Some chatter on new gun bill

[mosquito]

... and that Australia model .....

Take a look at the Australian stats....
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-2...tralia/6483762

The full report wasn't made public but key data was released by Jason Clare, then police and justice minister.

It found:

There were 2.75 million registered guns in Australia held by 730,000 licence holders
Conservatively estimated there were 250,000 long barrel guns and 10,000 handguns in the illegal firearms market
Guns in the illegal market stayed in circulation for decades - the oldest traced gun was a functioning revolver manufactured in 1888

Like the institute's study, the commission's report showed that theft was a greater source of illegal guns than those illegally imported, and by far the biggest source was guns not surrendered or registered in 1996.

They talk about the amnesty netting 50,000 .... but in the picture I see 5 air rifles (or more), two single shots including what looks like a Martini etc.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...llegal-weapons


A bit about handgun ownership in Australia
https://aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi361

Legal status of handguns used in homicide

The majority of firearms used to commit homicide in Australia since 1989-90 were held unlawfully at the time. Of the 150 offenders known to have used a handgun to commit homicide, 12 percent were licensed firearms owners and two percent had used a registered handgun. Considering all firearms (n=313),15 percent of offenders held a firearms licence and 11 percent of firearms used were registered.
Handguns used in armed robbery

Twenty-two percent of armed robberies in 2003 were committed with a firearm, while this was 13 percent each in 2004 and 2005. The use of handguns in armed robbery was 10 percent or less over the same period. However, similar to homicide, handguns were the predominant firearm used, with between half and almost two-thirds of firearm-perpetrated armed robberies involving a handgun.

If we can't stop cigarettes from being illegally shipped by the ton .... and Australia with no border countries still has an illegal issue .... it is pretty darn ridiculous to think a ban would have any effect in Toronto!


Then you throw in the 3-D printers....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJyf1IrHtcE

[LoR]

How many have been killed by illegal guns in 2018....the yearly average for the entire country, all guns including suicide is around 200.

https://globalnews.ca/news/3637148/f...s-canada-2017/
An average of 4 per day nationally.

Does Canada have a gun problem? Arguably yes, depending on the angle (spin) one decides to take.
Does Canada and Toronto have bigger problems? Absolutely yes...

What do they all have in common?
Illegal activity, gangs, drugs, and illicit money.........

What do they all have common?
Highly paid law enforcement agencies who won’t admit they clearly aren’t good enough. Crystal clear when those same people and their chiefs, and their masters, be they Goodale or Tory, whine about guns. Fine, do a better Fn job.....

Hopefully, for a change, gun advocates, others, this time turn the spotlight and focus on them, the underlying problem and their failings......and they in turn rue the day they kicked the lid off Pandora’s box.

[Gun Nut]

How many have been killed by illegal guns in 2018....the yearly average for the entire country, all guns including suicide is around 200.

https://globalnews.ca/news/3637148/f...s-canada-2017/
An average of 4 per day nationally.

Does Canada have a gun problem? Arguably yes, depending on the angle (spin) one decides to take.
Does Canada and Toronto have bigger problems? Absolutely yes...

What do they all have in common?
Illegal activity, gangs, drugs, and illicit money.........

What do they all have common?
Highly paid law enforcement agencies who won’t admit they clearly aren’t good enough. Crystal clear when those same people and their chiefs, and their masters, be they Goodale or Tory, whine about guns. Fine, do a better Fn job.....

Hopefully, for a change, gun advocates, others, this time turn the spotlight and focus on them, the underlying problem and their failings......and they in turn rue the day they kicked the lid off Pandora’s box.

You definitely have a point. I use to believe if you could eliminate the demand, you could eliminate drug trafficking. In other words it would be better to go after the users not the traffickers. You can understand my puzzlement, because clear traffickers by distributing the stronger opioids, are losing a fair bit of market share, through death by overdose. It does appear to be doing much in terms of affecting their bottom-line. That maybe why they are not particularly concern about the government getting into the marijuana business, if anything having legal marijuana readily available might very well lead to a further expansion of their market place. But hey, marijuana use doesn’t mean, there will be any likelihood that individuals will develop an interest in experimenting with the stronger opioids? Right! It is truly strange how the government has reversed its thinking on that idea.


