Hello Guys,
I had to delete the contents of my first post due to the excessive format problems that I had.
Jerome
Printable View
Hello Guys,
I had to delete the contents of my first post due to the excessive format problems that I had.
Jerome
Hello Guys,
I have sent the enclosed document package to:
Mr. B. Blackwell, President, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
Mr. A. Lombardo, Executive Director, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
Mr. G. Farrant, Head of Government Relations, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
Dr. T. Quinney, Wildlife Biologist, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
Mr. B. Moore, Chairman of Zone J, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
Dr. T. Nudds, Chairman of the Scientific Advisory Committee, Long Point Waterfowl
Dr. M. Schummer, Scientist, Long Point Waterfowl
Mr. T. Barney, Biologist, Long Point Waterfowl
Mr. G. Dunn, Communications Manager, Long Point Waterfowl
Mr. J. Malcolm, President, Long Point Waterfowlers Association
Mr. A. Freitag, Secretary, Long Point Waterfowlers Association
I have also sent a document package with a different cover letter to:
Dr. F. Rohwer, President, Delta Waterfowl Foundation
Mr. J. Scarth, Senior Vice-President of Policy, Delta Waterfowl Foundation
Mr. R. Donnelly, Regional Director - Eastern Canada, Delta Waterfowl Foundation
I have also sent a document package with a different cover letter to:
Mr. M. Dunfield, President, Ducks Unlimited Canada
Mr. T. Worden, Chairman of the Board, Ducks Unlimited Canada
Ms. J. Richert Hache, Planned Giving Manager, Ducks Unlimited Canada
The contents of the enclosed documentation package is self explanatory.
I understand that the two (EP & WP) Tundra Swan populations currently have over 100,000 birds each for a continental total of about 210,000 birds ... way over their management goals.
Financial funding from The Dr. Jerome Katchin Waterfowl Foundation to organizations that support "waterfowling" will be available starting at the end of this year as explained in my letters.
Hopefully we can count on your support.
Jerome
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
798 Highway 59, RR 3
Port Rowan, Ontario
N0E 1M0
March 12, 2014
Mr. B. Blackwell
President
Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
P.O. Box 2800
Peterborough, Ontario
K9J 8L5
Re: Proposal for a Tundra Swan Recreational Harvest in the Province of Ontario
Dear Mr. B. Blackwell:
Further to my rather extensive letter of May 13, 2012 regarding my Proposal for a Tundra Swan Recreational Harvest in the Province of Ontario (that included copies of supporting documentation) and the National Fish & Wildlife Conservation Congress that was held in Ottawa from May 27 to May 31, 2012 (to which the courtesy of a reply was never received) I am writing in response to several comments that you have made in letters to the general OFAH membership.
Some of these comments that you have made could apply to my Proposal for a Tundra Swan Recreational Harvest in the Province of Ontario as illustrated below:
1) A comment of "congratulations for not tolerating complacency" could be in reference to those of us who are not satisfied with the OFAH having "simply settled for the status quo" when it comes to waterfowling ... the hunting of ducks and geese but not swans. Since the word "waterfowl" includes ducks, geese and swans the OFAH has not been and is not being inclusive when it comes to waterfowling.
2) A comment of "members like you who are not prepared to sit idly by in the political wake" could be in reference to those of us who believe that an Ontario Tundra Swan Season is long overdue.
3) A comment of "we also hold the decision makers accountable for trumping science with politics" could again be in reference to those of us who believe that an Ontario Tundra Swan Season is long overdue.
4) A comment of "we simply never back down" however certainly does not apply as it would appear that the OFAH "decision makers" do not want to stand up for the rights of waterfowlers to be able to participate in the North American Tundra Swan Harvest provided for in the Management Plan for the Eastern Population of Tundra Swans.
I understand that the two (2) main concerns resulting in this OFAH position are:
1) A perception that there does not seem to be a demand for an Ontario Tundra Swan Season among large numbers of waterfowlers.
2) A perception (fear) that hunting swans could result in loss of support for hunting in general and increased anti-hunting sentiment.
In response to these two (2) main concerns please consider that:
1) Less than 10,000 waterfowlers out of a total of about 970,000 waterfowlers in the United States will apply for an Eastern Population Tundra Swan tag and hunt Tundra Swans in any given year (that is why they call it a "limited" harvest). About another 5,000 waterfowlers will hunt the Western Population of Tundra Swans.
2) This fear is anticipated, hypothetical, speculative and unfounded in nature since there has been no study or survey to support this fear. Furthermore under the Management Plan for the Eastern Population of Tundra Swans the Canadian Wildlife Service (CWS) would be responsible for conducting "public consultations" between the time that they apply for an Ontario Tundra Swan Season (the deadline is August the year before the start of the first season) and the start of the first season.
I have enclosed a Tundra Swan Fact Sheet that I prepared based upon 2010 data and three (3) letters for your reference.
My letter of August 15, 2013 to Waterfowl Hunters was posted on the Hunt Ontario and the Long Point Waterfowlers' Association (LPWA) "waterfowl" forums and provided Ontario waterfowlers with a general synopsis of what has happened since January of 2010.
