.. .if a deer hunter shoots a deer at 20 yards and makes no attempt to retrieve it for 4 or 5 hours without attempting to find an arrow or bolt or look at the sight of impact for blood signs, etc.. then they are in a situation where they could be in that grey area and could be putting themselves in a situation where a CO might not believe they made that immediate attempt.. like i mentioned before, immediately at the kill site you must tag the animal.. we are all in agreement with that.. what i am saying is that a CO isn't going to come down on you for not immediately tagging the animal 5 minutes after shooting it if you have to lug yourself and gear 500 yards or so to get to the animal.. i guess what i am saying is that some of this " what is immediate fall under" has got to be left to common sense... if i shoot a moose at 500 yards at 10:03am , i won't get charged for not immediately tagging it if i don't have it tagged by 10:05 am, seeing how i have to travel 500 plus yards through rough terrain with my gear.. now, if a CO happens to be watching you hunt for some reason, watches you shoot a deer and it dies in the field 40 yards from you and you take 2 hours before coming out of the bush, look at it, walk back to your truck, have a smoke and a coffee , etc, then go to the deer 2 hours later to retrieve and tag it, they might come to you and question why it took so long, etc etc... we had many stories from former CO's in college, also by brother's friend's dad is a CO, or was until he retired a while back.. we ran a bait and tackle shop and had many coffee's with him , heard many stories and tales.. he knew i was taking the fish and wildlife program so he and i talked a lot and he knew a couple of the teachers i had.. asked him lots of questions growing up too, and man i will tell you, those CO's have one hell of a hard job.. like this discussion has proven, there are so many corners and grey area's that they have to watch and be aware of.. anyways, i am of on afternoons and have to high tail my butt to work.. keep the discussions coming guys.. . lots of good points being made... oh, btw, haven't had an email response from the local CO here I emailed.. once i find out some feed back, i will gladly post..

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I think you are starting to flip flop on your position!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

I wouldn't want to test that one out with a CO that's had a bad day. I know of a guy that was nearly charged for doing the same thing. The only thing that saved him, he convinced the CO that he was gathering up his stuff before leaving his stand to get the deer...

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OK, but you haven't made a move either way (either abandoning the deer or going to retrieve it). So how can you be charged with abandonment if you haven't actually left the shooting position? Also, your tag might not be the one the party uses to seal that deer. While I am not advocating leaving a deer which is either dead or soon to be dead for 2 hours, there isn't anything in the FWCA which states my recovery of the deer has to be within a set time period other than allowing it to become unsuitable for human consumption.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dythbringer

OK, but you haven't made a move either way (either abandoning the deer or going to retrieve it). So how can you be charged with abandonment if you haven't actually left the shooting position? Also, your tag might not be the one the party uses to seal that deer. While I am not advocating leaving a deer which is either dead or soon to be dead for 2 hours, there isn't anything in the FWCA which states my recovery of the deer has to be within a set time period other than allowing it to become unsuitable for human consumption.

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It doesn't have anything to do with abandonment or allowing game to spoil. It's the "immediate" tagging requirement. In his case, he did have a tag...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

It doesn't have anything to do with abandonment or allowing game to spoil. It's the "immediate" tagging requirement. In his case, he did have a tag...

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But you have to be at the kill site to tag for the immediate tagging requirement and there isn't anything in the FWCA which gives a time frame to get to that kill site other than the spoilage. Also, if party hunting, the shooter doesn't have to use his tag on the animal he shot.

While leaving a dead deer to spoil over night in 25 degree weather is against the law, it is unrealistic for CO's to think the minute a deer is shot at and hit, a hunter needs to go recover the deer, especially in a party hunting situation where the doggers aren't through yet. Should the shooter go to where they shot the deer and look for sign? Absolutely. Is he be expected to drop everything and go find that deer right at that second? That is very unreasonable.

I'm still howling about Fox's sister having nuts. Lmao. Carry on gang.

adds for food for thought, though I think to has been "answered".

Theres 2 minutes left of legal light on the last day of the season. A great buck comes in. You pull the trigger, it takes off.
30 minutes later you come down out your stand and start the track.

One hand, uh uh, season is closed
Other hand. Roh Roh, law says I have to do everything reasonably possible.
/grins maniacally

Last day of the rifle season, 15 minutes before last legal. Hunter shoots a buck. The only person with a buck tag left is 30 minutes away.
Hunter sits in the stand for 25 minutes.
Ruh Roh?

There is no way we can cover every possible scenario, every possible contingency. In most cases the letter (and spirit) of the law is straight forward. In most cases the letter of the law is very clear. But we know its not always straight forward, nor is it always possible. I have had to give up on a buck due to thin ice and the likely hood of recovery, and risk to personal safety.

Twice I have tracked bears with no audible death moan. Once at night and that was a serious gut check ( not to mention dragging it through pure hell and the risk of the tag coming off), and once for safety reasons the track was put off until first light. Late august if the meat spoils.........well letter of the law says X, common sense says Y. This track, despite being in daylight was a gut check to. It was beyond obvious we weren't going to find a bear piled up, despite lots of blood initially. No graze this........ We were going to find a very scared bear, or very angry bear that would need to be put out of its misery right quick. And the bush we tracked it through, well it could have been curled up licking its wound 3 feet away and we would not have known until we tripped over it...Assuming the first sign it was under your foot was its roar.......

Immediate tagging is pretty clear to, even to the extent when party hunting in terrain that isn't suitable to radios and signals.

In virtually all those situations, its the COs discretion.
"intent" or what he deems "your" intent is/was is pretty darn important, its extremely important in the courtrooms to.

I wish the crown had the "tested" the hunting without a license charge in that Moose incident. No doubt the defence would have argued "no intent" and because theres no weapons around defence could make a case. But the letter of the law is straightforward ( if you harass, injure, capture, or kill game as a result...you are "legally" hunting)

But these days, crowns always plea things away. Saves court time, saves the system $, and eliminates any risk of it not going their way.

Bottom line.
Letter of the law
COs discretion

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JBen

adds for food for thought, though I think to has been "answered".

Theres 2 minutes left of legal light on the last day of the season. A great buck comes in. You pull the trigger, it takes off.
30 minutes later you come down out your stand and start the track.

One hand, uh uh, season is closed
Other hand. Roh Roh, law says I have to do everything reasonably possible.
/grins maniacally

Last day of the rifle season, 15 minutes before last legal. Hunter shoots a buck. The only person with a buck tag left is 30 minutes away.
Hunter sits in the stand for 25 minutes.
Ruh Roh?

There is no way we can cover every possible scenario, every possible contingency. In most cases the letter (and spirit) of the law is straight forward. In most cases the letter of the law is very clear. But we know its not always straight forward, nor is it always possible. I have had to give up on a buck due to thin ice and the likely hood of recovery, and risk to personal safety.

Twice I have tracked bears with no audible death moan. Once at night and that was a serious gut check, and once for safety reasons the track was put off until first light. Late august if the meat spoils.........well letter of the law says X, common sense says Y. This track, despite being in daylight was a gut check to. It was beyond obvious we were going to find a bear piled up. We were going to find a very scared bear, or very angry bear that would need to be put out of its misery right quick. And the bush we tracked it through, well it could have been curled up licking its wound 3 feet away and we would not have known until we tripped over it...Assuming the first sign it was under your foot was its roar.......

Immediate tagging is pretty clear to, even to the extent when party hunting in terrain that isn't suitable to radios and signals.

In virtually all those situations, its the COs discretion.
"intent" or what he deems "your" intent is/was is pretty darn important, its extremely important in the courtrooms to.

I wish the crown had the "tested" the hunting without a license charge in that Moose incident. No doubt the defence would have argued "no intent" and because theres weapons around defence could make a case. But the letter of the law is straightforward ( if you harass, injure, capture, or kill game as a result...you are "legally" hunting)

But these days, crowns always plea things away. Saves court time, saves the system $, and eliminates any risk of it not going their way.

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Example 1, recovering a deer doesn't need to happen during hunting hours. You can recover a deer after dark as long as your firearms are encased. Same logic would apply to a open season versus closed season.

Example 2, is a variation on my argument of spoilage being the factor driving for recovery time; not some set period of time from time of shooting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

Kinda like party fishing.....nearly unenforceable!!!

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Not if you have a CO sitting back with binos on a migratory trout stream/harbor. They just record who catches what based on clothing colour.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

I think you are starting to flip flop on your position!!!

