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I called a butcher here in Kingston to have some of my deer made into sausages. The guy told me to bring in my tag that the deer was shot with to hold until I pick up my sausage. I asked if he was a hunter. He said “No”. He proceeded then to tell me there have been spot checks from the ministry. Is this BS.
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My understanding is that the CO,s want to look at the filled out tags at the butchers so that they are scanned into the system and if a poacher decides to use a extra tag he/she photocopied and its subsequently used on another animal the poacher gets caught. I know my butcher had a box full of tags,I have not looked up the regs on any legal requirement on the butcher so cannot tell you if one exists.
Good to know. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
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There's new revisions in the regs for attaching a gameseal. It now has a requirement to leave tag with butcher. There was a thread on this topic earlier this fall where i quoted a CO's thoughts on the criteria.
I took the tag to the butcher to get cut up. Brought all meat home with the tag. Then called shop where I get pepps and sausage made and took in deer and goose meat. They asked to see my outdoors card for the deer and the duck stamp for the goose, no tags. Isn't there something in regs that once processed that you don't need the tag anymore. I could be completely wrong on this part though.
Yes, it used to say something about processing but was changed this year with the new tag system.Quote:
Originally Posted by sabmgb
So if it does not matter after it is being processed then you cannot give it away without the tag, but you cannot copy the tag, so if you split the animal between hunters how would you go about this?Quote:
Originally Posted by onelessarrow
Does not make sense once the animal is cut up.
That's my understanding. The tag need to be dropped off at the butcher's, but once the deer has been cut up, the tag isn't required.
I do have a bit of a puzzle though - if you send the head to the taxidermist and the carcass to the butcher - who gets the tag?
They will just copy info off your tag into their book and give it back
The butcher requirement is new and specific.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
You only have to provide "tag info" when transporting a portion of game and i believe that hasn't changed.
Our butcher only recorded the outdoors card number, name, and WMU.....they didn’t need the tag...
We've used two butchers here ...NEITHER one has ever asked for any tag/license info. You can carry the head in the truck if you want to show a CO on the trip from camp to the butchers....but neither butcher want any 'hair' on their property. The even provide a saw to cut off the legs if you forgot and take them with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
There is no obligation in any reg that I have seen or heard about that requires a butcher to log any info. They have no authority to even ask for it.
If there was, as both have said, the MNR would be required to pay them for that service.
When transporting, the head needs to be attached to the carcass. One of our guys got whacked for transporting a skinned deer, with no head attached. You only require the tag in your possession or attached to the animal when transporting, until you get to the butcher, or where it is going to be processed for long term storage. As far as butchers taking your info, I’d assume it’s got to do with being in possession of game with no licence. They would have to be able to prove where the game came from.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Our butcher up north does not take any info. The one here does....I skin my deer up to the head and transport it to the butcher, they remove the head before processing. There is a reg that prohibits a licensed hunter from skinning or packing an animal unless the type and sex of the game is readily identifiable.....
Since wild game butchers don't need a license...either a hunting or abattoirs..they have no legal responsibility to obtain proof of kill from a hunter, not their business and they have no authority to ask for it .Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
They can provide the MNR with the name and number of the person who dropped it off, but beyond that he is no under no obligations to the MNR.
That's because it's the hunter's requirement, not the butchers.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Read the reg's on attaching game seal, where it says "must"
The butcher can also tell you to stuff your deer where the sun don’t shine !!!Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
If the MNR check a butcher, and they are in possession of a bunch of deer, they better have the info of who they belong to, hence the taking of names and outdoors card numbers.
Once you are at the butchers, tagging and possession of your tag no longer apply.Quote:
Originally Posted by onelessarrow
Page 33 of the regulations has the regulations written out.
We were never allowed to bring a deer with the hide on to any butcher that we ever used, skin it and put cheese cloth on it, this was normal. We were not coming home from the camp, we were going from the camp to the butcher, I expect that a conversation with the CO would be fine.
You can skin it and quarter it, leave with parts, whatever you all decide and based on page 33 you are 100% legal, just have all the info on who tagged it and what it was, where, etc.
That applies to transporting parts. If you transport a whole animal, the tagging requirements apply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
When the tag holder no longer accompanies the animal, or is not readily available to show it, the tag must stay with the animal. It's a specific requirement, pretty straight forward.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Then the majority of hunters using a butcher should be charged as most butchers will not allow a hide anywhere near their shop.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Boy you guys like to read into a lot more than is written..Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
The new tag instructions:The head does NOT need to be attached to the deer...Quote:
"Para 3 ....Keep the head of the animal with the carcass until it has been transported to the site of processing and it being processed for long term storage."
A butcher does NOT 'require' your outdoor card information..your drivers license will do just fine for positive ID.
No problem transporting a skinned deer, just make sure the head is attached. Cut it off when you get to the butchers....we found out the hard way....Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Ont Reg. 544...
20. (1) A licensed hunter who kills a wildlife species under the authority of a tag shall ensure that the carcass is not skinned, cut or packed, [COLOR=#505050](a) in such a manner that the species cannot be easily identified;
[COLOR=#505050](b) if the tag specifies the type of species or the age or sex of the animal that may be hunted and killed, in such a manner that the type, age or sex of the animal cannot be easily identified; or
[COLOR=#505050](c) in a manner that is contrary to the instructions that accompany the tag. O. Reg. 544/17, s. 3.
[COLOR=#505050](2) Subsection (1) does not apply once the animal has been transported from the site of the kill to the site of processing and is being prepared for long-term storage. O. Reg. 544/17, s. 3.
Unless your buddy discarded the hide and head, I'm surprised he didn't claim the deer is simply divided. A perfectly legit example is, one person is taking the head and hide to taxidermy and the other person is taking the rest to the butcher. It's a divided deer and a exemption to the rule.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
From your own quote...
