explain to me why ohep cost 300 bucks?

Can someone explain to me why the cost is 300 bucks.. I just read on the ood site that the hunting course cost around 300 bucks I know this includes the firearms course but are we really kidding ourselves . I think that 300 bucks is a little excessive seeing its only a 20 hour course if you have 15 kids/adults that's 4500 bucks less about a grand for the books and course fees. and most places cost the same amount, this boarders almost on collusion (price fixing) . at this cost no wonder hunting is dyeing 300 bucks for hunter ed 50 for pal plus 10 for picture . This system is flawed and needs to be fixed .

Seems expensive!... Wonder if there is someone qualified doing it any cheaper to just help the sport with new hunters?

if you read the ood mag when you sign in it is in the article that is about 12 things a hunter should know.

The course costs depend to a certain extent on where the instructor teaches from e.g., what does it cost to rent a facility to use for a course. (We charge $240 for both H Ed & PAL). Rents in urban areas probably are higher than more rural areas.
Then, you have to understand that an instructor receives NOTHING for free to teach these courses:
- We have to buy the books & exams
- we have to pay 3 liability insurance fees to teach the 3 courses each year
- We have to buy all the equipment we use to teach with (e.g., laptop computer & projector. We had to replace our old projector a year ago - cheapest I could find was over $350)
- All the guns we use in these courses we have to provide, and they have to be disabled before we can use them. And with the beating that the guns take in these courses, we have to replace them on a regular basis. Have you checked out gun prices lately? The last 2 I had to buy cost me $625 used. We need to replace some others soon!
- We are continually replacing dummy ammunition as it gets beaten up with the constant cycling through the actions by students. Even by making our own, we still need to buy bullets & brass, drill 3 holes in each shell, and paint bullets & primer holes blue.
Then somewhere in there we need to pay for our expenses also - food, gas, etc. By the end of each course I've put 450 Km on my vehicle.
You're lucky the course fees aren't any higher than they are!

Everything goes up in price I guess.. I think I payed 60 bucks 25 years ago!... But the instructor didn't have any real overhead... Taught it in his basement in bowmanville ... Mr neilson if I remember correct...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mark270wsm

at this cost no wonder hunting is dyeing 300 bucks for hunter ed 50 for pal plus 10 for picture.

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It's far from dying...every course here is run to full capacity with waiting lists....so the market seems to bear the $300 fee.

I took my course and exam ( a one evening deal) in my game warden's basement by myself. Just him and me. I am sure he did it because he loved the outdoors and helping others get involved. No cost. I was 15 and life was simpler then. Geeze I have to get out of the way-back machine.

so if I am a out of province hunter I can challenge the exam for 40 dollars I can also challenge the fire arms course for 40 dollars. i see most hunter safety courses in the usa are reasonably cheap. so if your a non resident you can come to Ontario and start hunting for about 100 bucks... something is so wrong with that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mark270wsm

so if I am a out of province hunter I can challenge the exam for 40 dollars I can also challenge the fire arms course for 40 dollars. i see most hunter safety courses in the usa are reasonably cheap. so if your a non resident you can come to Ontario and start hunting for about 100 bucks... something is so wrong with that.

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Thats assuming you have a hunting license from a recognized place. Theres nothing wrong with it.

where would i find the list of places that are recognized

eems cheap, you have it for life... If a person is interested in hunting they are going to do it.

yes it seems cheap till you look at other provinces .. anywhere fro 29bucks to 55 bucks for hunter education . then when you look at Ontario we are getting hosed

Did ya not see genec post... We are lucky that we only pay 300. With all the gear they need to run that course ... Pretty sure they claim every dime they spend at tax time... Ruining guns?... In the classroom? What could they possibly be doing to them? ...

the hunting instructors got some free guns some years ago. and there was a deal on the horizon for free crossbows don't know if that came through.. I am sure any Canadian firearms companies would love to give free stuff as if you have your hands on it from day one I am sure they will buy one. I think its about time that it goes the same way some of the other provinces do it and a lot of the usa . I think the monopoly of gun safety become a free market enterprise. I just cant see why most charge the same price as the rest sounds like price fixing to me ..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mark270wsm

the hunting instructors got some free guns some years ago....

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So you're calling genec a liar, then?

NO, he may not have been a instructor then. I know they got guns on a first come first sever basis . I never call people liars, some people may not be aware of all circumstances .

A number of years back Sudbury district gave HST instructors free firearms from their cache of seized weapons. Most were junkers at best but still good enough to teach with.
Most of the instructors either rented classrooms at a dirt cheap rate or used local clubhouses.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by genec

The course costs depend to a certain extent on where the instructor teaches from e.g., what does it cost to rent a facility to use for a course. (We charge $240 for both H Ed & PAL). Rents in urban areas probably are higher than more rural areas.
Then, you have to understand that an instructor receives NOTHING for free to teach these courses:
- We have to buy the books & exams
- we have to pay 3 liability insurance fees to teach the 3 courses each year
- We have to buy all the equipment we use to teach with (e.g., laptop computer & projector. We had to replace our old projector a year ago - cheapest I could find was over $350)
- All the guns we use in these courses we have to provide, and they have to be disabled before we can use them. And with the beating that the guns take in these courses, we have to replace them on a regular basis. Have you checked out gun prices lately? The last 2 I had to buy cost me $625 used. We need to replace some others soon!
- We are continually replacing dummy ammunition as it gets beaten up with the constant cycling through the actions by students. Even by making our own, we still need to buy bullets & brass, drill 3 holes in each shell, and paint bullets & primer holes blue.
Then somewhere in there we need to pay for our expenses also - food, gas, etc. By the end of each course I've put 450 Km on my vehicle.
You're lucky the course fees aren't any higher than they are!

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$300/20hrs = If intrstructors we're getting paid.

A lot of these do nothing for you they are simply for CE and PD credits. Not licensing, many of them are north of $1,000. All of them are online, or self study aka you get text books and that it
https://www.csi.ca/student/en_ca/courses/index.xhtml

There are few in there I am forced to take every other year, (Ive done Anti Teorrist/Money laundering at least 6 times now) I don't even bother reading the material anymore, I just log in, write the exam, score anywhere from 95 to 100%. and it takes all of about 20 minutes. It cost $80, each time and is good for 3 of the mandatory 12 CE credits. Currently working my way through one PD (Illl get 6 of my mandatory 30 PD credits for this cycle)..It cost $500

Drivers license cost? How often do we pay to renew?
HVAC liscensing?
Gas fitting?
So many, many more. Our hunter and Pal licences, relative to virtually all others….. while it may seem expensive. $150 per coarse is dirt cheap.

$300 for a PAL/OHEP course is well worth it in my view. Consider the costs of getting into hunting i.e. firearm, ammo, boots, clothing plus the cost of a hunting trip i.e. gas, food, time off work, etc. If you think about it, because the training lasts you forever it's probably the cheapest thing (whereas equipment needs replacing).

With this in mind, the training one receives should be the most important consideration before someone is able to purchase a firearm and harvest an animal. Plus, a good instructor such as the one I had (Bill McKittrick if I remember correctly) not only taught about firearm safety and hunting in Ontario but also shared his wealth of experience and to me that alone was worth the fee.

Now I can see why the liberals still get voted in . if your willing to say awe its still pretty cheap considering this or that ... guys open your eyes and see what is going on here we are getting hosed maybe more people hunting would make for a better province and more enforcement . and don't give me the garbage of online course don't work. I can still remember these words, "people we are about to learn about the most dangourse hunting sport, turkey hunting " ,now it is done on a cd for the same cost as it was when it was done through instructors ...

JBEN can you tell me what you meant by

300/20hrs = IF the instructors are paid ?

Check out Shooter's Choice in Waterloo. Click on Colby Shooting Club scroll down to Course/Applications they tell in detail the costs and what is taught. You can decide what courses you need. Good Luck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mark270wsm

the hunting instructors got some free guns some years ago. and there was a deal on the horizon for free crossbows don't know if that came through.. I am sure any Canadian firearms companies would love to give free stuff as if you have your hands on it from day one I am sure they will buy one...

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I've been doing Hunter Ed in Niagara since 1972 and we NEVER got any free guns from any government source ever.

And as for Canadian firearms companies giving free stuff - I'd love to see it! (also, WHAT Canadian companies - the last one left is Savage in Lakefield that I know of). Savage does give instructors a slight discount on their .22 rifles, but I quit using .22s for classroom instruction years ago: they don't stand up to continual student handling in the courses, and they EAT dummy ammo constantly.

Maybe the people who think the courses should be cheaper could step up, get accredited as instructors and offer cheap courses. We'll see how long they last!!

Many years ago I did take and pass the instructors exam just on a lark. Still don't see why all of this money must be spent on fancy visual aids in order to TEACH. Our high school students get the course as past of their Northern Studies Course, at no added cost! Our local outdoors club provides a spot to teach the course as well.
Its about covering necessary expenses and promoting the sport, not making a huge profit.
What kind of students are we turning out if they are DESTROYING guns in a few years of course use?

Red foxx they are set prices can not offer free or discounted prices for people . at least that is what I have been informed . and the ofah about 6 years ago gave away shotguns and other firearms free to first come first serve. the course is done online in a lot of provinces and a lot of U S states. it has become a money grab.

If it is true that other provinces can do this on- line then why not here in ontario?.. Do we have less hunting accidents because of the 20 hr course than other provinces?.. You got me wondering?

Never heard of that. I know NS, NB, PEI, NFLD don't offer online courses. Pretty sure Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Alberta don't either maybe BC but not that I heard of.

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Originally Posted by grizzlygreig

If it is true that other provinces can do this on- line then why not here in ontario?.. Do we have less hunting accidents because of the 20 hr course than other provinces?.. You got me wondering?

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Mark. If the instructors were getting paid, they would be getting $15/Hr (300/20) assuming, they pocketed the full $300. Sound fair? I mean what the hourly rate for a driving instructor?

Patvetzel. How much money might you guess does it cost to promote hunting?