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i haven't flip flopped one bit.. i said from the very start that some people's definition of immediate is not just that, immediate.. yes it will take some time for some hunters to get there, while some can get to their game within minutes.. like i say, MY definition of immediate is that you are to make every immediate attempt to get to that game to tag it.. however, like mentioned by others, there are more than one scenario a CO will take into account.. did you make every attempt to immediately get to and tag that animal? how far did you have to travel? are you the tag holder or is the tag holder 4 or 5 kms away? etc.. some people say ( which i believe this whole conversation started) is that you can get to your game, take pics, move it, start gutting it before tagging it.. that is not the fact.. if you get to your game, tag it, immediately... now, as some say, immediate is going to be up to discrimination of a CO.. if you take 3 or 4 minutes to gather your breath ( again if you had a fair hike to get to your game) or have a celebratory high five before tagging it, no issue at all.. IF you decide to piss around, move it to a "better " spot to field dress it and start to field dress it ( i have known people in our old ML group that would always throw it on the quad and drive it to a field edge before tagging and field dressing it) , or even start to field dress it where it lays, then yes, you as a hunter have violated the term of "immediate"... those are, again, in my eyes and my interpretation of the regs and laws based on my experience, my conversations with CO's and my schooling when I was taking my introductory Law Enforcement in the Fish and Wildlife.. also with my family history in the law field ( mother worked for crown attorney and law firm for over 30 years) so, I understand how some of the regs can be miscued and taken out of context.. but i also know how some of these officers will convey those regs and decide to either charge or dismiss any wrong doing.. in this case , like many, I have emailed a CO to get their take on this and what THEY would do and how THEY enforce the term immediate when it comes to tagging.. not once have I flip flopped.. nor will I.. lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hunter John

I'm still howling about Fox's sister having nuts. Lmao. Carry on gang.

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Hahaha. Don't knock chicks with nuts....sometimes that's the difference between $500 and $100.
.........so I was told.

Last comment and I am out, Rick, there is president to the comments.

My father was hunting in a gang in Eastern Ontario, the neighbouring gang as well as their gang had no doe tags. A buck and a doe were run out of the bush by the dogs to the neighbouring gang, one guy shot the buck and the doe looked at the shot while high tailing it out of there, ran right into a tree and broke her neck. They called the MNR and they came to investigate, there were no bullet holes, the deer was dead as a door nail, the CO wrote up a note for them stating that it was investigated and they could have the deer.

Done and over with, they were not charged with poaching an animal they did not shoot, this is almost identical to the previous post.

Reading the rules is just so easy eh.

Bye Bye

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Originally Posted by RiverRat88

My favorite is one that comes from non-hunters not necessarily people against it just people that have no idea any of the rules or regulations at all... "you can't hunt canada geese! They're protected! They're called CANADA geese for a reason!"

I just smile and nod! ;) sure thing bud!

Sent from my SM-G925W8 using Tapatalk

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I've had that argument previously.

A number of years ago, a lovely smoked goose breast pate, made by a chef friend of mine was out at a lovely New Years spread.

A well meaning lady ( I'll use that as a term of convenience), shrieked in my face, and threatened to call the MNR, the Police, etc.

I calmly listened to her rant, then walked out to the truck and grabbed the copy of the regs ( the was before smart phones), and calmly inquired why it said I could take 6 per day?

There's a lot of hair-splitting and speculation going on in this thread but the only correct answer has been said a few times. Discretion of the officer.

It doesn't matter if the charge seems "unreasonable". It doesn't matter if the same circumstance has been given a "pass" somewhere else at another time. One CO might charge you for something where another guy doing the same thing would not be charged when checked by a different CO. You're just spinning your wheels trying to come up with a concrete definition of "immediately" when it comes to tagging an animal while party hunting. The OP has emailed a CO for his interpretation, but what he will receive is only that officer's interpretation. They won't necessarily all enforce things the same way.

In my opinion, "immediately" just leaves a wide open door for a CO to deal with each situation as he sees fit. If he suspects that a group is trying to get away with something or if they're being uncooperative in their explanation of why they didn't immediately tag an animal, they'll likely be charged. If another group somewhere else is in a similar situation, yet their explanation makes sense and everything appears to be on the up and up, it would likely be overlooked. Or maybe the CO is in a bad mood that day and he charges them anyway.

I have party hunted for deer for over 25 years and have probably been in dozens of situations where a CO could lay a charge based on the definition of "immediately" if he wanted to. You can't always follow the law exactly as it's written. When it comes to party hunting and "immediately", think about how a CO will see it, or even how it could possibly look, because most of the time you won't be within the definition of "immediately".

Bingo GW11.
what we think/feel about the grey, ambiguous areas. We aren't the "judge". At that point, the CO is. What he thinks our "intent" was/is, what he thinks about our attitudes/sincerity etc.....And if it goes further, than a JP is the judge. It's the way it should be.

Dyth, if the link doesn't work, question #186

Lol, sometimes I have too much time on my hands. Haha.

http://www.outdoorontario.net/AskMNR/mnrfaqgame.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JBen

Bingo GW11.
what we think/feel about the grey, ambiguous areas. We aren't the "judge". At that point, the CO is. What he thinks our "intent" was/is, what he thinks about our attitudes/sincerity etc.....And if it goes further, than a JP is the judge. It's the way it should be.

Dyth, if the link doesn't work, question #186

Lol, sometimes I have too much time on my hands. Haha.

http://www.outdoorontario.net/AskMNR/mnrfaqgame.html

---

The answer is what I was referring to. Recovering an animal isn't the same as hunting. You can recover an animal after legal shooting time as long as your firearms are encased (or even as the CO suggests locked in your vehicle). I don't believe it is a leap of logic for it to apply in same way in the situation you are talking about. Your shot(s) occurred in the legal season, the animal will either succumb to it's wound or survive. If it succumbs, you have to go get it.

I have a story of my first bowhunting season. I lost a deer. Last day of the season, shot was in legal shooting time in the later hour of the afternoon (not quite dark but close to legal, what I refer to as the magic hour). I made a shot which I believe hit a branch and deflected the arrow into a non vital area (not even the gut). Deer took off and actually ran by my buddy who was hunting a fair bit away. I had blood at the sign, not a lot but I knew that I had hit the deer. Radioed my buddy and told him about the deer and he said he saw a deer run by him. So we started to track. 30 mins past sunset we encased our bows (we both had soft cases) and continued. Tiny blood trail and we tracked for 250 yards. Now it is 2-2 1/2 hours after legal shooting time because the blood trail was so poor although we did manage to find one bed. My buddy suggests that we back out, let the deer lay down and come back tomorrow because we were starting to get close to the landowner's property line. We backed out and came back the next morning. No bows (after legal season for deer although coyote was open) because if we had come across a CO we didn't want to have to explain why we had our bows out looking for a deer out of season. I was gutted all night, I couldn't sleep. We got back to our spot we stopped the night before and started looking again. Found the blood trail (again very little) and followed it to where the deer bedded down. We started to approach to have the deer get up and trot away (I think a trot was all it could manage). Not a lot of blood in the bed. We lost the trail about 50 yards later and started to search and looked for two days. Now I believe I followed the FWCA and the hunting regulations. Could a CO charge me, and if so, what could he charge me with?

I would imagine all of us have a story like that under our belts. It still bothers me today. I won't give up on a deer which is shot. Not that any of us would. However, there are times when a deer is badly hit that an "immediate" recovery is impractical or possibly even dangerous (you mentioned the deer in the raging river a few posts back). I do not support guys not recovering deer because it is too dark or the deer went too far but recovering deer sometime is more complicated that simply going over to a dead animal and the law has to recognize that.

Dyth

Quote:

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If I shoot a deer 5 or 10 minutes before the legal half hour after sunset. I usually wait a half hour to allow the animal to lye down and die (to cut down any chance of pushing the deer). It is my understanding that by the definition of hunting, I would not be allowed to pursue, follow after, search for etc. that evening because one can not hunt between a half hour after sunset and a half hour before sunrise. My question is what happens if this was Saturday afternoon the last day of the season. Now I have a problem. I can not track the deer that afternoon or on Sunday. Would you comment on this situation please?

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Quote:

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In the scenario which you have suggested, it would be an offence to continue to hunt beyond the close of the season.

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Quote:

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If the animal was wounded and not killed, then chances are that it would eventually die and be eaten by scavengers. You could not continue to hunt and kill this animal unless you had contacted an officer who authorized you to do so.

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Curious, but no need to answer this. Its just a question that's being "voiced".

How often, while your sitting in your stand are you 100% sure, it was a good, clean, lethal shot.
Only time I have been is.
When it piles up in sight.
When its a bear and I hear the death moan.