Quote:
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply once the animal has been transported from the site of the kill to the site of processing and is being prepared for long-term storage.
Keep in mind, you’re reading a Summary. The actual reg., says nothing about keeping the head separately. I posted the actual reg. I also know a member of our camp got whacked for not having the head attached......as always, it depends on the COs interpretation....Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
I know lots of people who've take their deer to the taxidermy first for hide removal prior to going to the butcher.
Exactly what I said, once it’s at the butcher, tagging requirements don’t apply ...Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Yea, let me know how that works out......so if I cut off the feet, it’s a divided deer and doesn’t need a tag....Quote:
Originally Posted by onelessarrow
And.......???? So they obviously were not stopped and checked by a CO....Quote:
Originally Posted by onelessarrow
With this new paper tag system if my butcher didn’t write down my tag Info # date time taken wmu location
And you didn’t get check in any other way
What would stop a guy from going back to a bush with copy of first tag and start hunting again
Just the risk of a $730.00 fine. The government is hoping the increased fines will keep guys honest !!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by js4fn
What's to stop a guy from just going out and shooting a deer without a tag, period....a poacher doesn't care about tags.Quote:
Originally Posted by js4fn
My deer got split multiple ways. In fact, the deer I shot was not tagged with my tag. It was a party hunt and another’s tag was used. I still have my tag. He wants to see it. Its pointless. Its a full tag not yet notched. Stupidity.
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No, the tag will be with a different portion of the deer, which has been said countless times to officers. Come on, you know this.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
You raise a good point on a divided animal. Similar to the good point Werner mentioned about the taxidermy. The reg is specific to leaving your tag when not accompanying the animal at the butcher's. They'll likely have to change the wording to tag info instead of tag.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goosesniper
You do not have to leave your tag with your deer once at the butchers....first off, the tagging reg. relates to “transport”. Secondly, there’s a specific exemption in the Regs..once at the butchers...Quote:
Originally Posted by onelessarrow
Oh, I know that skinning and taking the head off does not constitute a quartered animal, for purposes of what Fox posted ......Quote:
Originally Posted by onelessarrow
This is not my experience with butchers,most all I visit give the hunter the option to bring it in skinned or for a small fee they will skin it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Same here. Both the butcher here and up north will skin them. We have the guy up north skin our moose. For the cost split up among the crew, it’s pretty cheap....and a lot less work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
Not exactly what the summary in the regulations says:Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
However, you MUST attach the tag if you
are not immediately accompanying the
animal or immediately available to produce
the tag for inspection. For example, the tag
holder must attach the tag if he/she leave
the harvested animal at any time, including:
• transporting the animal in a vehicle that
is not occupied by the tag holder,
• leaving the animal at camp while the tag
holder goes out party hunting,
• leaving the animal at a butcher for
processing.
The instructions provided with your tag will
specify where you must attach the tag to the
animal. Your tag should be accessible and
visible for inspection purposes even when
the tag is attached to the harvested animal.
The tag must remain on your person, or
attached to the animal (when required),
until the animal is processed and prepared
for long-term storage.
The last sentence being the difference,once your at the butchers the obligation on the hunter is that the tag must still be on the animal until the animal IS PROCESSED and prepared for long term storage.
The CO,s have to be able to record the tags that have been filled out or validated.That is why they want tags on the animals if unattended and hanging at a camp,they will scan those tags the same way as they will scan them at the butchers.If any copying has been done its one way to catch it.
Again, it’s the Summary. The actual regulation wording is what counts [COLOR=#000000][COLOR=#505050][COLOR=#000000](2)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
Subsection (1) does not apply once the animal has been transported from the site of the kill to the site of processing and is being prepared for long-term storage. O. Reg. 544/17, s. 3.
As far as scanning....when the last I spoke to a CO, they don’t have scanners....
We dont normally agree but I think gilroy is right lol. The tag must remain with the animal when the person is not there. When the person leaves camp if he filled his tag it must stay on the property with the animal.
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LOL I think I will stick to the summary,leave my tag with the butcher and allow the MNR to record what they want.Is there anything in the regulations that are contrary to what I posted from the summary?Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
You believe that a hunters obligation ends for tagging and possession of the tag ONCE at the butchers.I am going with the summary and the hunters obligation
continues to have the tag attached until the animal IS PROCESSED and prepared for long term storage.
If it was what you contend how could the CO,s record tag that are filled into a date base for possible enforcement action.
Absolutely, but we are talking about the exemption once at the butchers...Quote:
Originally Posted by fishfood
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
That would include from camp until you have reached the butcher's the tag used. would need to be with the deer.
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Tag has to be notched immediately some local guys found that out lost deer and gun. 190 fine
Simple, they don’t, unless they are conducting an investigation. Our guy up north says he never sees a CO, unless they bring a seized moose in for cutting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
That’s the reason the butcher here takes our outdoors card number and name. Any question of legal possession can be followed up through the card number. It would tell them if you had a doe or buck tag etc...
I err on the side of caution as well. I left the head on, properly tagged but skinned.
The butcher says they don’t need the tag.....just the info I already mentioned .???
If its being prepared for long term storage it already has been butchered and the tag has been taken off.To suggest that implies the tag did not have to be on it prior is not correct,refer to the plain and simple wording in the summary.Any butcher had better have a tag handy to show for all and any deer he has hanging in his freezer,plain and simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
When I last spoke to a CO this fall to be precise they do have scanners to record the info on the tags,store it and if a tag is re used or copied they can catch it.
Once there its being done. I would think it would depend on the butcher if he wanted the tag left or not . Once he has all your information that's all he needs. So I would guess the guys wanting to see the tags are only protecting there own arses.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Maybe keeping an extra eye out for the ministry.
