ON ISSUE #28 - 32-per-cent hike in minimum wage rates will cause many small businesses to close

Even the Toronto Star is speaking the truth ...

"A 32-per-cent hike in minimum wage rates will cause many small businesses to go out of business, especially those of us in the labour-intensive restaurant industry,"
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/comm...-to-close.html
The provincial government’s recent announcement raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour in the next 18 months garnered headlines like “a good day for the little guy.” We beg to differ. The other “little guys,” hard-working and risk-taking owners of Ontario’s small business community, will have more bad days making ends meet.

A 32-per-cent hike in minimum wage rates will cause many small businesses to go out of business, especially those of us in the labour-intensive restaurant industry. Ontario restaurants have the lowest profit margin in Canada, according to both Statistics Canada and industry association Restaurant Canada.

The average Ontario restaurant owner has only 10 employees with annual revenues around $689,000. Ontario restaurateurs earn the lowest pre-tax profit in Canada, 3.4 per cent or $23,450 per year. This wage hike will cost them $47,000 per year.

...
Premier Wynne has backtracked on her promise to let the consumer price index determine annual minimum wage increases and keep it out of politics.



I talked to some friends I know in a local restaurant and they are just at break even, when you look at with $700+ electric bills (cooking, heat, water heating all gas and about 1/3 that), increases in meat and produce etc. Their plans are to not hire full time staff, but probably will replace the higher costing full time staff with several part timers (students likely as the lower pay option) and spend more of their own time working.

P.S. I stopped in at the restaurant near to my friends, seems the previous owner lasted just over 1 year from start of construction to selling cheap just to get out! .. and the new owner was already complaining about expenses and costs....

As a small business owner I was going to hire a second student or young employee but not now not worth the cost when comp,cpp is added

After spending months working on business investments analysis in Ontario and meetings with Prov. Business advisors, BDO and supply chain groups, I realize that I have never seen a more business unfriendly environment than Ontario Canada.

Over-Regulation and petty government fees at every turn, insane hydro prices, Carbon tax and unreasonable transportation regs, fees, permits, permit costs, permit bonds along with MTO rules.

If an Ontario business is 100% compliant I can see little way to a profit without unreasonable charges to the consumer.


If you make LABOR more expensive, businesses will find a way to eliminate it or reduce it as it is the ONE LINE ITEM that is 100% controllable by the business owner. So either higher consumer pricing, less hours for the employed, fewer full time jobs, robots or some other similar solution to reduce labor costs.

Pretty good video, if you got a few minutes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU

Humans not need to apply

https://www.therebel.media/dollarama...mum_wage_costs

Canadian discount retailer Dollarama is testing self-checkouts as one way to combat the added costs of minimum wage hikes in Alberta and Ontario.
Dollarama is investing $10 million into company-wide cost-cutting initiatives, including testing new human-free point of sale systems.

Slow clap for the people on here that don't believe people should earn close to a living wage. $15 an hour isn't even considered a living wage anymore.

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Originally Posted by Bonkers

Slow clap for the people on here that don't believe people should earn close to a living wage. $15 an hour isn't even considered a living wage anymore.

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Will you still have a "slow clap" when people lose thier minimum wage jobs? Better to make $12/hr than make nothing. When businesses fold and stop paying minimum wages, hydro ,gas, taxes, insurance and buying goods and services so they can operate how exactly is that going to help the economy? Sounds like you went to the Liberal school of economics where budgets balance themselves and it's fun to run defects and burden our children.

I could give a lecture in basic economics but it would fall on deaf ears. When people make more money, they spend more of disposable income. You spend more business's make more. For every one article you bring up saying that a rise in the minimum wage is a bad idea, there are 30 to prove that wrong. Let's use your "$12/hour is liveable wage theory"

$12x 37.5= 450 a week 1800 a month.
$1800- $1000 Avg rent= $800
$800- $175 utilites= $625
$625- $260 food = $365
$365- $300 Student Loans, Car Payment, Insurance= $65

On a very basic level you have $65 in disposable income a month divide that by 4 and you have $16 a week. That means for the majority of people in Ontario we can just put back $65 dollars a month into the economy. That mean's no retirement savings, no children because you can't afford it. No sick days because those aren't paid for us anymore, Little vacation because you can't afford it, basic medications if covered, no purchased house etc. You can't have a functioning society if the next 3 generations are broke. Even if we work fulltime. Those generations are suppose to subsidise the retired

A close friend started his landscaping business as a stand-alone self employment project that grew into employing 25 people (15 summer students) 14 years ago. Since then,between high fuel taxes,CPP contributions,WSIB premiums,corporate taxes,insurance and now this,he's shrinking his business back to it's original size of just him and his wife. He told me that he wasn't interest in a business that just breaks even at the end of the month after everyone else gets paid except him. The Liberals somewhere somehow got the idea that all businesses were benevolent societies designed specifically to supply employment and big wages instead of being in business to make money for owners and/or shareholders. Nobody owes anybody a job and there's no such thing as a free lunch.

Who in today's age only works 37.5 hours a week I worked more then that going through high school I don't know many people in my industry that only work 37.5 and I promise you every small buisness owner works far more then That every week .

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Originally Posted by Bonkers

I could give a lecture in basic economics but it would fall on deaf ears. When people make more money, they spend more of disposable income. You spend more business's make more. For every one article you bring up saying that a rise in the minimum wage is a bad idea, there are 30 to prove that wrong. Let's use your "$12/hour is liveable wage theory"

$12x 37.5= 450 a week 1800 a month.
$1800- $1000 Avg rent= $800
$800- $175 utilites= $625
$625- $260 food = $365
$365- $300 Student Loans, Car Payment, Insurance= $65

On a very basic level you have $65 in disposable income a month divide that by 4 and you have $16 a week. That means for the majority of people in Ontario we can just put back $65 dollars a month into the economy. That mean's no retirement savings, no children because you can't afford it. No sick days because those aren't paid for us anymore, Little vacation because you can't afford it, basic medications if covered, no purchased house etc. You can't have a functioning society if the next 3 generations are broke. Even if we work fulltime. Those generations are suppose to subsidise the retired

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Actually your grasp of economics is clearly left leaning and flawed. Those minimum wage earners are heavily represented as part time entry positions who live at home so likely don't pay rent. Pay virtually no income tax, certainly no property taxes. The companies that end up folding due to excessive wage costs actually did pay huge amounts of taxes and consumed far more than teenagers. You are either a dipper or Librano.

Terrym that's some of the largest BS i've read in awhile here

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Originally Posted by Bonkers

Terrym that's some of the largest BS i've read in awhile here

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Not entirely,Bonkers. He has the demographic correct. The problem is that the demographic can never excel at the minimum wage without working two or three jobs at the same rate. Your 37.5 hours is a non-starter unless it's a kid in high school or first or second year college student. Small business is who will take the "hit". They're being pounded from pillar to post with anti-small business Liberal policies. The Liberals are systematically destroying a very important segment of the economy.

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Originally Posted by terrym

Actually your grasp of economics is clearly left leaning and flawed. Those minimum wage earners are heavily represented as part time entry positions who live at home so likely don't pay rent. Pay virtually no income tax, certainly no property taxes. The companies that end up folding due to excessive wage costs actually did pay huge amounts of taxes and consumed far more than teenagers. You are either a dipper or Librano.

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Exactly right from my experience and what I see the experts saying (not the Libs of course), women and students will loose the vast majority of the jobs in mostly part time service and food industry jobs that will be replaced or reduced. Look at your local Metro/Lowes/Canadian Tire, McDonald etc. and they probably are putting in Self serve machines to "make it faster" and when even the dollar store is doing it we can expect it to spread with this ridiculous increase. They are talking 185,000 jobs ... how many small businesses too, especially in the light of the new Liberal tax gouging.

How long, with Tim Hortons already selling in stores before we see these
https://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...050593102.html
or these at your local Timmies?
http://i3.liverpoolecho.co.uk/incomi...JS74771331.jpg

http://business.financialpost.com/op...oing-it-anyway
Wynne’s plan to hike the minimum wage by 32 per cent would reduce youth employment by around nine to 17 per cent. Multiply that by the number of young workers in Ontario, and that’s 80,000 to 155,000 jobs lost.
..
remember that the 80,000 to 155,000 estimate is only for the jobs lost by young workers, aged 15 to 24. Add in all the jobs that will be lost by older workers as well, then add in all the jobs that will be destroyed by the other regulatory burdens Wynne is heaping upon workers with new labour rules to go along with the minimum wage hike, and there is no telling how much high the economic casualty toll might skyrocket.
...
massive job losses are worth the electoral support they will receive from the public sector unions, even if it’s a policy that will prove dire for Ontarians.



https://www.thespec.com/news-story/7...ess-coalition/
Minimum wage hike could put 185,000 jobs at risk, says business coalition
Keep Ontario Working Coalition warns that minimum wage increase will cost households an extra $1,300 a year.
...
He warned that muncipalities will have to increase their payrolls by $500 million to account for the impacts of the minimum-wage increase, which could be felt on local property tax bills.
..."It's clear the Wynne Liberals are avoiding doing this cost-benefit analysis, because they don't want to see the results," said Tory MPP John Yakabuski (Renfrew-Nipissing-Pembroke).

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Originally Posted by Bonkers

Terrym that's some of the largest BS i've read in awhile here

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Not that you would read this but what the hell.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.85f5411191ad

People are not more or less employable absolutely, but only relative to a given pay scale.

Therefore as "government" raises minimum wages a business owner must more and more consider skill and productivity. That alone harms the low or no skilled, uneducated and teenagers.

Raising minimum wage via government interference is a completely azz backwards policy if the real intent is to help the low income people.

When campaigning NCHA cutting and roping horses across the US, I learned quickly that everything costs the same to buy, feed, vet, haul and show a horse regardless of whether he was a superstar performer(money winner) or a goat. Same with race horses, they have to produce relative to their "costs."

Same with employers wrt employees. The more you pay an employee, the more he has to produce or he goes down the road. When labor costs encroach on profit, you just get out of the business

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Originally Posted by skypilot

Raising minimum wage via government interference is a completely azz backwards policy if the real intent is to help the low income people.

y

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It's not. The intent is to fool the uninformed into voting Liberal in the next election. Nothing but trolling for people who usually don't vote much or know much about politics/government. If she could implement a voting system where they could do it from a cell phone she would. She is desperate and the current criminal cases against her could be quite damaging. I can see the Sudbury case die but the email destruction case could sink her.

trudough has started to payback the IOU with the pot legislation. It allowed her to hand OPSEU a bunch of new highly paid new positions and no doubt Liberal party contributing contracting firms will make a killing building these outlets. They easily could be included in existing LCBO facilities but then her contracted buddies don't get to dig their snouts into the taxpayer trough.

I have never felt that this minimum wage BS was to help anyone other than the politicians, because it just doesn't.

Like you alluded to, it only fools the gullible and the uninformed, her base.

Kids don't have a chance at getting jobs now. This country is completely backwards

It really makes you think and wonder what is going to happen to all the smaller and larger retailers, wholesalers if and when , Amazon comes into this country and sets up business as has been reported in newspapers.