Lol, hunting shotgun this past season, I hear my friends shots about 10 minutes before last legal. Figured I may as well start packing up, get my crap in the truck, he will meet me there and by the time we are done doing that, we can start tracking in the dark. Thats exactly how it played out. We headed out in the dark, all he could think about was

Was it a good shot? John Im sure it was, it can't be far. Thats all he talked about really...from the moment he met at the truck and while we looked and we looked and we looked. The more we looked the more doubt started creeping into him. We called it off and decided to come back at first light. We cut a trail through the bush as the crow flies to the trucks.

And tripped over the buck.
His relief was both audible and palpable and yep sure enough. One in the basket and one took out its neck.

But that wasn't the last day of the season.

Earlier I mentioned a bear track that was put off to the morning.
When we first checked around the station, the amount of blood was...tons...Great big pools and smears where it crawled over a down tree. We were all a little surprised we couldn't find it within 40 yards.....The guy that shot it swore up and down it was a good shot. Only 15 yards away, why wouldn't we think so to.

We started at 7am, by 9:30am and 2 miles into the bush we knew.
By 11:00 am, and about 3 miles into the bush the blood trail was just drips and drops, and then..................................

Thought I would add.
Do I agree with it?
Nope, this is one of those grey areas.

Can it happen?
Absolutely, to everyone.

On one hand Im sure all of us think. No way, Im not going to give up.............
But also I wanted to "point out" What if its not you? Its your friend that pulled the trigger 20 minutes before last legal, one of the party hunters........He swears up and down it was a good shot...Why wouldn't you believe him?
My friends buck. Despite one in the basket and one in the neck, we did not find one drop of blood. Not where it was standing when he shot it, not in the direction it took off, and not when we were scouring the ground. Then lol, we decide to come back at first light......and trip over the damn thing. :)

As the crow flies.
It was about 100-150 yards from where he shot it.

Me, I no longer hunt the evening hunt on the last day. Im done before hand. And this year was no exception. Dec 15 the migration was on, lots of deer moving in the morning finally after 3 days of blizzard stopped it cold....I was packing up by 2:30pm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dythbringer

The answer is what I was referring to. Recovering an animal isn't the same as hunting. You can recover an animal after legal shooting time as long as your firearms are encased (or even as the CO suggests locked in your vehicle). I don't believe it is a leap of logic for it to apply in same way in the situation you are talking about. Your shot(s) occurred in the legal season, the animal will either succumb to it's wound or survive. If it succumbs, you have to go get it.

I have a story of my first bowhunting season. I lost a deer. Last day of the season, shot was in legal shooting time in the later hour of the afternoon (not quite dark but close to legal, what I refer to as the magic hour). I made a shot which I believe hit a branch and deflected the arrow into a non vital area (not even the gut). Deer took off and actually ran by my buddy who was hunting a fair bit away. I had blood at the sign, not a lot but I knew that I had hit the deer. Radioed my buddy and told him about the deer and he said he saw a deer run by him. So we started to track. 30 mins past sunset we encased our bows (we both had soft cases) and continued. Tiny blood trail and we tracked for 250 yards. Now it is 2-2 1/2 hours after legal shooting time because the blood trail was so poor although we did manage to find one bed. My buddy suggests that we back out, let the deer lay down and come back tomorrow because we were starting to get close to the landowner's property line. We backed out and came back the next morning. No bows (after legal season for deer although coyote was open) because if we had come across a CO we didn't want to have to explain why we had our bows out looking for a deer out of season. I was gutted all night, I couldn't sleep. We got back to our spot we stopped the night before and started looking again. Found the blood trail (again very little) and followed it to where the deer bedded down. We started to approach to have the deer get up and trot away (I think a trot was all it could manage). Not a lot of blood in the bed. We lost the trail about 50 yards later and started to search and looked for two days. Now I believe I followed the FWCA and the hunting regulations. Could a CO charge me, and if so, what could he charge me with?

I would imagine all of us have a story like that under our belts. It still bothers me today. I won't give up on a deer which is shot. Not that any of us would. However, there are times when a deer is badly hit that an "immediate" recovery is impractical or possibly even dangerous (you mentioned the deer in the raging river a few posts back). I do not support guys not recovering deer because it is too dark or the deer went too far but recovering deer sometime is more complicated that simply going over to a dead animal and the law has to recognize that.

Dyth

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From previous discussions on here over the years once legal light is gone you are not supposed to follow up on that deer legally because you are still hunting after sunset, recovery or no recovery.The best course of action is to try and let the local CO know what you are doing and get some permission.I have no idea what would happen to you if a CO gets a complaint about guys walking in a bush with flashlights after dark and its you and buddy looking for a wounded deer.
Hence the previous suggestions to call a CO ahead of your search,now getting a hold of one might prove tricky.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GW11

There's a lot of hair-splitting and speculation going on in this thread but the only correct answer has been said a few times. Discretion of the officer.

It doesn't matter if the charge seems "unreasonable". It doesn't matter if the same circumstance has been given a "pass" somewhere else at another time. One CO might charge you for something where another guy doing the same thing would not be charged when checked by a different CO. You're just spinning your wheels trying to come up with a concrete definition of "immediately" when it comes to tagging an animal while party hunting. The OP has emailed a CO for his interpretation, but what he will receive is only that officer's interpretation. They won't necessarily all enforce things the same way.

In my opinion, "immediately" just leaves a wide open door for a CO to deal with each situation as he sees fit. If he suspects that a group is trying to get away with something or if they're being uncooperative in their explanation of why they didn't immediately tag an animal, they'll likely be charged. If another group somewhere else is in a similar situation, yet their explanation makes sense and everything appears to be on the up and up, it would likely be overlooked. Or maybe the CO is in a bad mood that day and he charges them anyway.

I have party hunted for deer for over 25 years and have probably been in dozens of situations where a CO could lay a charge based on the definition of "immediately" if he wanted to. You can't always follow the law exactly as it's written. When it comes to party hunting and "immediately", think about how a CO will see it, or even how it could possibly look, because most of the time you won't be within the definition of "immediately".

---

The only way "immediate" could be tested is in a court of law in relation to group hunting and its a shame that one hunter might not have to go thought that process because his story is better than another hunter.Where so much lee way is given to the interpretation of the wording I think that,s a problem.
Also remember where you have a group of hunters trying to explain their story miscommunication is very easy.Totally different from a solo hunter with his tag and its immediate use on a downed animal.
If nothing else this discussion highlights how the regulations can be tricky and you really have to study them in some detail.
The wording for encased (firearm/bow) after legal shooting time seems pretty simple until you read the definition of encased, a simple thing like not pulling that draw string on a gun sock or not having a draw string could get you charged.BTW This is one of the more common charges laid every year.

And so ultimately, it comes down to the COs interpretation, their discretion.
Say the wrong thing, do the wrong thing, or if he is bad mood or lets be honest. We all meet people who for whatever reason just rub us wrong, even though they might be good people, and no real logical reason for that immediate wrong foot.....Maybe it's just the tone of your voice in person or over the phone....

Me.
No way I really want to track anything, bump it or find it down but still breathing and not have the tool to do it a favour.

Or as mentioned. Your friends shoots one, he swears up and down its a good shot. My friends buck, he was convinced "good clean shot"....No blood at the site...not a big deal it happens....Off we go in the direction....no blood, not one drop...I was beginning to think ( Um.......). Turns out it was a good shot, but if we hadn't tripped over it on our way back....

5 of you go out looking that night or the next morning. Then a CO sees you coming out of the bush. Your all smiles, pleasant "hows your day officer"

better than yours

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

From previous discussions on here over the years once legal light is gone you are not supposed to follow up on that deer legally because you are still hunting after sunset, recovery or no recovery.The best course of action is to try and let the local CO know what you are doing and get some permission.I have no idea what would happen to you if a CO gets a complaint about guys walking in a bush with flashlights after dark and its you and buddy looking for a wounded deer.
Hence the previous suggestions to call a CO ahead of your search,now getting a hold of one might prove tricky.

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Definiton of hunting per the FWCA:

“hunting” includes,
(a) lying in wait for, searching for, being on the trail of, pursuing, chasing or shooting at wildlife, whether or not the wildlife is killed, injured, captured or harassed, or
(b) capturing or harassing wildlife,
except that “hunting” does not include,
(c) trapping, or
(d) lying in wait for, searching for, being on the trail of or pursuing wildlife for a purpose other than attempting to kill, injure, capture or harass it, unless the wildlife is killed, injured, captured or harassed as a result,

So the definition of hunting doesn't include any action for a purpose other than attempting to kill, injure, capture or harass it, unless the wildlife is harmed as a result. So if the animal is dead, how can you kill, injure, capture or harass it? Therefore, recovery of a dead animal after legal shooting hours is permissible because definition of the term does not apply.