Just me but anytime I look at something, be it this or other, I weigh the relative cost of other things that are similar. Some might be cheaper, some might be more expensive. It's a license so what other licenses are there, what do they cost to acquire, how often do you have to renew and are there any other hidden cost to maintain that license.

What does it cost to get certified to Scuba?
Driving?
So many many more. Most being more expensive, some of those considerably more expensive. So relative to other liscences aka certifications a person might want to acquire, to earn money or just because they enjoy it (recreation) or want to learn it..It's cheap.

Don't believe me? Get certified to fly an aircraft, take the Canadian Securities coarse (just the introductory coarse) or get licensed to do gas fitting, or hvac, or more than I can think of :)

/ps I think it cost more than 15/hr (about what we pay) to take guitar lessons, if you want to learn to play

Jben I think mark wants to know if a hunting course costs this much in another province then why so much here in ontario?... Same license... Not another type of license but the same one...?

i am pretty sure that there is more than one student in the course at a time... Lets say 20?... At 15.00 an hr?... 300. An hr...

Sorry GW...

http://www.huntercourse.com/canada/manitoba/

http://www.huntercourse.com/canada/saskatchewan/

edit....if you go to this link you can see which provinces allow it:
http://www.huntercourse.com/canada/

Note: you do have to pay addition fees ($20) for the Instructor/test portion.

6000. Bucks to teach 20 hrs to 20 people... Pretty good BUISNESS I would say !!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JBen

Just me but anytime I look at something, be it this or other, I weigh the relative cost of other things that are similar. Some might be cheaper, some might be more expensive.

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I do the same thing..as long as guys are willing to drop $200+ for 2-3 hrs of entertainment (frustration if your a Leafs Fan) to watch a hockey game, then everything else is relative :)

I'd rather spend the 2-3 hrs in my treestand..prorated to the initial costs for hunting, I think I've widdled it down to $0.25 per hunt :)

Grizzly I'm not suggesting that's not a fair comparison either. Whether its X or Y there are usually more than one way to skin a cat (look at something, factor in many things).

Is it "cheap", could it be cheaper? I certainly don't have 300 bucks burning a hole in my pocket atm.
So one can look at what it cost in other locations, one can look at what other such things here, and some other factors.

Would anyone say $15,000 for a sedan is cheap? No, but a Hyundai is cheap realtive to many others. Both get you from point A to point B.

Is a $500 shotgun cheap?
No

How is that relative to many other shotguns...All shoot birds. etc.

Cheers

great white do a google search for hunting courses online in Canada the very same provinces you mention are doing online courses. I would like to hear from the ohep teachers, are you told what to charge .

One round of golf Mike can easily surpass the 150 for the Hunters Ed.
I took the family to go see a movie (the Conjuring) last week. Set me and the GF back $80, for 2 hours entertainment. $150 for the Hunters ed gets me a lifetime of the same and sanity (my happy place)

There are so many ways to skin this cat.
I have no idea, but does anyone know off hand what it cost to be a certified diver?

mark270wsm,

There are numerous factors why the course could be so expensive. There have been numerous examples given to you about insurance, etc for overhead costs. Classrooms cost money to rent as well. I would imagine in southern Ontario, it is much harder to find a place to teach a course due to the public's stigmatism attacted to firearms. When I took my hunter's ed course the first time (I took it again when I took my PAL course for a refresher), it was held at Sir Sandford Fleming College in Peterborough and I took the exam at a high school (I can't remember which one). I would imagine today that doesn't happen.

Hunting is an expensive endeavour. If some people are balking at a $300 initial cost, perhaps hunting isn't the correct pasttime for them.

Dyth

Ontario I think is saying that our criteria may be higher than that in other jurisdictions. (I'm not saying that is right but what it appears to be). If a person moves from out of Ontario & wants to get a resident hunting license in Ontario they must pass the Ontario test or take the course. If they pass the test...they meet the Ontario standard. If not ....they don't.

I think it is good that students of the course take it in person and have hands on handling by trained instructors. I know that the people who first taught me how to handle guns (prior to the course) were not very safe and law abiding people. I learned more from the course instructors than I did from my initial mentors.

I think if we compare the learning experience to that of the boating course (generally) the hunting course has way more valuable hands on experience which is the way it should be. For that....it costs $$ and I think, as said above....when you figure out what an instructor makes and hour putting on the course plus his/her overhead...it's not a bad deal

Jben ... If someone asks you if you have seen the movie the answer would be yes....not how much you payed for it... If you have a hunting license the answer would be the same no matter where you got it.... As far as being a certified diver I would hope that there would be the OPTION of prices to achieve that goal...hunting here or another province or basically anywhere in Canada is realistically the same in my eyes..You could have golfed cheaper somewhere else jben .... It'd is Was A CHOICE you made... Point being there isn't any other choice for people here to get there license.... They have new hunters cornered with out any options available for them to decide what's right ....all I am saying is it would be nice to have an option to take the course on line or go to a instructor... Not be forced to go to the instructor...
Did you have an option wich course to golf?....

Redd.... 20 students a week end.... 6000. Dollars... Once a month lets say... 72000.. I think that they make good money...

I stand corrected, I believe that is relatively new. Because a relative of mine took the course about 5 years ago in NS. I should have checked my fact before speaking sorry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Sorry GW...

http://www.huntercourse.com/canada/manitoba/

http://www.huntercourse.com/canada/saskatchewan/

edit....if you go to this link you can see which provinces allow it:
http://www.huntercourse.com/canada/

Note: you do have to pay addition fees ($20) for the Instructor/test portion.

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You need to subtract approx 150.00 for the materials per student. Also rental cost for where they are teaching the course. I would say at best they make approx 100.00 per student. 2000.00 for 20 hrs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grizzlygreig

Redd.... 20 students a week end.... 6000. Dollars... Once a month lets say... 72000.. I think that they make good money...

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Ok... Still not bad money!... But not having a option to choose here is what I am getting at... And dyth it is not just a rich mans sport... It's a individuals choice what he spends to be in the out doors.... IMO... No offence to ya boys!...
not looking for a pissing match....lol

The comparison there Grizzly is relative value, whether it's golfing or going to the movies, or a hockey game.
True different coarses charge different amounts. Back when I golfed (quite a lot) I wanted two things from any coarse. Greens and T boxes in good shape, not ok shape, good shape. That means maintenance and that means cost. "Better" coarses, cost more to play at. Maybe Im finicky about how T times aka time to play 18. Some coarse push foursome through every 4 minutes, some 8minutes. It will cost me more to play a coarse that doesn't push as many golfers through in a day, but some public coarses you can get stuck behind slow players for hours. That to cost.

Regardless whether I paid 40,80 or 120 for a round. 6 hours of entertainment. In a year I might get out 30 times. If the average cost is 60, that $1800 bucks. Once I pay the $60, $80 or $150 for my Hunters ed..................

The law says we must be certified, the same law applies to driving, and many other things. We must demonstrate a certain level of profiecency before we are allowed to play. Relative to those (many/most of them) its "cheap"
http://www.scuba2000.com/index.php/t...n-to-dive.html

That said, comparing the cost here, to the cost elsewhere is also a fair comparison.
All of the above, are simply different ways to skin the same cat

As somebody mentioned, it's only a one time cost. I wouldn't complain about the cost of the course, as long as the quality of training is good. I had good instruction when I took mine years ago and my son recently had a real good instructor as well...

However, a few years ago, I needed to take a Bow Hunter education course, (which is only offered a few places in Ontario) in order to be allowed to do a bow hunt in New Brunswick. I was very disappointed with the course.... 2 day course ( about $300), plus hotel room and meals, because it was far from home...... and I kid you not, 50% of the time was wasted, with chit-chat and listening to everyone's hunting stories, etc. This same outfit does the firearms, hunting and restricted courses as well. I hope the level of training is better at these courses, with "new" hunters and shooters.

And on a second note:, One of the reasons that the course fees are maybe maintaining a pretty high cost, is that there is little or no competition. I inquired about being certified as an instructor a couple years back. I have some significant "Train the Trainer" education through my work and have a good deal of experience training and educating in a group setting. I would love to do the OHEP and Firearms courses, as a bit of a side-line... in a subject matter that I'm keenly interested in.... but I was told that they only certify instructors in geographical areas where they feel they are needed... so with a couple different instructors near my home, I'm SOL.... A little more competition in the industry might drive the costs down a bit.

Any questions about the Ontario Hunter Education Program (www.ohep.net) may be directed to [email protected] or by calling (705) 748-5785

Dythbringer are you kidding me. the cost is not the issue here the problem is it is a set price and as we have heard there is no competition . Like I said it is not the money we in Ontario are not only getting bled dry by our government we are also getting bled dry by our hunter safety course . I urge you to check these websites out and the cost and tell me if you think it is right for us to be charged this much

http://www.atlantichuntered.ca/nb/HunterEducation.htm

LESS THAN A HUNDRED DOLLARS FOR BOTH PAL AND HUNTERS COURSE.. AND WE PAY 300 I THINK A PHONE CALL TO MY MPP IS IN ORDER

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Originally Posted by mark270wsm

I urge you to check these websites out and the cost and tell me if you think it is right for us to be charged this much

http://www.atlantichuntered.ca/nb/HunterEducation.htm

LESS THAN A HUNDRED DOLLARS FOR BOTH PAL AND HUNTERS COURSE.. AND WE PAY 300 I THINK A PHONE CALL TO MY MPP IS IN ORDER

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Mark, you need to READ your web post carefully!
You're ranting about the Ontario costs where individual instructors have to provide all their own course materials VS a New Brunswick course TAUGHT BY A DEPT. OF NATURAL RESOURCES STAFF MEMBER!
In other words, the N.B. GOVERNMENT provides the materials for the course (and paid for by taxes) - Certainly when the gov't pays for everything they can do it as cheaply as they want because they recoup the costs from taxation!