You don’t stop hunting because grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

[welsh]

The first, obvious point here is that an election is a year off and much can change in that time. It is possible that all Toronto's requests to the federal government will come to nothing.

What dumb crook would try that knowing full well the paper trail would go straight back to him?

That would be either (a) a guy who was approached and told that if he didn't play along with the plan, bad things would happen to him, or (b) a guy who saw a chance to make and hide away a lot of money as a nest egg for when he got out of jail in a couple of years.

The most widely reported case involved a guy who moved 47 guns. That's a lot of money.

To me, if something like this happening multiple times wouldn't be a clear indication that the individual is in the business of trafficking. If the system can’t pick something like this up, its administration needs to be address and tighten up....

In fact, what apparently happened was that the administration was loosened up, which created the problem. Previously, there was a much lower threshold to raise a red flag on frequent purchases. This was loosened. You can expect it has been tightened again, months ago, but we will have to wait over a year to actually see what the results were.

If the claims can be substantiated (other than a one-of occurrence) ,then,that would be proof positive in glaring detail,that the premise of the entire gun registry system is a complete sham.

There have been over 40 cases, apparently. Since the registry was instrumental in providing the evidence to support the charges, it's hard to see that it was a complete sham. And with a change to the standard for raising a red flag on frequent buys, the straw buy route will become to risky for anyone to try to make money at it.

Brian
No, 50% of guns used in crime are not from Canada[/I]

What Lilley didn't tell you is that when Mark Saunders says 50%, he's not talking Canada-wide and he's not referring to that report from BC. He's referring to data gathered by TPS specifically about guns recovered in Toronto.

Lilley apparently didn't bother to get on the phone and call Saunders and ask the question, which is kind of Journalism 101.

I doubt if his ban would stick as it cannot be enforced it is legal to own a handgun if you have an RPAL....

Toronto is in fact asking for a ban on sales of handguns and "handgun ammunition" in the city (Joe Cressey's motion). At the same time, they are also asking for a ban on handguns, semi-auto rifles, and semi-auto shotguns nationwide (Kristyn Wong-Tam's motion). Either of these, if enacted, would easily stick. I don't expect either to actually happen, though: Cressey's motion would have no practical effect and Wong-Tam has even said to the media it would be symbolic, which is not going to pass muster if it is challenged. And Wong-Tam's would cost over $2 billion.

Actually telling the truth on most of the story... like the fact a city ban would be a bylaw....

The city ban could equally be based on provisions in the Criminal Code, so that anyone violating that by-law would be facing the full force of the criminal law. This would depend entirely on how the law was written. I don't have a crystal ball with which to predict the future, but it seems Ezra's and Brian's might be defective.

Finally:

It is pretty clear from the American experience that gun free zone don't work. If anything they act as a magnet that attracts violent behaviour.

There is no evidence for this. In fact, gun-free zones are made gun-free because they are public spaces. Mass public shootings, by definition, occur in public spaces. Funny how that would create a correlation.

[LoR]

Yet Mass shootings still occur in gun free zones, be they schools or clubs. By definition, not effective...and if we listen to cries south if the border, are they to, not on the rise.....
Jesus.........

How hard is it to think things through. Find the holes in arguements or weaknesses in logic? It’s not hard to think it through and see that, cities can enact by-laws no differently then they can set no discharge which include bows or not....Not hard. Equally just as easy to think a counter arguement through and see that um, banning guns in schools and making them gun free zones....

It’s not hard, when someone with clear bias points to Chicago as the epitome of gun control failure, to point out....Um how can you say it’s not working, when you don’t know how bad things would be if they weren’t so “strict” and it is working in Canada...... Nor is it hard to suggest anyone that points to Australia to look at a globe and understand something a grade schooler can figure out....

Unless one biased, close minded and unwilling to find what is right, rather than who is right.

To me it’s always been fairly simple. If we don’t find equitable, effective solutions, things will only get worse, until the day comes, when............

Bottom line.
The rise in this that that and the other including straw man purchases, which in itself is something if a straw man arguement....is on

Law enforcement. They aren’t doing

Their jobs

[LoR]

Couple other things that should raise red flags...

Any statistician that’s worth their degree knows that cherry picking a 4 year trend is a joke. Yet, that is exactly what some do when referencing both registry and Harper.