Besides JBen's link from a few posts ago actually has an answer from a CO with a scenario about recovering an animal after dark.

When it comes to recovering a deer after dark my guess is that it would all come down to the wording you decide to use if questioned. "Looking for my deer" would leave more room for interpretation than "recovering the deer I shot earlier".

The blurry area is not knowing whether or not the deer is dead, but if you made what you believe to have been a good shot, you have every reason to believe the deer is dead. The minute your "recovery" is in question, like finding a bed with blood in it but no deer, back out and resume your "recovery" at a later time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dythbringer

Definiton of hunting per the FWCA:

“hunting” includes,
(a) lying in wait for, searching for, being on the trail of, pursuing, chasing or shooting at wildlife, whether or not the wildlife is killed, injured, captured or harassed, or
(b) capturing or harassing wildlife,
except that “hunting” does not include,
(c) trapping, or
(d) lying in wait for, searching for, being on the trail of or pursuing wildlife for a purpose other than attempting to kill, injure, capture or harass it, unless the wildlife is killed, injured, captured or harassed as a result,

So the definition of hunting doesn't include any action for a purpose other than attempting to kill, injure, capture or harass it, unless the wildlife is harmed as a result. So if the animal is dead, how can you kill, injure, capture or harass it? Therefore, recovery of a dead animal after legal shooting hours is permissible because definition of the term does not apply.

Besides JBen's link from a few posts ago actually has an answer from a CO with a scenario about recovering an animal after dark.

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I was alluding to this when I wrote it and did had not even read the CO question and answer. So recovery is allowed "IF" you are sure you have made a clean shot but how many people are sure of that? Which brought up my point about contacting the MNR prior to a search.Its mentioned right in the answer.


"If the animal was wounded and not killed, then chances are that it would eventually die and be eaten by scavengers. You could not continue to hunt and kill this animal unless you had contacted an officer who authorized you to do so.
Clearly, then, you should be very aware of the consequences of making a poor shot at an animal at the end of a day or season. Chances are that animal’s life will be wasted and that is not what good hunting ethics are all about."

So in your case you and I quote "I have a story of my first bowhunting season. I lost a deer. Last day of the season, shot was in legal shooting time in the later hour of the afternoon (not quite dark but close to legal, what I refer to as the magic hour). I made a shot which I believe hit a branch and deflected the arrow into a non vital area (not even the gut). Deer took off and actually ran by my buddy who was hunting a fair bit away. I had blood at the sign, not a lot but I knew that I had hit the deer. Radioed my buddy and told him about the deer and he said he saw a deer run by him. So we started to track. 30 mins past sunset we encased our bows (we both had soft cases) and continued. Tiny blood trail and we tracked for 250 yards. Now it is 2-2 1/2 hours after legal shooting time because the blood trail was so poor although we did manage to find one bed. My buddy suggests that we back out, let the deer lay down and come back tomorrow because we were starting to get close to the landowner's property line.

I would definitely have contacted the MNR for permission as you did NOT MAKE A CLEAN KILLING SHOT by your own words and there is NO WAY your not still
legally hunting after dark in fact your 2 1/2 hours after dark.I think you need to re read the MNR CO question and answer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GW11

When it comes to recovering a deer after dark my guess is that it would all come down to the wording you decide to use if questioned. "Looking for my deer" would leave more room for interpretation than "recovering the deer I shot earlier".

The blurry area is not knowing whether or not the deer is dead, but if you made what you believe to have been a good shot, you have every reason to believe the deer is dead. The minute your "recovery" is in question, like finding a bed with blood in it but no deer, back out and resume your "recovery" at a later time.

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I agree. The second your recovery turns into pushing a deer after legal shooting time, then you have to back out.

Dyth

What if its not dead, and honestly how can anyone be 100% sure they have made a lethal shot. Many threads asking if this is legal or that is legal all come back to this part of the regs. It's not for me to really say what it is or isn't.

A CO will decide first, no matter what we think
A judge will decide secondly no matter what he the CO thinks
or she
:)

What I can do, and what I do do.
Letter of the law, and COs discretion.

If I was a CO not sure which way I could say which way I might go on these topics, Id have to be there, in the moment, in the COs shoes, evaluating this, evaluating that and more. Other than to say as the MNR usually does on all these threads, grey areas etc. Yes thats against the law...

We can't possibly cover all scenarios, all contingencies.
Letter of the law says unliscenced hunters cannot aid a hunt at all.
can't call
Can't walk more than a few feet away from the hunter ( at what point are they helping a push)
Cant help with Dekes....Throw out dekes, and 30 minutes later when the duck gets shot their action led to the duck being shot the part where it turns to "unless its hurt/killed"
Cant help retrieve game. Unless its dead and tagged. At that point they are not hunting.
but do anything, take any action that leads to something being hurt or killed and you then meet the legal definition. After that.......up to the CO

On one hand the law says we have to make every effort to retrieve the animals.
On the other hand the law says at times we can't. have to let it be and let fate decide if it becomes worm and scavenger or not.....

Only time I know for sure that something is dead, lethally shot. Is when it piles up in my sight, or cries like a baby for mom for a few seconds ( A bears death moan). While I can't see the bear, I can hear that.


So, your friend shoot a buck in the guts. or maybe just high in the shoulder. He swears up and down it was a good shot, is positive it was. You wait until after legal light and the end of the season to start tracking it. Or you go out first thing the next morning......And its not dead.

You are not safe.
If you put the buck out of its misery, you've made things worse. You've killed an animal when the season is closed.

Now I am not going to say what I think is right wrong, what anyone else should do or how they should interpret the situation. Thats for the CO...

Me
I just don't put myself in that position to begin with. Last day of the season Im done usually by 2pm. That is my personal "last legal"
:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilroy

I was alluding to this when I wrote it and did had not even read the CO question and answer. So recovery is allowed "IF" you are sure you have made a clean shot but how many people are sure of that? Which brought up my point about contacting the MNR prior to a search.Its mentioned right in the answer.


"If the animal was wounded and not killed, then chances are that it would eventually die and be eaten by scavengers. You could not continue to hunt and kill this animal unless you had contacted an officer who authorized you to do so.
Clearly, then, you should be very aware of the consequences of making a poor shot at an animal at the end of a day or season. Chances are that animal’s life will be wasted and that is not what good hunting ethics are all about."

So in your case you and I quote "I have a story of my first bowhunting season. I lost a deer. Last day of the season, shot was in legal shooting time in the later hour of the afternoon (not quite dark but close to legal, what I refer to as the magic hour). I made a shot which I believe hit a branch and deflected the arrow into a non vital area (not even the gut). Deer took off and actually ran by my buddy who was hunting a fair bit away. I had blood at the sign, not a lot but I knew that I had hit the deer. Radioed my buddy and told him about the deer and he said he saw a deer run by him. So we started to track. 30 mins past sunset we encased our bows (we both had soft cases) and continued. Tiny blood trail and we tracked for 250 yards. Now it is 2-2 1/2 hours after legal shooting time because the blood trail was so poor although we did manage to find one bed. My buddy suggests that we back out, let the deer lay down and come back tomorrow because we were starting to get close to the landowner's property line.

I would definitely have contacted the MNR for permission as you did NOT MAKE A CLEAN KILLING SHOT by your own words and there is NO WAY your not still
legally hunting after dark in fact your 2 1/2 hours after dark.I think you need to re read the MNR CO question and answer.

---

Your assertion we were hunting after dark is incorrect. We learned the fact the shot was poorly placed the next morning when we came across the deer and it got up. When I took the shot, I thought I had it clean. So no, we were not hunting after dark. We were in the process of recovering the deer (which under the circumstances we were allowed to do). We didn't pursue the animal in the morning because despite my shot, it was wounded. Not dead. The night before we had a blood trail and followed it. We couldn't find it so we backed out so we didn't cross over the line into hunting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dythbringer

Your assertion we were hunting after dark is incorrect. We learned the fact the shot was poorly placed the next morning when we came across the deer and it got up. When I took the shot, I thought I had it clean. So no, we were not hunting after dark. We were in the process of recovering the deer (which under the circumstances we were allowed to do). We didn't pursue the animal in the morning because despite my shot, it was wounded. Not dead. The night before we had a blood trail and followed it. We couldn't find it so we backed out so we didn't cross over the line into hunting.

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Oh it was the next morning you realized you made a bad shot REALLY.You made a shot which deflected of a tree branch and hit the deer in a non vital area,not even the gut.Lets give you the benefit of the doubt here and say you found evidence the next morning you hit a tree branch.