Just as an example, oil filters for mine and my neighbors garden tractors that retailers here want $18.95 to $22.95, we bought through Amazon @ $5.967 each for 4 , which we split between us.
To top this all off, they came from Tipperary Ireland, just doesn't make sense, yet Amazon still makes money and paying their employees , how much I /we have now idea.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

It really makes you think and wonder what is going to happen to all the smaller and larger retailers, wholesalers if and when , Amazon comes into this country and sets up business as has been reported in newspapers.

Just as an example, oil filters for mine and my neighbors garden tractors that retailers here want $18.95 to $22.95, we bought through Amazon @ $5.967 each for 4 , which we split between us.
To top this all off, they came from Tipperary Ireland, just doesn't make sense, yet Amazon still makes money and paying their employees , how much I /we have now idea.

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Ebay is already here amazon too

Here is something anyone can do, Never use self serve anything !

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Originally Posted by jaycee

It really makes you think and wonder what is going to happen to all the smaller and larger retailers, wholesalers if and when , Amazon comes into this country and sets up business as has been reported in newspapers.

Just as an example, oil filters for mine and my neighbors garden tractors that retailers here want $18.95 to $22.95, we bought through Amazon @ $5.967 each for 4 , which we split between us.
To top this all off, they came from Tipperary Ireland, just doesn't make sense, yet Amazon still makes money and paying their employees , how much I /we have now idea.

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http://www.moneyguideireland.com/min...land-2017.html
The Minimum Wage in Ireland increased to €9.25 an hour on 1st January 2017

At today's exchange $13.45 CAD


Ireland is prospering due to it's tax rates for one ...
Ireland has a 12.5% corporate tax rate.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/taxanal.../#181df0343774

In the article above the tax rate in Indiana is 35% and Ontario is 38% but there are some small business and other deductions.... but those will get reduced under the new tax changes, especially for small businesses! (See Fed issue #47)
https://home.kpmg.com/content/dam/kp...7-and-2018.pdf

In reality until this gov't gets tossed there isn't much you can do about it but maybe shop local small shops and pay a couple extra dollars, maybe sometimes less, to them or use a teller instead of the machine. At the current rate of stores closing or leaving all that will be left is Canadian Tire, Lowes, Walmart and a few struggling locals soon I think.

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Originally Posted by Rodbender

Ebay is already here amazon too

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What I was referring to , was Amazon's announcement that they are looking into building a huge warehouse in Canada , possibly in the Toronto area , southern On. This would then give them a much larger footprint into the Canadian market.
Their warehouse in Phoenix is 1.2 million square feet , the one in Fall River is 1 million square feet, just imagine the impact something of that size would have in Ontario.

Brian Lilley shows what an idiot the Labour minister of Ontario is .... in Canada 39,000 women in full time jobs lost jobs last month and they are bragging .... listening to the Liebral minster I can't even fathom how stupid some of the Liberal politicians comments are! The new one I found out about is that the one company is going to reduce workers hours to below the 20 required to get benefits and not pay benefits ..... and he says to just raise prices or control the input .... once again we see this gov't is completely out of touch. Federally we have an idiot millionaire detached from reality and showing contempt for a woman crying about hydro bills, now tax increases, increases to EI look like they are coming .... then in Ontario this ...think of a local town that has 50,000 people .... that is the MINIMUM number of job losses.

http://www.iheartradio.ca/580-cfra/p...6?mode=Article

I was talking to a guy today and he said he has had it with Ontario and is moving .... I wonder how many will be relocating.

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Originally Posted by mosquito

Brian Lilley shows what an idiot the Labour minister of Ontario is .... in Canada 39,000 women in full time jobs lost jobs last month and they are bragging .... listening to the Liebral minster I can't even fathom how stupid some of the Liberal politicians comments are! The new one I found out about is that the one company is going to reduce workers hours to below the 20 required to get benefits and not pay benefits ..... and he says to just raise prices or control the input .... once again we see this gov't is completely out of touch. Federally we have an idiot millionaire detached from reality and showing contempt for a woman crying about hydro bills, now tax increases, increases to EI look like they are coming .... then in Ontario this ...think of a local town that has 50,000 people .... that is the MINIMUM number of job losses.

http://www.iheartradio.ca/580-cfra/p...6?mode=Article

I was talking to a guy today and he said he has had it with Ontario and is moving .... I wonder how many will be relocating.

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You nailed it on the head. Everyone is focused on the new min wage but add all the federal tax reforms and private business as we know it is in grave danger. Everyone says "fight the big companies" but the reality is these tax reforms which are targeting the "wealthy" only help companies like Amazon, Ebay etc..

As the owner of a small to medium size company, if the new tax reform comes into play coupled with the new minimum wage we are strategizing on two different options:

1. Investment into robotics to fight off the increase in labour costs
2. Moving out of Ontario to a more tax friendly jurisdiction

I know not every small business can do this but there are some States that will give you great deals to move there. Which companies tend to leave? Companies who employ 50-100 employees. These companies have the resources and desire to move and move they will.

A short while ago,when Justin Trudeau stated on television that he "knew" most small businesses were owned by the top 1% of rich people who were using the small businesses as a tax dodge,I knew,right then and there,that Canada was in deep,deep.shyte.

Listening to more, the MP that Brian Lilley interviewed later pointed out that where the rapid increase in hourly wages was implemented the hours worked decreased (which the one company is already looking at) then he pointed out that in taxes paid it will go up $3600 too..... so let's see... $3.60 * 37.5 * 50 weeks , then $6,750 increase, minus the $3,600 and increased CPP and EI .....
Then the Fed's took away the tax credits for kids on arts, athletics, books and materials ..... more money into a bloated gov't machine that accomplishes almost nothing and wastes almost everything, private jobs go down and down, public jobs go up ... and so do debts. Seems like they just want everyone working for the gov't like the NDP seems to from comments in their leadership race.

People like these Lib's surely must actually think "Budget's balance themselves" Justin Trudeau

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/10...ada_newsletter
Grocery store chain Metro Inc. says it will eliminate about 280 jobs starting in 2021 as part of a $400-million overhaul of its Ontario distribution network.

The company says the move to modernize and automate its network will mean the loss of about 180 full-time and 100 part-time positions.

The announcement follows comments by Metro in August that it would study automation as it looked to cut costs in the face of the Ontario government's plan to raise the minimum wage next year.

Protect jobs by never using self serve anything.

radical thinking perhaps but if our fearless leaders didn't spent money like drunken fools and cheat us out of 1.2b on non existent gas fired electricity plants maybe they could drop the tax rate and accomplish the same thing.
just saying

I have used an automated once this year if I recall right when I was in a huge rush and really needed something. Twice at Canadian tire I left things behind with the girl at the automated tellers and said to have her tell the manager I was shopping elsewhere. Several times when told I could use the automated by someone I told them I can also shop somewhere that believes in customer service....

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Originally Posted by bardern

radical thinking perhaps but if our fearless leaders didn't spent money like drunken fools and cheat us out of 1.2b on non existent gas fired electricity plants maybe they could drop the tax rate and accomplish the same thing.
just saying

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An increase to the basic exemption would be a real good start all right, but remember this is the same party in the Ontario gov't that federally TOOK AWAY from students and kids breaks on tuition, text books, kids sports credits, kids arts credits ... and promptly got their trust fund millionaire leader who is notable for TAKING from charities (WHILE an MP) not donating and getting two taxpayer funded nannies.


...and remember by increasing their pay they are increasing the taxes they pay ... so making businesses pay so they can collect more taxes from low income earners while not helping them at all since all the costs go up too.

MPP spinning the sabotage and he is right .... alot of small businesses won't be operating a year from now with the revised business plans that include the new wages, electricity rates, carbon taxes etc.

http://barrie.ctvnews.ca/video?clipI...ylistPageNum=1
Barrie MPP Ann Hoggarth lashed out at critics of the minimum wage hike by saying business owners shouldn't be operating if they can't afford


but then and this is one of many many stories like this I have seen.

http://barrie.ctvnews.ca/my-life-is-...sses-1.3699940


https://www.simcoe.com/news-story/79...wage-increase/
'My life is really destroyed': Butcher blames high hydro rates for closing his businesses


Barrie Liberal MPP, Labour Minister talk tough over minimum-wage increase
Government responds to Barrie butcher's suggestion hydro rates, wage increase forced him out of business

“If you’re going to go out of business on the backs of your employees because you can’t afford to pay them this, perhaps you should reassess your business plan and whether you should be an employer,” Hoggarth said. “This is the right thing to do.”


...
The province has hired an additional 175 employment standards officers to enforce the changes.


Seems it WAS a viable plan up until the Liberal's started their sabotage to small businesses to me! 175 new hires to enforce the new laws .....ah yes, the Liberal way of job creation.

After 23 years Black Tomato to shutter; owner blames minimum wage hike
http://ottawasun.com/news/local-news...1-7f00683595d7
The restaurant, a stalwart of ByWard Market dining for 23 years, will close at the end of the month.

“It’s the minimum wage, absolutely. That will be an $80,000 hit for me, just in hours,” Besserer said. “Then you have to factor in the grey area of what all the other stuff that comes through the door is going to cost. Is it going to be 10 per cent more? 15? 20? Who the hell knows? Nobody knows.”

Ontario’s minimum wage, now $11.60 an hour, climbs to $14 on Jan. 1 and to $15 on Jan. 1, 2019. Besserer employs 17 people at the Black Tomato and says he simply can’t afford the increased labour cost. That it takes effect in the toughest month of the year for restaurants only makes it tougher.

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Originally Posted by mosquito

After 23 years Black Tomato to shutter; owner blames minimum wage hike
http://ottawasun.com/news/local-news...1-7f00683595d7
The restaurant, a stalwart of ByWard Market dining for 23 years, will close at the end of the month.

“It’s the minimum wage, absolutely. That will be an $80,000 hit for me, just in hours,” Besserer said. “Then you have to factor in the grey area of what all the other stuff that comes through the door is going to cost. Is it going to be 10 per cent more? 15? 20? Who the hell knows? Nobody knows.”

Ontario’s minimum wage, now $11.60 an hour, climbs to $14 on Jan. 1 and to $15 on Jan. 1, 2019. Besserer employs 17 people at the Black Tomato and says he simply can’t afford the increased labour cost. That it takes effect in the toughest month of the year for restaurants only makes it tougher.

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I personally know Peter Besserer and he is one of the hardest working people I know. His restaurant has a very good reputation and he is an excellent business man ! If he can no longer make it in the restaurant business then I will guarantee many restaurant owners will follow and shut down as well.

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Originally Posted by Bonkers

I could give a lecture in basic economics but it would fall on deaf ears. When people make more money, they spend more of disposable income. You spend more business's make more. For every one article you bring up saying that a rise in the minimum wage is a bad idea, there are 30 to prove that wrong. Let's use your "$12/hour is liveable wage theory"

$12x 37.5= 450 a week 1800 a month.
$1800- $1000 Avg rent= $800
$800- $175 utilites= $625
$625- $260 food = $365
$365- $300 Student Loans, Car Payment, Insurance= $65

On a very basic level you have $65 in disposable income a month divide that by 4 and you have $16 a week. That means for the majority of people in Ontario we can just put back $65 dollars a month into the economy. That mean's no retirement savings, no children because you can't afford it. No sick days because those aren't paid for us anymore, Little vacation because you can't afford it, basic medications if covered, no purchased house etc. You can't have a functioning society if the next 3 generations are broke. Even if we work fulltime. Those generations are suppose to subsidise the retired

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Hold on, hold on! Let's get a few things straight!
Are you suggesting that a person purely working for a minimum wage automatically should earn enough to rent/own their own place?
So you're saying that we should not motivate people to get an education or become a skilled trade by simply giving them more money so they don't need to think about ... you know ... actually seeking a skilled job that WILL provide a better salary?