Including TPS. Go to their analytics portal and stats are 2014-present. Have to wonder why they are cherry picking...anti gun agenda? Don’t think so. More likely ( IMO) they don’t want the public asking questions about their failings and short comings

combating, drugs, gangs, organized crime.


2 minutes on Google, revealed that the 13 year gun death avg for TO is 34.....

The worst years being
2005
2007
2016
2017

All significantly higher than the average. Yet 2005-2007 by far, by far, not by a little but by a lot were the worst.

Yes it’s because Harper killed a couple things...lol

Fact.
The current 5 year average is
31.2 ( lower than the 13yr average) despite the screams, howls, spins by the left, and closed minded.

The 5 year average for 2005-2009 (registry years) was

39.4

20% higher than the 13 year average.

Lol. Yep the registry did so much...and it’s absence explains so much..



Personally not totally against it. Don’t mind the new goal of retailers having to record things..

But please.

And the simple fact of the matter is that, it does nothing to combat the problem. But rather a symptom.

Same or same old

[Gun Nut]

The first, obvious point here is that an election is a year off and much can change in that time. It is possible that all Toronto's requests to the federal government will come to nothing.



That would be either (a) a guy who was approached and told that if he didn't play along with the plan, bad things would happen to him, or (b) a guy who saw a chance to make and hide away a lot of money as a nest egg for when he got out of jail in a couple of years.

The most widely reported case involved a guy who moved 47 guns. That's a lot of money.



In fact, what apparently happened was that the administration was loosened up, which created the problem. Previously, there was a much lower threshold to raise a red flag on frequent purchases. This was loosened. You can expect it has been tightened again, months ago, but we will have to wait over a year to actually see what the results were.



There have been over 40 cases, apparently. Since the registry was instrumental in providing the evidence to support the charges, it's hard to see that it was a complete sham. And with a change to the standard for raising a red flag on frequent buys, the straw buy route will become to risky for anyone to try to make money at it.



What Lilley didn't tell you is that when Mark Saunders says 50%, he's not talking Canada-wide and he's not referring to that report from BC. He's referring to data gathered by TPS specifically about guns recovered in Toronto.

Lilley apparently didn't bother to get on the phone and call Saunders and ask the question, which is kind of Journalism 101.



Toronto is in fact asking for a ban on sales of handguns and "handgun ammunition" in the city (Joe Cressey's motion). At the same time, they are also asking for a ban on handguns, semi-auto rifles, and semi-auto shotguns nationwide (Kristyn Wong-Tam's motion). Either of these, if enacted, would easily stick. I don't expect either to actually happen, though: Cressey's motion would have no practical effect and Wong-Tam has even said to the media it would be symbolic, which is not going to pass muster if it is challenged. And Wong-Tam's would cost over $2 billion.



The city ban could equally be based on provisions in the Criminal Code, so that anyone violating that by-law would be facing the full force of the criminal law. This would depend entirely on how the law was written. I don't have a crystal ball with which to predict the future, but it seems Ezra's and Brian's might be defective.

Finally:



There is no evidence for this. In fact, gun-free zones are made gun-free because they are public spaces. Mass public shootings, by definition, occur in public spaces. Funny how that would create a correlation.

[COLOR=#000000]Finally:

[COLOR=#000000]
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
It is pretty clear from the American experience that gun free zone don't work. If anything they act as a magnet that attracts violent behaviour.



[COLOR=#000000]There is no evidence for this. In fact, gun-free zones are made gun-free because they are public spaces. Mass public shootings, by definition, occur in public spaces. Funny how that would create a correlation.

The point I was attempting to make is that gun-free zone, are areas of choice for gun violence, because they reduce the likelihood of any one shooting back. These gun-free zone as you point out are generally in the public arena. However, by attempting to make a whole city a gun-free zone, it seems to me, that it would be a movement beyond the public arena, into the sanctity of private space. Leaving home owners to the mercy of home invaders.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

[Gilroy]

Couple other things that should raise red flags...

Any statistician that’s worth their degree knows that cherry picking a 4 year trend is a joke. Yet, that is exactly what some do when referencing both registry and Harper.

Including TPS. Go to their analytics portal and stats are 2014-present. Have to wonder why they are cherry picking...anti gun agenda? Don’t think so. More likely ( IMO) they don’t want the public asking questions about their failings and short comings

combating, drugs, gangs, organized crime.