The deer ran by your buddy that night and he was a fair bit away.Could you not assume right then you had not made a killing shot?
So you started to track for up to 2 1/2hrs and you decided to come back the next day, apparently not because you were hunting after dark but because
you were to close to the landowners property line.

There s a difference between a "clean shot" and a "clean killing shot" which clearly yours was not.In my opinion from your own description you were hunting after dark and at the very least you should have contacted the Ministry as is recommended.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JBen

Dyth

What if its not dead, and honestly how can anyone be 100% sure they have made a lethal shot. Many threads asking if this is legal or that is legal all come back to this part of the regs. It's not for me to really say what it is or isn't.

A CO will decide first, no matter what we think
A judge will decide secondly no matter what he the CO thinks
or she
:)

What I can do, and what I do do.
Letter of the law, and COs discretion.

If I was a CO not sure which way I could say which way I might go on these topics, Id have to be there, in the moment, in the COs shoes, evaluating this, evaluating that and more. Other than to say as the MNR usually does on all these threads, grey areas etc. Yes thats against the law...

We can't possibly cover all scenarios, all contingencies.
Letter of the law says unliscenced hunters cannot aid a hunt at all.
can't call
Can't walk more than a few feet away from the hunter ( at what point are they helping a push)
Cant help with Dekes....Throw out dekes, and 30 minutes later when the duck gets shot their action led to the duck being shot the part where it turns to "unless its hurt/killed"
Cant help retrieve game. Unless its dead and tagged. At that point they are not hunting.
but do anything, take any action that leads to something being hurt or killed and you then meet the legal definition. After that.......up to the CO

On one hand the law says we have to make every effort to retrieve the animals.
On the other hand the law says at times we can't. have to let it be and let fate decide if it becomes worm and scavenger or not.....

Only time I know for sure that something is dead, lethally shot. Is when it piles up in my sight, or cries like a baby for mom for a few seconds ( A bears death moan). While I can't see the bear, I can hear that.


So, your friend shoot a buck in the guts. He swears up and down it was a good shot. You wait until after legal light and the end of the season to start tracking it. Or you go out first thing the next morning......And its not dead.

You are not safe.
If you put the buck out of its misery, you've made things worse. You've killed an animal when the season is closed.

Now I am not going to say what I think is right wrong, what anyone else should do or how they should interpret the situation. Thats for the CO...

Me
I just don't put myself in that position to begin with. Last day of the season Im done usually by 2pm. That is my personal "last legal"
:)

---

You are absolutely correct. The CO will decide whether our actions are correct or not. We have to read the law and interpret it as best we can. When you shot an animal close to legal light you are to recover that animal under the spoilage section of the FWCA but you can't let your actions move you into the realm of hunting after legal light.

As for your example of your friend shooting in the guts at the end of the season, if you find the deer alive the next day, you have to leave it because if you kill it then, you have now crossed over into hunting and the deer is out of season. It sucks but that is how the law reads.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Oh it was the next morning you realized you made a bad shot REALLY.You made a shot which deflected of a tree branch and hit the deer in a non vital area,not even the gut.Lets give you the benefit of the doubt here and say you found evidence the next morning you hit a tree branch.

The deer ran by your buddy that night and he was a fair bit away.Could you not assume right then you had not made a killing shot?
So you started to track for up to 2 1/2hrs and you decided to come back the next day, apparently not because you were hunting after dark but because
you were to close to the landowners property line.

There s a difference between a "clean shot" and a "clean killing shot" which clearly yours was not.In my opinion from your own description you were hunting after dark and at the very least you should have contacted the Ministry as is recommended.

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Yea. It was. Clearly you don't believe me. We did what we thought we had to under the law for a recovery until it was evident that it was not longer a recovery. And yea I believe I hit a branch. It is also within the realm of possibility that I made a bad shot. I thought I had made a good shot and would find a dead deer. A deer shot through one lung can travel a long distance before it expires and leave very little blood. I stand firmly behind my actions.

Yep, also includes that evening. "what if".
You leave your rifle bow in the truck and go look for it. You find it, but its still breathing, so you slit its throat. Drag it out of the bush at 8pm or 10pm and a CO is waiting by the truck...oh oh.

Safest thing is to call the local, no different than when a buck makes it to private property.
Lol one area I hunt even gps signals aren't a sure thing......

So if theres any weapons present, the next day..whatever/whichever .Kind of hard to argue with a CO "not hunting". The CO may still be ok with it, understand its just a guy trying to do the "right thing".
A) follow the law ( make every effort)
B) Not let an animal suffer
And maybe let him or them go with a warning.
Don't know I'm not the CO and not there in the moment.

But by the same token I get why the law is written that way...bad apples and more.

Even though I already said which way I lean on this one ( I don't agree). Not going to put myself where its up to a CO and things I have zero control over, or a buck in that situation ( aka possibly deing a slow death) if I can avoid it.

Past experience would leave me to choose NOT to voluntarily involve the MNR with just about anything. I would call them if we made a mistake on a moose (i.e. shot a young cow rather than a calf) but that's about it.

I can't see them having the resources to deal with every bow hunter calling them about recovering a deer after dark either. It's not an uncommon thing.

Boy................. the internet sure makes me feel stupid......

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GW11

Past experience would leave me to choose NOT to voluntarily involve the MNR with just about anything. I would call them if we made a mistake on a moose (i.e. shot a young cow rather than a calf) but that's about it.

I can't see them having the resources to deal with every bow hunter calling them about recovering a deer after dark either. It's not an uncommon thing.

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I also don,t think they have the resources to deal with every bow hunter calling, but the heads up is probably appreciated.If you have called and they know what your up to they can probably write off the complaint call they might get if somebody calls about your activities.The fact you made the call would indicate your on the up and up and can ascertain where you might be the next morning.That then free,s them up for a possible real violation call that same night.

The last Moose we shot ran for a half hour and dropped 50M from the west boundary of Algonquin PP ,twenty minutes before last light. We hauled it out at night cutting a trail the entire way getting it back to camp at midnight without a CO or OPP Constable in sight. Just the luck of the draw.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

The last Moose we shot ran for a half hour and dropped 50M from the west boundary of Algonquin PP ,twenty minutes before last light. We hauled it out at night cutting a trail the entire way getting it back to camp at midnight without a CO or OPP Constable in sight. Just the luck of the draw.

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You were not breaking any laws why would you be concerned that a CO or OPP were in sight.

okay, so as mentioned earlier I emailed our local CO to see what clarity he could provide in terms of what can and can't be done to an animal before tagging ( someone mentioned you may be able to gut or take photos, etc).. also asked the term of "immediate".. this is what I got from him this morning...

Mr. Dezan,



Thanks for submitting your question, it’s encouraging that you are making the effort to determine correct information in order to remain compliant with legislation.



To answer your question upfront yes the first thing that the holder of the licence/game seal is required to do is attach the seal to the carcass. This is the same requirement whether a hunter is hunting under the authority of their own licence/game seal or party hunting. Legally this must be done at the kill site, prior to anything else, including field dressing, photos etc. See the following excerpt from the hunting regulations (Ontario Regulation 665/98 made pursuant to the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act, 1997)

22.1 If a member of a party kills a species of big game under the authority of a licence that is held by another member of the party, the holder of the licence shall,

(a) immediately after the kill and at the site of the kill attach the seal provided with the licence or licence tag to the wildlife in the manner indicated on the seal; and

(b) keep the seal attached to the wildlife while it is being transported. O. Reg. 32/04, s. 4; O. Reg. 54/10, s. 7.



The legislation does not specifically define the word “immediately.” Therefore the other areas we look to for a definition is the common English language definition and/or relevant Case Law. In this case the common definition is used and is as follows;



“immediate” = Occurring at once; happening without delay



If a hunter kills a species of big game and is field dressing the carcass without the game seal attached than a violation has been committed under section 22.1(a). If a hunter moves the carcass any distance without first attaching the game seal, two violations have potentially been committed.



As for wild turkey the requirements are the same as previously mentioned, see the following applicable legislation.

17. (1) The holder of a licence who has killed a moose, deer, elk, bear, wild turkey, wolf or coyote shall,

(a) immediately after the kill and at the site of the kill attach the seal provided with or purchased for the licence or licence tag to the game wildlife in the manner indicated in the instructions that accompany the seal; and

(b) keep the seal attached to the game wildlife while it is being transported and, in the case of wild turkey, keep the seal attached to the wild turkey until it is prepared for consumption.

I hope this response answers your questions, please feel free to contact me directly for any further discussion or clarification.