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Haha, they must have gotten them in the last three weeks !! The CO that we spoke to, just dated and initialled our tags....why? Who knows!! I suppose if he checked us again and we had tags that weren’t initialed, we would have some splainin’ to do....Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
You don’t suppose the scanners are like the ones that they were supposed to have to scan the strip on our outdoors cards ???? You should know that the wording in the summary means jack !!! It’s the legislation wording that counts.
Anyones butcher let them age like this??.
https://youtu.be/6fxtyqORxN8
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Just because "your guy" up north "never" see,s a CO means jack s---. Maybe if he saw a CO he would not be recording your outdoors card number because that,s totally wrong.I have never been to a butcher who asked for an outdoors card number.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Why would you give your outdoors card to anyone other than a CO.
Do you not know this could be detrimental to you in a number of ways?
If your butcher up north has no tags on his animals hanging I would think he would have a problem with a CO.
If I were you I would rely on the summary,reading the reg,s properly and NOT RELYING ON YOUR BUTCHER UP NORTH.
The exemption you reference Rick is related stictly to processing. Not hanging, processing. Many camps butcher their own and just like the butchers, they usually hang them for some time before processing. Now how is your exemption going to work at a camp?
From the Summary......Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
This is a summary of information dealing with hunting licences and hunting laws in Ontario. This summary is neither a legal document nor a complete collection of the current regulations. It is meant to be a convenient reference only. For complete details, see:
A.the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act, 1997, and the regulations made under this Act;
B.the Migratory Birds Convention Act, 1994 (Canada), and the Migratory Birds Regulations;
C.the Endangered Species Act, 2007, and the regulations made under this Act;
D.the Species at Risk Act (Canada), with regard to federally listed species that are threatened, endangered or extirpated and their critical habitat; and
E.the Trespass to Property Act, 1990.
I figured you would know better !!!
First off, it’s not MY exemption. It’s the law.Quote:
Originally Posted by onelessarrow
You don’t need to tag your deer at camp, as long as you are right there with it. Once you leave to hunt etc., it must be tagged.....
With respect to butchering while at camp, you should talk to your CO. That section which appears to be new, says a hunter can’t skin, package etc. Unless the species, sex etc., if the game cant be readily identified....I have no idea how they will interpret [COLOR=#505050]that....
[COLOR=#505050]
20. (1) A licensed hunter who kills a wildlife species under the authority of a tag shall ensure that the carcass is not skinned, cut or packed,
[COLOR=#505050](a) in such a manner that the species cannot be easily identified;
[COLOR=#505050](b) if the tag specifies the type of species or the age or sex of the animal that may be hunted and killed, in such a manner that the type, age or sex of the animal cannot be easily identified; or
[COLOR=#505050](c) in a manner that is contrary to the instructions that accompany the tag. O. Reg. 544/17, s. 3.
[COLOR=#505050](2) Subsection (1) does not apply once the animal has been transported from the site of the kill to the site of processing and is being prepared for long-term storage. O. Reg. 544/17, s. 3.
[COLOR=#505050](3) No person shall possess a carcass skinned, cut or packed in contravention of subsection (1). O. Reg. 544/17, s. 3.
Reply. I know that your butcher,s knowledge of the law counts for jack ----. The average guy reads the summary and its a pretty good guide,also considering the butcher,s that I use are asking for the tags to be left with the animals might also mean they are going with the summary.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
I think you would be better served with "asking a CO the question about leaving a tag on your animal at a butchers.Instead of relying on a butcher up north who does not keep the tag on hand and then asks for your outdoors card number LOL.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
P.S. If you want me to do your hunter reporting for you this year,changing your address for you,applying for licenses for you ,just send me your outdoors card number......
No thanks, I’m pretty sure that’s way beyond your level of comprehension !!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
I did on this subject and have already posted it but here it is again.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Quote from the CO.
"You would need to attach the tag if you are not immediately accompanying the animal or immediately available to produce it for inspection. So if you’re leaving it with a butcher, you would need to leave your notched tag. The tag must remain on the animal until it is processed and prepared for long term storage.
Based on the info, if the animal is simply skinned, it is not processed and prepared for long term storage.
Its actually your level of comprehension that is lacking here,using your quoted regulation:Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Subsection (1) does not apply once the animal has been transported from the site of the kill to the site of processing and is being prepared for long-term storage. O. Reg. 544/17, s. 3.
So lets try once again SLOWLY...for you as I know your getting along in years.To get to a stage for "long term storage" ie the animals is butchered already and in packets and marked.PRIOR to this its a hanging animal that has to have a TAG attached to it,period,do not go past go.The tag must be with this animal until its butchered and cut into pieces,at that stage you no longer have anything to attach it to.But the butchers will probably want to keep these tags until you pick up the meat box,if they are visited by a CO they have a box of meat and a tag to go along with it and probably the clients phone number.
BINGO. But even this simple explanation will be beyond some folks comprehension.Quote:
Originally Posted by onelessarrow
This tag system we have now has to be the worst system ever in the wildlife management arena. Ridiculous.
Anyway...leave the tag with the butcher and off you go. No big deal. When the CO comes to the butcher it’s a simple check and out the door. I have had butchers ask for the tag at times and I’ve had others that record your license in a book. It comes down to covering his behind and not wasting half a day explaining where every carcass has come from.
In a perfect world we would go back to a tag system where something would be permanently attached by a waterproof type system that is easily notched and affixed. The sticky tags we had in the past work alright but there are alternatives like a zip tie style that also would be lovely. I would love to see a species color coded credit card size plastic square that u can punch out the pre-cut holes for date time etc then affix with a zip tie. Even something like they put in a cows ear would be an improvement.
End of the day let’s just all tag our game and follow the rules. This hairbrain printing paper tag nonsense is hopefully gonna go the way of the doodoo bird and common sense will prevail....
Some of these folks even give their outdoors card number away,willy,nilly.LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
If you are leaving the tag with the butcher there is a reason they don't ask. In big print right close to the top of your tag is guess what - your Outdoors Card Number labeled as such in plain big font. Every time you drop an animal with a tag you are providing your number or if dropping for someone else their number.