My second point is, if you make labor costs more expensive ... automation becomes more attractive. The cost of automation is not increasing, it is falling, certainly as it becomes more widely used and overheads are distributed. So actually, this simply gives owners more reason to automate, and it is happening. The pace is going to pick up significantly in the next 3 to 5 years. What's the solution ... EDUCATE YOURSELF AND FIND A SKILLED JOB!

Oh and one more thing, so the minimum wage earner gets an increase of $3/hr ... so 25% increase. Where do they shop? What do they eat? How do they travel? And how much more does all that cost them? If real costs to them go up by 25% then how have they improved their quality of life?? For me, I have to maybe fork out an extra 2% of my spending ... doesn't hurt as much as it will hurt them. The solution. EDUCATE YOURSELF AND FIND A SKILLED JOB!

Oh and before you tell me, they can't because their stuck ... two things to say about that:
1) Yes there are people that are stuck, and I have NO problem supporting expenditure to fund education to get people unstuck. You want to really improve the economy, and increase quality of living. This IS the key, not raising min wage ... that is a short term political tactic that is fooling most.
2) Plan for a better future ... your children. Don't encourage them to aim for a min wage job, they must do better than that. A min wage job should be for students, anyone who doesn't need to work (has enough money) and just wants to keep busy, or those who don't mind living below the poverty line.

Have a great day!

Day care in Collingwood now and I am betting hundreds more across the province are looking at their 2018 projections.
https://barrie.ctvnews.ca/owner-of-c...sure-1.3722204

Wynne and the Libs are killing small businesses and increasing the public payroll (ex. 175 to check compliance with new laws)......

I see Wynne is screaming success on her Facebook and twitter feeds on OHIP and of course minimum wage change.

Minimum wage hike prompts Ontario businesses to raise prices, consider staff cuts
http://ottawasun.com/news/provincial...b-34b2dd825d8f



I know at a friends restaurant they are talking about reducing hours the staff work and increasing the owners hours, closing earlier and some rather substantial price increases as soon as they figure out the impact on their supplies, who are also raising their prices, and so it starts. Working more and making less .... Liberal Ontario where ideology and financial understanding are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

The trouble with the Provincial Government is that they are completely ignoring the fact that there will be a "trickle up" effect with semi-skilled labour wages as well.

The stylist at a hair salon who is already making $15.75-16, are they going to remain static while the new hire coming in to sweep is going to get $15? The electronics producer who has staff working the solder table making $17, but they drive from an hour away? When they can get a non-skilled job closer to home for only $2 less?

Both of those are businesses owned by friends of mine, BTW.

No, both are struggling to mitigate price increases, and still keep the lights on ( all LED now). One is looking at closing down one salon in favour of the busier location ( laying off staff). The other has taken much of his operation offshore, or is doing it themselves......and yet their business which at one time had 12 employees, now is a sole proprietorship of a cottage business if you will. He had plans on selling it in order to fund retirement......that is no longer an option.

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Originally Posted by Bluebulldog

The trouble with the Provincial Government is that they are completely ignoring the fact that there will be a "trickle up" effect with semi-skilled labour wages as well.

The stylist at a hair salon who is already making $15.75-16, are they going to remain static while the new hire coming in to sweep is going to get $15? The electronics producer who has staff working the solder table making $17, but they drive from an hour away? When they can get a non-skilled job closer to home for only $2 less?

Both of those are businesses owned by friends of mine, BTW.

No, both are struggling to mitigate price increases, and still keep the lights on ( all LED now). One is looking at closing down one salon in favour of the busier location ( laying off staff). The other has taken much of his operation offshore, or is doing it themselves......and yet their business which at one time had 12 employees, now is a sole proprietorship of a cottage business if you will. He had plans on selling it in order to fund retirement......that is no longer an option.

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The same thing has happened for my friend who I mentioned in an earlier post. He sent letters out,today,to his summer students advising that he couldn't hire them again this year. He wanted to give them lots of notice,so,they had time to find something else. He's managed to sell a lot of his equipment,keeping only the best of what he thinks he'll need. He still has a good business base,but,naturally,that'll shrink,too. He's planning on working a few more years with paid-for equipment at a much greater profit margin,then,retiring.

Wow, isn't nice to see all the older people here that have had it much easier in life be Pro income inequality. What has made you so bitter? that people that work full time(reguardless of what job) don't deserve a living wage or a life.

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Originally Posted by Bonkers

Wow, isn't nice to see all the older people here that have had it much easier in life be Pro income inequality. What has made you so bitter? that people that work full time(reguardless of what job) don't deserve a living wage or a life.

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Who said we had it easier? Bitter? You assume much.

"Deserve a living wage or life". Ok......minimum wage should be just that.....the minimum.....people should have some incentive to actually apply themselves, and / or get an education that will elevate them above the minimum.

You think we're talking because we were handed everything? You think no one against this has struggled? NO...in fact many of us are where we are because we were hungry, we were struggling. And to not only see people who have built businesses pour their life into them, to wind up struggling yet again to to poorly thought out policy.....so that a high school drop out can "have a better life" because they did absolutely nothing for it.......yeah...ok, totally fair.

Now economics 101.....

Tim's is a publicly traded company...you think their shareholders are going to allow them to lose profits in order to pay staff more? Nope....so now that person working the cash register is making more....but everything else has had the prices go up by equivalent....so a Med Reg is now $2.15......so much for added disposable income.

Yet the added income means the province and the feds get additional income taxes, don't they?

Living wage .... gotta actually be bonkers to buy that.... minimum wage is a start out wage or a working in a small business or service with no skills job... those that have some talent or drive don't make that long and to think it is just one person in a house (apt. etc.) making that is to miss the vast majority of the reality.

I will say it again, the Liebrals are just throwing youth and women under the bus to try and buy the election .... Ontarios FAO says 50,000 jobs plus and some small business organizations say almost 3X that when they include businesses closing. However to a government economist all they see is the fact that over 1/3 of that is gov't "income" (taxes), if they wanted to help the poorer workers the minimum deductible would have gone up, not the income that much.


Ontario's minimum wage hike could cost 50,000 jobs: provincial watchdog
Job losses expected to be concentrated among teens and young adults
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/onta...jobs-1.4285443

Many groups representing small and large businesses have come out against the proposed wage increase.

Ryan Mallough, senior policy analyst at the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, said Tuesday the watchdog's report supports the need for the province to back away from the proposed hike and to hold consultations.

"We encourage the Ontario government to step back and take the time to find a solution that actually addresses the problem, without putting 50,000 Ontarians' jobs at risk, predominantly those of teens, young adults, and new immigrants," Mallough said in a statement.


I know numbers confuse lefties but I couldn't ask them to use the calculator
https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-age...alculator.html

So here are the actual numbers, paid on a two week basis. NOTE the final amount and the taxes, looks like a good way to scrape more money out of Ontario workers and they make an extra $50 per week! OH and aren't they talking about upping the CPP too ........

So let's take a 37.5 hour week, paid every two weeks and put in minimum wage.

37.5 * 2 * 11.60 = 870

Salary or wages income 870.00
Total cash income 870.00
Taxable income for the pay period 870.00
Pensionable earnings for the pay period 870.00
Insurable earnings for the pay period 870.00
Federal tax deduction 47.85
Provincial tax deduction 27.30
Total tax deductions 75.15
CPP deductions 36.40
EI deductions 14.44
Total deductions 125.99
Net amount 744.01



37.5 * 2 * 14 = 1050
Salary or wages income 1,050.00
Total cash income 1,050.00
Taxable income for the pay period 1,050.00
Pensionable earnings for the pay period 1,050.00
Insurable earnings for the pay period 1,050.00
Federal tax deduction 73.07
Provincial tax deduction 41.28
Total tax deductions 114.35
CPP deductions 45.31
EI deductions 17.43
Total deductions 177.09
Net amount 872.91

Now. Having said my earlier piece. I will say this.

The province is piloting a basic personal income project in a few municipalities. It is also making it easier for low income families to access post secondary education.

I'm partially in favour of the first, and wholly in favour of the second. As we are seeing, that entry level jobs are not necessarily going to be no-skill positions, and post secondary, even in the form of a college certificate will greatly assist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bluebulldog

Who said we had it easier? Bitter? You assume much.

"Deserve a living wage or life". Ok......minimum wage should be just that.....the minimum.....people should have some incentive to actually apply themselves, and / or get an education that will elevate them above the minimum.

You think we're talking because we were handed everything? You think no one against this has struggled? NO...in fact many of us are where we are because we were hungry, we were struggling. And to not only see people who have built businesses pour their life into them, to wind up struggling yet again to to poorly thought out policy.....so that a high school drop out can "have a better life" because they did absolutely nothing for it.......yeah...ok, totally fair.

Now economics 101.....

Tim's is a publicly traded company...you think their shareholders are going to allow them to lose profits in order to pay staff more? Nope....so now that person working the cash register is making more....but everything else has had the prices go up by equivalent....so [COLOR="#FF0000"]a Med Reg is now $2.15......so much for added disposable income.

Yet the added income means the province and the feds get additional income taxes, don't they?

---

Are you F'N' kidding me.... $2.15 for a med coffee now. That is just crazy.... and yes I agree, unless the big corporations agree to make less, things will not change. Change must come from those who can make a difference. Remember (was it last year?) when we as a province used less natural gas (warm winter).... We may have saved on that winters gas bill but what did the big corporate guys do? They raised natural gas rates because they didn't make as much.
Those corporations demand their profit (10-15% or whatever it is), without them being on board (willing to make less) things cannot change, the only thing we will have is the smoke and mirror shows..
Maybe with the new revenue that this Liberal government will get, it will go toward the "free prescription drugs for anyone under 25".:silly:
And for the record...... we (5 boys) grew up with no money, no toys or fringes (we were poor).... In grade 7 I had to ask my friend that lived down the street to borrow his baseball glove so I can join the school team. Then the next year being embarrassed but feeling it was the only way, I had to ask him again to borrow the glove so I can play another year.... Then at the school year end,in grade 8 they pulled me out of the classroom, since my family had no money they said they would pay for my year end school trip. Being a proud (or maybe foolish) boy, I told them to go pound some salt as we were not poor, I just don't want to go....

What's the saying, "walk a mile in shoes"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fratri

Are you F'N' kidding me.... $2.15 for a med coffee now. That is just crazy.... and yes I agree, unless the big corporations agree to make less, things will not change. Change must come from those who can make a difference. Remember (was it last year?) when we as a province used less natural gas (warm winter).... We may have saved on that winters gas bill but what did the big corporate guys do? They raised natural gas rates because they didn't make as much.
Those corporations demand their profit (10-15% or whatever it is), without them being on board (willing to make less) things cannot change, the only thing we will have is the smoke and mirror shows..
Maybe with the new revenue that this Liberal government will get, it will go toward the "free prescription drugs for anyone under 25".:silly:
And for the record...... we (5 boys) grew up with no money, no toys or fringes (we were poor).... In grade 7 I had to ask my friend that lived down the street to borrow his baseball glove so I can join the school team. Then the next year being embarrassed but feeling it was the only way, I had to ask him again to borrow the glove so I can play another year.... Then at the school year end,in grade 8 they pulled me out of the classroom, since my family had no money they said they would pay for my year end school trip. Being a proud (or maybe foolish) boy, I told them to go pound some salt as we were not poor, I just don't want to go....