Regards,



Mark Curry

Conservation Officer

Ministry of Natural Resources and Forestry

870 Richmond St. W.

Chatham ON N7M 5J5

Tel. (519) 354-8112

Fax. (519) 354-0313

Mark has not given you any information we didn't already know. Specifically, nothing in the regulations prevent the field dressing of the animal, while you wait for the tag, provided you don't move the animal from the kill site. If the shooter is the tag holder, then yes, you must affix the tag as soon as you get to the animal.
As I said before, there is no such offence of not tagging before gutting. Adhere to the "immediately" part, and there is no issue. The offence is failure to immediately affix the seal.....
17(1) (a) - O.Reg 665/98

Fail to immediately attach seal to moose

Set Fine: $200.00

Total Payable: $240.00

[COLOR=#000000]The holder of a licence who has killed a moose, deer, elk, bear, wild turkey, wolf or coyote shall,

(a) immediately after the kill and at the site of the kill attach the seal provided with or purchased for the licence or licence tag to the game wildlife in the manner indicated on the seal;

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

You were not breaking any laws why would you be concerned that a CO or OPP were in sight.

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Not concerned in the least. I found it strange,though,that we garnered no attention,whatsoever. From some posts,you'd think there was a CO behind every tree just waiting for someone to screw up.LOL

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

Mark has not given you any information we didn't already know. Specifically, nothing in the regulations prevent the field dressing of the animal, while you wait for the tag, provided you don't move the animal from the kill site. If the shooter is the tag holder, then yes, you must affix the tag as soon as you get to the animal.
As I said before, there is no such offence of not tagging before gutting. Adhere to the "immediately" part, and there is no issue. The offence is failure to immediately affix the seal.....
17(1) (a) - O.Reg 665/98

Fail to immediately attach seal to moose

Set Fine: $200.00

Total Payable: $240.00

[COLOR=#000000]The holder of a licence who has killed a moose, deer, elk, bear, wild turkey, wolf or coyote shall,

(a) immediately after the kill and at the site of the kill attach the seal provided with or purchased for the licence or licence tag to the game wildlife in the manner indicated on the seal;

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Well the actual answer by the CO gives me more concern because if seems counter intuitive, he says you should not gut the animal before tagging as you potentially commit an offence.If we go back to my original example of hunting with an older hunter and he takes 2 hours to get to you with the group tag that is 2 hours where you are maybe letting the meat spoil and your also accountable for that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

Mark has not given you any information we didn't already know. Specifically, nothing in the regulations prevent the field dressing of the animal, while you wait for the tag, provided you don't move the animal from the kill site. If the shooter is the tag holder, then yes, you must affix the tag as soon as you get to the animal.
As I said before, there is no such offence of not tagging before gutting. Adhere to the "immediately" part, and there is no issue. The offence is failure to immediately affix the seal.....
17(1) (a) - O.Reg 665/98

Fail to immediately attach seal to moose

Set Fine: $200.00

Total Payable: $240.00

[COLOR=#000000]The holder of a licence who has killed a moose, deer, elk, bear, wild turkey, wolf or coyote shall,

(a) immediately after the kill and at the site of the kill attach the seal provided with or purchased for the licence or licence tag to the game wildlife in the manner indicated on the seal;

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This is what was stated by Mark Curry, C,O. therefore a violation is committed if you are gutting before a tag is applied.
If a hunter kills a species of big game and is field dressing the carcass without the game seal attached than a violation has been committed under section 22.1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Well the actual answer by the CO gives me more concern because if seems counter intuitive, he says you should not gut the animal before tagging as you potentially commit an offence.If we go back to my original example of hunting with an older hunter and he takes 2 hours to get to you with the group tag that is 2 hours where you are maybe letting the meat spoil and your also accountable for that.

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I agree fully. Any moose I have shot, not being the tag holder, has been gutted post haste. We have been visited by CO,s over the years during this process, with no concern. The only question was, where's the guy with the tag !!
I can see it, like I've said before, if the shooter is the tag holder. Even then, it's a pretty chincey pinch to charge someone because they hurried up and gutted the animal prior to tagging, if still at the kill site !

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaycee

This is what was stated by Mark Curry, C,O. therefore a violation is committed if you are gutting before a tag is applied.
If a hunter kills a species of big game and is field dressing the carcass without the game seal attached than a violation has been committed under section 22.1

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Ok, one more time.....there is no offence for gutting an animal before being tagged, unless the shooter holds the tag. If you are legally waiting for the tag to get to the kill site, there is nothing in legislation that prevents you from gutting the animal...
You can't physically tag it "immediately", because the tag isn't near the kill site. You must tag as soon as it arrives. There is absolutely no mention in the Act of gutting prior to tagging.

Letter of the law.

22.1 If a member of a party kills a species of big game under the authority of a licence that is held by another member of the party, the holder of the licence shall,

(a) immediately after the kill and at the site of the kill attach the seal provided with the licence or licence tag to the wildlife in the manner indicated on the seal; and
*********

From legalese to straight talk.
If a member of a party kills a big species under the authority of another members tag.

The tag holder without delay, shall place the seal on the animal at the kill site........

So long as the tag holder doesn't delay getting there and "immediately" places the tag once there, would appear to me that the letter of the law has been met. The letter of law doesn't say anything about what the guys there waiting can or can't do.....

In the end I think I'd want to be a CO and there so I could evaluate this and that.
Gut shot moose laying in fetid swamp water on a hot day?......Well the law does say, hunters are not allowed to let game meat spoil.

I think theres also discretion in the letters application and maybe its there because its near impossible to cover every possible scenario and contingency.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JBen

Letter of the law.

22.1 If a member of a party kills a species of big game under the authority of a licence that is held by another member of the party, the holder of the licence shall,

(a) immediately after the kill and at the site of the kill attach the seal provided with the licence or licence tag to the wildlife in the manner indicated on the seal; and
*********

From legalese to straight talk.
If a member of a party kills a big species under the authority of another members tag.

The tag holder without delay, shall place the seal on the animal at the kill site........

So long as the tag holder doesn't delay getting there and "immediately" places the tag once there, would appear to me that the letter of the law has been met. The letter of law doesn't say anything about what the guys there waiting can or can't do.....

In the end I think I'd want to be a CO and there so I could evaluate this and that.
Gut shot moose laying in fetid swamp water on a hot day?......Well the law does say, hunters are not allowed to let game meat spoil.

I think theres also discretion in the letters application and maybe its there because its near impossible to cover every possible scenario and contingency.

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Exactly !!!!

I think you could ask another C.O. the same question and perhaps get a different answer. They all interpret the legislation based on their teachings, beliefs and interpretation of the legislation.

I agree and in my opinion, it is not illegal to gut an animal while waiting for the tag holder to arrive. I would do it and fight it in court if charged.

At the end of the day, the judges will make the ultimate decision on the interpretation if it gets that far.

Why wouldn't you be able to gut a deer or moose before the tag arrives..... What would be the rationale for waiting?

What's the difference if the CO shows up while you are standing over a dead deer or moose that is not gutted or one that is being gutted, the same situation exist, you and the CO will still have to wait for the tag holder to be legal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fratri

Why wouldn't you be able to gut a deer or moose before the tag arrives..... What would be the rationale for waiting?

What's the difference if the CO shows up while you are standing over a dead deer or moose that is not gutted or one that is being gutted, the same situation exist, you and the CO will still have to wait for the tag holder to be legal.

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LOL The difference is one CO has answered the question and he is going to charge you.I guess you need to hope he does not show up.

[QUOTE=fratri;1022282]Why wouldn't you be able to gut a deer or moose before the tag arrives..... What would be the rationale for waiting?

well, based on what the CO said, you can't move the animal in any direction until it is tagged.. the tag must be affixed to the carcass immediately upon arriving.. so based on his interpretation of the law ( the one that really matters here), you can't do anything to the animal as even rolling it over to start gutting it is, in terms, moving the animal.. you can stand their and wait as you don't have the tag to affix it to the carcass ( if you are party hunting and awaiting the tag holders presence to tag it immediately)... once the tag holder arrives you must immediately affix the tag before doing anything to it... anyone can do as they wish, if they feel there is a different definition of immediate or if they feel that there is nothing in the laws to prevent them from doing so... again, maybe it's up to different CO's.. myself, i get my word from the horse's mouth, so to speak , and follow it diligently... my thinking is they do this so that there is less chance of poaching.. if you affix your tag immediately, they know you have full intent of using your tag.. probably too many instances where people would shoot it, gut it, get it back, hang it and etc before tagging it.. if you put in the legislature that you are to tag it immediately, it leaves the blame ( so to speak) on the hunter..
i would rather not be in a situation where a CO is watching me or catches me then i have to explain everything and try to fight anything in a court.. i will leave this alone as , to me, it's been answered by a CO.. if anyone wants to challenge it, it's up to them, i know i won't...