2 minutes on Google, revealed that the 13 year gun death avg for TO is 34.....

The worst years being
2005
2007
2016
2017

All significantly higher than the average. Yet 2005-2007 by far, by far, not by a little but by a lot were the worst.

Yes it’s because Harper killed a couple things...lol

Fact.
The current 5 year average is
31.2 ( lower than the 13yr average) despite the screams, howls, spins by the left, and closed minded.

The 5 year average for 2005-2009 (registry years) was

39.4

20% higher than the 13 year average.

Lol. Yep the registry did so much...and it’s absence explains so much..



Personally not totally against it. Don’t mind the new goal of retailers having to record things..

But please.

And the simple fact of the matter is that, it does nothing to combat the problem. But rather a symptom.

Same or same old

I have to agree with you that the Police officers today are just not getting the job done,but the environment they are working in is so much changed from years ago.
What LEO did years ago to enforce the law would probably get them in trouble really fast today,they know this so the simple solution is simply to back off.

But that has also not changed years ago plenty of officers were not pro active and kept their noses clean and there were other officers who did get down and dirty with the criminals and they got the complaints and flack.

The biggest mistake was taking officers out of Community Housing Projects who walked the beat and knew everybody AND were in those projects for years.I was in Regent Park, Moss Park and St Jamestown for 15 years.I can tell you that local criminals even although they had access to guns (much less) did not dare carry one on them on a regular basis.The reason why is that they did not know when they might get arrested.

There are no officers these days walking and working in uniform and old clothes for 15 year stints in one area.When you become part of the neighborhood, you are actually in the hood more than home if you are anything of an officer you will get to know every criminal on your beat,plain and simple.Their names,street handles,baby mothers addresses,parents addresses,cars,rank in the gang and so forth.

Identifying criminals is really simple easy even if your a rookie out of college.Criminals are the one,s who get up at 1pm after another night of partying,they drive flash cars,wear flash clothing and have money without having a real job.They have to sell their wares generally on the street so will be seen.Your not going to see them in uniform,unless you get into a vacant unit with a pair of binoculars and look down on where they are dealing.

Once you have pinched them for traffficking,selling to an undercover,or a choke arrest, your in business.Terms of release (yeh they will get released) NOT TO BE IN REGENT PARK, curfew, .... Now the fun part starts, you get to pinch them again for breaching their bail because they will do that almost right away.

Your portfolio of criminals is run through CPIC every quite Sunday morning,guess what up pops more arrest warrants from other divisions where they have been active,occurrences where they are named suspects,driving suspensions.....Your back on the street now hunting them down.

What do you need to hunt them down, well you better be able to run and FAST,you better know the area as well as they do and you have to have no fear.You should have no fear in arresting them as you have a warrant for their arrest.Generally this represents some more charges as they are probably carrying a weapon and or drugs.
Back to bail court another release and the fun starts over again.Hunting them down day after day,week after week,year after year.Chipping away.

That is until they get shot by one of their associates,but that,s ok there are lots to replace them.

If your an officer and don,t know your local criminals, don,t have informants, you cannot play this game.But if you do you are actually much safer on the street because they respect you and basically have to kill you to stop your efforts.A rookie officer that know,s nobody is much more likely to get killed than a grizzly old vet that knows everybody as long as that vet does not get complacent.

Right now Toronto Police officers are marking time, they cannot even card anybody and are under constant watch by the media and special interest groups.

What the public must realize is that Police officers can respond to calls after the violence and take reports and be safe Or they can be pro active and stop that violence in the first place.But they will not be pro active because they are not getting the support from Politicians,the Courts or the media.This is not a new phenomena its been ongoing for over 35 years, only now are the public seeing the crack cocaine addicts,gang shootings,spilling over into their other neighborhoods.

[rick_iles]

I have to agree with you that the Police officers today are just not getting the job done,but the environment they are working in is so much changed from years ago.
What LEO did years ago to enforce the law would probably get them in trouble really fast today,they know this so the simple solution is simply to back off.

But that has also not changed years ago plenty of officers were not pro active and kept their noses clean and there were other officers who did get down and dirty with the criminals and they got the complaints and flack.