You are not protecting anything by guarding you card - all the info is on the tag for all to see.
As an aside i leave my tag as better safe than sorry and it makes no difference to me.
Great post biggamer and from the CO,s point of view they would probably all agree,terrible system,harder to enforce.I liked the phone in system and plastic tag in the mail after the draw,worked well should never have been changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by biggamer
I would hazard a guess that butchers don’t hang deer in their coolers with the heads on. I know both butchers we use, don’t. They cut the heads off and dispose of them. So, what your COs interpretation is....you have committed an offence because your tag was not attached to the carcass?? That just does not make sense..Once you deliver your deer to the butcher, you have no control over the tag...or the deer.....when it is left with the butcher, it is being processed.Quote:
Originally Posted by onelessarrow
The debate here between a few of us is whether you need to leave a tag on an animal.I say you do until its fully processed and you really have no choice but to leave the tag even with the outdoor card number.At least a few others believe you do not need to leave the tag with the animal,simply drop it off at the butcher.Quote:
Originally Posted by Species8472
In both scenarios your tag number is compromised .
Don’t confuse the old boy. He’s having enough trouble !!Quote:
Originally Posted by Species8472
The butchers we have used want the tag with the animal. They get regular visits from the MNR and don't what to get involved with any circumstances that arise from having an untagged animal in their possession. They also ask that the animal is whole except for field dressing. They want to skin the animal themselves before processing. This is to prevent getting carcasses that are contaminated with dirt and such from bad handling practices being dropped off. When you pick the meat up, you are also given the hide and the head to dispose of as you wish. If you have planned to get a mount, they will cape it when removing the hide.
I realize what the debate is about. I just thought your comments about guarding your outdoors card # from the butcher were silly as every time you drop/transfer an animal with a tag you are providing it. As i stated I leave my tag with butcher - why chance it. That way you are covered regardless of what mood the CO is in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
The reality is, they changed the law. You now have to leave your tag with the butcher, when that's never been a requirement.
While at the same time, they changed the law that you don't have to affix a tag to the animal.
Ridiculous really.
Yeah I don't get the outdoor card number paranoia either
They changed the law.. But your tag was already always left on the deer for many years . So in theory it is the same as its always been [emoji1787] besides you dont have to attach if your always with your deer [emoji23][emoji54][emoji106]Quote:
Originally Posted by onelessarrow
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I hope after reading the last few posts your not confused any more about leaving your TAG on the animal.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
So unless your whole group stays together including your drive to the butcher and the whole time at camp . Well then maybe you dont have to tag your deer .
But if only 1 guy takes in groups 4 deer they will be tagged [emoji39][emoji3526]
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Great video from an expert. I'm a big believer in aging meat but there are some folks who don't believe it makes a difference. Our deer never got skinned even until just before going to the butcher. I do the same thing here at home, deer is hanging with hide on until being prepared to bring in the basement for processing.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishfood
Cheers
So if your wanting to get a shoulder mount done you have to leave the cape and head there until its processed?
What if the butcher is doing 500 deer that week, He is not going to have room to store your cape and rack indoors in a freezer.
How do you convince a butcher to keep the tag? Ours said he didnt need them, He just copied info down off the tag and we took the heads home (tags still attached now month later).
Whole damn system is a joke. What would game warden charged me with for with having 3 deer heads WITH tags on, in the back of the truck after we just left the butcher?
He can charge the butcher for not keeping the tag? With what?
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I’m not confused at all !Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
The next time you are at your butchers, take a look in his cooler, and let me know how many deer are hung in there with heads on and tags affixed, as you believe is the law....
Some here think you would have to make sure your butcher hung your deer in his cooler with the head on...Quote:
Originally Posted by SongDog
Because, in order for it to be tagged properly, the tag has to be affixed to a horn or slit in an ear.....
Like I’m sure that will ever happen !!!
As for butchering your own save the heads a little while . Keeps the tags .
I'm surprised more people dont do their own?? That's a part of the hunt well to me it would be.
Plenty of YouTube videos to show you exactly how it's done.
Also I'm surprised not many actually build a controlled area to store the deer at the right temperature. It's not that hard I have built incubators in the past it would be the same concept just at a lower temperature. An extra shed some power a thermostat and probably an ac unit would all it would take . Little bit of improvisation you can build your own outdoor cooler. Possibly a heater for those cold cold times. The weather is so unpredictable these days it would be good to have.
My grandfather always hung for at least a week in the shed. now adays its either frozen or to hot . Let them hang they taste better better then getting a deer when it's hot and have to butcher it right away.
Just a thought as everyone is always working on the camp .
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Nobody said anything about heads in a freezer.
On the tag it says that the head of the animal must be with the carcass until it has been transported to the site of processing. The new requirement is that a tag must be affixed and left with the animal at the butcher. It doesn't specify where.
Quote:
Originally Posted by onelessarrow
Well actually, Gilroy maintains you have to keep the tag affixed until it is actually processed....which means you would have to ensure the butcher keeps the head on, while it’s in his cooler, waiting to be cut.....freezer... has never been mentioned.
i guess common sense isn’t so common anymore !!
After reading through this thread, I have a question...
I shoot a deer, I notch the tag, I put tag back in my wallet, take deer home, hang deer in garage for a few days.......... Now am I obligated to leave the tag with the deer when I leave to go to work? or am I just confusing things even more?
That's how I would read it.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
If your garage door got opened while you were out and a co drove by, I would think, if he saw it, he would stop. Then the regulations will be looked at.
It says attached to the antler or ear, how about if it's a doe, and I want to cut/toss the head? I guess just leave the tag attached to the animal anywhere is better than nowhere?Quote:
Originally Posted by onelessarrow
Hanging at your place you go to town for lunch Tag it till it’s cut and wrapped
The tag says the head only has to accompany the carcass until it gets to your garage, if thats you're processing site. That's when you can throw the head away, but keep the tag with the deer until you get started on it.