are iindividual instructors able to right off things like hotels, gas, and other things like class rooms to teach in as kinda like a small Business?... Wonder if the ontario government would be able to do the same thing that the New Brunswick government does and have our MNR do the course here for the same cash as N.B.?... We pay way more taxes then they do there ... Don't know for sure about the taxes but we pay our fair share for sure!!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mark270wsm

Dythbringer are you kidding me. the cost is not the issue here the problem is it is a set price and as we have heard there is no competition . Like I said it is not the money we in Ontario are not only getting bled dry by our government we are also getting bled dry by our hunter safety course . I urge you to check these websites out and the cost and tell me if you think it is right for us to be charged this much

http://www.atlantichuntered.ca/nb/HunterEducation.htm

LESS THAN A HUNDRED DOLLARS FOR BOTH PAL AND HUNTERS COURSE.. AND WE PAY 300 I THINK A PHONE CALL TO MY MPP IS IN ORDER

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Seriously what is your problem ??? This thread has been nothing but you bashing the ohep program. Now a question to you have you taking the courses and failed and this is the reason for you ing about it ? If not and you took the course and passed that don't worry about it. If you haven't take the course and want to challenge it then do it and when you fail you'll be on here ing because the "took" you $80 or $90 and wouldn't let you pass. If you want to go take your course in another province or country do it. But remember you better have lived there for over 6 months before they let you. There not going to let you take it just because you want to, especially if your doing to cheat in another province. It's a one time thing, once you've passed your done with. I paid it and it never bothered me one bit. I don't see OHEP instructors living in million homes,driving $60,000+ vehicles, and throwing $100 bills around. Seriously give it rest and move on with it. No one on here cares about your hate for the OHEP program cost. This thread really needs to be shut down.

its done online there is no course material . I just think there is a need for change, or free enterprise with out some one saying what to charge .I like how you call it ranting when all i am doing is bringing to light that we are getting hosed for a sport we like and it is time for us to take back our sport it may hurt some toes but oh well . so far in this thread i think most can agree to a point that there may be some price fixing , not being allowed to take course because of others the area, its a set price which i am no laywer but it sounds like price fixing to me (Price fixing is an agreement between participants on the same side in a market to buy or sell a product, service, or commodity only at a fixed price, or maintain the market conditions such that the price is maintained at a given level by controlling supply and demand )

big jake 1907 i bet you voted liberal as well.... I have passed my hunter safety course years ago. If you think I am bashing the ohep I may be, but I think i am trying to make it better and more cost effective for OTHERS Who cant afford to hunt and would like to . Why should someone benefit from something that is mandated and price fixed in my opinion . As far as move on No one care about my hate for the ohep program cost.. i have had a lot of visitors and pm sent to me not realizing the cost in other jurisdiction and are now informed people wondering why the cost is so high. so i have done my part and am waiting for my return call from my MPP to look into why the cost is so high . why shut down a thread that is bringing knowledge to the cost of hunting .

Someone has already mentioned "skinning the customer....er cat" rather. Anytime that someone bases the cost on how much the customer will pay, instead of how much is their legitimate overhead, I always think that it is either being run by a politician or a company with NO competition, like Ontario Hydro.

I did not choose to hunt because it was cheaper than bowling or golf but because it was MY choice of where, when, and how to hunt. I would hope that my kids would also have a choice which hunters course to take, taught by an instructor of THEIR choice at a price they can afford. Not a price that makes it equal with golf or scuba diving.....

It used to be that some instructors had a good reputation, others were guys who knew their stuff, but couldn't teach a frog to swim. Some always had full courses because they kept the price down and still did a great job. Others had full courses because they were the only game in the area...and didn't give a dam....:scream:

I wish I could remember what it cost for courses more than 20 years ago...

I don't have a problem with the cost of the course, after all, you have the alternative of challenging the course.

What I do have a problem with is that some instructors are very petty and resent the fact that they are not taking $300 from a student, so fail them when they take the test just to teach them a lesson. I know of one instructor who openly brags about the fact that he fails everyone who "insults" him by not paying $300 to take "his" course.

This could be prevented if the challenge exam was conducted by a neutral 3rd party.

Well, forty years ago most instructors charged enough to cover their expenses. They would give the course in their rec room, garage or donated space . Students would get coffee and cookies, donuts etc. They would often get to take a few guns out to someone's range and actually fire them at the end of the course. Very seldom did anyone fail because if a student was weak they would get extra help until they knew what they were doing.
I imagine that the instructors house insurance covered any chance of an accident that might result in a lawsuit but back then lawyers were few and far between with lawsuits being almost unknown and seldom worried about.
The instructors did it because they liked working with guns and shooters, this gave them a chance to practice their "trade".

If you can still just challenge the exam, why can't you just pick someone to teach you and give them "gas money"?
This is beginning to sound like the boating course.......

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bigbear

\

What I do have a problem with is that some instructors are very petty and resent the fact that they are not taking $300 from a student, so fail them when they take the test just to teach them a lesson. I know of one instructor who openly brags about the fact that he fails everyone who "insults" him by not paying $300 to take "his" course.

This could be prevented if the challenge exam was conducted by a neutral 3rd party.

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I love that..classic...guy thinks he knows it all..."don't need no stinking course" and challenges the exam. Fails then blames it on the tester...LOL...

My buddy challenged the exams here. He was a long time hunter from another province and had taken the course there etc...he walked in and passed no problem. If you know what is required to pass they don't (can't) fail you out of spite...ridiculous.
My course was very clear..the testers we're independent from the instructors....came in just for the exam. Made it appear above board, especially since there were two testers.

We keep having these threads about the cost of hunting, be it the course, equipment, tags, licences etc...It's a sport, it voluntary and it's no different than a vast majority of other sports that you can get involved in...play Hockey ?.....(I could have paid for the entire hunt camps cost for 5 guys with what it cost me to put 2 kids in hockey for a 5 month season...LOL)

If you want to enjoy the fun things in life it cost money and it mean you have to make a sacrifice to make it happen. Looking for a shoulder to cry on doesn't do much in the way of attaining your goals.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

I love that..classic...guy thinks he knows it all..."don't need no stinking course" and challenges the exam. Fails then blames it on the tester...LOL...

My buddy challenged the exams here. He was a long time hunter from another province and had taken the course there etc...he walked in and passed no problem. If you know what is required to pass they don't (can't) fail you out of spite...ridiculous.
My course was very clear..the testers we're independent from the instructors....came in just for the exam. Made it appear above board, especially since there were two testers.

We keep having these threads about the cost of hunting, be it the course, equipment, tags, licences etc...It's a sport, it voluntary and it's no different than a vast majority of other sports that you can get involved in...play Hockey ?.....(I could have paid for the entire hunt camps cost for 5 guys with what it cost me to put 2 kids in hockey for a 5 month season...LOL)

If you want to enjoy the fun things in life it cost money and it mean you have to make a sacrifice to make it happen. Looking for a shoulder to cry on doesn't do much in the way of attaining your goals.

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Good points all around Mike.

Re: challenging - if you challenge the firearms exam without studying the manual carefully, you will fail.
How many of you lever action or semi-auto users check your barrel for obstructions by looking up the business end of the barrel - something I was taught to *never* do?

Just as a bit of a comparison...... Through work, I am a member of a local business networking group... that consistently offers seminars and training courses, "Lean Manufacturing", "Lean Supervisor", etc, etc... They typically would have 20-30 participants.

A typical fee for one of these 2 day courses would be $800 per person or $700 if you are a member.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mark270wsm

Can someone explain to me why the cost is 300 bucks.. I just read on the ood site that the hunting course cost around 300 bucks I know this includes the firearms course but are we really kidding ourselves . I think that 300 bucks is a little excessive seeing its only a 20 hour course if you have 15 kids/adults that's 4500 bucks less about a grand for the books and course fees. and most places cost the same amount, this boarders almost on collusion (price fixing) . at this cost no wonder hunting is dyeing 300 bucks for hunter ed 50 for pal plus 10 for picture . This system is flawed and needs to be fixed .

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by mark270wsm

Dythbringer are you kidding me. the cost is not the issue here the problem is it is a set price and as we have heard there is no competition . Like I said it is not the money we in Ontario are not only getting bled dry by our government we are also getting bled dry by our hunter safety course . I urge you to check these websites out and the cost and tell me if you think it is right for us to be charged this much

http://www.atlantichuntered.ca/nb/HunterEducation.htm

LESS THAN A HUNDRED DOLLARS FOR BOTH PAL AND HUNTERS COURSE.. AND WE PAY 300 I THINK A PHONE CALL TO MY MPP IS IN ORDER

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mark270wsm,

I have added your OP for some context. I am not sure where you got yoru information about the OHEP being $300. I have found a course instructor in Barrie which has the OHEP for $150. If you decide to take the Canadian Firearm Saftey Course with the same instructor/course, the course is bumped up to $250. All three courses (Hunter Ed, CFSC, and the restricted course puts you in the range of $375). This is according to the instructors website: http://www.hunters-course.ca/

Now the way I see it, for two (or three) courses (considering one course is provincial and one (or two) course is federal), that is a more than fair price. I use to work at a company which designed blast furnaces and the company gave me the opportunity to attend a Blast Furnace Ironmaking course (there is a link from last year's course:http://mcmasteel.mcmaster.ca/bfcours...chure_2012.pdf). The cost of the course (40 hours) is $1750 (the price is on the brochure) per person. I am not sure if you have ever looked into continuing your education at a post-secondary school (night classes, online classes, etc) but considering the fees for the class can run past $300 (that is simply what the class costs to attend then you have to go and purchase your own course material for those classes), I believe the hunter's ed is priced relatively well.

Dyth

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Redd.... 20 students a week end.... 6000. Dollars... Once a month lets say... 72000.. I think that they make good money...

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Less the insurance, cost of the books, cost of equipment (initial outlay and gradual replacement as things wear out), rent a place to hold the course, (or own a place to hold the course - electricity, heat, etc.), pay someone else to give the test, travel to where the course is held assuming it is not at home, advertising, etc.