My letter of March 01, 2014 to Mr. J. Hughes (Head of Population Management, CWS) provided an update of the financial status of The Dr. Jerome Katchin Waterfowl Foundation and the funds that will be available at the end of this year and in subsequent years.
My letter of March 02, 2014 to Mr. J. Hughes advised him of my intention to start a Tundra Swan Hunters Association and the reasons for that decision.
I thank you for taking the time to review the contents of these letters.
Sincerely,
J. Katchin, D.V.M.
c.c.
Mr. A. Lombardo, Executive Director, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
Mr. G. Farrant, Head of Government Relations, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
Dr. T. Quinney, Wildlife Biologist, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
Mr. B. Moore, Chairman of Zone J, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
Mr. J. Malcolm, President, Long Point Waterfowlers Association
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tundra Swan Fact Sheet 2010
The continental Tundra Swan population of North America is divided into two (2) populations.
The Eastern Population (EP) Tundra Swan (TUSW) numbers are 100,000 or 25% above the Management Plan goal of 80,000.
The Western Population (WP) Tundra Swan (TUSW) numbers are 80,000 or 33% above the Management Plan goal of 60,000.
The EP TUSW recreational international (Canada and the United States) harvest is currently set at 4800 birds and therefore a total of 9600 permits (based upon an estimated 50% harvest rate) are issued. The actual EP TUSW harvest rate in the United States is only about 37%.
Since there is currently no recreational EP TUSW harvest in Canada all 9600 permits are available to hunters in the United States. The Americans get their 59% of the 9600 permits as well as our 41% of the 9600 permits.
The native people in Canada already have their own "subsistence" harvest for both EP TUSW and WP TUSW which is now (since 1995) year round (spring migration, summer nesting and fall migration) with no bag limits.
Furthermore ... the native people of Canada may harvest the Trumpeter Swan (TRSW) as well.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
798 Highway 59, RR 3
Port Rowan, Ontario
N0E 1M0
August 15, 2013
Re: Canadian Wildlife Service Tundra Swan Season Assessment
Dear Waterfowl Hunters:
I am writing to you to share with you the good news that I received earlier this week from the Canadian Wildlife Service (CWS) regarding their recently completed Tundra Swan Season Assessment which appears to be very supportive of my Tundra Swan proposal.
Many of you will remember that I submitted my Proposal for a Tundra Swan Recreational Harvest in the Province of Ontario to Mr. J. Hughes (Head of Population Management, CWS) in October of 2010 and requested that my proposal be an agenda item at the next Ontario Waterfowl Advisory Committee (OWAC) meeting to be held in November of 2010.
Although my Proposal for a Tundra Swan Recreational Harvest in the Province of Ontario did not receive general support from the participating parties involved it was nevertheless discussed at that OWAC meeting ... the beginning of a long journey.
Following that OWAC discussion I established The Dr. Jerome Katchin Waterfowl Foundation with the Charitable Gift Funds Canada Foundation (CGFCF) in December of 2010 through RBC Dominion Securities in order to financially support the eventual implementation and monitoring of a limited (tag only) Tundra Swan harvest in the provinces of Ontario, Manitoba and Saskatchewan.
I then contacted Delta Waterfowl early in 2011 to inquire if they would be willing to support my Tundra Swan proposal. Although Delta Waterfowl did express some interest in my Tundra Swan proposal they eventually decided that my proposal was premature at that time.
Additional supportive documentation for my Tundra Swan proposal was submitted to the CWS as I was conducting my discussions with Delta Waterfowl. Much of this additional supportive documentation was included in a Tundra Swan presentation package that I posted on both the Long Point Waterfowlers Association (LPWA) and the Hunt Ontario (OOD) waterfowl forums seeking support from fellow waterfowl hunters ... specifically requesting that they submit letters of support for my Tundra Swan proposal.
I also delivered my Tundra Swan presentation to the members of the LPWA at our Annual General Meeting in April of 2011 at which time it was announced by a Long Point Waterfowl scientist that the CWS would be conducting a Tundra Swan Season Assessment. I had received an e-mail (sent to me by another waterfowl scientist) earlier that morning advising me of the same news. I subsequently contacted Mr. J. Hughes and he confirmed that the CWS would be conducting a Tundra Swan Season Assessment as well as providing me with the name of the waterfowl scientist who would be conducting the assessment should I require further information.
The members of the LPWA attending the Annual General Meeting in April of 2011 had an opportunity to review the information regarding my Tundra Swan proposal that was contained within the handout notes and complete a survey that was included with the handout notes. The number of completed surveys returned to me (at the meeting or subsequently by either hand or mail) indicated a 20% response rate (apparently double what can normally be expected with such a survey) and the contents of the completed surveys indicated that approximately 85% of the respondents were supportive of my Tundra Swan proposal with the remaining 15% either interested or partially supportive of it.
It should be noted that I contacted Ducks Unlimited Canada later in 2011 to inquire if they would be interested in supporting my Tundra Swan proposal. However Ducks Unlimited Canada, having a mandate for waterfowl habitat conservation, was unable to support my Tundra Swan proposal for that reason.