Shoot it,notch the tag,dress it,skin it,take to butcher,zip tie notched tag to hind quarter through hocks. What is the issue and why is this so confusing? FFS!! :rolleye:
Just to add to the nitpicking, I would say notch the tag before dressing the deer, just in case you get a CO with a burr under his bonnet.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
John
That’s fine if it’s a moose. Deer are to be tagged on a horn or ear. Some guys here were charged because they tagged their deer on the hocks....Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Having something so simple cause such a ruckus of a thread leaves me to wonder. Is half this group skirting the law and always under watch by a CO? I have never seen so much worry about something so simple. A CO would have to be out for your blood specifically to split hairs and lay a charge for a clearly tagged animal.
No CO in Ontario is going to expect someone who is at a rural camp but living in a city to take the head to the city and dispose of it there when it can be left in the woods. Unless you are trying to skirt a law, hide something or have been caught for doing things wrong before you will be fine .
Simplest way about it would be to skin and quarter the animal, you can then transport with just the tag information. Once the animal is quartered and in transit all that is required is the tag information and this is all that the butcher should require too.
From the regs; Note: If you are transporting a portion of
a carcass that does not have a tag (e.g.,
the animal was divided or quartered at your
hunt camp prior to final transport), you
must be prepared to provide information
about the tag holder (e.g., name, Outdoors
Card number, licence number) and details
of the hunt (e.g., date and location of kill)
if requested by a conservation officer. Refer
to the General Regulations section for
additional requirements if you are shipping
or transporting wildlife in containers.
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Seriously their not out for blood their after money they need to file charges to prove their needed. And let judge decide. Never see how many of their charges get overturnedQuote:
Originally Posted by oaknut
That's as far from the truth as I can see it getting. They are there because they are needed, story after story of trespassing, poaching and douchebags that care only about themselves proves that. I have never been charged. I don't know of anyone being charged for doing everything right.i have had some officers say some stupid crap over the years and ask questions they had no business asking but I have never had an issue with any of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by js4fn
CO's are there and have a job to do, if you think you are going to screw around with them you can expect to fall under scrutiny.
Wildlife charges being overturned?!? How about all the charges the police lay where people get off with a slap on the wee wee, there's a whole other thread on that.
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Where did I say that was the case,please point out my post to that effect?Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Gilroy did not say a single word about a tag being on a deer at all.What I did say was that the tag must be with the deer.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
So again I will make it very simple for you and talk SLOWLY. This year I shot a deer,the tag was validated at the kill site and placed in my jacket pocket.The deer was transported right away to the butchers,the butcher immediately took the deer from my van right onto his meat hanger and started the processing right away by cutting the back straps out for me to take back to camp.The tag went right into the box with the others and a corresponding label was made out for the butcher to keep track of my box.My tag never went onto the deer at all because it was into processing right away and it would be redundant to tag it.
I might stand corrected on this Brother but I think the tag to the hind quarters is out this past year.From memory I believe its the ear or antler.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Now I have a bone of contention with this and previously wrote about it on this forum.I do not believe any where in the summary do they give the specific instructions on where to tag the animals,they make a big fuss about telling us there are NEW TAGGING requirements without actually giving them.The only place you see the specifics about where to place the tag on an animal is on the tag you have in your hand.I believe even the summary sheet refers you back to the tag itself.Of course all three main species Moose,Bear and Deer have to be different.
As I say I do not have my deer tag to refer to as I used it so if you can dig up a copy and read it I believe its the ear or antler this year.
LOL I am sure if I am wrong I will be IMMEDIATELY corrected on this forum.
Yep. I edited the post to reverse the two. The tag MUST be notched at the kill site before all processing.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjyb
Under the old system,that's true,but not under the new regs. That would be kind of difficult if the head was already detached for the butcher. We have the option of still simply carrying the notched tag with us while carrying the carcass or zip tie the tag through a hock without committing an offense. What the butcher's system is doesn't much matter once it's hanging in the cooler.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
You better check on that..... moose yes, deer.. horn or ear...the reg. Says you have to tag as described on the issued tag......I recall getting a moose tag one year, with instructions on how to tag a deer.....no mention of moose. They obviously printed the tag in the wrong paper...Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
The requirement to have the tag on the antler or ear ends at the processing site. That's clear by the new instuctions written on the tag. "The head of the animal must be with the carcass "until" it has been transported to the site of processing."
The new written part of the butcher requirement is self explanatory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
Yep,sure enough. I just read the instructions on the tag (I haven't had a chance to use it.....yet). Lucky I read this thread. Having said that,we've decided to butcher our own animals this year,so,unless we were to receive an "official visit",none of this will be an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
It never was, if people just learned to comprehend instructions and apply, what evidently is not, common sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
After reading all of this I'm glad I process my own deer. I will never use a butcher again knowing what I know now! :)
The thing here is that I did butcher my own deer. The legs, rib meat neck meat and butt were cut off the bone and wrapped to get sausage made. We made steaks and chops from the remainder. The deer was divided amongst 3 guys. I was just bringing my deer meat from one butcher (me) to another to get sausage made. This tag was left on the lower leg and disposed of.Quote:
Originally Posted by bellerivercrossbowhunter
From the moment I left my house on Opening day. The law was followed. This was a text book Hunt. Everything from the hunt to the processing. Under normal circumstances and how deer meat can be given away. Even permission to hunt. There should be no reason a butcher should require a tag. Its total BS.
I could see it if you were bring them an entire deer to process. But bringing in 15 plbs of meat to get made into sausage is just dump. .