Some may make lots of money putting on the course. Others in smaller communities or where there is more competition by other instructors...maybe not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grizzlygreig

are iindividual instructors able to right off things like hotels, gas, and other things like class rooms to teach in as kinda like a small Business?... Wonder if the ontario government would be able to do the same thing that the New Brunswick government does and have our MNR do the course here for the same cash as N.B.?... We pay way more taxes then they do there ... Don't know for sure about the taxes but we pay our fair share for sure!!!!

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Still wondering about this OPTION...and are expenses not a right off...

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Originally Posted by grizzlygreig

Still wondering about this OPTION...and are expenses not a right off...

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I don't think you understand how writing off expenses actually works. It doesn't make the expense go away.

You have to pay for whatever the expense is. Then, when tax season rolls around, you get to claim that expense on your taxes, which reduces your tax bill. If I earn $1,000 and incur $400 in expenses doing it, I have only $600. And all that writing off the expense does for me is to let me avoid paying taxes on some of my $600. So, if I was going to pay 30% tax (to keep the math simple), and it was a straight deduction (i.e. my $400 expense reduces the taxable income by $400), writing off the expense lets me keep $120 that I would otherwise have paid in tax, and my after-tax income is $540. Without the writeoff it would be $420.

Buying guns to use in class is probably not a straight deduction. Then you're into capital claims allowance.

People who don't run small businesses seem to think that writing off expenses magically puts money back in your pocket. It does not.

grizzlygreig,

Sorry I hadn't responded to your comment.

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Originally Posted by grizzlygreig

Ok... Still not bad money!... But not having a option to choose here is what I am getting at... And dyth it is not just a rich mans sport... It's a individuals choice what he spends to be in the out doors.... IMO... No offence to ya boys!...
not looking for a pissing match....lol

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Hunting isn't a rich mans sport. However, it is more expensive than most people think it is. It is much like owning a dog. By the time an average dog's life has ended, you will have paid more towards overhead costs (food, vet bills, training, etc) than you do for the inital purchase of the dog. Most activities/pasttime have a similar dynamic. It costs more to maintain your presence in an activity than the intial cost to start it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grizzlygreig

are iindividual instructors able to right off things like hotels, gas, and other things like class rooms to teach in as kinda like a small Business?... Wonder if the ontario government would be able to do the same thing that the New Brunswick government does and have our MNR do the course here for the same cash as N.B.?... We pay way more taxes then they do there ... Don't know for sure about the taxes but we pay our fair share for sure!!!!

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by grizzlygreig

Still wondering about this OPTION...and are expenses not a right off...

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You are assuming the instructors are making money under this program which we aren't 100% sure they do. Lowering costs may mean it will strictly become an academic course (no hands-on experience with firearms and you will have to purchase your books involved in the course). We also have to consider the current government dynamic right now. Between the various scandals which the current government is involved in as well as the MNR is slashing it's budget right now, asking to lower the cost of the course and price matching is more than likely very low on their priority list considering the current government gets most of it's support from urban centres (not that I am saying there aren't hunters in urban centres but their percentage represented is lower than rural areas).

Dyth

You teach those courses? You must be involved in Manufacturing?

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Originally Posted by HuntCamp'r

Just as a bit of a comparison...... Through work, I am a member of a local business networking group... that consistently offers seminars and training courses, "Lean Manufacturing", "Lean Supervisor", etc, etc... They typically would have 20-30 participants.

A typical fee for one of these 2 day courses would be $800 per person or $700 if you are a member.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

How many of you lever action or semi-auto users check your barrel for obstructions by looking up the business end of the barrel - something I was taught to *never* do?

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Not necessary. You can check the barrel/chamber for obstructions with a cleaning rod.

Right off your car?... Gas?... Office space in your own home?... Computer?... Meals?... Place to teach course?.... So tax payers are making a contribute to the course already... Just wanted to know if it could be a option for our MNR to put it on cheaper for new hunters on line like other provinces..or if you feel that you would prefer a hands on course then go to a private instructor ?... Not having a option is the thing here in ontario...

Once again - Any questions about the Ontario Hunter Education Program (www.ohep.net) may be directed to [email protected] or by calling (705) 748-5785 -- they will be better able to answer any questions about the program you may have.

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Originally Posted by grizzlygreig

Right off your car?... Gas?... Office space in your own home?... Computer?... Meals?... Place to teach course?.... So tax payers are making a contribute to the course already... Just wanted to know if it could be a option for our MNR to put it on cheaper for new hunters on line like other provinces..or if you feel that you would prefer a hands on course then go to a private instructor ?... Not having a option is the thing here in ontario...

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Again you are assuming they are self employed or running a business. Simply because there is a fee to take the course doesn't mean the instructor is getting paid or making any kind of profit from the class. When kids learn sports there is a fee to cover the costs involved with running the sport but the coaches aren't paid, they volunteer their time. They can't write off expenses such as the cost of gas to get to the field because they aren't running a business.

Dyth

Dyth

grizzlygreig, you seriously overestimate what can be written off.

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Originally Posted by grizzlygreig

Right off your car?...

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Not unless the car is owned by the business. And if the car is owned by the business -- which is teaching firearms and hunting courses -- then its primary use must be to transport you to and from said courses. Nobody is teaching that many hunter safety courses.

No, the instructor can't write off his car, unless he wants to get nailed for tax evasion.

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Originally Posted by grizzlygreig

Gas?...

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You could claim mileage for transportation to and from the place where you ran the course. Again, all this does is to reduce your tax owing. It doesn't pay for your gas.

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Originally Posted by grizzlygreig

Office space in your own home?...

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Only if the office space in your home is used exclusively (or at least primarily) for the purpose of running your business. No one is in his home office, doing course administration work, five days a week.

No, the instructor can't claim business use of his home.

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Originally Posted by grizzlygreig

Computer?...

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Not unless the primary use of the computer is for the courses. The instructor could claim a laptop used with a projector in the courses, but he could not claim his home computer because he uses it for administration.

Computers are a capital cost, by the way, not a writeoff.

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Originally Posted by grizzlygreig

Meals?...

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You're better off brown-bagging it. If you spend $15 on lunch then with a 30% tax rate your writeoff is $4.50. You still spent ten bucks which you'll never see again.

There is no free lunch. The extent to which taxpayers are paying for the costs of putting on these courses, through tax deductions, is only a fraction of the actual costs. That's how tax deductions work.

Here's the bottom line: we have an MNR that can't find the money to carry out its basic mandate, and you want the government to pay for your one-time user fees through tax dollars.

21300 people took the program last year. 21300 x300 =6390000 that's a ton of cash that can go back into the mnr even if they charged half that price its still around 3000000 that could go along way into the coffers of hunting I know I know the government would just absorbed the money but its got to be better than what is happening now . And who plays by the rules when it comes to revenue Canada. Time for this progam to evolve into the 20th century . its just like hockey a lot of kids sit on the sidelines cause its so expensive, because it is . there is no reason that I can see for the fee to be so high

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Originally Posted by welsh

grizzlygreig, you seriously overestimate what can be written off.



Not unless the car is owned by the business. And if the car is owned by the business -- which is teaching firearms and hunting courses -- then its primary use must be to transport you to and from said courses. Nobody is teaching that many hunter safety courses.

No, the instructor can't write off his car, unless he wants to get nailed for tax evasion.



You could claim mileage for transportation to and from the place where you ran the course. Again, all this does is to reduce your tax owing. It doesn't pay for your gas.



Only if the office space in your home is used exclusively (or at least primarily) for the purpose of running your business. No one is in his home office, doing course administration work, five days a week.

No, the instructor can't claim business use of his home.



Not unless the primary use of the computer is for the courses. The instructor could claim a laptop used with a projector in the courses, but he could not claim his home computer because he uses it for administration.

Computers are a capital cost, by the way, not a writeoff.



You're better off brown-bagging it. If you spend $15 on lunch then with a 30% tax rate your writeoff is $4.50. You still spent ten bucks which you'll never see again.

There is no free lunch. The extent to which taxpayers are paying for the costs of putting on these courses, through tax deductions, is only a fraction of the actual costs. That's how tax deductions work.

Here's the bottom line: we have an MNR that can't find the money to carry out its basic mandate, and you want the government to pay for your one-time user fees through tax dollars.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEL65gywwHQ

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Originally Posted by mark270wsm

21300 people took the program last year. 21300 x300 =6390000 that's a ton of cash that can go back into the mnr even if they charged half that price its still around 3000000 that could go along way into the coffers of hunting I know I know the government would just absorbed the money but its got to be better than what is happening now . And who plays by the rules when it comes to revenue Canada. Time for this progam to evolve into the 20th century . its just like hockey a lot of kids sit on the sidelines cause its so expensive, because it is . there is no reason that I can see for the fee to be so high

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mark270wsm,

The OHEP doesn't cost $300. I don't know where you are getting this information from.

Dyth

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mark270wsm

21300 people took the program last year. 21300 x300 =6390000 that's a ton of cash that can go back into the mnr even if they charged half that price its still around 3000000 that could go along way into the coffers of hunting I know I know the government would just absorbed the money but its got to be better than what is happening now...

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Except that, as someone already pointed out above and as you have chosen to ignore, the cost of the hunter ed program is not $300. That would be a typical cost for a combined OHEP and CFSC program. Hunter ed, the portion that the province is responsible for, is less. A quick search turns up $135 in Ottawa, $160 in Caledonia, $185 in Barrie, $140 in Toronto, $120 in Pembroke, and $170 in London.

So the answer to your original question is that OHEP doesn't cost $300 and you should pull your head out.

As for your arithmetic above, the total revenue would of course be half of what you suggest, because the course costs half of what you say it does.

Then we run into your silly assumption that the tuition fees would go "back into the MNR," as if the MNR employees delivering the courses aren't paid and as if all the expenses of running the course somehow disappear when the government delivers it.

This leads us to the implicit suggestion that it would be okay for the government to hose us on the cost of the course because the money would be going back into "the coffers of hunting." Most people would agree that government-delivered services should be delivered at no more than the cost to provide them.