What's the saying, "walk a mile in shoes"

---

Spot on.

Sadly, many people of a certain age who also received participation trophies, and weren't allowed to fail, think real life actually works like that.....

However, many people choose to ignore the fact that we are a capitalist economy. I love getting into discussions with some people who vilify entities like Loblaws, who stand to lose 190 million by this one piece of legislation......and then forget their pension plan has a ton of Loblaws stock. ( Bread price fixing aside).

I love it when people assume success just happened......truth is, being hungry, and remembering THAT drives one to succeed far more than a pat on the back and an attaboy every time.

Do you think that someone living-subsisting on minimum wage buys 2 dollar coffee's , get real. If your coffee goes up 25 cents and you still buy it, then we know that loss of a quarter does not put you on the street.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

Do you think that someone living-subsisting on minimum wage buys 2 dollar coffee's , get real. If your coffee goes up 25 cents and you still buy it, then we know that loss of a quarter does not put you on the street.

---

Used mainly for example.

Ok...since you want to nit pick. Groceries....

Cost of labour goes up for the stocker.....you think the price of basic groceries isn't going to be increased? Liter of milk, loaf of bread? The amount of disposable income available due to this lovely piece of legislation is negligible.

Oh, and from what I've seen of many low income earners.....they have no compunction spending $2 on a Timmies, or $11-$12 on a pack of smokes......

Just got back from Metro, huge lines and very few tellers.... apparently they have cut back on hours, so longer waits....

and the difference on her paycheque she told me would be ....... $4 .... YEP ...... $FOUR

Nope, the Liberal's don't care about the workers, the poor, those on welfare and disability, old age pensioners etc. this is just them trying to get more money in and buy the election using other people's money.

Small businesses will have to have their owners there for longer hours or close earlier and big price increases as suppliers pass on the their increased costs. Liberal voters truly have no clue it seems when it comes to running their own business and budgets and payroll etc. , they can't.... either that or it is deliberate sabotage of the lower and middle incomes... all while spinning it as helping. Stupid, callous caniving or sabotage... those seem to be the choices.



As for Tim Hortons.


Tim Hortons heirs cut paid breaks and worker benefits after minimum wage hike, employees say

'I wasn't marching down the street asking for this pay raise. Now I'm worse off'

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/tim-horton-s-tims-timmies-doubledouble-minimum-wage-ontario-kathleen-wynne-labour-1.4470215

Besides losing paid breaks, the document states workers with more than five years of service will have to pay 50 per cent of the cost of benefits, and employees with between six months and five years service will have to pay 75 per cent.

An employee with more than five years service told CBC news prior to this their benefits were covered 100 per cent by the company.




and as we see more end up on the streets....


https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...e-do-more.html
Family shelters have been at 100 per cent capacity every night recently, women’s and youth shelters at 97 or 98 per cent, pretty much all shelters consistently over 94 per cent.




Businesses cannot be expected to run losing money, they will close or find ways to keep making money (the goal of opening a business) and only the delusional will think otherwise.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bluebulldog

Used mainly for example.

Ok...since you want to nit pick. Groceries....

Cost of labour goes up for the stocker.....you think the price of basic groceries isn't going to be increased? Liter of milk, loaf of bread? The amount of disposable income available due to this lovely piece of legislation is negligible.

Oh, and from what I've seen of many low income earners.....they have no compunction spending $2 on a Timmies, or $11-$12 on a pack of smokes......

---

Ok the stock workers wage goes up, so you are saying the store owner raises the price to cover that. If the owner does this, why would there be a job loss? A quick question, to find out your mind set, if a shirt you wanted was 18.99 and made in China, would you pay 19.99 for the exact same shirt if it was made in Canada, but a caveat would be, that the dollar extra would go to the factory workers wages and not the company shareholders.

To anyone who has voted Liberal, you have no right to cry and complain. Vote for idiots like Dalton and Wynne and now you can enjoy your ride.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

Ok the stock workers wage goes up, so you are saying the store owner raises the price to cover that. If the owner does this, why would there be a job loss? A quick question, to find out your mind set, if a shirt you wanted was 18.99 and made in China, would you pay 19.99 for the exact same shirt if it was made in Canada, but a caveat would be, that the dollar extra would go to the factory workers wages and not the company shareholders.

---

In many cases, the store owner has to struggle with raising prices, or cutting staff. Depending on how competitive the market is.....it's tough.

Take it one step further...my friend has a business that isn't just local, but sells across North America, he has to remain competitive, period.

The premise of your question is ludicrous. I don't shop at WalMart however, and buy local when I can. However, if you want to get into equivalencies, and price. The made in Canada shirt already costs 30% than a similar quality made offshore, not $1.00. It's a fallacy to think like a socialist in a Capitalist economy... look at examples like GE in Peterborough. Everyone is lamenting it shutting down, and it's truly a tragedy, but overhead costs were the main reason cited why it was no longer competitive. Now about 500 of your neighbors in the Kawarthas are going to flood an already depressed economy with job seekers. But it's hardly the Liberal Governments fault right?

Oh look..

An employer who gave their employees more that the bare minimum under the ESA is now cutting back on paid perks, because of this legislation, and it's costing the employees more than the wages increased.....

Liberal voters...you're up....

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/tim-...bour-1.4470215

Yes we are getting everything we voted for. Read the Tim,s article, they made over 90 million in one quarter, and the owners of the franchise are 'wintering' at their 'winter' home in Florida. They really must be hurting LOL.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

Yes we are getting everything we voted for. Read the Tim,s article, they made over 90 million in one quarter, and the owners of the franchise are 'wintering' at their 'winter' home in Florida. They really must be hurting LOL.

---

And where in our great social contract is it written that being a successful business owner means not enjoying the profits of your risk, and ventures? Oh, I guess you're a Communist at heart?

It's laughable, really. Drill down and find out what Tim's paid in Corporate taxes last year for the privilege of doing business here. How much did they pay in HST collected?

Ah, right....easy to say it's all about the big corporations, and they need to be taken down a peg.....until those tax revenues are greatly needed. Last I checked lots of underprivileged kids get to play sports, because of big corporations like Tims.......when did your local cafe even do so much as sponsor a hockey or baseball team?

Hamilton ON had most of it's Rec facilities and parks bought and paid for by big steel and industry. Then it became more difficult for them to do business here and remain competitive against foreign markets.....Now it's gone, and the municipal taxpayer has to pay for it all.......yes, the big, evil, profit driven corporations.....

Ron Joyce the father of that hard done by franchise owner is worth 1.39 BILLION dollars, but he can't afford to pay their benefits? Total greed nothing more nothing less.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

Ron Joyce the father of that hard done by franchise owner is worth 1.39 BILLION dollars, but he can't afford to pay their benefits? Total greed nothing more nothing less. If he spent 14 million a year it would last 100 years.

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...and look up a guy like Mark Wafer...and tell me that they don't give back. Despite not being required to.

What does an individuals net worth have to do with their businesses viability? Zero. Mixing the two together can violate a lot of rules. What does the personal wealth of one individual have to do with their offspring? Zero. Last I checked, when I went for a mortgage, then didn't care that my dad owns a house worth 1.2 mil.

You seem to have an axe to grind, but if memory serves, this is your typical position....

Yes , I do have a position, spread the wealth. 5% of the population should not have 95% of the wealth, no matter what reason.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

Ron Joyce the father of that hard done by franchise owner is worth 1.39 BILLION dollars, but he can't afford to pay their benefits? Total greed nothing more nothing less.

---

Well he wasn't required to for one, he WAS paying the benefits etc. and then some walking ethics violations gave his employees a 20% salary increase and add on that trying to keep close to the same sales price and the increase in the supplies due to that increase all so they could try and buy the election out of desperation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

Yes , I do have a position, spread the wealth. 5% of the population should not have 95% of the wealth, no matter what reason.

---

Ah... not just leftie.... essentially Socialist/Communist leftie ...... move to Venezuela please, even China has thrown that sh** out the window. China has kept their dictatorship and even been cracking down more and more lately but as for that leftie fiction they eventually recognized a dead end when they saw where it was going.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

Yes , I do have a position, spread the wealth. 5% of the population should not have 95% of the wealth, no matter what reason.

---

Lol, yep. Communist.

Seems to work well wherever it takes hold doesn’t it?

Build something. Put your heart and soul into something, it’s yours.

Start to see the benefits, only to have arbitrary policy take it away from you and spread it to those “less fortunate” ( by whatever description is convenient at the time).

The only people who are advocating so strongly for sharing the wealth, are those that never built any of their own.

...and FWIW, I grew up in poverty, a darn long ways away from where I am now, without any “help”.

No , social democrat. What has Ron Joyce Jr. done except be born to a wealthy father? In that article he was in Dubai opening a new Tim's, likely while his wife buys 5000.oo dollar purses, Yet he is worried about a dollar an hour. But for an accident of birth he would be serving the coffee behind the counter. Nobody needs a BILLION dollars no matter how it was acquired. Look at the Costco model as compared to Wall-mart. One group has a conscience.

Seems the Bank of Canada is including the Alberta jump too, seems the Liberals and NDP both don't like youth and women working.


Minimum wage hikes expected to cut 60,000 jobs by 2019, Bank of Canada warns
http://business.financialpost.com/ne...wage-increases

They seem like the usual leftie attitude, if you work hard, get ahead .... we will take it from you. I just checked the tables and a person in Ontario making $300,000+ is now taxed at a 53.3% ..... any one that makes $300,000 is being taxed $159,000, to say it is fair is completely detached from reality. There are deductions etc to bring it down but this is just encouraging the brightest and best to leave .... or maybe that's what the Liberal's want, the accomplices (Stalin, Castro etc. didn't act alone) and the dumb (including those jealous or in contempt of the competent) left to keep them in power. :whacked: I grew up with a mother on welfare and all I see in this are the ideologues and idiots wanting to take what has taken decades of work to make, my income is down almost 40% from 4 years ago thanks to businesses leaving etc. (One customers CEO announced they were leaving 3 days after the Wynne win)

There is also alot more in this union kiss a** bill besides the increase... and throw in some new enforcement staff, just to make things even harder... definitely trying to buy the unions and kill anything not gov't owned.

http://business.financialpost.com/ne...much-much-more
To ensure its new rules are followed, the government says they will hire up to 175 additional employment standards officers. When those new officers are hired, the government says it is aiming to perform inspections at one out of every 10 Ontario businesses.


Hiring 175 enforcers so they can put more businesses out of business ..... ???

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

No , social democrat. What has Ron Joyce Jr. done except be born to a wealthy father? In that article he was in Dubai opening a new Tim's, likely while his wife buys 5000.oo dollar purses, Yet he is worried about a dollar an hour. But for an accident of birth he would be serving the coffee behind the counter. Nobody needs a BILLION dollars no matter how it was acquired. Look at the Costco model as compared to Wall-mart. One group has a conscience.

---

Your position is based on spite and an unusual sense of what is fair.

"likely while his wife buys 5000.oo dollar purses"...really? That statement lends exactly what to the discussion, other than making you look petty?