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We take game meat, moose and deer to a processor near Goderich, for snack sticks and summer sausage. They do a huge amount of wild game meat of all kinds, so it’s a big operation. We have to call to make an appointment to bring our meat in, they are so busy. They take down our outdoors card number, name address etc., they don’t ask about tags though. There should be no reason for the tag....Quote:
Originally Posted by Goosesniper
We use Atwood Heritage meats......I highly recommend them if in your area.
What is NOT COMMON sense is for the bean counters to have changed this system in the first place,supposedly to make it easier and cheaper.So we can re cap here and I think I most people on this forum will agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
(1) Stupid to have hunters looking into the summary of regulations and not being able to find simple instructions on where to tag an animal.
(2) Changing the locations on where to tag an animal.
(3) Giving us flimsy easy to destroy paper tags when they know we are in the snow and rain and mud.
(4) Placing a burden on "butchers" to go along with this nonsense.(you might even agree with me on this one).
(5) Giving poachers the opportunity to play with system by not having to immediately TAG the animal at the kill site.
I could go on about the problems about printing tag,s and the bs if you screw it up the first time,the problems if you do not have access to computers and printers or even internet access.The problems with driving to a service Ontario location and finding they do not even sell licenses there and having to drive miles further,then doing it all over again if you are successful in the draw and need a tag printed.
I do thank the forum members and OP for there input and starting this thread,I know I have learned a few things on here and hopefully that is why we are here to share each others experiences.
^ case in point...
AbsolutelyQuote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
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1) Instructions have not changed, they are actually written on the tagQuote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
2) The location for deer has not changed, it was always on the head, either the antler or the ear
3) These paper tags are no different than protecting your cell phone or any other piece of electronics, 2 ziplock bags generally does it with no problem, 1 you can then attach to the animal if needed
4) The butcher does not have to go along with anything, the onus is on the hunter to keep the tag on the animal until it gets to the butcher for processing, nothing says that the butcher needs to have it on there, just that it has to be on there until it gets to the place where it is processed
5) How does this change anything for poachers? You still have to notch the tag immediately and have it with the animal. If a deer is being pulled out of the bush on Wednesday and the tag is notched on Monday that would have some interesting explaining to do
It is a new system, I guess it is really hard to teach an old dog a new trick but honestly, if you can figure out how to get on here on the forum and complain then you should be able to figure out how to keep your tag dry.
Actually , your #4 has changed. I do not need my tag affixed to my deer when I’m taking my deer to the butcher...here we go again !!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Absolutely.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
If it's your deer correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
If someone else is taking it in, before it's skinned..tag will be on the head...
Otherwise, once skinned, just Just keep the head(s) with the carcass(s) until you drop it off...
No legal requirement for you to give or the butcher to ask for any of your MNR information. He has NO authority to be in possession of your Outdoor card number..
This thread is like watching 5 minutes of CNN, where self proclaimed experts tell you what your lying eyes are actually seeing.
The new regulation word for word. "the tag holder MUST attach the tag if he/she leaves the harvested animal at any time, including, leaving the animal at a butcher for
processing."
Please help us all understand how this NEW requirement, even though its clearly written in plain english, somehow means nothing in practical terms.
Interpret this new section for us Mike .....Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
20 (1)(c) - O.Reg 665/98
Skin, cut or pack carcass in a manner contrary to instructions accompanying tag
Set Fine: $200.00
Total Payable: $240.00
A licensed hunter who kills a wildlife species under the authority of a tag shall ensure that the carcass is not skinned, cut or packed,
(a) in such a manner that the species cannot be easily identified;
(b) if the tag specifies the type of species or the age or sex of the animal that may be hunted and killed, in such a manner that the type, age or sex of the animal cannot be easily identified; or
(c) in a manner that is contrary to the instructions that accompany the tag.
[QUOTE=onelessarrow;1100046]This thread is like watching 5 minutes of CNN, where self proclaimed experts tell you what your lying eyes are actually seeing.
The new regulation word for word. "the tag holder MUST attach the tag if he/she leaves the harvested animal at any time, including, leaving the animal at a butcher for
processing."
Please help us all understand how this NEW requirement, even though its clearly written in plain english, somehow means nothing in practical terms.[/QUOTE
That is not what the regulation says.....it’s what the Summary says. COs interpret the actual regs not the Summary.....
Its the long version of "follow your damn tag instructions or your getting a fine,"Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
In this case, the new instructions on the tag to "keep head WITH carcass" is new, despite Fox claiming the tag instructions haven't changed or you claiming the head must be attached to the carcass earlier in this thread.
Im telling you there have been charges laid for doing that exact thing....conduct yourself accordingly!Quote:
Originally Posted by onelessarrow
what if your back backing the animal out a long ways or flying out?
yet to see a bull moose head come out on a plane I have been on, lots of skinned quarters where the dicks still attached to the quarter
We've been using Atwood for years as well but haven't been asked for anything. Maybe because the guy that takes it down knows them as he takes all his beef there to.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Correct, that’s what the act prescribed for moose. The scrotal sack or vulva must be attached to the quarter that has the tag affixed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt86
Could be, but they sure do great work !!Quote:
Originally Posted by cantgetright
When your buddy got whacked, was the head with the carcass or was it not in his possession?Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
In the back of his truck, with the deer....when you read the actual legislation, it says the tag has to be attached to the “carcass”, as indicated on the tag. Obviously the CO interpreted that to be the whole animal, not a detached head that may or may not belong to the skinned carcass. Stands to reason, from his perspective, the head and tag says buck, when the skinned carcass could have been a doe.....from an enforcement perspective, it makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by onelessarrow
This was a few years ago when your deer had to be tagged when transporting.
What happened to the regulation in your post #23 why has subsection (2) been omitted?Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Ont Reg. 544...
20. (1) A licensed hunter who kills a wildlife species under the authority of a tag shall ensure that the carcass is not skinned, cut or packed,
(a) in such a manner that the species cannot be easily identified;
(b) if the tag specifies the type of species or the age or sex of the animal that may be hunted and killed, in such a manner that the type, age or sex of the animal cannot be easily identified; or
(c) in a manner that is contrary to the instructions that accompany the tag. O. Reg. 544/17, s. 3.