We have an MNR that can't afford to deliver the services it is already mandated to deliver, in a province that is facing a serious debt problem and a revenue shortfall. And you are suggesting that the MNR should deliver OHEP training to reduce the cost, rather than having hunters bear the cost of their own activities. You seem to think that governments deliver services for free and that the fees they charge go back into government coffers.

Who is it you were accusing of voting Liberal?

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Originally Posted by mark270wsm

And who plays by the rules when it comes to revenue Canada.

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This has nothing to do with it. I'm amazed at how we can move from "they write it off" to "they can write off other stuff too" and finally to "everyone cheats so they must be writing it off."

The point is that you can't write off an expense without spending the money (the Senate notwithstanding). This idea that OHEP instructors are cheating you and rolling in cash comes from sheer ignorance. The money spent on expenses is gone and it reduces the instructor's net income.

You asked why the course costs $300, which it does not. You received answers from knowledgeable people about the costs of delivering these courses. You chose to ignore those answers. It seems your question was disingenuous.

Meanwhile, I don't see any OHEP instructors lighting cigars with $100 bills.

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Originally Posted by mark270wsm

there is no reason that I can see for the fee to be so high

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This tells us less about the cost of running courses, to be quite frank, than it does about your own limitations.

Ok... On line courses in other provinces are no good... Nobody cheats on taxes... Gotta have money to be in hunting... I have heard enough crap on this subject... And everyone else that has read it can make up there own minds !...

Re: Welsh's comments about write-offs - I run my own business and what he has posted related to write-offs is the way it works...except that the lunch write-off is 50%, I think, not 30%. As far as people cheating when dealing with Revenue Canada, I don't, and most business people I know don't and if you work with an accountant, they won't let you. Getting on Revenue Canada's bad side is not something you want to do. You can arrange your tax situation to be as much in your favour as you can, but there are two things you cannot do (a) not report income and (b) report expenses which you did not incur directly related to your business.

$300 is going to be the cheapest part of the hunting / shooting experience ! Don't tell my wife i'm into the 10's of thousands now. LOL

Unless your very wealthy not worth trying to cheat. My brother cheated and got nailed he had to pay back over 10K. So I don't cheat on my taxes. You can always challenge the course then you just pay for that I think approx 60.00

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Originally Posted by Exo200

$300 is going to be the cheapest part of the hunting / shooting experience ! Don't tell my wife i'm into the 10's of thousands now. LOL

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Exo200,

I know that and you know that but there are some folks on these boards whom cannot comprehend concepts such as ongoing expenses. They seem to think licences, firearms, gas, ammo, etc don't cost any money. Then when they are repeatedly told they are incorrect and shown evidence and arguments by people who are either vastly more knowledgable or experienced than themselves, instead of admitting they may have been incorrect, they become all grumpy and don't want to play with us anymore.

Dyth

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I love that..classic...guy thinks he knows it all..."don't need no stinking course" and challenges the exam. Fails then blames it on the tester...LOL...

My buddy challenged the exams here. He was a long time hunter from another province and had taken the course there etc...he walked in and passed no problem. If you know what is required to pass they don't (can't) fail you out of spite...ridiculous.

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Sure. Just like:

(a) a cop can't charge you out of spite,
(b) a university prof can't fail you out of spite
(c) a politician can't ignore your phone calls out of spite
(d) and the federal government can't audit your income tax out of spite

Ridiculous....for sure.

[QUOTE][My course was very clear...the testers we're independent from the instructors....came in just for the exam/QUOTE]

In this particular locale, the guy who gives the course is the same guy who does the challenge testing. And with his particular attitude, that's ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by bowj

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEL65gywwHQ

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I was thinking of this clip the whole time I was reading this thread!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

Re: Welsh's comments about write-offs - I run my own business and what he has posted related to write-offs is the way it works...except that the lunch write-off is 50%, I think, not 30%. As far as people cheating when dealing with Revenue Canada, I don't, and most business people I know don't and if you work with an accountant, they won't let you. Getting on Revenue Canada's bad side is not something you want to do. You can arrange your tax situation to be as much in your favour as you can, but there are two things you cannot do (a) not report income and (b) report expenses which you did not incur directly related to your business.

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For the most part I've bailed on this, it's going south. Nicely said Werner, yeah anyone "can" cheat, people who care about their lives, their businesses, their careers……….don't.

You forgot c) claim expenses over and above the income derived from the business.

I could have all the legitimate expenses in the world, gas, car, travel, meals, home office (20% of my mortgage), capital cost (which is amortized), sundry supplies, and maybe even a part time employee or two, such that my expenses are in the tens of thousands.

Rev Can won't look fondly on it if Im claiming 50,000 in expenses and an income of 1,000.
Thats called a bad business model and the smart business decision is to shut it down

Still think the option of a on- line course would be ok... Maybe even for a refresher for a older hunter or a out of province hunter wanting to challenge the exam

Any argument to that boys?... What would be the problem?...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

Re: Welsh's comments about write-offs - I run my own business and what he has posted related to write-offs is the way it works...except that the lunch write-off is 50%, I think, not 30%.

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You're probably right. I was using 30% because that's the rate I had pulled out of the air for a previous example.

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

Unless your very wealthy not worth trying to cheat. My brother cheated and got nailed he had to pay back over 10K. So I don't cheat on my taxes.

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Years back I worked as a technical writer on contract. We worked at the office, using computers provided by the company. Nevertheless I had some colleagues who felt that they should be able to set up a home office and claim business use of home, and buy a home computer and claim that, too. One claimed his mileage to drive across town to work. He was audited and had to pay it all back. It's not worth it.

In any case, it's irrelevant. When we come down to people saying "well people cheat on their taxes and therefore OHEP instructors are cheating on their taxes and therefore the taxpayer is subsidizing them," at that point the truth has pretty much fled the building.

There are always people who are convinced they are being ripped off because they don't understand why things cost what they do -- whether it's OHEP, the wedding photographer, the vet, the mechanic, or whoever.

Yes I did use ohep cost 300 .. I should make my self clearer and it is my fault. the hole time I have been using the online courses where the cost would be 120 bucks for both the hunters course and the firearms course my question would be 300 for us in Ontario is not right.

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Any argument to that boys?... What would be the problem?...

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An online course is always an option but if you look at the online boating license course, it basically gives a person a license to drive a boat having had no actual experience having been in one. I'm not sure I want to be hunting next to a hunter who took the course online and never held a gun in his/her life until after they passed the course and went out and bought one. At least with the present system, as long as the instructor is doing their job, all participants become somewhat familiar with a few types of guns and how to safely handle, load, unload them.

I know the next argument will be that one can take the turkey course on line or by CD. Correct but all have already qualified for a hunting license first....I think.

Redd... They still have to pass the EXAM!...wich is a practical if I remember correctly ... And the tester can fail them if they make a mistake the same as they can if it was through a instructor... It is done in other provinces... Why shouldn't it be done here... Lol...but I agree ... Any new hunter can be scary when that first bird busts from there feet!!...and I am Not trolling for a argument ... I have respect for all good points brought up in this great debate!!...

I would agree with you if the exam includes a practical that is done in person and includes safe gun handling as part of that. I would be afraid that if the course is online then the exam would be as well like the boat exam.

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Originally Posted by redd foxx

I would agree with you if the exam includes a practical that is done in person and includes safe gun handling as part of that. I would be afraid that if the course is online then the exam would be as well like the boat exam.

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Agreed 100% - IMHO - Nobody should get a firearms licence without a hands-on practical exam.... The fella that taught my son's course was telling me, "he does everything in his power to ensure that all his students pass the exams fairly, but there have been a handful of people throughout the years that he has had to fail due to their poor handling skills".... saying "some people should just never be allowed to handle a loaded gun".

The same might be said for the boaters exam as well.... Just like a drivers licence.... just because you can pass a written test does not mean that you are capable of safe driving or safe boating.

Just as an addition to this conversation:

My brother-in-law is a new hunter and took the course last year, I think it cost him $210 for the One Stop, plus an additional $30 for the required books. I may be wrong however. I think this fee was justified.

I sat with him throughout the course and within the first hour the instructors both - clearly said - after getting everyone's strict attention - "Although these practice guns are disabled and cannot be fired, if you point them anywhere besides this safe direction, you will be given a failing mark immediately." I was quite shocked and thought "These guys can't be serious." but within the first three hours of that first evening - three guys were taken into the back room and asked to leave, but they could come back for the hunting portion of the course.

Anyways, not-so-relevant, or perhaps it is - just thought I'd share that.

Online course - runned by the government who have contracted the program to a company in the US who would likely house thier data center in india.

I would rather pay the 300 dollars with the piece of mind the money is staying in Ontario.

That's a whole other thread toddy!!!... Sucks at we can't do our own tags here!... And our private stuff is floating around in other countries!!

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Originally Posted by HuntCamp'r

The same might be said for the boaters exam as well.... Just like a drivers licence.... just because you can pass a written test does not mean that you are capable of safe driving or safe boating.

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Careful there HuntCamp'r, the wrath of the masses will rain upon you? Don't you realize everyone who runs a boat is an expert and doesn't need no stinken license to operate safely.:)

In any event, the time, effort and money involved to take the OHEP course and the lessons learned make it seem like an absolutely solid investment compared to the absolute rip-off of ROTHIP: Retarded Ontario Turkey Hunter Improvement Program.:rolleye::rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Bigbear

In any event, the time, effort and money involved to take the OHEP course and the lessons learned make it seem like an absolutely solid investment compared to the absolute rip-off of ROTHIP: Retarded Ontario Turkey Hunter Improvement Program.:rolleye::rolleyes:

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You are showing your age BB we can't ,( should not) use the R word.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bushmoose

Careful there HuntCamp'r, the wrath of the masses will rain upon you? Don't you realize everyone who runs a boat is an expert and doesn't need no stinken license to operate safely.:)

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LOL - I really thought I might get booted off the forum for that one. :ninja:

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

You are showing your age BB we can't ,( should not) use the R word.