Although the CWS Tundra Swan Season Assessment was completed earlier this spring a departmental review of it was required prior to it being made available to the public. I was informed earlier this week that the departmental review had been completed and I was provided with a copy of the assessment.
I received permission from the CWS waterfowl scientist yesterday that I could distribute the Tundra Swan Season Assessment to interested individuals ... including within these electronic waterfowl forums.
In closing I would like to take this opportunity to thank those waterfowl hunters who supported me and my Tundra Swan proposal ... specifically those (including at least one American waterfowl hunter) who submitted letters of support to the CWS as this made a significant difference.
Sincerely,
J. Katchin, D.V.M.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
798 Highway 59, RR 3
Port Rowan, Ontario
N0E 1M0
March 01, 2014
Mr. J. Hughes
Head of Population Management
Canadian Wildlife Service
Environment Canada
335 River Road
Ottawa, Ontario
K1A 0H3
Re: Proposal for a Tundra Swan Recreational Harvest in the Province of Ontario
Dear Mr. J. Hughes:
Further to my letter March 30, 2011 the purpose of this letter is to advise you of the current financial status of The Dr. Jerome Katchin Waterfowl Foundation as of December 31, 2013 as well as to confirm the funds that will be available to the Canadian Wildlife Service (CWS) at the end of 2014 and annually thereafter to the end of 2034.
I included a statement in my letter of March 30, 2011 indicating that I had committed sufficient funds to my foundation over a four (4) year period (2010 to 2013) to reasonably assure that $1,000.00 will be available at the end of 2011, $2,000.00 will be available at the end of 2012, $3,000.00 will be available at the end of 2013 and $4,000.00 will be available at the end of 2014 for a total of $10,000.00 for the implementation of a Tundra Swan Recreational Harvest in the Province of Ontario.
A review of my foundation's "Year End Fund Activity Report" (copy enclosed) will show that $6,166.00 was available as of December 31, 2013 ($166.00 more than anticipated) confirming that my previously projected financial level of support to the Canadian Wildlife Service was accurate.
Furthermore I have included a copy of "2013 Year End - Classic Charitable Gift Fund Program" from Giftfunds Canada that you may find of interest.
Consequently there is no doubt that the $10,000.00 that I had originally pledged to the Canadian Wildlife Service for the implementation of a Tundra Swan Recreational Harvest in the Province of Ontario will be available at the end of 2014.
Furthermore there is no doubt that the additional $4,000.00 per year that I had originally pledged to the Canadian Wildlife Service for the monitoring of a Tundra Swan Recreational Harvest in the Province of Ontario will be available at the end of 2015 and annually thereafter to the end of 2034 for a total of twenty (20) years.
My additional two (2) pledges of $5,000.00 for the implementation of a Tundra Swan Recreational Harvest in the Provinces of Manitoba and Saskatchewan will be addressed in a subsequent letter as an additional (projected) $1,000.00 will be available at the end of 2015, $2,000.00 at the end of 2016, $3,000.00 at the end of 2017, $4,000.00 at the end of 2018, $5,000.00 at the end of 2019 and $6,000.00 at the end of 2020 for a total of $21,000.00 then continuing at $6,000.00 per year in perpetuity based upon Part 1 of the Financial Plan for The Dr. Jerome Katchin Waterfowl Foundation. I will disclose Part 2 of the Financial Plan to you and other interested parties at a later date.
Considering that we are currently in a position whereby we could potentially have a limited (tag only) Tundra Swan Recreational Harvest in the Province of Ontario as early as the fall of 2015 (as I had originally envisaged) it behooves all interested parties to work together and seize this opportunity to reintroduce Ontario waterfowlers to Tundra Swan hunting.
I have documented in a previous letter that the Tundra Swan (a migratory game bird) had been hunted in Ontario from 1615 to 1918 ... over three hundred years ... prior to being "protected" due to unregulated overhunting. The Management Plan for the Eastern Population of Tundra Swans is based upon science and a current Tundra Swan population that can now sustain a limited (tag only) annual harvest.
The recently completed CWS Tundra Swan Season Assessment has confirmed what we need to know prior to the CWS applying for a Tundra Swan Recreational Harvest in the Provinces of Ontario, Manitoba and Saskatchewan.
Please forward copies of this letter with the supporting documentation to the other OWAC members (not included in the cc list) as I do not have their contact information.
I would like to thank you for your continued support of my proposal.
Sincerely,
J. Katchin, D.V.M.
PS I have received a request from Dr. S. Petrie (Executive Director, Long Point Waterfowl) not to include his name within the c.c list of my letters regarding this topic.
c.c.