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply once the animal has been transported from the site of the kill to the site of processing and is being prepared for long-term storage. O. Reg. 544/17, s. 3.
Don’t know. Probably fat fingers trying to do this in my phone....what reg. Do you want to see? I see now, they are different regs. One is 665/98. The other is 544/17, which has sub 2....it being the most currentQuote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply once the animal has been transported from the site of the kill to the site of processing and is being prepared for long-term storage. O. Reg. 544/17, s. 3.
This part that you appear to have omitted.
I am pretty sure its not going to sink in.Quote:
Originally Posted by onelessarrow
But its confusing,some butchers do one thing up north and some do other things here.Some butcher ask,s for the out doors card number,some do not.Some CO,s apparently initial tags when checking camps and some do not.Very strange stuff.
See my previous response....Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
(1) Instructions have not changed, they are actually written on the tag
Reply. I know they are written on the tag,they used to written in the summary and were easy to find.
2) The location for deer has not changed, it was always on the head, either the antler or the ear
Reply. I believe at one time they were tagged on the hock as indicated by Trimmer,but I may stand corrected on this.
3) These paper tags are no different than protecting your cell phone or any other piece of electronics, 2 ziplock bags generally does it with no problem, 1 you can then attach to the animal if needed.
Reply. These paper tags are different from the plastic one,s that worked fine and were much more tamper proof and waterproof. Why are we going backwards?
I do not know what electronics have to do with the subject matter of paper tags?
4) The butcher does not have to go along with anything, the onus is on the hunter to keep the tag on the animal until it gets to the butcher for processing, nothing says that the butcher needs to have it on there, just that it has to be on there until it gets to the place where it is processed
Reply. It now appears the butchers want the tag left with the animal until its processed,this seems to concur with the regulation.
5) How does this change anything for poachers? You still have to notch the tag immediately and have it with the animal. If a deer is being pulled out of the bush on Wednesday and the tag is notched on Monday that would have some interesting explaining to do
Reply. Surprised you would even post this considering the scores of posts on this forum about this topic and copying the tag several times and using the copied tags.The only way you get caught is if one tag used has been recorded as previously filled on a scan.If a deer is pulled out of the bush on a Wednesday and the tag is notched on a Monday,why would you have some explaining to do.
It is a new system, I guess it is really hard to teach an old dog a new trick but honestly, if you can figure out how to get on here on the forum and complain then you should be able to figure out how to keep your tag dry.[/QUOTE]
Reply. I did not need to keep my tag dry in the old system,so why are we being burdened with a backward new system.
Kinda like getting caught with your fingers in the cookie jar.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Only in your little mind !!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
It used to say 'attached' it has been changed to 'with' as indicated on your tag.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Now don,t get abusive because you have been playing fast and loose with your so often quoted regulations.You have also indicated on several posts certain things I was supposed to have said and I called you out on them and you still have not replied.Post 96 and Post 97.You got any more porkies to tell,I kind of like your far fetched post #51 LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
"Haha, they must have gotten them in the last three weeks !! The CO that we spoke to, just dated and initialled our tags....why? Who knows!! I suppose if he checked us again and we had tags that weren’t initialed, we would have some splainin’ to do.."
Ok, one last time....here is the actual regulation. Read it over slowly......I don’t care what you think the tag says.... this is the actual “law”....Especially Sub (4)...and Sub (5)....Quote:
Originally Posted by onelessarrow
[COLOR=#505050]19. (1) A licensed hunter who holds a tag to hunt a wildlife species and who kills a member of the species shall, immediately after the kill, at the site of the kill and before moving the carcass, invalidate the tag by following the instructions that accompany the tag. O. Reg. 544/17, s. 3.
[COLOR=#505050](2) A licensed hunter who holds a tag to hunt a wildlife species shall not invalidate the tag with respect to an animal that he or she kills unless the animal is of the same species, type, age and sex as is specified,
[COLOR=#505050](a) on the tag or on the validation certificate that accompanies the tag; or
[COLOR=#505050](b) in the case of a licensed hunter hunting deer in a controlled deer hunt management unit, in the information on the licence summary that validates a previously issued deer tag, as described in clause 38 (1) (b). O. Reg. 544/17, s. 3.
[COLOR=#505050](3) A licensed hunter who holds a tag to hunt a wildlife species shall not invalidate the tag with respect to an animal that is killed by another person. O. Reg. 544/17, s. 3.
[COLOR=#505050](4) Following the kill of a species referred to in subsection (1), the licensed hunter shall either keep the invalidated tag on his or her person or attach it to the animal in the manner specified in the instructions that accompany the tag. O. Reg. 544/17, s. 3.
[COLOR=#505050](5) Despite subsection (4), a licensed hunter who kills an animal shall not keep the invalidated tag on his or her person but shall attach it to the animal in the manner specified in the instructions that accompany the tag before he or she,
[COLOR=#505050](a) ceases to be immediately accompanying the carcass; or
[COLOR=#505050](b) ceases to be immediately available to produce the tag for inspection to confirm the lawful killing of the animal. O. Reg. 544/17, s. 3.
[COLOR=#505050](6) No person shall possess an animal that ought to have had a tag attached to it in accordance with subsection (5). O. Reg. 544/17, s. 3.
[COLOR=#505050](7) The licensed hunter shall ensure that an invalidated tag is kept on his or her person or attached to the carcass in accordance with subsections (4) and (5) until such time as the animal has been transported from the site of the kill to the site of processing and is being prepared for long-term storage. O. Reg. 544/17, s. 3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Your first line does not comply with the law in the last line.Next.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
You really must work on your comprehension skills !Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
All this confusion could’ve been easily solved if the MNR learned from some of the USA state.