"But for an accident of birth he would be serving the coffee behind the counter". Again, pure conjecture.....do you know what he did for school? Did he have an advantage? Sure....but your now sounding a little off the rails.

"Nobody needs a BILLION dollars". So what? Have you seen what Ron Joyce Sr. has done with his money? Want to try walking into a local cafe and pass the hat for a new stadium in Hamilton ON?

Look at what your posting, and your attitude. Between communist and "social democrat" you're leaning way more towards the former. Oh, being free to elect a government is great, but we don't want the people too free or unencumbered, because they might in fact be successful.....

How exactly do you see free market capitalism working if you arbitrarily decide that an entity can only be successful, or profit to a certain point?

You are also deflecting from the original point, in that a business, owned by whomever with whatever net worth they have, has a right to manage itself. Tim Horton's is a publicly traded corporation, wherein franchisees have to remit a certain amount of profits. I guess a business owner is just expected to take the kick to the stones, and keep walking......

Mosq do not mislead people , The report does not say 60,000 jobs will be lost, but that 60,000 fewer jobs will be created . In November 80,000 new jobs were created , so the lost in jobs is less than one months job creation. Nice story about it from some economists in todays Star .BBD the purse reference was to show that some people will never have enough money to waist on frills, while so many others do without necessities. Life and economics, should not necessarily be totally fair but it should be more fair.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

Mosq do not mislead people , The report does not say 60,000 jobs will be lost, but that 60,00 fewer jobs will be created . In November 80,000 new jobs were created , so the lost in jobs is less than one months job creation. Nice story about it from some economists in todays Star .

---

The Star article is typical Liberal "spin". Mitigating part time job losses with part time job creation is a fool's game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

Mosq do not mislead people , The report does not say 60,000 jobs will be lost, but that 60,000 fewer jobs will be created . In November 80,000 new jobs were created , so the lost in jobs is less than one months job creation. Nice story about it from some economists in todays Star .BBD the purse reference was to show that some people will never have enough money to waist on frills, while so many others do without necessities. Life and economics, should not necessarily be totally fair but it should be more fair.

---

Actually the Star and a few others have spun it in the best possible light.

Some other analysis of this, indicates as many as 185K jobs lost. Be it due to attrition, elimination of positions, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

Mosq do not mislead people , The report does not say 60,000 jobs will be lost, but that 60,00 fewer jobs will be created . In November 80,000 new jobs were created , so the lost in jobs is less than one months job creation. Nice story about it from some economists in todays Star .

---

Not misleading .... you seem to be though and you seem happy that the low income earners are now paying 50% more in taxes ... but that has numbers from CRA so if you can't understand it just say so.
https://www.oodmag.com/community/sho...=1#post1048155



Let's see the top story is ...
Minimum wage increases could lead to 60,000 fewer jobs by 2019: Bank of Canada
https://www.thestar.com/business/eco...of-canada.html

They also say it might go to 130,000.

But yes, let's look at the numbers...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/cana...nomy-1.4427948

5/8ths of the jobs were part time and are probably gone now that Christmas is over, .... we will see a huge drop in actual jobs and hours worked too. Metro and Tim Hortons are already taking steps to mitigate the damage and once businesses have time to look at this and the other sh** the job losses will start and prices go up and so will the spin.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bluebulldog

Actually the Star and a few others have spun it in the best possible light.

Some other analysis of this, indicates as many as 185K jobs lost. Be it due to attrition, elimination of positions, etc.

---

One of the small business groups said 150,000 for Ontario alone when closures are included. With the NAFTA still alive and Trump getting the US economy improving Canada may not suffer that badly but to say this stunt is anything other than trying to buy the election is ridiculous.


Small businesses are taking steps like not hiring etc.
http://business.financialpost.com/en...21-biz-lj-cfib

The Beaverton has a story about it on line today. 'Tim Hortons heirs encourage minimum wage employees to inherit their own coffee chains', "even coffee time would probably be worth something'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

No , social democrat. What has Ron Joyce Jr. done except be born to a wealthy father? In that article he was in Dubai opening a new Tim's, likely while his wife buys 5000.oo dollar purses, Yet he is worried about a dollar an hour. But for an accident of birth he would be serving the coffee behind the counter. Nobody needs a BILLION dollars no matter how it was acquired. Look at the Costco model as compared to Wall-mart. One group has a conscience.

---

You do realize owning a company is about making profits. Why do you have a problem with others success.
Seems a lot of the younger generation have a sense of entitlement, and don't get the fact many people work hard an long to create their own success....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

The Beaverton has a story about it on line today. 'Tim Hortons heirs encourage minimum wage employees to inherit their own coffee chains', "even coffee time would probably be worth something'.

---

Using The Beaverton as a reliable news source is as dodgy as using The Onion as one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by canadaman30

You do realize owning a company is about making profits. Why do you have a problem with others success.
Seems a lot of the younger generation have a sense of entitlement, and don't get the fact many people work hard an long to create their own success....

---

Not just the younger one, the left has never been about innovation, success, budgets, openness, accountability and given Wynne and Trudeau it seems ethics is completely dead too. Just look at them buying antique jets, letting Unions and reserves go back to NON-disclosure of spending, admiration of a dictatorship that sent tanks to run over hundreds or thousands of students, etc. etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishermccann

Yes , I do have a position, spread the wealth. 5% of the population should not have 95% of the wealth, no matter what reason.

---

Make up numbers much? Take a look at this video prepared by one of your tribe. His study indicated that it is actually 20% of the population controls 70% of the wealth (2:09 mark in the video). I am not saying this isn't skewed and that the broader population does not want it adjusted (his study supports a broad desire for redistribution), just saying that your ratio is not correct. Your ratio of % wealth controlled versus % of population yields a figure of 19:1. The actual ratio (according to your people) is 3.5:1 - that equates to an exaggeration of 543% on your part.

http://www.broadbentinstitute.ca/wealth_gap

I own a small business and while I won't speak for the small business community at large I will speak for myself. I will not hire anyone because of the overhead and hassle associated with it (Matching CPP, 1.4x matching EI, WSIB, health and safety commitees, mat leave, health benefits, liability implications, etc...). I make far more money with far less headache just working 60, 80 or sometimes a 100 hours a week to make up the labour shortage when necessary. If I want holidays I have good relations with other similar small businesses and we provide contract services to each other to cover any time off we want.

If people don't like it that I don't spread the wealth - I don't give a flying F. Between HST remittance, corporate income tax and personal income tax the CRA is already getting 160K+ from me every year. I am putting far more into the coffers than I will ever use. Anybody not happy about it is free to start their own business, spread the wealth and accept the associated costs/hassles and liabilities.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Species8472

Make up numbers much? Take a look at this video prepared by one of your tribe. His study indicated that it is actually 20% of the population controls 70% of the wealth (2:09 mark in the video). I am not saying this isn't skewed and that the broader population does not want it adjusted (his study supports this), just saying that your ratio is not correct. Your ratio of % wealth controlled versus % of population yields a figure of 19:1. The actual ratio is 3.5 - that equates to an exaggeration of 543% on your part.

http://www.broadbentinstitute.ca/wealth_gap

I own a small business and while I won't speak for the small business community at large I will speak for myself. I will not hire anyone because of the overhead and hassle associated with it (Matching CPP, 1.4x matching EI, WSIB, health and safety commitees, mat leave, health benefits, liability implications, etc...). I make far more money with far less headache just working 60, 80 or sometimes a 100 hours a week to make up the labour shortage when necessary. If I want holidays I have good relations with other similar small businesses and we provide contract services to each other to cover any time off we want.

If people don't like it that I don't spread the wealth - I don't give a flying F. They are free to start their own businesses, spread the wealth and accept the associated costs/hassles.

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Kudo's to you! Bravo! Bravo!

After working in the auto industry with a very militant union representation,the leftist mantra "Make the rich pay" still drives me half to distraction. Where do these Liberal and NeeDeePer types get off advocating that those people who have been very astute at business and built their companies through excellent business accumen deserve to have their assets "redistributed" (stolen is more like it) to those who aren't as skilled in a business environment? Not everyone can be multi millionaires. That's just not the way life works. There's no excuse for people to not do well using every legal tool at their disposal. The left would have us believe that successful people bear some sort of responsibility to finance the lower economic strata of society. I maintain that there isn't once shred of responsibility and the fact most wealthy people support social programs through donations of time and money speaks volumes to their character,not so the union/socialist/liberal types who advocate theft through excess taxation of the well-to-do's assets. The very idea that the "rich" don't pay their fair share is just NUTS!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dythbringer

Using The Beaverton as a reliable news source is as dodgy as using The Onion as one.

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Just thought I would inject a little humour, as it was topical.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

After working in the auto industry with a very militant union representation,the leftist mantra "Make the rich pay" still drives me half to distraction. Where do these Liberal and NeeDeePer types get off advocating that those people who have been very astute at business and built their companies through excellent business accumen deserve to have their assets "redistributed" (stolen is more like it) to those who aren't as skilled in a business environment? Not everyone can be multi millionaires. That's just not the way life works. There's no excuse for people to not do well using every legal tool at their disposal. The left would have us believe that successful people bear some sort of responsibility to finance the lower economic strata of society. I maintain that there isn't once shred of responsibility and the fact most wealthy people support social programs through donations of time and money speaks volumes to their character,not so the union/socialist/liberal types who advocate theft through excess taxation of the well-to-do's assets. The very idea that the "rich" don't pay their fair share is just NUTS!

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The rich as a group pay far more than their fare share. Consider the Dr. or Lawyer who gross $400k and after employing a good accountant ( who also pays taxes ) get their taxes owed down to say $125k. Do you really think these high income and high net worth people consume 10x the amount of taxpayer funded services that the average middle class person does? Quite often the wealthy don't even use our very expensive education system due to it's mediocrity but they still pay the taxes. They pay more sales taxes on more expensive vehicles and more property taxes on larger expensive homes and cottages, yet they drive the same roads and go through the same doors at the hospital. So yes the rich actually usually pay more than thier share.

I wonder how good of an accountant the CEO of Ontario Hydro has

Hydro One CEO’s salary is up to 10 times that of CEOs in other provinces

At $4.4 million in salary and bonuses in 2016, Hydro One CEO Mayo Schmidt is well above the Alberta CEO, whose pay package topped out at $2.2 million in 2015.
https://www.thestar.com/news/queensp...n-country.html


Interesting information on WHO the minimum wage earners are.
https://www.fraserinstitute.org/blog...-who-you-think

• 88 per cent of minimum-wage earners do not live in a low-income household, as measured by Statistics Canada’s low income cut-off (LICO).

• 83 per cent of workers living in a low-income household earn more than the minimum wage.

In other words, most Canadians who earn the minimum wage are not “poor,” and most of those living in “poor” households earn more than the minimum wage. For a government policy aimed at helping the working poor, the minimum wage simply does not efficiently or effectively target the people it is supposed to help.

To help explain these results, we looked at some of the other characteristics of minimum-wage earners including their age, education, and more. Here is what we found:

• 58 per cent of minimum-wage earners are teenagers or young adults aged 15 to 24, with the vast majority of them (85 per cent) living with their parents or other relatives. For many youths, a minimum wage job is their first while in school and often a stepping stone to higher paid employment.

• 54 per cent of minimum-wage earners have achieved a high school diploma or less, signalling very low levels of education. If we focus on all workers who hold a university degree, then only 3 per cent earn the minimum wage. This should put to rest the idea that a substantial share of university graduates is working minimum wage jobs.

