Well, I ordered a smoke pole.

[MikePal]

I e-mailed Higginson's to confirm....YES they still sell a pound of T7 for $32 ! Heck of a deal, 1/2 the cost of BH209...

[Fox]

I e-mailed Higginson's to confirm....YES they still sell a pound of T7 for $32 ! Heck of a deal, 1/2 the cost of BH209...

Almost the same cost as smokeless then, but I am now reading about the crud ring, I guess the primer has to be right to reduce this.

[MikePal]

The ML specific primers do reduce some of the crud, but it's really not as big an issue as some make it out to be. Especially if you're using tight sabots that scrap the barrel with every load.

I've used T7 for many years and just got into the habit of running a wet swab patch down the barrel between shots to maintain consistency between shots. It adds a step, so it isn't an issue.

[marx911]

I've used both T7 and BH 209 powders, and would never go back to T7. Dirty as all get out, as MikePal said, swabbing generally required between shots, definitely required after 2-3 shots.

No swabbing/crud ring with BH209. You pay more for the convenience, but if you shop around, you can find it for an ok price (still more expensive than the alternatives). I bought another container at Cabela's in the fall on sale for $60 plus tax. I worked up a load of BH209 in my CVA this fall and shot about 25 rounds and did not have to clean the barrel until I put the MZ back in the safe.

[Big Jack]

Not actually true, the energy of the substitutes is greater for the same weight, they are less dense. 777 for example is about 75gr by weight for 100gr by volume. So an 80gr by volume load is about 60gr by volume and your can of powder is sold by volume. So, when you compare to smokeless you save about $20 over the entire volume of your powder, Pyrodex is even cheaper, Blackhorn 209 is just god awful expensive, ha ha.

Fox you save $20 per pound of powder used or about 50%.

I’ll go one farther and say that you can achieve the same results as 777 at about 36 grains but in the end you save zero dollars as you shoot more!

Congrats on your ML and my two cents - go with BH209 if your gun is capable. That stuff works so darn well it’s crazy!

I’ve shot both and it is no comparison on four of the guns I’ve played with.

My opinion only your mileage will vary!

[Big Jack]

I've used both T7 and BH 209 powders, and would never go back to T7. Dirty as all get out, as MikePal said, swabbing generally required between shots, definitely required after 2-3 shots.

No swabbing/crud ring with BH209. You pay more for the convenience, but if you shop around, you can find it for an ok price (still more expensive than the alternatives). I bought another container at Cabela's in the fall on sale for $60 plus tax. I worked up a load of BH209 in my CVA this fall and shot about 25 rounds and did not have to clean the barrel until I put the MZ back in the safe.

Don’t forget the increased velocity - that alone makes every black powder gun capable of using bh209 a 200 yard plus outfit.

[Fox]

Fox you save $20 per pound of powder used or about 50%.

I’ll go one farther and say that you can achieve the same results as 777 at about 36 grains but in the end you save zero dollars as you shoot more!

Congrats on your ML and my two cents - go with BH209 if your gun is capable. That stuff works so darn well it’s crazy!

I’ve shot both and it is no comparison on four of the guns I’ve played with.

My opinion only your mileage will vary!

No, based on the actual weight of the 777 powder it is a lot closer than what was quoted, 75gr for a 100gr by volume load, so if you are using an 80gr by volume that is only 60gr by weight. So, compared to the 40gr weight of the smokeless you are only saving 33%, with a cost of $32 for 777 and $36.50 for a cost of smokeless you are saving $0.07 per shot when you shoot smokeless over 777 powder.

When it comes to velocity, 777 to Blackhorn 209, looking at about 30fps at maximum load, not really worth twice the cost to me. I know that it will be dirty but it is a muzzleloader. Budget is a very big deal, if I wanted a clean muzzleloader and had no concern for budget it would be a smokeless one but that is not the case so cleaning is something that comes with the territory. There is a significant jump though with the substitutes from standard black powder.