Dr. F. Rohwer, President, Delta Waterfowl Foundation
Mr. J. Scarth, Senior Vice President of Policy, Delta Waterfowl Foundation
Mr. R. Donnelly, Regional Director - Eastern Canada, Delta Waterfowl Foundation
Mr. T. Worden, Chairman of the Board, Ducks Unlimited Canada
Mr. M. Dunfield, President, Ducks Unlimited Canada
Dr. T. Nudds, Chairman of the Scientific Advisory Committee, Long Point Waterfowl
Dr. M. Schummer, Scientist, Long Point Waterfowl
Mr. B. Blackwell, President, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
Mr. G. Farrant, Head of Government Relations, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
Dr. T. Quinney, Head of Fish and Wildlife Programs, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
Mr. B. Moore, Chairman of Zone J, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
Mr. J. Malcolm, President, Long Point Waterfowlers Association
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
798 Highway 59, RR 3
Port Rowan, Ontario
N0E 1M0
March 02, 2014
Mr. J. Hughes
Head of Population Management
Canadian Wildlife Service
Environment Canada
335 River Road
Ottawa, Ontario
K1A 0H3
Re: Proposal for a Tundra Swan Recreational Harvest in the Province of Ontario
Dear Mr. J. Hughes:
Further to my letter March 31, 2011 the purpose of this letter is to advise you of my intention to start a Tundra Swan Hunters Association for waterfowlers who have hunted Tundra Swans in the past, are hunting Tundra Swans currently or would like to hunt Tundra Swans in the future and would like to share their past experiences, current hunts or future ideas.
There was apparently substantial interest among waterfowlers in my Proposal for a Tundra Swan Recreational Harvest in the Province of Ontario based upon what I had conveyed to you in my letter of March 31, 2011 with a few individuals even writing to you in support of a limited Tundra Swan harvest.
In my letter of February 12, 2014 to Mr. R. Donnelly (Regional Director - Eastern Canada, Delta Waterfowl Foundation) I documented the results (previously conveyed to you and others) of a small survey that I had conducted with the members of the Long Point Waterfowlers' Association (LPWA) at our AGM in the spring of 2011 that resulted in a 20% response rate (twice the industry average) indicating an 85% level of support with the remaining 15% conditionally or partially supporting my Proposal for a Tundra Swan Recreational Harvest in the Province of Ontario.
This level of interest has continued based upon the response that I have monitored since August 15, 2013 when I posted the CWS Tundra Swan Season Assessment on the Hunt Ontario (OFAH) waterfowl web site and the Long Point Waterfowlers' Association (LPWA) waterfowl web site.
Of particular interest was the response that I have observed on the LPWA waterfowl web site. My last post (Post # 9) was on October 05, 2013 when there had been a total of 489 viewings. By December 30, 2013 there had been a total of 974 viewings with no additional postings indicating that 485 individuals had viewed my last post ... unless some individuals went back to review my last post again.
In spite of this level of interest among Ontario waterfowlers in potentially having a Tundra Swan Recreational Harvest in the Province of Ontario I have received correspondence from both Dr. S. Petrie (Executive Director, LPW) and Mr. J. Greenwood (Chairman of Zone J, OFAH) stating that the OFAH Board of Directors is not interested in supporting a Tundra Swan Recreational Harvest in the Province of Ontario.
I have also received correspondence from Mr. J. Malcolm (President, LPWA) indicating that the LPWA Board of Directors is not interested in supporting a Tundra Swan Recreational Harvest in the Province of Ontario however my request to have "A Tundra Swan Season In Ontario" as an agenda item has been accepted by the LPWA Board of Directors for discussion at our Annual General Meeting next month ... something that Mr. J. Greenwood would not permit at the OFAH Zone J Annual General Meeting next month ... something to consider.
Consequently this is to advise you that I no longer believe that the OFAH represents my interests as a "waterfowler" ... an individual who hunts "waterfowl". The last time that I checked the term "waterfowl" included ducks, geese and swans.
I am prepared to personally cover the cost of starting this new Tundra Swan Hunters Association as membership will be free but I will encourage members to submit an e-mail or a letter to the CWS indicating their support for a Tundra Swan Recreational Harvest in the Provinces of Ontario, Manitoba and Saskatchewan. Please advise me if these e-mails and letters should be submitted to you or someone else.
Finally I am also prepared to personally reimburse one hundred (100) individuals who submit an e-mail or letter of support to the CWS (copy to me) for the cost of a Tundra Swan tag (maximum of $20.00 per tag) once they become available. In other words ... I am prepared to personally guarantee that the CWS will sell one hundred (100) Tundra Swan tags the first year that a Tundra Swan Recreational Harvest is implemented in the Province of Ontario.
I trust that this offer will meet with your approval and that of your staff.
Please forward copies of this letter to the other OWAC members (not included in the cc list) as I do not have their contact information.
I would like to thank you for your continued support of my proposal.
Sincerely,
J. Katchin, D.V.M.
PS I have received a request from Dr. S. Petrie (Executive Director, Long Point Waterfowl) not to include his name within the c.c list of my letters regarding this topic.
c.c.