The biggest mistake was taking officers out of Community Housing Projects who walked the beat and knew everybody AND were in those projects for years.I was in Regent Park, Moss Park and St Jamestown for 15 years.I can tell you that local criminals even although they had access to guns (much less) did not dare carry one on them on a regular basis.The reason why is that they did not know when they might get arrested.

There are no officers these days walking and working in uniform and old clothes for 15 year stints in one area.When you become part of the neighborhood, you are actually in the hood more than home if you are anything of an officer you will get to know every criminal on your beat,plain and simple.Their names,street handles,baby mothers addresses,parents addresses,cars,rank in the gang and so forth.

Identifying criminals is really simple easy even if your a rookie out of college.Criminals are the one,s who get up at 1pm after another night of partying,they drive flash cars,wear flash clothing and have money without having a real job.They have to sell their wares generally on the street so will be seen.Your not going to see them in uniform,unless you get into a vacant unit with a pair of binoculars and look down on where they are dealing.

Once you have pinched them for traffficking,selling to an undercover,or a choke arrest, your in business.Terms of release (yeh they will get released) NOT TO BE IN REGENT PARK, curfew, .... Now the fun part starts, you get to pinch them again for breaching their bail because they will do that almost right away.

Your portfolio of criminals is run through CPIC every quite Sunday morning,guess what up pops more arrest warrants from other divisions where they have been active,occurrences where they are named suspects,driving suspensions.....Your back on the street now hunting them down.

What do you need to hunt them down, well you better be able to run and FAST,you better know the area as well as they do and you have to have no fear.You should have no fear in arresting them as you have a warrant for their arrest.Generally this represents some more charges as they are probably carrying a weapon and or drugs.
Back to bail court another release and the fun starts over again.Hunting them down day after day,week after week,year after year.Chipping away.

That is until they get shot by one of their associates,but that,s ok there are lots to replace them.

If your an officer and don,t know your local criminals, don,t have informants, you cannot play this game.But if you do you are actually much safer on the street because they respect you and basically have to kill you to stop your efforts.A rookie officer that know,s nobody is much more likely to get killed than a grizzly old vet that knows everybody as long as that vet does not get complacent.

Right now Toronto Police officers are marking time, they cannot even card anybody and are under constant watch by the media and special interest groups.

What the public must realize is that Police officers can respond to calls after the violence and take reports and be safe Or they can be pro active and stop that violence in the first place.But they will not be pro active because they are not getting the support from Politicians,the Courts or the media.This is not a new phenomena its been ongoing for over 35 years, only now are the public seeing the crack cocaine addicts,gang shootings,spilling over into their other neighborhoods.

I agree....but it’s not just a Toronto thing. Your last paragraph describes de-policing. It’s showing up across the country. Due to all the government rules and regulations, there is virtually no pro-active policing today. What you described as part of your duties in the Projects, is now illegal.....go figure ! The criminals know this and take advantage.

Manpower cuts, government policies being handed down to the police, social work, etc, etc, leaves little room or time for pro-active initiatives.
Society’s responsibilities have increasingly been handed down to the police, because they are the only social program thats open and available 24-7. In our local service, there are no fewer than 10 frontline officers that have been diverted to other non-policing duties, likely more now. In TO, I’d imagine the numbers are in the hundreds.
Just the “carding” issue alone has reduced police interactions with the criminal element. If an officer sees someone in your neighbourhood in the wee hours of the morning carrying a TV, he/she can’t even question the individual without telling him/her that they do not have to talk to the police, and here’s how to make a complaint if they are questioned!!!
The police have been handcuffed continually. What you see now is de-policing.
To blame LEO is totally wrong. There is absolutely no support for LEO out there now. No wonder they use the FIDO principal. Police chiefs across the province voiced concerns about curtailing carding, TAVIS, and all other pro-active measures....at least those with stones big enough to disagree with the government. Most predicted the uptick in crime and violence we are seeing today!

[LoR]

“Yep”

But rather than ask the hard questions, (any old school cop will say the turning point was about 20 years), cast a less than favourable light on themselves, failing measures, horrific allocation of resources, “what ever”.

Smoke screens, distractions (straw men) etc etc. Calls for more regulations, more gC, more of anything

But hard, honest, examinations of policing “today” and what it will take to make a difference, and curb the rise they all scream about. But won’t do anything about.