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Yup. And I'm really showing my age because (a) I know the word is considered non politically correct, but (b) I use it anyway.:moose:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mark270wsm

so if I am a out of province hunter I can challenge the exam for 40 dollars I can also challenge the fire arms course for 40 dollars. i see most hunter safety courses in the usa are reasonably cheap. so if your a non resident you can come to Ontario and start hunting for about 100 bucks... something is so wrong with that.

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If you want to hunt a kid has to take a hunter's safety course - they are often given by hunting and fishing clubs - the price is $0 - they are given for free - :shades:

Where are you guys that are getting charged so much? My course was once a week and only cost $180 including books last winter. My buddy did a weekend one for $250 including books

If the instructor insnt making minimum 30 points they should bird watching or go fishing. It's buisness and its ok to make money. The net profit relates to # of seats sold. They may have to run a course with only 6 seats. Next one may have 15. It's hunting not charity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by genec

The course costs depend to a certain extent on where the instructor teaches from e.g., what does it cost to rent a facility to use for a course. (We charge $240 for both H Ed & PAL). Rents in urban areas probably are higher than more rural areas.
Then, you have to understand that an instructor receives NOTHING for free to teach these courses:
- We have to buy the books & exams
- we have to pay 3 liability insurance fees to teach the 3 courses each year
- We have to buy all the equipment we use to teach with (e.g., laptop computer & projector. We had to replace our old projector a year ago - cheapest I could find was over $350)
- All the guns we use in these courses we have to provide, and they have to be disabled before we can use them. And with the beating that the guns take in these courses, we have to replace them on a regular basis. Have you checked out gun prices lately? The last 2 I had to buy cost me $625 used. We need to replace some others soon!
- We are continually replacing dummy ammunition as it gets beaten up with the constant cycling through the actions by students. Even by making our own, we still need to buy bullets & brass, drill 3 holes in each shell, and paint bullets & primer holes blue.
Then somewhere in there we need to pay for our expenses also - food, gas, etc. By the end of each course I've put 450 Km on my vehicle.
You're lucky the course fees aren't any higher than they are!

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Excellent points!!Those who give of their time coaching will certainly understand, and relate to Hunter Ed instructors! My question to some who have posted towards lowering costs....Would you like to purchase $5000 for equipment, plus liability insurance, plus rental fee's, plus gas, hotel, food, wear & tear on your own personal vehicle, time away from your family etc.... and do all this for free or minimal pay? I urge you to step up to the plate and teach it! I teach the course because I absolutely love it! I am thrilled when I have shaken the hand of those who passed the course, and welcomed them into this great "club" we are all a part of.

Wildfowl... Otption to choose on- line course or instructor like other provinces.... CHOICES!... Then test hands on to pass your licences... Works other places... Why not here in ontario...

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Originally Posted by JoePa

If you want to hunt a kid has to take a hunter's safety course - they are often given by hunting and fishing clubs - the price is $0 - they are given for free - :shades:

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This would bring more newbies!!!

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Originally Posted by grizzlygreig

Wildfowl... Otption to choose on- line course or instructor like other provinces.... CHOICES!... Then test hands on to pass your licences... Works other places... Why not here in ontario...

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Your point is valid, however I am not yet sold on the online portion of it. I believe that too much can be "lost" while doing an online course. I still believe that questions, stories and examples, play a vital role in anchoring the important parts of the course in the minds of the students.

well did some calling around.. I can get it done in another state even though I am a resident of Ontario and then come back and challenge the exam. so how is it I can go out of province or state do a online course and pass and then come back to Ontario and challenge the exam for 40 bucks... the Ontario card center was kinda taken back that it was done online in other provinces and most states do as well.. she was also shocked to see that it could be done cheaper a lot .. anyway anyone who is traveling to usa and wants to do it online and go and do practical test and then come back to Ontario and challenge the exam you can save yourself a few buck... best part is you can do it at your own pace online... and then set up the test ...

That's assuming one comes back and passes the test that they challenge!!

Alberta is one, hunting course is 75, gun course is 105 plus 80 for the PAL. We can do them on line, at least the hunter ED, daughter is doing hers as we speak.

I can tell you this. I had to do the exams for many years and those who were able to challenge the exam through age, lost proof/obsolete licences, etc. most failed the practical.

Ok. Just a quick online check.

$120 to take the course, and take the exam here in ON. ( Includes book). That's not too bad.

Mark, your logic is that you'll register for an online course in the US costing what? Plus the cost of gas to go do your practical. Oh and lets not ignore the fact that from a lot of the stateside websites I've just seen, the online version is available to residents only ( proof required). So let's say you pay $60 US to take the course, plus your gas to drive from TO to the US to do it ( another $40 perhaps?) plus the value of your time to do the travelling, and wait at the border. Now add the cost of challenging the exam at $40.

What are you really saving? Last time I checked the trip from TO to Buffalo ran 2 hours each way, 4 hours total......what is your time worth?

Sorry friend, but if this end run you're thinking of is really such a value, do you not think it would have been discussed on these boards already? Do you not think that some other enterprising individual would have done it, and then came back extolling the virtue of doing so?

The price of the course is good value. The total cost of getting your hunters ed, and PAL is $300. Peanuts compared to the cost of getting involved in many other things. Given the fact that they are "lifetime courses" and don't require a training re-cert, they are huge value.

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Originally Posted by mark270wsm

well did some calling around.. I can get it done in another state even though I am a resident of Ontario and then come back and challenge the exam. ...

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No, you can't.
IF you are a resident of Ontario, you MUST take the course before you can get your first hunting license.
IF you are a resident OF A US STATE, with a CURRENT state hunting license from that state, you are allowed to come in and challenge the Ontario exam ONCE. If you pass, then ok. If you fail, then you must take the course.
Just having a US license doesn't make you a US citizen!

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Originally Posted by genec

No, you can't.
IF you are a resident of Ontario, you MUST take the course before you can get your first hunting license.
IF you are a resident OF A US STATE, with a CURRENT state hunting license from that state, you are allowed to come in and challenge the Ontario exam ONCE. If you pass, then ok. If you fail, then you must take the course.
Just having a US license doesn't make you a US citizen!

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GENEC your now calling me a liar... (you called me one in a earlier post so now I think you are SEVERLY WRONG on your above reply .. I have found a loop hole in the system and exposed it as a blantant cash grab on new hunters maybe just maybe you will have to offer your courses for cheaper price I visit the usa regularly and it would be no extra fee for me to have my child done stateside.
ALSO I have confirmation from the Ontario card center that says different I called the mnr office and they refered me to the card center . now its it time to make a push for Ontario to be online ready so that will be my next excursion ...

You travel to the USA frequently, but you're complaining about having to take a $120 Hunters Safety course?

Good luck to you friend, you've found a "loop hole", that would appear to almost be a break even point when you add it up. Assuming that you then pass when you challenge the exam.

I re-iterate, you must be very smart, as you've found something that 1000s of hunters before you haven't. And it obviously is such a great idea that everyone on here who has navigated the system before you probably regrets missing it.

Do keep us posted on your odyssey.

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Originally Posted by mark270wsm

GENEC your now calling me a liar... (you called me one in a earlier post so now I think you are SEVERLY WRONG on your above reply .. I have found a loop hole in the system and exposed it as a blantant cash grab on new hunters maybe just maybe you will have to offer your courses for cheaper price I visit the usa regularly and it would be no extra fee for me to have my child done stateside.
ALSO I have confirmation from the Ontario card center that says different I called the mnr office and they refered me to the card center . now its it time to make a push for Ontario to be online ready so that will be my next excursion ...

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Mark,
how is it you can be a resident of both New York and Ontario? Sounds real fishy to me not a "loop hole" as you claim, but you have traded your honour and integrity for what, money? Does saving a few dollars really mean that much to you? If you are a businessman going into the states, you are not very smart, otherwise you would have already realized the time and energy you have spent into maneuvering and finding the "loophole" has cost you more than the $100.00 you saved. Real smart!!
So if you get offended, oh well!!

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12. (1) The Minister or any person designated by the Minister may appoint persons to be hunter education examiners for such period as the Minister may determine. O. Reg. 665/98, s. 12 (1).
(2) The examiner shall issue a report to an applicant who successfully completes an examination approved by the Minister. O. Reg. 665/98, s. 12 (2); O. Reg. 600/05, s. 7.
(3) Every applicant for an examination shall submit with the application,
(a) a certificate issued to the applicant by a hunting instructor under section 13 or a predecessor of it;
(b) a certificate indicating that the applicant has completed a hunter education course issued to the applicant after January 1, 1968 by a competent authority in any jurisdiction; or
(c) a hunting licence issued after January 1, 1968 to the applicant by a competent authority in any jurisdiction in which he or she was a resident at the time. O. Reg. 665/98, s. 12 (3).
(4) A resident who fails to pass his or her first hunting licence examination in Ontario shall not apply for re-examination unless he or she files with the application a certificate issued by a hunting instructor under section 13. O. Reg. 665/98, s. 12 (4).

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Above appears to be the section dealing with exams in Ontario. Looks like section "c" is the one that would apply to licenses issued outside of Ontario as proof of hunting experience and it would appear the person would have had to be a resident in that jurisdiction when that license was obtained. Travelling to the U.S to do the course may not work.

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Originally Posted by mark270wsm

GENEC your now calling me a liar... (you called me one in a earlier post so now I think you are SEVERLY WRONG on your above reply .. I have found a loop hole in the system and exposed it as a blantant cash grab on new hunters maybe just maybe you will have to offer your courses for cheaper price I visit the usa regularly and it would be no extra fee for me to have my child done stateside.
ALSO I have confirmation from the Ontario card center that says different I called the mnr office and they refered me to the card center . now its it time to make a push for Ontario to be online ready so that will be my next excursion ...