Dr. F. Rohwer, President, Delta Waterfowl Foundation
Mr. J. Scarth, Senior Vice President of Policy, Delta Waterfowl Foundation
Mr. R. Donnelly, Regional Director - Eastern Canada, Delta Waterfowl Foundation
Mr. T. Worden, Chairman of the Board, Ducks Unlimited Canada
Mr. M. Dunfield, President, Ducks Unlimited Canada
Dr. T. Nudds, Chairman of the Scientific Advisory Committee, Long Point Waterfowl
Dr. M. Schummer, Scientist, Long Point Waterfowl
Mr. B. Blackwell, President, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
Mr. G. Farrant, Head of Government Relations, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
Dr. T. Quinney, Head of Fish and Wildlife Programs, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
Mr. B. Moore, Chairman of Zone J, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
Mr. J. Malcolm, President, Long Point Waterfowlers Association
Good Day Buddy Boy. Hadn't seen you on here for awhile. Great to see your still at it to get a Swan harvest. I just cannot help think that it will never happen. But your doing a good job on behalf of hunters and I thank you for that.
Cheers
Hey Buddy Boy... long post, too long; but the one thing I saw repeated was the following comment "PS I have received a request from Dr. S. Petrie (Executive Director, Long Point Waterfowl) not to include his name within the c.c list of my letters regarding this topic."
Dr. Petrie is a very well known and respected waterfowl researcher in Canada, do you care to comment as to why he has requested that his name not be included in you letters?
Of course, by including all those respected names in your 'cc' list, the reader may assume that each and everyone one of them agree with your position, it that correct?
Sorry, but I have a quick question..
Separate from issues of the option/legality to hunt, is the swan meat edible?
Some articles in U.S. magazines have stated " unless you get a juvenile bird , the sausage is pretty tough "Quote:
Originally Posted by Pijetro
I still commend your enthusiasm, but certainly don't support your cause.
Why is everyone so against someone who is trying to do something for the sport of hunting?
Quote:
Originally Posted by diverduck
Someone should call Harry Lumsden and ask him what he thinks of a Whistler hunt ! Think of all the Trumpeters that would be shot. It takes a very good set of binocs/spotting scope, good lighting, and observation time to be able to separate the two species with any certainty. Both species pass through my area at the same time, twice per year. We see both species on Lake Ontario again during late diver season. A lot of the harvest would be Trumpeters. I don't see the sense in it. If CWS approves any swan hunting, it should be an immediate Mute cull, before we have nothing left breeding in any of our Ontario marshes.
what is so big about shooting a swan. i dont see the fun in it. they are a slow flying over sized bird. no challenge and i am sure if canada ever was to pass the law which i highly doubt you will only probably be allowed one per year.
i am in the southern ditstrict and we see maybe a dozen, we see more sandhill cranes in the fall. the spring you will see swans but not in huge numbers .
the most i have seen in a field was 40 swans and the is when the snow melts.
best of luck to ya i cant say i support the choice to even try and get a season but hope it works out for ya,
why? If the meat is not good , and tough, why kill them?
Seriously? As opposed to shooting Canadas? What's the difference? As waterfowlers, we should be supporting anything to further the sport. Can't say when the Dove season was proposed I felt that I'd ever have use for it, but that doesn't mean I was against it. That's counter intuitive if you ask me.Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo stick
Kyle, you obviously don't hunt the Lake very often if you haven't seen large numbers of Tundras.
-Nick
It seems like a high effort, low reward proposition to me. I think it's wise to pick and choose your battles and shooting swans for questionable quality meat only to rile up all the anti's doesn't seem worth it. I have enough of them questioning if it's legal for me to harvest geese..."isn't that Canada's National bird???"
Mike
As a reader of the above updates, the only thing that I assume by the cc names is that Jerome has been trying to keep all parties informed of the progress of the proposal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug
Thank you Jerome for keeping up the good fight on behalf of all waterfowl hunters.
I cant wait to be able to be able to take a few swans throughout the season mute or trumpeter. I dont believe that the meat would not be edible, as they have a similar diet to geese and puddlers.
People said they would have trouble with a dove hunt and trying to defend to anti's but I personally have not heard any issues. Plus you cant change an anti's viewpoint regardless, these same people will argue against hunting anything.
I commend your commitment and hope that this works out for us waterfowl hunters to have more opportunities to hunt more species like our neighbours to the south.
While not something I am personally interested in, or would partake in, I commend your efforts, and as a fellow hunter would have anyone's back in helping expand our opportunities as long as it is ethical and sustainable.
Like Nick said, I also have no interest / use for a Dove hunt, but I supported it.
Good luck.
Although I don't very often see tundra swans here in the fall we do see a good bunch in the spring pretty cool to watch. I would imagine having a flock setting into your decoy spread would be an amazing sight to see. I don't think there is any harm in a swan season and if there is interest why not. Good luck
My Sentiments exactly. Nicely said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprite
One thing I'll never say about you Jerome is that you lack perseverance.
Hello Guys,
A quick response to your comments:
1) Great White ... a Tundra Swan season will happen ... it is just a matter of time. In fact the USFWS is considering opening up more opportunities to hunt the eastern population (EP) of Tundra Swans that may include the legal harvesting of Trumpeter Swans as their population has nearly doubled every ten years over the last few decades ... more on this under my response to Fenelon. I thank you for your support.