[MikePal]

Don’t forget the increased velocity - that alone makes every black powder gun capable of using bh209 a 200 yard plus outfit.

Hold on there big fella:

I shot Blackhorn 209 and Triple Seven FFFG over the chronograph this weekend in the short 24" barrel of my Omega X7.

The bullet was Hornady's .452/300 grain XTP Mag in Harvester long black sabots. CCI 209M's were used with Blackhorn and Winchester 209's with the T7.

The velocity shown below is the average of five shots with each load. The chronograph was ten feet from the muzzle. The bore was brushed with a dry nylon brush between BH shots and swabbed with both sides of an alcohol patch between the T7 shots.

.................. ................... VELOCITY ............................

LOAD ......... TRIPLE SEVEN FFFG ..... BLACKHORN 209

75 grains ......... 1642 fps ..................... 1571 fps .....

85 grains ......... 1749 fps ..................... 1685 fps .....

95 grains ......... 1817 fps ..................... 1746 fps .....

105 grains ........ 1875 fps ..................... 1877 fps .....

115 grains ........ 1915 fps ..................... 1947 fps .....

I thought it interesting that T7 was in the lead with the smaller charges. They about tied at 105 grains. Then BH took the lead with 115 grains. I didn't go to 125 grains because the recoil with 115 was about all I wanted to deal with in the little X7.

By the way, my hunting load of 105 grains of GOEX FFFg under that same bullet averages 1550 fps.

And considering the manufacturers recommended max load for T7 is 120gr...and that most guys find the most accurate load to be in around 80grs...I think you may be blowing smoke up our behinds Jack

[Big Jack]

Hold on there big fella:



And considering the manufacturers recommended max load for T7 is 120gr...and that most guys find the most accurate load to be in around 80grs...I think you may be blowing smoke up our behinds Jack

80 grains most accurate- not sure what they tried but we used same sabots I use in my smokeless rigs. 100 to 110 we found sub MOA but you need decent components

110 Grain loads produced velocity of1970 +/-, my Labradar does not lie Mike.

One of the guns put up 2003 on one of those loads as well. Barrel length will make a difference with BH209.

Quite frankly every gun will shoot differently depending on bore diameter and other factors and while this guy used the same for both it isn’t the hallmark of testing. Neither is what I did rather it’s my observation.

I’ve seen 100 grains by volume of 777 produce 1600 fps with a 300 grain pill - explain that one....

I gave you my two cents from what I have seen with my equipment and my two eyes not what someone else typed up and put on the internet....

You give me 1900 plus fps and you have given me a two hundred yard capable gun....

[Big Jack]

No, based on the actual weight of the 777 powder it is a lot closer than what was quoted, 75gr for a 100gr by volume load, so if you are using an 80gr by volume that is only 60gr by weight. So, compared to the 40gr weight of the smokeless you are only saving 33%, with a cost of $32 for 777 and $36.50 for a cost of smokeless you are saving $0.07 per shot when you shoot smokeless over 777 powder.

When it comes to velocity, 777 to Blackhorn 209, looking at about 30fps at maximum load, not really worth twice the cost to me. I know that it will be dirty but it is a muzzleloader. Budget is a very big deal, if I wanted a clean muzzleloader and had no concern for budget it would be a smokeless one but that is not the case so cleaning is something that comes with the territory. There is a significant jump though with the substitutes from standard black powder.

Your math = not so good. Lol but I get what you are getting at!

Here is what I was saying;

If I use 40 grains per load and you use 60.... that means that 40x1.5=60 no?

That means that you use 50 percent more powder than I do for the same velocity. We are both right just looking at it from opposing ends of the calculation.

Guys velocity and cleaning isn’t the only reason to use bh209, the accuracy is very good. Velocity is subject to all relevant factors and are not a constant. 30fps gain is not consistent with what I have seen.

But who cares, as long as you are continuing the muzzleloader quest then it’s a win!

Triple 7 will work just fine as you guys point out. Use whatever the heck you like for that matter.

Budget is budget after all and if triple 7 fits have at it.