• 58 per cent of minimum-wage earners work part-time. More broadly, however, part-time workers are much more likely than full-time workers to be earning minimum wage. Consider that just 4 per cent of all full-time workers earn the minimum wage, challenging the notion that a large cadre of full-time career workers is dependent on the minimum wage.

Small businesses have already reduced hours and cut staff. Wynne's trolling for the minimum wage vote will cost people jobs. Economists, boards of trade, corporations have all predicted and warned her yet she does what she wants. Pathetitic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by terrym

Small businesses have already reduced hours and cut staff. Wynne's trolling for the minimum wage vote will cost people jobs. Economists, boards of trade, corporations have all predicted and warned her yet she does what she wants. Pathetitic.

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Not even just small businesses cutting hours, many Sobey's stores that were once 24hrs are now closing in the evenings. Here is your raise and now you work less hours. A totally blind and clueless government.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sab81

Not even just small businesses cutting hours, many Sobey's stores that were once 24hrs are now closing in the evenings. Here is your raise and now you work less hours. A totally blind and clueless government.

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Yes but it's a government that exists because of clueless voters.
I think at this point she is at the very best going to get a minority if the Conservatives shoot themselves in the foot again during the campaign and God knows they do that well. She is now in full campaign mode and will be greasing $$$ anybody breathing for votes. It works well for them.

One of the immediate things I noticed was going to the local 7/11 to get gas at around 7pm on Wed.

Typically there are always two people on shift. Wed night there was only one. A woman in her late 20s-30s. She was alone, and would be until 12am, when her relief came in, also alone.

Fewer shifts, and in some cases, sacrificing employee security. There is no requirement under the legislation to have 2 staff on, it was a measure the owner had put in place.

She lives on optics and boolsheet. But Liberals buy it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bluebulldog

One of the immediate things I noticed was going to the local 7/11 to get gas at around 7pm on Wed.

Typically there are always two people on shift. Wed night there was only one. A woman in her late 20s-30s. She was alone, and would be until 12am, when her relief came in, also alone.

Fewer shifts, and in some cases, sacrificing employee security. There is no requirement under the legislation to have 2 staff on, it was a measure the owner had put in place.

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The employer is to provide a 911 panic button device that is fastened or placed under a counter,panic necklace or a wrist panic button device in case of emergency. These are relatively cheap devices when a person is working alone and needs 911 assistance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

The employer is to provide a 911 panic button device that is fastened or placed under a counter,panic necklace or a wrist panic button device in case of emergency. These are relatively cheap devices when a person is working alone and needs 911 assistance.

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Source please?

Ontario is one of the few jurisdictions in the Country to my knowledge has no legislation pertaining to working alone, except with relation to Confine Space Entry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bluebulldog

Source please?

Ontario is one of the few jurisdictions in the Country to my knowledge has no legislation pertaining to working alone, except with relation to Confine Space Entry.

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Even the police work alone !! Nothing legislative to prevent it.
As I’m sure you are aware !!
We went to lunch at our usual haunt, specials are all up 2 bucks !!

Calling Wynne's comments as dishonest and showing the facts.... :thumbup:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...ticle37513049/
Ontario is out of the gate with a new hourly wage floor of $14 – up 21 per cent from a year ago – and on its way to $15 next January. It has not taken long for the gasps to emerge from people who are not experiencing the nirvana they were promised.

Premier Kathleen Wynne intimated that this kind of outcome is all news to her, she has also called it bullying on the part of employers – a double-double of disingenuousness, so to speak. The fact that the owners are family to original franchisee Ron Joyce grabs attention, but is a red herring because thousands of other business owners – many of those who barely clear livable wages themselves – are having to confront exactly the same challenges in their workplaces.

The financials of this franchisee are not known, but it can't be atypical of the hospitality sector in general, where about one-third of businesses are losing money in any given year. Yes, wages tend to be lower than average in this industry, but it is because margins are low for owners as well.

In the case of this particular Tim Hortons franchise, despite being slammed by the Premier, the impacts actually look quite muted. There are apparently no layoffs, and there is nothing to suggest the franchise owners are better off after cutting staff benefits. Equally, their employees – as a group – are probably just as well off as before. It is just that the value of some of their benefits were traded for wages.

Until now, discussion of the impacts has been confined to the abstract space, with academics, organizations like the province's Financial Accountability Officer and, more recently, the Bank of Canada weighing in. Each comes up with slightly different forecasts, but all recognize that not all low-income earners will benefit from higher minimum wages. That we now see some of the negative repercussions show up among real people is not the fault of employers, but of those who set up people's unfulfillable expectations. Suggesting that raising minimum wages would help all employees was wrong and dishonest.


Libs lying and spinning the truth to divide people more .... must be an election this year.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

Even the police work alone !! Nothing legislative to prevent it.
As I’m sure you are aware !!
We went to lunch at our usual haunt, specials are all up 2 bucks !!

---

Police are covered under their collective agreement as part of occupational health and safety for two-person units on night shifts,but,it's not a provincial regulation. Timmie's has raised their prices across the board as have virtually all fast food outlets,not a lot,but,enough to make up the difference to comply with the legislation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mosquito

Even the Toronto Star is speaking the truth ...

"A 32-per-cent hike in minimum wage rates will cause many small businesses to go out of business, especially those of us in the labour-intensive restaurant industry,"
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/comm...-to-close.html
The provincial government’s recent announcement raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour in the next 18 months garnered headlines like “a good day for the little guy.” We beg to differ. The other “little guys,” hard-working and risk-taking owners of Ontario’s small business community, will have more bad days making ends meet.

A 32-per-cent hike in minimum wage rates will cause many small businesses to go out of business, especially those of us in the labour-intensive restaurant industry. Ontario restaurants have the lowest profit margin in Canada, according to both Statistics Canada and industry association Restaurant Canada.

The average Ontario restaurant owner has only 10 employees with annual revenues around $689,000. Ontario restaurateurs earn the lowest pre-tax profit in Canada, 3.4 per cent or $23,450 per year. This wage hike will cost them $47,000 per year.

...
Premier Wynne has backtracked on her promise to let the consumer price index determine annual minimum wage increases and keep it out of politics.



I talked to some friends I know in a local restaurant and they are just at break even, when you look at with $700+ electric bills (cooking, heat, water heating all gas and about 1/3 that), increases in meat and produce etc. Their plans are to not hire full time staff, but probably will replace the higher costing full time staff with several part timers (students likely as the lower pay option) and spend more of their own time working.

P.S. I stopped in at the restaurant near to my friends, seems the previous owner lasted just over 1 year from start of construction to selling cheap just to get out! .. and the new owner was already complaining about expenses and costs....

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Mosquito I do not recall any past Conservative Government implementing a huge increase with regards to minimum wage .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

Mosquito I do not recall any past Conservative Government implementing a huge increase with regards to minimum wage .

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They were smart enough to leave this to the private sector like the Liberals should have done. Many businesses aren't in the position to sustain added overhead and their products won't sustain market share when the costs rise and must be passed on to customers. Net result is businesses eventually collapse. Then,everyone loses.

Wynne is just loving this Tim Hortons debacle! It's taking the pressure off her and throwing it at business. It's unfortunate that there are so many voters who don't or won't have the brains to see through this and place the blame squarely where it belongs! In Wynnes lap!

Wynne has paid off enough people to win the next election. Just watch. The other thing is Conservatives are about the worse campaigners. Sad but true.

Campaigners,........ oh , I thought you said complainers and I was going to agree, LOL.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by terrym

Wynne has paid off enough people to win the next election. Just watch. The other thing is Conservatives are about the worse campaigners. Sad but true.

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Quite likely, the Liebrals are good at divide and bribe tactics but this attack on Tim Horton's is ridiculous. The owner of a couple franchises and the lies Wynne is spreading about them is beyond ridiculous, apparently the owners actually work in the store and paying the benefits that aren't required by Ontario labour laws.... AND STILL ARE paying more than the labour laws require! The bully is the government that is hiring 175 enforcement goons and will name and shame anyone that doesn't bow to their policies.

The CBC article can't even get it right when the cuts are right in the published letters.... pathetic.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/tim-...ario-1.4472878

But this is what I keep hearing at Metro and in the article above "A Sunset Grill server who asked to remain anonymous told CBC News their wage increase is now effectively nil. "


The Libs and NDP are apparently calling for a NO Timmies Tuesday ..... I usually go to Second Cup if I buy a coffee but not tomorrow!

Divide, rhetoric, intimidation and propaganda .... that's the Lib. way. Look at Justin Trudeau talking about "taking the side of doctors" and now the province is are trying to get the Union support and Libs are attacking businesses.... the Libs "just pay more" is their line but franchises have fixed prices and what about the 60,000+ jobs that will be cut back, those on welfare, disability, old age pension etc. they are throwing under the bus .... and their 175 enforcers will make sure the Libranoes are obeyed..... or else!

Brian Lilley talking about it tonight.
https://www.facebook.com/brianlilley...3395221727526/



TIMMIES TUESDAY everyone! I'm adding a bacon sausage muffin too! Maybe even a donut..... just don't tell my wife!


Countdown .... election will be over 5 months from now .... watch the payoffs, "projects" and spin go .... the accomplices will keep covering up but with a now 20% favourability there is still a chance we can get rid of the Libranoes and their corruption, bribes and rhetoric. The Conservatives are at a disadvantage, they keep telling the truth before the election and responsibility and integrity just don't qualify as "bribes" it seems.

I am feeling a croissant breakfast sandwich and a large D/D from Timmy's for breakfast tomorrow. Wynne can go to hellll

Quote:

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Originally Posted by terrym

I am feeling a croissant breakfast sandwich and a large D/D from Timmy's for breakfast tomorrow. Wynne can go to hellll

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As loathe as I am to remotely agree with Wynne's Liberals,I have conflicting thoughts about the franchisees. A TH franchise now costs in the neighborhood of $1.2M and employs roughly twenty five people,some more,others less. The benefit packages for employees are defined contribution plans for full time and SFA for part timers who make up the bulk of the work force. I can't see where taking away a paid break and a free lunch would make much of difference to the bottom line to offset payroll except to be deliberately vexatious. Anyone that can cough up a cool Mil for a store can certainly afford the raise. If they can't,they aren't much of a business.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

As loathe as I am to remotely agree with Wynne's Liberals,I have conflicting thoughts about the franchisees. A TH franchise now costs in the neighborhood of $1.2M and employs roughly twenty five people,some more,others less. The benefit packages for employees are defined contribution plans for full time and SFA for part timers who make up the bulk of the work force. I can't see where taking away a paid break and a free lunch would make much of difference to the bottom line to offset payroll except to be deliberately vexatious. Anyone that can cough up a cool Mil for a store can certainly afford the raise. If they can't,they aren't much of a business.

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This is surprising to hear from you?

Whether or not the franchisee can afford it or not, is not the issue IMO? Who are we, as JQ Public, to say the owner, franchisee or operator has to fund this wage increase at their own expense? So what if they went on the hook for a million plus? It's their risk, not ours or the employee's and definitely not the gov'ts!
It's a shame sensible people can't see through the bull crud and are allowing this rhetoric to get out of hand!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bushmoose

This is surprising to hear from you?