2) Doug ... I agree that this was a long post but I actually made it as brief as I could without being too superficial. Dr. S. Petrie has a different opinion on this issue than I do and I have nothing bad to say about him ... some may agree with him and some may not agree with him. He was the one who suggested to me in January of 2010 to submit a proposal for a Mourning Dove harvest and then provided me with the supporting documentation in August to back up my Proposal for a Mourning Dove Harvest in the Province of Ontario (see my thread on this proposal) which the CWS, MNR, OFAH, Long Point Waterfowl, Delta Waterfowl Foundation and some other individuals supported.
Dr. S. Petrie and Dr. D. Ankney also provided me with some advice regarding the establishment of The Dr. Jerome Katchin Waterfowl Foundation in December of 2010. I personally support the research done by Long Point Waterfowl with an annual financial donation.
The official Long Point Waterfowl (LPW) position regarding my Tundra Swan proposal as expressed at the Long Point Waterfowlers' Association (LPWA) AGM in April of 2011 was "there is no scientific reason not to have a Tundra Swan season but there is no scientific reason to have a Tundra Swan season" ... consequently the LPW position at that time was to consider "socio-political" reasons. However no time was permitted to question the LPW statement at the LPWA AGM which resulted in a rather "heated" e-mail debate (I was in the cc list) after the meeting.
I would like to explain that the reason why "there is no scientific reason to have a Tundra Swan season" is because American waterfowlers have been doing a pretty good job of keeping the EP of Tundra Swans at just over 100,000 birds (still 25% over their management goal) by utilizing their 59% of the 9600 tags as well as our 41% of the 9600 tags currently available. One could argue that "there is no scientific reason to have a duck season" in Cananda because American waterfowlers could easily harvest another 10% to make up for the Canadian duck harvest ... get my point?
Finally nobody should assume what you have suggested ... being on a cc list has never meant that you either agree or disagree with the contents of a letter.
3) Pijetro ... we were told by a reputable wildlife biologist at the Long Point Waterfowlers' Association AGM several years ago that the meat is rather tasty ... especially if it is from a young bird. It is true that the older the bird the tougher the meat ... like any other animal.
4) Jaycee ... you are right but 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 year old birds are also good.
5) Diver Duck ... I am an enthusiastic "waterfowler" ... someone who hunts "waterfowl" and "waterfowl" includes ducks, geese and swans. So if you do not support swan hunting then you do not support "waterfowl" hunting ... just duck and goose hunting. That is my humble position.
6) Great White ... thanks again but I was told back in 2010 to expect more oppostion from "hunters" than from non-hunters.
7) Fenelon ... I have been in contact with The Trumpeter Swan Society regarding my Tundra Swan proposal and the CWS Tundra Swan Season Assessment (please read this thread). They are not opposed to Tundra Swan hunting and the actual incidental legal harvest of Trumpeter Swans (TRSW) is rather small. The current limit during the Western Population (WP) Tundra Swan season is 5 TRSW for Utah and 5 TRSW for Nevada with an annual average of only about 3 TRSW being taken in total for both states. The CWS Tundra Swan Season Assessment has indicated that the Trumpeter Swan population in this area of the continent has increased by 135% over the last five (5) years and is now sustainable.
Please remember that the native people of Canada may hunt Tundra Swans at anytime of the year without any bag limits and that policy also pertains to Trumpeter Swans. The CWS could have Long Point Waterfowl provide a course in "species recognition" prior to being issued a Tundra Swan tag to hunt in Ontario ... an option to consider.
As for the Mute Swan (MUSW) issue ... Dr. S. Petrie suggested to me in January of 2010 during my first meeting with him regarding a proposal for a Tundra Swan season to focus on the removal of the Mute Swan from the List of Protected Species. I subsequently (after reading all of the documentation that he had provided to me) submitted my Proposal to Removal the Mute Swan from the List of Protected Species (see my thread on this proposal). This proposal was supported by the Ontario Waterfowl Advisory Committee (OWAC) in November of 2010 and the CWS started to look into the idea. Last week I was informed by a Delta Waterfowl representative that the CWS and the MNR are currently in discussions regarding this proposal.
8) Mojo Stick ... the Tundra Swan harvest would be a limited (tag only) harvest just like the Wild Turkey harvest is. There are plenty of Tundra Swans from Long Point to Lake St. Claire and the season would probably not be open in areas or at times when Trumpeter Swans are migrating ... an option used in some states to reduce the potential incidental harvest of a Trumpeter Swan.
Have some patience and wait for a limited Sandhill Crane season in the future that I will financially support after we implement a Tundra Swan season.
9) Todd C ... an old bird will have tough meat like any other animal so take a young one (they will be whitish grey in colour) or an adult (all white) and cook it like a Canada Goose. I heard that the meat from Snow Geese is "worthless" but we hunt and eat them ... depends upon how you cook them.
10) Sprite ... I can always count on your "level headed" comments ... thank you for your support.
11) Mad Mike ... "high effort - low reward" sounds like you are talking about "waterfowling" to me and the meat is "tasty to tough" depending upon the age of the bird. Dr. S. Petrie has stated (Simcoe Reformer) that about 10% of non-hunters may object to a Tundra Swan season.
12) Prc Heinrichs ... you are exactly right ... I was keeping them informed and nothing more. Thank you for your support.