....The offence would be transporting the game not tagged. Turning a moose on its back is hardly "transporting".... anyhow, We have had encounters with several of those "horses" over the past several years, since party hunting was allowed, who actually work in the areas in the north where party hunting regulations can mean a lot of time between the shot and the tag getting there. They have all interpreted the regulation differently with respect to the "immediate" meaning. Basically, if you look strictly at the wording in the pertinent sections, it is impossible to abide by the law, where party hunting is concerned. One cannot be convicted of an offence, when the law cannot possibly be adhered to. With most regulations, there is the letter of the law, and more importantly the "spirit" of the law. Both are considerd by a court. We will just conduct ourselves accordingly. Our group will never allow a moose to lay in the heat waiting for the tag, without gutting it.

"Immediately" means without delay. If the person with the tag does not delay in affixing the tag, where's the offence?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by welsh

"Immediately" means without delay. If the person with the tag does not delay in affixing the tag, where's the offence?

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There isn't one. Some here would believe otherwise!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fratri

Why wouldn't you be able to gut a deer or moose before the tag arrives..... What would be the rationale for waiting?

What's the difference if the CO shows up while you are standing over a dead deer or moose that is not gutted or one that is being gutted, the same situation exist, you and the CO will still have to wait for the tag holder to be legal.

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Because it could open the door to a lot of situations..... After gutting the deer why wouldn't you drag it to the road..... And after that why wouldn't you put it in the back of the truck..... No tag holder around yet so why wouldn't you drive it to the camp.... And finally, why bother tagging it?

To me, it makes a lot of sense to not been able to touch it until there is a tag on it. Do I always obey by that rule? No, but I know what I'm getting into....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seabast

Because it could open the door to a lot of situations..... After gutting the deer why wouldn't you drag it to the road..... And after that why wouldn't you put it in the back of the truck..... No tag holder around yet so why wouldn't you drive it to the camp.... And finally, why bother tagging it?

To me, it makes a lot of sense to not been able to touch it until there is a tag on it. Do I always obey by that rule? No, but I know what I'm getting into....

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If a person was so inclined, he could do all those things you mentioned with any deer, gutted or otherwise!
If you satisfy the "immediately" requirement, and the animal is not removed from the kill site prior to tagging, anything you do waiting for the tag is irrelevant to the legislation.
You can even strip down and dance a jig in your gotchies while you wait, if you wish !

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

You can even strip down and dance a jig in your gotchies while you wait, if you wish !

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That would constitute a crime against nature (and possibly humanity) for too many of us. If there isn't a regulation against it, it might be time for one..... No one needs to see that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

You can even strip down and dance a jig in your gotchies while you wait, if you wish !

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Key point right there. If it's illegal to dress the deer before the tag holder shows up, then it's also illegal to smoke, eat a sandwich, or entertain lascivious thoughts concerning Scarlett Johannsen: each of these is an activity intervening between the kill and applying the tag.

Moving the animal away from the kill site is an offence not because you didn't tag "immediately," but because you didn't tag "at the site of the kill."

Yep. Once you move it from its found.........
And if you then start loading it into a truck, well now your into transporting.

What if some wild, crazy storm blows in. Be it a severe blizzard that might last a day or two, be it a severe wind/lightning storm that threatens to blow down trees. I was chased from the field this past December during the height of the 3 day blizzard. And we were party hunting, had a couple buck tags, doe tags. Myself I had my buck.

If a Doe had come in say 15 minutes before a tree falling nearby made me question my sanity. Would I have waited on the tag holder to arrive assuming it was a case of, she piled up in sight, a radio call went out "doe down, bring a tag"...

Doubtful
And if a CO happened to come by and they do check that area. "well officer, the tag holder should be here any minute, to tag it and then start helping to lug it back to the bike, so we can all get out of dodge asap"

What if...what if you go out for moose one morning and forest fire thats over yonder, wind change....and now its headingg your way...Gonna "wait" for th tag holder before you start dressing?
what if
what if

round and round she goes, where she stops.....

Theres the letter of the law, and a COs discretion with respect to application.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

If a person was so inclined, he could do all those things you mentioned with any deer, gutted or otherwise!

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I'm talking about the opportunist, the one that wouldn't go the all way unless it becomes easy and easier.... I believe this is why you should tag it as fast as possible and on site.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by welsh

Key point right there. If it's illegal to dress the deer before the tag holder shows up, then it's also illegal to smoke, eat a sandwich, or entertain lascivious thoughts concerning Scarlett Johannsen: each of these is an activity intervening between the kill and applying the tag.

Moving the animal away from the kill site is an offence not because you didn't tag "immediately," but because you didn't tag "at the site of the kill."

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The secondary offence of transporting without a seal affixed would be committed as well.

This discussion reminds me of an article I read a year or so ago in OOD. The author was hunting turkeys and had a jake come to his decoy. He shot the jake. Almost immediately, a gobbler came out into the field some distance away. The author explained how he continued to call and watch the gobbler perform. Offence committed???? You bet !!

Their are as many dumb regulations in our sport as their are in all other aspects of our society.That's because when committees meet,they discuss putting forth new regulations/legislation,stop signs,stop lights etc.They never discuss removing the dumb old rules which no longer apply, or don't make any more sense.
The MNRF just revamped the regs to "make things simple"
Under the new regs,when I go "pheasant hunting" in the Hudson Bay Lowlands, I will be allowed 10 pheasants per day.How sweet.
I think it is meant to throw off any visiting hunters.Point them in the direction where their are no pheasants,in this way, we protect our resident pheasant hunters who know not to look their.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by welsh

Key point right there. If it's illegal to dress the deer before the tag holder shows up, then it's also illegal to smoke, eat a sandwich, or entertain lascivious thoughts concerning Scarlett Johannsen: each of these is an activity intervening between the kill and applying the tag.

Moving the animal away from the kill site is an offence not because you didn't tag "immediately," but because you didn't tag "at the site of the kill."

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That would probably making "breathing" before tagging illegal too.
I can live with most of MNR's "stupid rules" - many of them have some good intentions.
Bu the "tag immediately" is one I have a problem with because sometimes its not possible,
and there already is a perfectly workable law (tag at site of kill) in place.
That this bit of stupidity is preached like the 11th commandment by some (OOD in particular) compounds it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Couliewalker

Their are as many dumb regulations in our sport as their are in all other aspects of our society.That's because when committees meet,they discuss putting forth new regulations/legislation,stop signs,stop lights etc.They never discuss removing the dumb old rules which no longer apply, or don't make any more sense.
The MNRF just revamped the regs to "make things simple"
Under the new regs,when I go "pheasant hunting" in the Hudson Bay Lowlands, I will be allowed 10 pheasants per day.How sweet.
I think it is meant to throw off any visiting hunters.Point them in the direction where their are no pheasants,in this way, we protect our resident pheasant hunters who know not to look their.

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It was to accommodate the hunters (and dog trainers) who are allowed to do a pheasant place and shoot in the open season. You are allowed to put 10 pheasants per year on land you own or occupy without MNRF approval.

The flip side is wild pheasant populations or places which do pheasant stocking (Hullett) are going to get smashed even more.

I guess my point was what's the difference? If you are waiting for the tag holder why can't or shouldn't you be able to start field dressing on site?
As some have said, it may be against the law, but doesn't make sense. How does the beginning of field dressing a deer/moose on site hinder the tag holder from arriving in a timely manner? It would just be common sense, start skinning, take pictures until the tag holder shows up.

The tag holder will still require the same amount of time to arrive whether you start field dressing or not. I mean if you are caught without a tag in the area (party hunting) you will be guilty whether the deer/moose is gutted or not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dythbringer

The flip side is wild pheasant populations or places which do pheasant stocking (Hullett) are going to get smashed even more.

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The limit in WMUs with release programs in place is still 3.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by welsh

The limit in WMUs with release programs in place is still 3.

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I stand corrected. I guess it is only the wild populations which will get smashed. You know the populations we should be trying to help. :)

Werner, the thing with the magazine, is that they are in the business of selling the news, stories, techniques, etc.

There was a big brouhaha in the news yesterday, because some female golpher went to pick up her ball. She placed the coin an inch or so away from the ball, put the ball down beside the coin. No spectator, no offical there saw or said anything. But some viewer did, he or she felt she had broken the rules by putting the ball back down .5in to 1in further away from where it originally lie.
Next day, she's assessed a 4 stroke penalty that cost her the championship.

Its one thing for a private citizen, hunter, angler to do something that isnt strictly what the letter says. Its another for a magazine. If the MNR says we cant delay to take a pic of a OOS fish...OOD, OFAH etc cant be doing that on the cover of the magazine/here.