Whether or not the franchisee can afford it or not, is not the issue IMO? Who are we, as JQ Public, to say the owner, franchisee or operator has to fund this wage increase at their own expense? So what if they went on the hook for a million plus? It's their risk, not ours or the employee's and definitely not the gov'ts!
It's a shame sensible people can't see through the bull crud and are allowing this rhetoric to get out of hand!

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Make no mistake,I absolutely believe you're right. That's why I'm a bit conflicted. I still have the feeling the franchisee was being disingenuous with his reasoning for taking it out on employees. Surely,they could have found savings somewhere else. The optics are terrible. They played right into Wynne's hands and gave her a giant PR coup. I hate that the most.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Make no mistake,I absolutely believe you're right. That's why I'm a bit conflicted. I still have the feeling the franchisee was being disingenuous with his reasoning for taking it out on employees. Surely,they could have found savings somewhere else. The optics are terrible. They played right into Wynne's hands and gave her a giant PR coup. I hate that the most.

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As has been said, the franchisee was paying more than the law required prior to this fiasco. It sounds like the employee's were already getting a free benefit plan from their employer? That in itself, suggests the employer was/is dedicated and conciencious toward the employee?
The plan was probably

Damn phones!

As I was saying, the plan was probably priced according to payroll ? The employer was paying 100% based on the payroll numbers?
All of a sudden, payroll jumps 30 +%!? What does anyone expect the employer to do? Suck it up?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Make no mistake,I absolutely believe you're right. That's why I'm a bit conflicted. I still have the feeling the franchisee was being disingenuous with his reasoning for taking it out on employees. Surely,they could have found savings somewhere else. The optics are terrible. They played right into Wynne's hands and gave her a giant PR coup. I hate that the most.

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That they did, but the ROI on Tim Horton's is no longer in the 3 to 6 year range (6 is a real good location) and the requirements are incredible. Most franchises give you a head start due to the name but getting the original investment back and actually making money are often long term plans. The goal of a business is to make money and they are still providing better benefits than is required by the province .... I help out with a friends restaurant now and again and in 2 years it still hasn't made a profitable month and they are raising prices when they figure out the cost but this may be the nail in the coffin as I see it. We looked at franchises as an investment a few years ago and Tim Horton's is one of the golden geese out there... but at $1,200,000+ to just start ... and now it is owned by Burger King if I remember right.
http://www.macleans.ca/economy/busin...ys-profitable/
https://www.milliondollarjourney.com...-make-cost.htm

I'll say it again divisiveness and spin are the tools of the Libs. Us against them ... Libs love to go after the rich (even though they are the often the richest elite) and Trudeau's comment about taking Doctor's side blatantly showed it.... he thinks it is bad to take the side of the educated, employer, risk taker ... being a millionaire trust fund rich kid that goes on $250,000 taxpayer paid vacations .... and Wynne wants to spin it the same way, earning money, risk taking, innovation are all negatives to the Liberals it seems! They want a people dependent on the gov't, not thinking, hard working or innovating

The employees I have sympathy for but those making minimum wage, if you look at statscan most aren't relying on it and going from 11.60 to 12 probably would have made many happy, especially when tax etc is added in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bushmoose

Damn phones!

As I was saying, the plan was probably priced according to payroll ? The employer was paying 100% based on the payroll numbers?
All of a sudden, payroll jumps 30 +%!? What does anyone expect the employer to do? Suck it up?

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Choices are loose money (we don't know their situation but probably not at Tim's), raise prices (not at Tim's) or cut staffing and hours (as we see elsewhere) and also probably not at Tim's due to customer wait times etc. fees .... lots of gross % fees at Tim's .... so of they want to cut back to maintain a percentage of profit there isn't much left

Given that the franchise owner probably doesn't have a pension, benefits of their own???? , losing money isn't likely but like the Liberal MP's like to say I think they are entitled to their entitlements.

Using the post above ...
"Surprisingly, the lowest profits were recorded in Nova Scotia, where Tim Horton is practically a patron saint. The typical owner there earned just $203,721 in 2008, more than double the take from 2002."

Accountants, other costs, all the risk, insults coming from a Premier that makes about the same ($208,974) BUT she travels around the world free (recent Asian tour) is idiotic and they do things like pay the CEO of Ontario hyrdo $4,000,000


Maybe a danish instead of a donut tomorrow....

I've had to make this point several times over.

1. Personal wealth and liquidity has zero to do with a businesses viability. A business owner has an obligation to ensure that their business is viable, and turning a profit.

2. Tim Horton's franchisees, were not allowed to increase prices by corporate. In order to maintain margins, the costs had to be recovered eleswhere.

3. It's all fine and well for Cafe X, to send their employees a letter saying that they aren't "Minimal players" etc, however most of us know that a great many minimum wage earners are in that bracket because they were unmotivated to elevate themselves. ( not true in all cases I know, but there is a great majority that it is.)

I don't see our Liberal government going after the Sikh warehouse owner in Brampton who laid off staff, and cut perks back to a bare minimum......I guess it doesn't quite fit the narrative of "rich white dudes protecting their privilege.....

The best was yesterdays CBC, when an official on the new tip line, said they had reports of employers doing things like that....and while it met the law....it wasn't with the "spirit" of what the law intended. Translation: We know it's cr@p but there's nothing we can do about it.

Re: Franchise cost - there is some mis-information floating about the we re: the 1.5m net worth.

What time Horton's has to say:


Franchise Cost: $480,000 to $510,000* plus all applicable taxes (this includes a drive-thru)
Additional Working Capital: (start-up costs) $50,000 (unencumbered)
At least $153,000 of the franchise cost must be unencumbered (cash or liquid assets) in
addition to the $50,000 working capital that must also be unencumbered. The remaining
amount may be financed through various lending programs offered by the chartered banks,
providing, of course, the candidate meets the normal borrowing requirements.
The specific cost of a Tim Hortons license will depend upon the Tim Hortons building size and
the required furnishings and equipment to be installed. The cost of a Tim Hortons license may
exceed $510,000 in certain locations due to higher development costs.
Included in the cost of a franchise is the following:
 All equipment, furniture, display equipment and signage
 Seven (7) week training program in the Oakville, Ontario, at Tim Hortons University
 A Restaurant opening crew/Manager of Operations Standards (MOS) to assist the
opening of the Tim Hortons Restaurant (for a maximum period of two weeks)
 The use of all Tim Hortons Manuals
 Right to use trademarks and trade names
 Support from head office personnel who have vast knowledge in the food service
business
Not included in the cost of the franchise:
 The building (responsibility of the TDL Group)
 The property that the Restaurant is built (responsibility of the TDL Group)
The term of the License agreement is usually 10 years and usually with options to renew for up
to a further period of 10 years.
*Subject to change without notice.

If the Franchise owners of Tim Hortons are not making good money, not sure who is....
They, may need to put up a lot of money but there is a long wait list to have that opportunity.
Greed (on the part of the employer) plays a big role on how much money an employee makes.

As for the costs, the $500,000 is the minimum.... and they don't even look at that it seems based on talking to a friend that tried to get a franchise.

https://www.timhortons.com/ca/en/cor...ise-ca-faq.php
"The cost of a Tim Hortons franchise varies depending on the restaurant size and location, along with other factors. You must have $1.5million in net worth and $500,000 liquid assets in order to qualify. Financial requirements may be lower or higher depending on the transaction type"


Well according to that lawsuit from a few years back they were making about $250,000 so let's say $300,000 (or $400,000 for a good location) a year. Probably lots of hours, frustrations etc. but still a very good wage, even without benefit and pension. Now the new taxes that income bracket is about 53% but we will say they have a good accountant and get it to 40%.... that's still $180,000 in pocket.

The increase was $2.40 .... let's say each Timmies has 20 staff working 35 hours (7 days a week, early to late... easily much more) and 50 weeks (very lowballing here).

$2.40 * 35 * 50 = 4,200 The fact over 1/3 of that goes to taxes doesn't matter to the franchise owner.

$4200 * 20 = $84,000

So the income of the franchise just went down $84,000 + any other increased costs, the tax increases etc. not a nice hit to the franchise owner. So $300,000 is now $216,000 and still in that high income tax so .... now $129,600. $180,000 to $129,000 about a 30% kick in the nuts *(say 20% for the good location)... can't blame them. Especially with the extra costs of book keeping, the hours, probably a manager instead of working there yourself, emergencies, property maintenance (snow blowing etc.) .... nope, they are also still giving more than required by law in the case Wynne is lying about so ... using employees and rhetoric to attack business owners.... libs!


BUT let's look at Wynne's benefit .... at the low end 1/3 of that $84,000 will be taxes

Put that across 1,000 Tim Horton's and the type stores ... $28,000,000 in tax "revenues".

New gov't "revenues", playing groups against each other to get votes and using others money to buy votes.... then hire 175 enforcement officers to make sure there is no dissent (also paid for by the taxpayer) ..... that's a Liberal gov't for you.

OK ..... time to redo my numbers... I was way to conservative.
https://www.thestar.com/news/queensp...n-14-wage.html
"Tim Hortons’ franchisees are warning the higher labour tab will cost them an average of $243,889 apiece per outlet."

Take 1/3 as taxes again.... $81,296.33 and multiply across 1000 Tim Horton size operations .... $81,296,333.33 in new gov't "revenue"


But wow, no wonder they are cutting back!!!!!

Personally I think they are cutting back because they are greedy......

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fratri

Personally I think they are cutting back because they are greedy......

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I think you are either incapable of running a business and understanding it they are still surpassing Ontario labour laws by far and the left is just spinning this into their usual us against them ... it worked for the Communist party in Russia, China, Cambodia and the National Socialist party under Hitler .... so Wynne (and Trudeau) are just following in the lefts old tradition.

I like what Brian has to say about this.... he has it just right that the $15 increase next year is just an attempt to divide and pay off the Union.... and you can listen to Brian talk about the absolute lies that were shown on CTV etc.
https://www.facebook.com/brianlilley...5306084869773/

............................

Let's start with the basics.....

1) The goal of a business is to make money for the owner and investors.
2) Business provide items so we can live and innovations so it the future is better.
Don't want to confuse you so I will stop here tonight.

The OFL has been banging the drum in the media,I see. They'l be salivating at the thought of being able to organize a union drive. If that happens,TH will disappear over night.

If they really wanted to help people they would have lowered taxes. (Like in the US)
She costs us billions then points a finger at Tim’s. it’s funny how crazy they are. They might be certifiable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by glen

If they really wanted to help people they would have lowered taxes. (Like in the US)
She costs us billions then points a finger at Tim’s. it’s funny how crazy they are. They might be certifiable.

---

See. Min wage goes up...so does the price of most consumer goods. So no real benefit there for low income families.

However, there is more income tax collected on the additional income, and extra sales tax paid on the price increase.

No. The Wynne Government could have done a lot to assist the low income earners. They could have mandated that employers with a set amount of staff, or profit, would be required to provide some form of health benefits coverage. They could have given larger amounts of tax incentives or breaks.

None of which would result in more revenue though, and for a Province that's $300 billion in debt, that spends as much as it does on Health Care to service it.....revenue is a huge concern.

[....................