Most of the place that I hunt down in the USA you have a tags that part you have to keep it with the meet
and part of it you have to keep it with the antler and Cape
So, ignore the new revisions in the summary and on the tag, because they won't have any practical application like instruction, traceability or requirement.
Instead, we're to believe that the regulations you posted, illustrates that we're now not allowed to skin a deer before we take it to a butcher? Seriously.
Nothing in the regs you reference prohibits the separation of the carcass.
The only reference is on the tag. It now instructs you to keep the head with the carcass. There is no other reason to have that written on the tag other than to instruct those who have separated the carcass.
I suppose if a "certain member" on here is stuck in the stone age and believe CO,s are running around "initialing" tags by hand and do not now use scanners to record tags that are invalidated we will get unneeded confusion.It seems pretty common sense to me that is why the tag is left with the butcher to record it being now used,the same way if they checked a camp,found 4 deer hanging with tags filled out they would also scan them into a database.There must be some way the MNR are able to track and record tags filled out.Quote:
Originally Posted by onelessarrow
Well Gilly, there’s 6 moose tags in our group that were initialled and dated by the CO that checked us, there were 5 deer that were checked by the local CO during the shotgun hunt....not one was “scanned”....so, I’m pretty sure you can draw your own conclusion.....especially when the CO said they have no scanners....but then again, drawing a conclusion is likely way above your pay grade....but then again I guess you would have to actually get out and hunt, instead of trolling in this forum.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
I would suspect that what Skull describes for tag management out of the states is where we're headed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
After the revisions to this years tag requirements, it would be a simple alteration to the tag with an instruction to what piece of the tag must remain.
Many times after dropping a deer a long way from camp,hunters have skinned,quartered and bagged the meat along with the hide and head to carry it out on pack frames.The beauty of the new system requirement is that it's no longer necessary to attach anything as long as the hunter with the invalidated tag is with the meat. AFAIK,this practice is still legal. It will remain to be seen how a CO will handle the situation when checking quarters. Even if a tag is attached to an accompanying head,how is the CO to know that the bagged meat and the head are from the same animal?Quote:
Originally Posted by onelessarrow
Exactly.... but I think the regulation regarding skinning, packing etc. Deals with that....as you and I know, these are always open to interpretation !!!!! Just depends on the LEO...Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Its never been against the law to separate the carcass, only that it had to be immediately tagged.
There's no better place to be, then in the field when bringing out quarters if a CO stops you and needs to verify requirements. easy peesy
As far as the CO not knowing if all the parts are from one carcass, unless there's something out of place, like 3 left legs and 1 right, why the hell would they. If its somewhat suspicious, they'll take samples.
Through my work, I've had interaction with the DNA cluster at Trent University here in Peterborough and know for certain the Ministry endlessly submits samples for testing for precisely this reason as well as others.
Almost to funny to believe,so the MNR have brought in a tag that is capable of being scanned but are going to go around the Province initialing and dating tags.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Did it not occur to you that as an investigative technique they may not want you to know they have this aid.BTW did they take your tags back to the truck when they checked you? So I have no reason to disbelieve what my local CO told me they have scanners,but I do disbelieve you because every time you lost ground in this debate you seemed to need to make up a different story,like your butcher asked for the out of doors card.
Your the only guy I have heard of who provides his out of doors card to a butcher and also gets his tags specially initialed by his local CO .LOL
Now no need to worry about my pay grade I have done very well with my paid duties in the GTA over the years and as a result have a beautiful place to hunt with a great camp on a semi private lake.I did get out to hunt and I am shocked that you have not read my 2019 hunting report as you appear to love to read my posts and comment on them ad lib.
I think the forum readers will decide who has been telling porkies on this thread. LOL
Like most posts...Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
https://i.imgur.com/7UmxgF8m.jpg
QR Code. A QR code (short for "quick response" code) is a type of barcode that contains a matrix of dots. It can be scanned using a QR scanner or a smartphone with built-in camera. ... For example, scanning a QR code with your phone might open a URL in your phone's web browser.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
QR code:
• Will be readable only by enforcement officers who will
be able to determine if it has been duplicated.
• Information within the code validates that the tag is the
one that was printed from the system with other
information to link the code back to the licence
summary.
http://www.ofah.org/zonej/wp-content...H_20130313.pdf
MikePal,
Vasa vana plurimum sonant
I agree based on the nonsense of your last few posts...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
ErmQuote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
So my fall turkey tag took service Ontario 3 times before actual tag printed with calls to Mnr to reset summary and receipt printed each time
So my tag had 3 dots if I would have used first summary page with 1 dot what then it’s my fault?
Service Ontario gave me all the pages
Feel free not to read.Next.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
Then stop sending posts addressed to me...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
This year I bought a smoker and a sausage stuffer and am now making my own snack sticks and jerky. I can't believe how easy it is and am kicking myself for not buying these items sooner. Everyone that tries the meat treats loves them!! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Goosesniper
Well actually I was replying to the post you sent me,its very rude not to reply to someone after they have reached out to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Anyway I do hope you read my next few posts because if you don,t Santa will not be coming to visit .LOL
Haha haha!!!! Just like the magnetic strip on your OD card!!!! (Oh wait a minute, yours is an Out of Doors Card.).... my bad ! How long has that been !!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
I could give you the COs name and email address but I won’t subject him to a troll!!!! Troll on...McGilly !!!
now where’s that ignore button ????
Oh deer you sound like Andrew Scheer.LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
There's a club...welcome :)Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Must be a big club !!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Maybe just maybe they dont have the proper amount of scanners??
Or maybe it's in its test runs
Maybe they signed some and scanned others . Either way just that peice of paper can be scanned if it has any sort of barcode.
The scanned ones will go into a computer the signed ones will be recorded if they see you again. Remember it's new things will get easier as time goes on.
We need some ice soon [emoji849]
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