13) Bowj ... this would be a Tundra Swan (TUSW) season and not a general swan season. It would not include the Trumpeter Swan (TRSW) or the Mute Swan (MUSW). When (not if) the Mute Swan is eventually removed from the List of Protected Species there will not be a "season" for them as they will be treated like crows with no "season" and no limits. Thank you for your support.
I read an article in the OOD magazine that (according to Dr. S. Petrie) there was apparently only one letter opposing the proposed Mourning Dove season.
14) Turkey Rookie ... it would be an option that you would have. Thank you for your support.
15) Hard Core Ducks ... nice goose ... thank you for your support.
16) Great White ... that is why Delta Waterfowl supported the proposed Mourning Dove season.
17) Dead Ringer ... thank you.
I thank all of you for your comments and questions remembering that we may disagree on this sensitive issue.
Sincerely,
Jerome
Re: ""The current limit during the Western Population (WP) Tundra Swan season is 5 TRSW for Utah and 5 TRSW for Nevada with an annual average of only about 3 TRSW being taken in total for both states "
I have some swampland for sale if the Yanks think they've ever been able to monitor the actual percentage of killed birds that are Trumpeters. The data I've seen shows that as high as 19% of the Montanna hunt birds were Trumpeters, and the only reason these got reported was because they were cygnets (next to impossible to tell the two species apart when in flight/in an active hunting scenario, or even when in hand. The cygnet Tundras don't have lore spots). These birds got picked up on the postcard surveys because the hunters submitted cygnet bill lengths, thinking they had harvested Tundras. Separating an adult shot bird is easy once it's in hand (yellow lore spot on adult Tundras). Think how many adult Trumpeters got tossed back into the cattails when the hunter realizes that they've shot a protected bird. Only an idiot would surrender this info. on a postcard survey. Reminds me of the mandatory reporting that we had here for turkey. I can only imagine how many hen turkeys get harvested every spring. You sure won't see these showing up on any survey.
Re: "species recognition course"- this would be a joke! Good luck telling the two species apart, unless you have a vocal flock coming in to your decoys. You'd have to let them land, scope the adults with binocs, looking at head profile shape and presence/absence of lore spots, then you'd get to shoot the bird on the water. If you just had cygnets come in, then you might as well flip a coin to decide if you're going to shoot. I see the scenario being more like: "hunter gets swan tag. Hunter sets up in Presquille Bay or at Darlington in the dark with decoys....large white swan passes by in the trough of the swells, on the outside of the decoys....maybe 10 seconds to decide.....BANG....hunter notices in the blind that the bird doesn't have a yellow spot by its eye, and it has a yellow plastic tag with a black number on its wing.....Trumpeter gets to rot in the cattails.
The only thing positive that I see is that maybe some of the harvested adults are Mutes!
[QUOTE=Sprite;770176]Seriously? As opposed to shooting Canadas? What's the difference? As waterfowlers, we should be supporting anything to further the sport. Can't say when the Dove season was proposed I felt that I'd ever have use for it, but that doesn't mean I was against it. That's counter intuitive if you ask me.
Kyle, you obviously don't hunt the Lake very often if you haven't seen large numbers of Tundras.
Sprite
you hunts his area?
Last I checked no.
But you know right . Lol
all the the best to ya getting a season opened for swans . I would have to travel atleast and hour or more to kill one if the season were to open in Ontario and I highly doubt I would bother , doesn't seem appealing.
But hey good luck
Jerome,
Thank you for the response, and expressing both sides of the coin in an honest account. I met hardcoreducks this afternoon and this post was spoken about, we don't feel that we have enough of a fall fly through in our area; but support the objective if others are wanting to.
BTW, your response was long too!:rolleyes:
Doug
Sorry Kyle, I'm having a really hard time understanding your question.Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo stick
-Nick
Jerome,
Its great to see such an informed, Persistent, Dedicated Hunter working so hard for what a large portion of the waterfowling community only wishes they could do. Hats off to you "Buddy Boy".
Your well spoken responses above show your the right one for the job! I look forward to tasting some day, Tundra Swan and Sandhill Crane. When I do - I'll be thanking you alone, not the rest of the do-gooders, or nay-sayers!
Regards,
MC
I have eaten swans from those we harvested on our annual hunt to North Dakota. They are as good as any waterfowl. I slow roasted them until they fell off the bone and the meat was delectable. I was surprised, however, on the low volume of meat for their size compared to a goose.
We hunted them by decoying them to swan decoys over water and any serious waterfowler would have to agree on the adrenaline packed excitement of such an experience. They really are the big game of waterfowling. To add to the hunt we always put out Canvasback decoys since they feed on the same food and areas as the swans.
We should all hope to have the opportunity to harvest these birds in Ontario. Good to see they are on their way back Jerome.
Pat
Hello Guys,
A quick response to your comments:
1) Fenelon ... my understanding is that Montana does not have a quota for the incidental harvest of Trumpeter Swans during their western Tundra Swan season according to what I have recently read in The Management Plan for the Western Population of Tundra Swans. However the State of Montana has a Tundra Swan season for the Western Population of Tundra Swans as well as for the Eastern Population of Tundra Swans. It is also my understanding that the USFWS has a "general swan season" out west rather than a specific Tundra Swan season. Consequently the Trumpeter Swan is not a "protected" bird and hunters are not charged for the incidental harvest of one. This is my understanding and it would explain the level of compliance that they have with the hunting community. In any event the Trumpeter Swan population is contining to grow remarkably well.