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If you showed up with a US license and NO proof that you were a US citizen of the state that issued you that license I would REFUSE to give you a challenge exam because you're NOT a citizen of the license issuing state!
Take offense of you want, but that's the rules that we have to follow for testing.
If you could produce WRITTEN confirmation from the MNR that you would be allowed to challenge the exam with the US license that that would be different - the MNR is the decision making body in Ontario that dictates the rules for hunting in Ontario.

there has a lot of bantering about this thread
good and bad points

I was an instructor for 15 years, until they wanted to combine the hunting course and pal course.

But I think we have beat this subject to death...Just my opion
...lol

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Originally Posted by baby123

there has a lot of bantering about this thread
good and bad points

I was an instructor for 15 years, until they wanted to combine the hunting course and pal course.

But I think we have beat this subject to death...Just my opion
...lol

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YES i would think so, like about 6 pages back. lol.

Hey turkey rookie... Check this one out...

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Originally Posted by grizzlygreig

Hey turkey rookie... Check this one out...

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Thank you sir, I had missed it, somehow :)

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Originally Posted by TurkeyRookie

Thank you sir, I had missed it, somehow :)

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What are you guys doing? Going for the necropost awards?

A friend of mine is taking his course in Pembrook next week. The all in one is costing 300.00 and is 5 days.

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Originally Posted by Bluebulldog

What are you guys doing? Going for the necropost awards?

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lol I had started a threat not realizing it was already started, was being pointed out to me :)

I paid the 145 or so for HEC and did the challenge test for PAL. total cost 200.00. Ex military, but I learned alot and if that was purpose..then worth the cost of admission IMHO.

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Originally Posted by line052

I paid the 145 or so for HEC and did the challenge test for PAL. total cost 200.00. Ex military, but I learned alot and if that was purpose..then worth the cost of admission IMHO.

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Did the same thing myself.

I found doing the Hunters Safety Course in 1994 it was an evening, and a full weekend. I did it first, then challenged the exam for my FAC ( PAL)....back then, the part about firearms safety was a large component of the Hunters Safety course. Being ex-army as well, I was already familiar with firearms, and things like trigger discipline, so it was a relatively easy process.

Of course the FAC exam back then also had pistols as a regular part of it.

And since the thread has been revived.

mark270wsm.....please do educate the rest of us how you made out with your hunters safety strategy?

I think I got mine for 100.00 in 1994 (I had an FAC since 1988 but it had expired so I had to redo it all). Handgun was also included the instructor said that was the last time it would be included as the government was making it a seperate course.

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Originally Posted by Bluebulldog

Did the same thing myself.

I found doing the Hunters Safety Course in 1994 it was an evening, and a full weekend. I did it first, then challenged the exam for my FAC ( PAL)....back then, the part about firearms safety was a large component of the Hunters Safety course. Being ex-army as well, I was already familiar with firearms, and things like trigger discipline, so it was a relatively easy process.

Of course the FAC exam back then also had pistols as a regular part of it.

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Werner, Agrred with everything listed below. The truth

30% for meals according to my QuickBooks, program. Every business guy will agree rights are good to reduce your income. The problem people have is they forget, the cost of doing the business and the write are built into the cost. I.E 10K deck = 5K materials and labor 5K profit (example not real.) The remaining 5K is taxable, unless you have other expenses. On years I will have a big tax liability I invest in CCA to reduce income paid (new truck/excavator) Some people might call this cheating however equipment has to be replaced or upgrade to meet the needs of works, I started with a small truck and as the income/work scope got heavier my truck size changed. It was also directly related to income earned and write off (CCA) gained by doing the upgrade. I like you do not brake the rules, but live within the guidelines provided by Rev Can. Oh BTW, like you I have given up claiming meals as the ROI is only 30%, and I won’t spending 100 bucks to claim $33.00, the tax is less in most cases.

If these are claiming this income on taxes, whatever profit is left from actual, it goes towards income on there real job T4 amount, which might make them in tax disadvantage situation. My .02 cents.

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

Re: Welsh's comments about write-offs - I run my own business and what he has posted related to write-offs is the way it works...except that the lunch write-off is 50%, I think, not 30%. As far as people cheating when dealing with Revenue Canada, I don't, and most business people I know don't and if you work with an accountant, they won't let you. Getting on Revenue Canada's bad side is not something you want to do. You can arrange your tax situation to be as much in your favour as you can, but there are two things you cannot do (a) not report income and (b) report expenses which you did not incur directly related to your business.

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i have been told that if i show up with a hunter safety certificate from another province or state I can not be turned down for challenging the hunters exam in ontario

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Originally Posted by mark270wsm

i have been told that if i show up with a hunter safety certificate from another province or state I can not be turned down for challenging the hunters exam in ontario

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All those reams of posts, and that's your update?

No one disputed that in the first place. It is a well known part of the regs.

You however have not indicated that you indeed were able to obtain a hunter safety certificate from out of province, which seemed to be the crux of your argument.....and thus far, you have not obtained one I take it?

Seems to be your initial rant, and complaint were simply academic since you began this thread in Aug, and we're now 6 months out from that, yet no Ontario license yet?

No the crux of my argument was the cost and it being available online in a lot of places but we are held hostage here in ontario

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Originally Posted by Bluebulldog

Being ex-army as well, I was already familiar with firearms, and things like trigger discipline.

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Funny you mention ex military making you familiar. I did mine a bit ago.. In the same class there was a current military member.. (Nearing end) was going to get restricted for a job path.. Anyways.. Thus guy had no idea about guns.. He did not know how to release an action on a Mossberg 500... Or how to put a lever in 1/2 .. He did however understand the semis.. And safety..
I had always assumed the military got basic training in all weapons.. But I guess I'm wrong.. Or maybe trainkng is not what it used to be?

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Originally Posted by topher

I had always assumed the military got basic training in all weapons.. But I guess I'm wrong.. Or maybe trainkng is not what it used to be?

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Why would they train the military on hunting guns ? .....they only train on them on their 'weapons'...two different beasts.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Why would they train the military on hunting guns ? .....they only train on them on their 'weapons'...two different beasts.

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Understand they are two different beasts.. But you woukd figure a pump action some one would know...

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Originally Posted by topher

Funny you mention ex military making you familiar. I did mine a bit ago.. In the same class there was a current military member.. (Nearing end) was going to get restricted for a job path.. Anyways.. Thus guy had no idea about guns.. He did not know how to release an action on a Mossberg 500... Or how to put a lever in 1/2 .. He did however understand the semis.. And safety..
I had always assumed the military got basic training in all weapons.. But I guess I'm wrong.. Or maybe trainkng is not what it used to be?

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It depends on what part of the military.

Combat arms, lots of exposure to weapons pistol, service rifle C7, LMG C9, med MG C6 etc. ( obviously not sporting arms). Other trades, yearly draw of service rifle out of the Q and go qualify.

i grew up around guns, and knew about their operation long before I ever wore green jammies. Where the military experience came in was being familiar with guns, safety, etc.

There are a lot of folks that go for their PAL and their HSC who have never held a gun in their lives.....

Wow this is a bit of a dog fight....anyway regardless of where this has gone I think Mark's idea of making it more affordable is a good one.

I don't take issue with the cost so much for myself as for young people and I have no issue with instructors making money giving the course as I don't believe an online course can provide what an actual person can nor does a computer recognize if someone needs extra help or is unsafe handling a weapon. I would like to see a special rate / discount / incentive for apprentice hunters or other young people, even special rates for organizations that work with young people (ex. big brothers) this would not benefit me but may benefit the sport - possibly the MNR could waive or subsidize materials for kids. I know there are lots of smart people on here who could provide good ideas to lower the cost for kids. One business that is helping new hunters get started is Ellwood Epps on Hwy 11 N in Orillia who give recent graduates a free hunting knife in recognition of their accomplishment (kudos Epps). I know that there are other businesses and organizations helping youth getting started and getting kids out hunting and you have my thanks.

I would like to thank all those men/women like Genec that make the time and give of themselves to be instructors and provide this great service, I'm sure my wife and son would also thank you (they still talk about their instructor Dino out of Barrie - being over 30 years ago now I no longer remember my instructors' name only that his insight and encouragement helped a lot).

Just one last thing - encourage others to enjoy our great outdoors, help get a friend out hunting, mentor or sponsor a youth...just my 2c...FB

You are complaining for 300$ for one in your life time exam!!! Well, you better not hunting at all and buy your meat at the grocery store, a lot cheaper....

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Originally Posted by seabast

You are complaining for 300$ for one in your life time exam!!! Well, you better not hunting at all and buy your meat at the grocery store, a lot cheaper....

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Give me 300 bucks then why pay for something when it should be around 50 and that is top dollar

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Originally Posted by mark270wsm

Give me 300 bucks then why pay for something when it should be around 50 and that is top dollar

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I just want to chime in on this. My son just took the course for his minors POL. $50 would have worked out to less than $4.00/hr for the examiner to teach and examine. That does not include the cost of the book, any visual aids, rental of the hall etc. Your $50.00 would work out to a monetary loss for the examiner. Give your head a shake buddy. I have no problem with the costs involved. It was money well spent IMO

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Originally Posted by M_P

Your $50.00 would work out to a monetary loss for the examiner. Give your head a shake buddy.

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you tell him !! :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by mark270wsm

Give me 300 bucks then why pay for something when it should be around 50 and that is top dollar

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Compared to where? You conveniently highlighted New Brunswick as an example, where the course, and exam is put on by their MNR.

Big difference. If you think the cost of a provincially paid staffer is less than a private HSC instructor, give your head a shake. One province subsidizes it, others do not. You talk about open market pricing, and rant about price fixing, and then conveniently use a province where the course is done by the Govt. subsidized by the taxpayer.....have you ever heard the expression " you can't suck and blow at the same time"?

If the one time fee of $300 is too steep for a lifetime worth of hunting and shooting, then don't bother. As an FYI, I spend more than that in ammo each year.....

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Originally Posted by seabast

You are complaining for 300$ for one in your life time exam!!! Well, you better not hunting at all and buy your meat at the grocery store, a lot cheaper....