Was one of the top news stories up here yesterday that the bus companies are now having trouble finding drivers. They used to pay drivers 14 dollars an hour which was 2.50 more then minimum wage but now that wages have gone up they have no money in the budget to pay for an increase to keep people at this job instead of something more convenient. Since they are funded by the government they need new allocation. Of funds to cover the cost of raising wages ....... so a tax increase for everyone is coming .....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by exgunner

Was one of the top news stories up here yesterday that the bus companies are now having trouble finding drivers. They used to pay drivers 14 dollars an hour which was 2.50 more then minimum wage but now that wages have gone up they have no money in the budget to pay for an increase to keep people at this job instead of something more convenient. Since they are funded by the government they need new allocation. Of funds to cover the cost of raising wages ....... so a tax increase for everyone is coming .....

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Oh, the trickle up effect was one of the main factors outlined when the Province started the review in 2014. It was conveniently ignored.

My Summer students all will have elevated pay scales this Summer. I'm municipal, so guess who's property tax levy is going up too?

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Originally Posted by glen

If they really wanted to help people they would have lowered taxes. (Like in the US)
She costs us billions then points a finger at Tim’s. it’s funny how crazy they are. They might be certifiable.

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No, I don't think so, their supporters .. maybe or just incapable of empathy or understanding but the Libs know what works for them and that is the "us vs them" strategy. The thousands that are losing their jobs, getting reduced hours and losing benefits will be against the owners, the employers and those that can figure out that this rapid an increase is nothing more than trying to buy the election with union help of course.

Tim Horton's when I was in there had 14 people (I could see and count) including what I think were 4 trainies this week..... so you start looking at the costs it goes through the roof. With this increase (and the tax increase too) the owners of their franchise takes the hit, not the parent company in Brazil and they aren't going to let them raise their prices (yet) so that is $250,000 reduction in income Yes, some of the owners are rich but alot of these owners work there too and this is their job, so they obviously aren't being treated fairly. Given the high taxes and the increases there, then given the law suit from 10 years ago.... sure looks unfair! Alot of locations sure are likely looking at ways to reduce costs (maybe even automation ordering and other items like you see in McDonalds) so we will see how it plays out, unlikely but maybe even some closings or owners selling on now marginal locations.

Each of these franchises is essentially a small business that pays 8% gross to a company that's head office is in Brazil to use a name and unions are definitely anti-innovation and anti-small business and risk takers, but it seems alot just can't find any empathy for an owner that had HIS/THEIR (and the families) pay reduced by $243,889 ... which if you look at the lawsuit numbers could be 1/2 their income. $243,889 ..... that's alot of coffees.... say each coffee is $1, labour materials (coffee, cup..), infrastructure etc. .... let's be conservative and say $.50 .... so at a minimum they would have to sell 500,000 more coffees to make that up.... and some just seem so unable to look at how a business works ...no empathy, no understanding and no desire to understand ... sad.

Divide and add tax "revenue" .... Libs! :whacked:

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Originally Posted by Bluebulldog

Oh, the trickle up effect was one of the main factors outlined when the Province started the review in 2014. It was conveniently ignored.

My Summer students all will have elevated pay scales this Summer. I'm municipal, so guess who's property tax levy is going up too?

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All cities and municipalities ..... IF ..... they hire will have to make up that difference, but that won't be seen until after the election.... and the $1 still floating there as bait!! underhanded, sneaky grab at power... !

I wonder how any thinking person can think this is fair to the franchises.... last increase in 2014 by 10 cents/coffee or sandwich. Here is a good look at the numbers.

http://business.financialpost.com/ne...imum-wage-hike



No matter how you look at it and think about the realities you can see it is just an attempt to buy the election ... then there is OHIP+ and what else will they add??? Oh and as for OHIP+ .... why 24? to buy the youth voters and lock them in of course!

I wonder how any thinking person can think you can live off $14 an hour.
That OHIP thing up to 24... ya not liking that too much.

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Originally Posted by fratri

I wonder how any thinking person can think you can live off $14 an hour.
That OHIP thing up to 24... ya not liking that too much.

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You don't get it.

The idea with minimum wage is that it's just that, minimum. If every person without experience and education was able to live a relatively nice life based on that alone, where is the initiative, where is the incentive to elevate yourself? Evidently the idea of a meritocracy, where hard work, dedication and perseverance doesn't fit well in a socialist utopia where everyone gets a prize, and no one gets left behind in school.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bluebulldog

You don't get it.
.

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I guess I don't and I am okay with that...Let me just add....
Lazy people should be fired....
unproductive people should get fired....
Incompetent people should be fired...
Irresponsible people should be fired....

Competent, responsible, dependable people should be paid well... And I am all in favour of giving bonuses to the best workers/players. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fratri

I wonder how any thinking person can think you can live off $14 an hour.
That OHIP thing up to 24... ya not liking that too much.

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It isn't a bad idea but pathetically implemented, I just can't see why Justin Trudeau's kids get free meds, paid for by the province as well as the welfare or disability parent's kids who if they got the money Justlied saved would actually have an impact. His vacation that violated the law cost taxpayers over 4X the average wage in Canada and was also paid for by the taxpayers..... the elite and Liberals' get their self designated "entitlements" and the poor, welfare, disability, old age etc. all get to pay more.... on everything but meds now.

Also putting OHIP+ at 24 is just a pathetic display of trying to buy the youth voters too. The Liberal's have pushed the gov't pharma care a few times and the costs are off the scale and the benefits negligible.




Bluebulldog
He doesn't want to understand it too. Many talented people who were making $2 or more more than minimum wage are now making just minimum wage, they are now in the same ball park with the guy that needs to use a calculator to figure out the change on $2.50 when you hand him a $5 at parking. Some places that can afford to pay more or feel uncomfortable with paying a talented, hard working person might get more but probably not $2 more.....

and coming to a large grocery/restaurant chain etc. ... in the name of "faster service and easier ordering" .... to "serve you better" of course

https://www.zerohedge.com/sites/defa...150524_mcd.jpg
or
https://modernbusinessissues.files.w...s-ordering.jpg


and so goes the 60,000 (the 150,000 includes the businesses actually closing) youth and women's jobs.

So many of you are disillusioned on the reality of todays society. I don't here a single one of you bi***ing about Alberta rising the minimum wage to $15 in October and ours is only $14. You know why it's not a big issue out there? yet have all the same stores we do? I'll wait a while for you wannabe economist to try and figure it out. Also for you to actually find data that isn't funded by corporations


It's because 11% of their population make the minimum wage in Alberta, yet here in Ontario over 33% of the population make under $15/hour. We also have the second highest post secondary educated popuation. Employers across the board are not paying livable wages in this province. A majority of graduates make minimum wage. You may not like the facts but thats an issue with you. You older folks thrieve off the backs of minimum wage and under employed earners. Minimum wage is not a "starting wage" anymore, that is our wage. If you don't like government intervention then its up to all employers to pay the employee a livible wage. The Canadian Dream is dead

You are comparing apples and oranges,

1) the minimum wage in Alberta was already $13.20

2) in much of Alberta until the NDP started killing things and the oil prices dropped the unemployment was alteast 2% lower than Ontario's rate and there was a job shortage in many parts of the province
https://www.thestar.com/news/atkinso...7-economy.html
Those Tim Hortons, McDonald’s, Burger King, Wendy’s and A&W outlets are an essential part of life in hectic “Fort Mac” and, for the most part, they depend on temporary foreign workers, who earn between $15 and $18 an hour.


3) The population and participation rates are quite different.
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...fss01c-eng.htm
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...fss01b-eng.htm

4) ethnic environments, Toronto for example is made up of Little Italy, Greektown, China town, Korean Village etc. heck there is even a few good Ethiopian etc. restaurants and much of their staff is made up of English challenged, new arrivals, women working part time and a large number of cash based jobs.
I SUSPECT that a part of the difference in the participation rate can be found here, the "cash" employment is quite high I think. I have mentioned I help a friend in a restaurant in town and I have been told the one girl there before was working for cash and making $5 an hour and had to put in unpaid time too. Apparently when they were hiring the majority of those that came in wanted a cash job and were willing to work for less than minimum wage, which he wouldn't do but is apparently is very common.

5) On that topic, the 175 labour enforcers they are hiring will probably be aimed at the cash jobs and we will see alot of ethnic retail and food locations close forcing those without English, without skills, without paper work etc. into ???? welfare ... many won't qualify etc., homelessness.... probably, worse illegal activities ... many of the young women (the group most affected by these job losses) probably yes. We already see repeated arrests in the GTA on trafficking/sexual slavery charges so their enforcement is more likely to hurt than help.

6) The majority of the immigrants to Canada end up in Ontario and according to one news report the majority of the adult Syrian refugees (although many were living in Lebanon etc.) still can't find jobs due to skills and language. Those that are doing good were mostly sponsored by someone, not so for the gov't ones that got put them in hotels and ignored often. The gov't is rushing in more while we can't even process and provide for those we have now, all while ignoring the other 99% still there. The wait times are a year or more and we see more piling up and longer waits with it just getting worse. Language is part of the problem but atleast in Quebec the thousands of Haitian refugees can speak French (sort of).
http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/c...m-is-in-chaos/
https://ipolitics.ca/2017/09/06/in-t...l-than-others/



You are right, the Canadian dream to have a future, a job, security .....well when a small business owner can't make money or needs to break the law to make a profit then it is pretty much dead and the Liberal's are doing there best to kill what is left with higher taxes, idiotic policies, electricity rates, divisive tactics to pit people against each other for votes, open borders with no security and so much waste the grand kids will be cursing this generation for allowing it!
http://business.financialpost.com/op...nalize-you-all




P.S.
TV show "Focus Ontario" information gleaned tonight:

1) They had increased costs to Tim Horton's materials but not the sales prices and there were disputes ongoing over this.
2) There are 1,847 Timmies in Ontario .... so almost double the taxes collected I estimated earlier.
3) All the NDP wants is to be able to Unionize the workers and he is either delusional or an ideologue .... in the interviews with the PC and NDP it seemed like all he could talk about was that they wanted to Unionize everything and all the businesses have bottomless pockets and were anti-worker ... typical socialist/communist


So about $80,000 * 1847 = $155,148,000 additional tax "revenue" (money out of people's pockets) for the Libs.




P.S. 2
As for Alberta....
http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...ominent-eatery
His business, he said, has hit a wall in passing those greater costs on to his customers.

“I could increase my prices by 20 or 30 per cent and risk alienating everybody, but enough’s enough,” he said.

“It broke my heart to give layoff notices to 26 really good people who are friends, like family.”

Bonkers.

Aside from being insulting to people, instead of actually debating. Mosquito has laid it out for you.

in 2014 the Liberal Government did consultation on this bill. The two main issues were the "trickle up effect", and the timeline, which was extremely swift. They ignored both.

AB has had a more prolonged implementation, allowing employers to adjust, and consumers to do likewise.

If the "Canadian Dream" is dead, then it's because the current government has effectively killed the idea that you can build something in this province, and have it succeed without giving half of it away.

You make a lot of assumptions about people based simply on their position on the matter. I respectfully suggest you realize that's a fallacy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bluebulldog

The idea with minimum wage is that it's just that, minimum. If every person without experience and education was able to live a relatively nice life based on that alone, where is the initiative, where is the incentive to elevate yourself? Evidently the idea of a meritocracy, where hard work, dedication and perseverance doesn't fit well in a socialist utopia where everyone gets a prize, and no one gets left behind in school.....

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I would agree.

Not a 'relatively nice life', but have enough money for a place to sleep and food to eat, if you work 40 hours a week.