Well, I ordered a smoke pole.

[MikePal]

Funny thing is Jack.... I've actually gone backwards..the last two ML's I bought are using Goex FFG ..true 'Black' power, the dirtiest powder you can shot. It's not an issue with me, swab for shot consistency and then lovingly clean up afterwords.
A day on the range making smoke is what I find joy in and the more guys that join will only strengthen the sport.

[Big Jack]

Yup that is it Mike.

I try and convert any I can to the sport because it changes your way of shooting.

[Fox]

Your math = not so good. Lol but I get what you are getting at!

???

Ok, so go and work out the cost of a single shot of your smokeless, which is based on weight of the powder, 40gr.

Now, take the cost of a single shot of 777, a 100gr load by volume weighs approximately 75gr, an 80gr load by volume weighs in around 60gr.

Now, there are 7000gr in a lb, so at 60gr there are 116 loads to the pound and a 75gr load gives 93 loads of 777 and 175 loads of your smokeless.

1lb of 777 = $32 / 116 loads = $0.28 per shot
1lb of 777 = $32 / 93 = $0.35 per shot
1lb of smokeless = $36.50 / 175 loads = $0.21 per shot

So, each shot of your smokeless saves you 7 cents of 14 cents depending on the load

Now that I worked out the cost we can look at velocity, I will be looking at a 300gr bullet.

Smokeless (44gr) - 2218fps

777 FFg (100gr by volume) - 1814fps
777 FFg (90gr by volume) - 1779fps

777 FFFg (100gr by volume) - 1884fps
777 FFFg (90gr by volume) - 1829fps

I cannot see enough difference to justify an extra thousand plus to get into the sport, and blackhorn although it is cleaner does not really do all that much for velocity in a 26in barrel, from that numbers that are posted.

[Big Jack]

???

Ok, so go and work out the cost of a single shot of your smokeless, which is based on weight of the powder, 40gr.

Now, take the cost of a single shot of 777, a 100gr load by volume weighs approximately 75gr, an 80gr load by volume weighs in around 60gr.

Now, there are 7000gr in a lb, so at 60gr there are 116 loads to the pound and a 75gr load gives 93 loads of 777 and 175 loads of your smokeless.

1lb of 777 = $32 / 116 loads = $0.28 per shot
1lb of 777 = $32 / 93 = $0.35 per shot
1lb of smokeless = $36.50 / 175 loads = $0.21 per shot

So, each shot of your smokeless saves you 7 cents of 14 cents depending on the load

Now that I worked out the cost we can look at velocity, I will be looking at a 300gr bullet.

Smokeless (44gr) - 2218fps

777 FFg (100gr by volume) - 1814fps
777 FFg (90gr by volume) - 1779fps

777 FFFg (100gr by volume) - 1884fps
777 FFFg (90gr by volume) - 1829fps

I cannot see enough difference to justify an extra thousand plus to get into the sport, and blackhorn although it is cleaner does not really do all that much for velocity in a 26in barrel, from that numbers that are posted.

What part don’t you understand?

If I shoot 40 grains of powder and you shoot 60, your charge weight is fifty percent more than mine.

It’s simple math - I also told you that you were correct because you looked at it from the 60 Grain perspective saying 40 grains is 2/3 of your 60 grain load.

Both statements are true yet you argue with me that I am incorrect.

The velocity numbers you posted above don’t mean a thing in the real world. Buy a simple shooting chrony and you may be surprised at the discoveries you make.

Slamming smokeless is also unnecessary. If you don’t understand that 500 fps difference with a decent relative BC bullet means that your BP’s MV starts out where the smokeless bullet velocity is as it passes 200 yards, I really can’t help you.

Same type of comments from you time and time again. You have zero practical knowledge yet you feel well informed enough to argue with me over my practical experiences.

I told you straight up - your mileage will vary. That is an honest statement which you should pay head to. It’s not as simple as saying hey my 300 Grain bullet will go this fast because some chart told me so if I use X powder. It simply does not work that way.

I’ve had two identical guns shooting same loads of T7 but had big differences in velocity. I’ve had the same experience with smokeless rigs side by side(almost 300 fps) but hey what do I know.

I can only tell you that if the regs changed tomorrow and I could only shoot BP or subs, Bh209 would be my ticket.

I really do recommend buying a cheap F1 chrony. I used one for years and it really does help understand what YOUR GUN WILL DO!

[Fox]

What part don’t you understand?

If I shoot 40 grains of powder and you shoot 60, your charge weight is fifty percent more than mine.

It’s simple math - I also told you that you were correct because you looked at it from the 60 Grain perspective saying 40 grains is 2/3 of your 60 grain load.

Both statements are true yet you argue with me that I am incorrect.

The velocity numbers you posted above don’t mean a thing in the real world. Buy a simple shooting chrony and you may be surprised at the discoveries you make.

Slamming smokeless is also unnecessary. If you don’t understand that 500 fps difference with a decent relative BC bullet means that your BP’s MV starts out where the smokeless bullet velocity is as it passes 200 yards, I really can’t help you.

Same type of comments from you time and time again. You have zero practical knowledge yet you feel well informed enough to argue with me over my practical experiences.

I told you straight up - your mileage will vary. That is an honest statement which you should pay head to. It’s not as simple as saying hey my 300 Grain bullet will go this fast because some chart told me so if I use X powder. It simply does not work that way.

I’ve had two identical guns shooting same loads of T7 but had big differences in velocity. I’ve had the same experience with smokeless rigs side by side(almost 300 fps) but hey what do I know.