IMO only, the letter does not say those waiting cant begin to dress it. Only that the tag holder cannot delay. There are plenty of other laws where they do make it clear...."spectators cant aid in a hunt"....In fact most laws if not all, instruct us what "not to do" vs "what is permissible", hunting and other. It might be splitting hairs finely but I guess at the end of the day, worst case scenario.

"Your honor, can you see in the regs where it says, we cant begin to field dress it, while waiting"?

I wonder if some of the difference of opinion on the issue of "immediately tagging" when is comes to party hunting is because of how it's done in the big woods compared to farmland...etc. Party hunting to some might mean a group of two or three on a 100 acre farm where hunters are a never more than a few minutes away from each other and the walking is easy. A lot of people are strictly solo hunters. Some of us hunt big woods camps where groups of 12 or more are common and the sheer logistics involved in getting a tag to the animal is sometimes a big chore in itself. I've hunted in these large groups and there are many factors involved in whose tag goes on what animal and in what order. There's the question of who is able-bodied enough to get to a certain spot, how many antlerless tags the group has, whose antlerless tag will be used first, what happens when a buck is shot and so forth. A deer (or moose) could lay for hours before it all gets sorted out and the tag finally gets where its supposed to. The idea of "immediately" is almost laughable unless the shooter is also the tagger. That's the exception rather than the rule most of the time because the folks that only hunt one week of gun season are usually the first to give up their tags.

As with so many disagreements on this site, it's important to remember that Ontario is huge and it's not done the same all over the province. It's also important to remember that certain things are enforced more heavily in some areas where it's not such a big deal in others. I imagine that tagging "immediately" would be enforced more strictly in SW Ontario than it would in the Haliburton Highlands.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GW11

I wonder if some of the difference of opinion on the issue of "immediately tagging" when is comes to party hunting is because of how it's done in the big woods compared to farmland...etc. Party hunting to some might mean a group of two or three on a 100 acre farm where hunters are a never more than a few minutes away from each other and the walking is easy. A lot of people are strictly solo hunters. Some of us hunt big woods camps where groups of 12 or more are common and the sheer logistics involved in getting a tag to the animal is sometimes a big chore in itself. I've hunted in these large groups and there are many factors involved in whose tag goes on what animal and in what order. There's the question of who is able-bodied enough to get to a certain spot, how many antlerless tags the group has, whose antlerless tag will be used first, what happens when a buck is shot and so forth. A deer (or moose) could lay for hours before it all gets sorted out and the tag finally gets where its supposed to. The idea of "immediately" is almost laughable unless the shooter is also the tagger. That's the exception rather than the rule most of the time because the folks that only hunt one week of gun season are usually the first to give up their tags.

As with so many disagreements on this site, it's important to remember that Ontario is huge and it's not done the same all over the province. It's also important to remember that certain things are enforced more heavily in some areas where it's not such a big deal in others. I imagine that tagging "immediately" would be enforced more strictly in SW Ontario than it would in the Haliburton Highlands.

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I agree. I think with technology in this day and age, everyone having a picture of the seal to show a CO on their cell phone (or even a printed copy of a picture of the seal) would go along way if you run into a situation where spoilage is going to become an issue before the seal gets to the animal. Also, there is a huge difference in explaining to a CO why you are field dressing an animal in 25 degree weather without a seal on it while you are waiting for the seal holder to get to the kill site versus a group which has dropped a moose and all the members are at the kill site and the CO comes across it and they start to scramble to explain why the moose isn't properly sealed.

I think most of these alleged or perceived offences come from rumour and possibly bad charges laid by CO,s.
It's one thing to read the regulations as the OP stated, but it's an entirely different matter than actually reading the sections in the Act, and understand what they mean. Most come down to definitions actually in the Act, common law definitions and/or previous case law. It's not a simple matter of reading the yearly regulations, which are only a summary of the various Acts.

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Originally Posted by fratri

I guess my point was what's the difference? If you are waiting for the tag holder why can't or shouldn't you be able to start field dressing on site?
As some have said, it may be against the law, but doesn't make sense. How does the beginning of field dressing a deer/moose on site hinder the tag holder from arriving in a timely manner? It would just be common sense, start skinning, take pictures until the tag holder shows the up.

The tag holder will still require the same amount of time to arrive whether you start field dressing or not. I mean if you are caught without a tag in the area (party hunting) you will be guilty whether the deer/moose is gutted or not.

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I think the reasoning was that with moose especially too many "tags" were at work and not actually out hunting with the group.

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I think the reasoning was that with moose especially too many "tags" were at work and not actually out hunting with the group.

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Not sure what gutting an animal immediately while waiting for a tag to arrive would change in these possible scenarios. If the tag holder wasn't there or didn't "immediately" make an effort to attend the site and seal the animal, an offence would have been committed either way for which an officer could investigate and charge.

On and On It goes , where It stops no one knows, Wow! 15 pages of at times silly discussion.
Have to go out for more Popcorn.:D

Maybe reading the Ontario Hunting Regulations has us thinking it is ok to field dress an animal immediately after the kill, it is recommended.

copied from 2016/2017

Field Dressing, Transporting and Preparing Wild Game
Proper handling of harvested game will help ensure a quality
food product for the table. Always use a clean, sharp knife
and cutting tools and wear disposable gloves.
Big Game Field Dressing
Field dressing, or gutting, is the process of removing the
entrails (internal organs) from the animal to promote cooling
of the carcass and prevent the meat from spoiling.
• Always field dress game immediately after the kill.
• Move the animal to a clean site before field dressing.
• Roll the animal onto its back or side with head higher than
the rump.
• Cut a line up from the crotch to the tip of the sternum
(where the rib cage ends and the belly starts).
• It is best to cut with the blade up and out of the cavity to
prevent cutting into internal organs.
• Free the colon by cutting around the anus and then tie
a string just in front of the anus to prevent feces from
entering the body cavity.
• Cut around the diaphragm.
• Free the windpipe at the throat and free any internal organs
by cutting the tissue attaching them to the backbone.
• Do not cut open the rumen, intestines or bladder. If
punctured, wipe cavity with paper towels.
• Position carcass to allow blood to drain out.
• Do not wash cavity with water from the field. It is often a
source of bacteria.
• Prop open the body cavity to allow air flow and cooling.
• In warm weather remove the skin and apply cheesecloth
to help keep meat clean and cool. In cold weather you can
leave the skin on.
Transporting
• Avoid dragging game through water, mud or dirt.
• Wipe out body cavity with paper towel if dirt enters.
• Use cheesecloth to keep meat clean if quartering animal.
Never use plastic or tarps.
• Keep carcass away from engine heat, gas, road dust and
sun. Allow air circulation.
Hanging and Cooling
• Game carcasses should be cooled as soon as possible to a
temperature not exceeding 7oCelsius (45o F).
• Hang meat in a place that is cool and dry with good air
circulation.
• Remove areas of blood clots or tissue damage with a clean
knife.
• Use pepper and cheesecloth on carcass to deter insects in
warmer weather.
• If you are not processing your own meat, make butchering
arrangements before your hunt.
• I

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

Ok, one more time.....there is no offence for gutting an animal before being tagged, unless the shooter holds the tag. If you are legally waiting for the tag to get to the kill site, there is nothing in legislation that prevents you from gutting the animal...
You can't physically tag it "immediately", because the tag isn't near the kill site. You must tag as soon as it arrives. There is absolutely no mention in the Act of gutting prior to tagging.

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I totally agree. As long as the animal is not moved from the kill site, and the tag holder is immediately attending, then you can gut the deer or take pics or whatever while waiting for the tag holder. Maybe a CO may charge, but a JP would never convict.

Immediately means the tag holder cannot go get a coffee, cannot continue to hunt, etc. If he has to walk 2 miles to get to the kill site, so be it, it's gonna take awhile but as long as he is on his way and goes directly to the kill site, that covers "immediately".

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Originally Posted by brent

I totally agree. As long as the animal is not moved from the kill site, and the tag holder is immediately attending, then you can gut the deer or take pics or whatever while waiting for the tag holder. Maybe a CO may charge, but a JP would never convict.

Immediately means the tag holder cannot go get a coffee, cannot continue to hunt, etc. If he has to walk 2 miles to get to the kill site, so be it, it's gonna take awhile but as long as he is on his way and goes directly to the kill site, that covers "immediately".

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Party hunting in Ont. each member of the party has to have reliable and immediate means of communicating and be no further than 5 kilometers apart, and yes you can start gutting before the tag holder arrives, but if the warden shows up you better be able to prove you meet the requirments