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ya he is complaining that other provinces have the opportunity to do this on- line.... Not FORCED to take the course... If you want to do on- line with a in person exam then I am a believer that this can work and bring more hunters to the sport...

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Originally Posted by grizzlygreig

ya he is complaining that other provinces have the opportunity to do this on- line.... Not FORCED to take the course... If you want to do on- line with a in person exam then I am a believer that this can work and bring more hunters to the sport...

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How many people were shot during the controlled deer hunts in Ontario this past fall? I am all in favour of mandatory safety courses for firearms possession and for your hunting licence.

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Originally Posted by M_P

How many people were shot during the controlled deer hunts in Ontario this past fall? I am all in favour of mandatory safety courses for firearms possession and for your hunting licence.

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not sure how many?.... Does this have anything to do with it being a on-line course?... Or how much they paid for it?... Anyhow IMO that this can and will eventually come to ontario.... IMHO!...

I dont think he really wants a hunting liscence LOL

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Originally Posted by M_P

How many people were shot during the controlled deer hunts in Ontario this past fall? I am all in favour of mandatory safety courses for firearms possession and for your hunting licence.

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I read there was 6 ppl injured due to fire arms in ALL OF ONTARIO during deer season..

I paid $280 in 2005 for the one stop Hunters ed (courses & tests). Even with a full class (I think was 10 people maybe 12) after the guy pays all his expenses, can't see them making that much money.

If anyone really thinks this is a profitable business then maybe they should go be an instructor and teach the OHEP course.

Ha..our Camp just spent $300 to turn the stew meat from our 3 deer into pepperettes...not a single guy complained !! :)

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Ha..our Camp just spent $300 to turn the stew meat from our 3 deer into pepperettes...not a single guy complained !! :)

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would you have complained if you payed 1500 and the guy down the street got the same thing for 300?...

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Originally Posted by M_P

I just want to chime in on this. My son just took the course for his minors POL. $50 would have worked out to less than $4.00/hr for the examiner to teach and examine. That does not include the cost of the book, any visual aids, rental of the hall etc. Your $50.00 would work out to a monetary loss for the examiner. Give your head a shake buddy. I have no problem with the costs involved. It was money well spent IMO

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I am shaking my head profusly for two reasons 1. your math skills are amazing! 2. Your comment on them only making 4 dollars a hour, you forgot to include the other 20,30 students 4 dollars a hour in your conversation. I sure hope your other half pays the bills and checks your pay check. Its not the point of the money its the whole issue of why we can not do this online and do it cheaper, I suppose you like to pay high taxes for nothing, These other provinces and states have been doing it for years. Why do we allow it to happen ?

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Originally Posted by grizzlygreig

would you have complained if you payed 1500 and the guy down the street got the same thing for 300?...

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Would be his fault for not doing his homework..

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Originally Posted by grizzlygreig

would you have complained if you payed 1500 and the guy down the street got the same thing for 300?...

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Poor analogy.

The guy down the street is paying the same as everyone else. The guy in another province may be paying something different...

The big picture is what needs to be put in perspective, not what one little fee covers. What do tags cost? How many programs do they run? Do you have as many hunting opportunities in New Brunswick? No, you don't. Same story in some other provinces. I've used NB as the example, since it was the example used by the OP.

How a province manages it's wildlife, and the costs associated with it, are a provincial matter. Using the example marl270wsm used as New Brunswick.....government subsidized, and they have nowhere near the area of management like Ontario does. Or do you ever flip the road map over, and see that Northern ON is bigger in area than the South?

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Originally Posted by grizzlygreig

not sure how many?.... Does this have anything to do with it being a on-line course?... Or how much they paid for it?... Anyhow IMO that this can and will eventually come to ontario.... IMHO!...

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Sure does. With an online course there is no guarantee that you have had the mandatory hours of instruction and I don't feel that you would get the same level of education.

[QUOTE=Bluebulldog;762216]Poor analogy.

The guy down the street is paying the same as everyone else. The guy in another province may be paying something different...

The big picture is what needs to be put in perspective, not what one little fee covers.
the big picture is that the same safety and hunting course has the same info as we get... Not talking tags or where you go hunting!... So you are saying a N.B safety course is not as good as ours?... Likewise with the hunting course?
Why should we pay more for the same thing?... Or at least an option to do it the same as other parts of Canada?.. Should be able to choose if we want to take it from an instructor or like other provinces on-line... If all the instructors said next week we will be all charging 1000 a head without an option to do it cheaper would that still be cool with you?

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Originally Posted by M_P

Sure does. With an online course there is no guarantee that you have had the mandatory hours of instruction and I don't feel that you would get the same level of education.

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a mandatory test with a examiner giving it... They pass or they don't.... Being in a class doesn't mean you are learning it..the test is what it's all boils down too.

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Originally Posted by topher

Would be his fault for not doing his homework..

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the op did his homework and found that in ontario you have no other options but to be at the mercy of what the instructors want to charge...

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Originally Posted by M_P

Sure does. With an online course there is no guarantee that you have had the mandatory hours of instruction and I don't feel that you would get the same level of education.

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Once again i am shaking my head..... like i said my daughter took the course years ago and there was more story telling just like in the turkey course then there was Guaranteed mandatory hours of instruction . Some of you people need to step outside and really see what is going on

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Originally Posted by grizzlygreig

the op did his homework and found that in ontario you have no other options but to be at the mercy of what the instructors want to charge...

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its not the instructors that tell you what to charge there is a laid out minimum and a maximum

And I already have my license... No skin off my ... But for the future hunters I think a alternative to having to pay top dollar in ontario over other options is wrong... It's like the instructors are cornering the market so to speak...

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Originally Posted by mark270wsm

I am shaking my head profusly for two reasons 1. your math skills are amazing! 2. Your comment on them only making 4 dollars a hour, you forgot to include the other 20,30 students 4 dollars a hour in your conversation. I sure hope your other half pays the bills and checks your pay check. Its not the point of the money its the whole issue of why we can not do this online and do it cheaper, I suppose you like to pay high taxes for nothing, These other provinces and states have been doing it for years. Why do we allow it to happen ?

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$50 x 20 students less $15/student for the manual = $700
Factor in insurance, hall rental, his licencing costs, materials, guns, dummy ammo, coffee for the class which this guy was kind enough to supply, etc etc etc = not a whole lot for Mr. Instructor at the end of the day.
So while maybe not a loss, this would equate to very little payment for services rendered by the instructor.

why can't they have the book online(almost every kid has a laptop or a smart phone or a tablet ) ... share the books... nope EVERY student must buy a new book that is crap as well.. i forgot about that part .. thanks for bringing that up

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mark270wsm

why can't they have the book online(almost every kid has a laptop or a smart phone or a tablet ) ... share the books... nope EVERY student must buy a new book that is crap as well.. i forgot about that part .. thanks for bringing that up

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I'm with you there. I don't know why they don't offer it electronically, as the Province seems to be pushing green initiatives. I'm sure the instructors, regardless of fees, would appreciate not having to keep cases of the darn things around either.

I'm all for an online version of the course. Provided there is an in person exam, performed by qualified examiner.

The fees for it.....well we've already flogged that horse.

They don't offer it electronically because people would not make as much money lets face it "ITs all about money "

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Originally Posted by mark270wsm

They don't offer it electronically because people would not make as much money lets face it "ITs all about money "

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No ITs not about the money it's to stop it from being like the boaters exam EVERYBODY PASSES

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Originally Posted by mark270wsm

"ITs all about money "

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yes Mark ...we conceed "it's all about the money"...as an adult we just learn to accept that truth and move on.

So the instructors arent just doing it out of the goodness of their hearts?

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Originally Posted by mox72

So the instructors arent just doing it out of the goodness of their hearts?

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I sure sounds like some on here think they should....how quaint is that ? :)

Pretty sure the ones against on-line course are the ones that are running courses... And don't want competition taking away the little bit of "change" left over from them running a class...

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Originally Posted by MikePal

I sure sounds like some on here think they should....how quaint is that ? :)

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NEVER SAID THAT >>>>I SAID GET RID OF THEM ALL AND DO IT ON LINE .Now that is what I said . and yes i am hunting :)

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Originally Posted by mark270wsm

NEVER SAID THAT >>>>I SAID GET RID OF THEM ALL AND DO IT ON LINE .Now that is what I said . and yes i am hunting :)

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I think online should be an option, but let's be frank here. There are a number of people doing the course, both PAL, and HSC that are not of the younger generation. You seem to be coming at this with the perspective that most new hunters are in their teens and early 20s, that is not the case. I have a few friends who are in their 50s who organized an instructor to do the weekend course last year.

There needs to be, at least for the foreseeable future, an in class option, for older people, and for those people who quite simply do not benefit from a course offered online.

I am leery of the fact that it could very well wind up like the boaters course.....which I don't think I'd be too keen on when it involves firearms.

They should make the courses available in all highschool's across.the province.

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Originally Posted by Bluebulldog

I think online should be an option, but let's be frank here. There are a number of people doing the course, both PAL, and HSC that are not of the younger generation. You seem to be coming at this with the perspective that most new hunters are in their teens and early 20s, that is not the case. I have a few friends who are in their 50s who organized an instructor to do the weekend course last year.

There needs to be, at least for the foreseeable future, an in class option, for older people, and for those people who quite simply do not benefit from a course offered online.

I am leery of the fact that it could very well wind up like the boaters course.....which I don't think I'd be too keen on when it involves firearms.

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there are 5 provinces and a large number of usa doing it online ... seems to be running smooth

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Originally Posted by mark270wsm

there are 5 provinces and a large number of usa doing it online ... seems to be running smooth

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Those Provjnces aren't full if idiots. Look at who Ontario voted in the last 10 years would u trust them in the bush?

[QUOTE=Bluebulldog;

I am leery of the fact that it could very well wind up like the boaters course.....which I don't think I'd be too keen on when it involves firearms.[/QUOTE]
I agree ... It could be eliminated with a in-person test ....