I can only tell you that if the regs changed tomorrow and I could only shoot BP or subs, Bh209 would be my ticket.

I really do recommend buying a cheap F1 chrony. I used one for years and it really does help understand what YOUR GUN WILL DO!

Thank you, I have a chronograph, does not work very well with black powder, from personal experience on a blackpowder rimfire project.

My math has to do with cost, I really do not care about the velocity to smokeless as the point is moot, I have not bought a $1000+ smokeless muzzle loader, I have purchased a decent entry level gun to get into the sport.

My math had nothing to do with power or the load weight, it has to do with cost, the cost of smokeless is slightly higher than 777 and the weight is slightly lower, so your savings on using less powder is moot, as my math shows.

Velocity in the real world matters at long range, nowhere did I say I would be hunting at long range, if I had the money I would be buying a 58 flint lock and shooting round balls only with a maximum range of 75 yards.

I never slammed smokeless, I said it was extremely cost prohibitive, 200 yards means nothing and with the same exact bullet the BC variation based on the 500fps difference is not all that significant.

I have zero practical knowledge? Do you shoot with me? Do you hunt with me? Exactly, I never bash your knowledge so back off on mine, you have no idea who I am or what I do so please keep your personal comments to yourself, I was posting about the rifle and you steered this well off course, nothing like trying to get into a sport and being bashed for a lack of practical knowledge.

I know how guns work, ballistics charts are guides, but the guides are relative and are something to compare to, to until I can actually get my hands on the gun and compare I really do not know, but neither do you.

I would not be using BH209, I enjoy shooting my guns and I could afford to shoot with BH209 is any real capacity so if that were my only option I would sell the muzzleloader, it would not be worth it for me. I have specifically looked into options to be able to shoot this gun on a regular basis with the use of cast lead bullet to reduce the cost, at over $1 for the powder and $1.50 for the bullet it is up there with sabot slugs, which I cannot shoot every weekend, $0.28 for the powder and $0.30 for the bullet I can justify the money to go out and shoot. I personally cannot dump $100 on an afternoon at the range, shooting does not have to be an expensive sport but it is really easy to make it expensive if you want to.

Enjoy your smokeless muzzleloader, I think the idea is great but it is very impractical for many shooters, including myself, so I will shoot what I can.

[Big Jack]

Fox I am glad you took up the sport.

After re-reading the posts I’ll apologize - it seemed to me that you were bashing smokeless but I may have got the wrong idea.

My first 10ml cost $528 out the door and that gun is still in our gang so it’s not necessarily going to cost a 1000. I saw a guy had one for sale in summer for $650 shipped with a pile of pills. Didn’t last 10 minutes but you see them time to time.

My comment about zero practical knowledge was specific to the ML adventure you just started.
Posted numbers are someone else’s experience not yours. I’m trying to tell you not to rely on them solely. See what your gun likes and go from there.

A good friend of mine shoots cast bullets in sabots with Jim Shockley Gold and he gets good results with his ML. That stuff is terrible in my experience but it works real well in one of his guns.

He also shoots triple 7 but in hunting season BH209 is used in his knight disc.

You can buy a bunch of stuff based on the price tag alone but what you will end up with may not work well with your gun.

My buddies and I approach shooting this way, if one guy wants to try a load or bullet combo be it CF or ML and another guy has the powder and pill we give each other a few to try with the powder and off they go. We have all gone down the road of buying this or that because it was supposed to work the best and only to find it did not work as advertised and on the shelf it sits. That’s money pissed away.

Don’t close your mind to 209 because of price. In the whole scheme of things a 70 dollar bottle of bh209, if it works better in YOUR GUN, could last several hunt seasons.

That same line of thinking also applies to all cost scales. For example this year I opted to hunt with a specialty bullet out of the US. It was pricey but had a good BC and worked well at range. Terminal performance was not ideal. Bullet went to pieces on impact. Yes the deer were DRT but I lost some meat that I shouldn’t have so back to the drawing board I go.

I’m done with this thread either way. I think you and I don’t see eye to eye on much so I’ll try to avoid your threads.

Regardless, congrats on your purchase!

[bellerivercrossbowhunter]

I have noticed the cost of M/L going way up just like everything else... lol

We have a buddy that will be joining our 92B M/L only Controlled hunt group. He was looking to spend $800.00+ tax for a new TC M/L. I found him an almost new Savage 10MLii on CGN for about the same price. I never thought I would see the day when a smokeless savage is the same price as a new inline black powder gun....

[Fox]

I have noticed the cost of M/L going way up just like everything else... lol

We have a buddy that will be joining our 92B M/L only Controlled hunt group. He was looking to spend $800.00+ tax for a new TC M/L. I found him an almost new Savage 10MLii on CGN for about the same price. I never thought I would see the day when a smokeless savage is the same price as a new inline black powder gun....

You choose to spend what you choose to spend, he would not have needed to spend $800 to get into the sport with a very viable muzzle loader but a savage smokeless for $800 is a really low price too.

[Fox]

Well, the whole thread is moot now, they cancelled my order and offered me a really sub-par replacement option at a significantly lower discount than what was on the pursuit, so now I am sitting on a bunch of useless cabelas gift cards.

[bellerivercrossbowhunter]

Well, the whole thread is moot now, they cancelled my order and offered me a really sub-par replacement option at a significantly lower discount than what was on the pursuit, so now I am sitting on a bunch of useless cabelas gift cards.

We can spend them for you! lol