Please read the "CWS Tundra Swan Season Assessment" (see my separate thread on this).
I believe that a "species recognition course" would help limit the incidental harvest of Trumpeter Swans but not eliminate the potential risk of an incidental harvest. This is in line with The Trumpeter Swan Society (TTSS) policy of not opposing the hunting of Tundra Swans. It is one way ... not the only way ... of limiting the incidental harvest of Trumpeter Swans.
Speaking of the incidental harvest of Trumpeter Swans I have recently been advised by a reputable source that many Tundra Swans (also Trumpeter Swans as per your arguement) are misidentified as Snow Geese and shot during the regular Ontario waterfowl season. Would you suggest that we terminate the Snow Goose season? How about when an inexperienced hunter (in the southern waterfowling district) shoots a second black duck early in the morning thinking that it was a hen mallard ... should we reduce the bag limit to just one duck to prevent this potential scenario from happening? There are other examples that I could present.
I am not attempting to deminish your concerns as they are valid ones but I believe that your presentation of them could have been more "what can we do to prevent this from happening". Are you open to ideas? Do you have suggestions on how a Tundra Swan season in Ontario could work?
As for the Mute Swan ... I have stated before that the CWS and the MNR are discussing removing the Mute Swan from the List of Protect Species. Dr. S. Petrie has suggested this for quite some time and I subsequently presented a proposal to do just that (see my separate thread on this).
2) Mojo Stick ... when I lived in Mississauga I had to drive 2 1/4 hours to get to either Presqu'ile or Long Point to hunt waterfowl. See my new thread "The Tundra Swans are Back at Long Point". Thank you for your support.
3) Doug ... thank you for your support.
4) Sprite ... see my new thread "The Tundra Swans are Back at Long Point".
5) Master Caster ... thank you for your kind words of encouragement and thank you for your support.
6) Grouse Guy ... thank you for confirming what I have heard about the taste of the meat. I do not believe however that you should have to travel to North Dakota to hunt Tundra Swans and that was my point from the onset with my Tundra Swan proposal. Dr. D. Ankney (Chairman of the Scientific Advisory Committee, Long Point Waterfowl) suggested to me back in 2011 that it would probably be easier and cheaper for me to drive to North Carolina to hunt Tundra Swans every year than to get a Tundra Swan season in Ontario but he told me in an e-mail (on file) that he would publically support my Tundra Swan proposal when the time was right. Unfortunately he died last year before the CWS Tundra Swan Season Assessment was completed.
I was told that Tundra Swan decoys are great "confidence" decoys for Canvasbacks and I now have them as part off my "diver decoys". I order them from Patrick at Canadian Waterfowl Supplies every year and donate four Tundra Swan decoys to the various waterfowl fund raisers .
Give me a call (519-586-9825) if you want to come over and photograph the Tundra Swans from my backyard when the ice melts. Please post some pictures on this thread of your Tundra Swan hunt and thank you for your support.
Thanks again to all of you for your interest.
Jerome
Jerome,
I think that the ID is much harder for Trumpeter vs Tundra and could justify a training requirement for the limited number of hunters who attain the permit. In parts of Australia, the WIC is required for all waterfowl hunters. I am not suggesting that the same be applied to all waterfowl hunters here (they have multiple waterfowl species of special concern to worry about), it would seem feasible to do a test/course/etc for the Tundra Swan hunters since their numbers will be limited. As you suggested, it won't eliminate incidental harvest, but any feasible effort to reduce it would seem like a good idea. Might put some detractors at ease.
John
Jerome:
The Montana data gives us a hint of how much higher the Trumpeter harvest is. The year with the 19% harvest meant that 169 Trumpeters were shot out of 890 total birds reported. I personally feel that is totally unacceptable, given that the number reported would merely be the tip of the iceberg. You'd have to be naïve to think that there would be good compliance from permitted swan hunters, even in the two states you've listed that have a bird limit of 5. Think of the implications - you just retrieved your bird and you realize its a Trumpeter. Do you think the average hunter is going to willingly take that bird to a check station, knowing that the result will be the closure of the hunt, when the 5 bird limit has been met? Sorry if I don't have that much faith in most of my fellow hunters!
Re: Snow goose hunt - your statement that Trumpeters get harvested during the Snow Goose hunt merely reinforces why having a Tundra hunt would be such a bad idea. If you have idiots now mistaking a massive Trumpeter for a small Snow Goose, imagine how bad it will be for the Trumpeters if it was legal to pop a Tundra. Regarding the guy that shoots a second Black - that is why we have regulations and enforcement officers. Let them get charged. Maybe they will be a little more ethical/careful the next time they hunt, and they'll pass on those hen Mallards when they already have one Black in the bag.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Ringer
I really like and agree with all that you just said there!! I was wanting to write a reply but couldn't quite figure how to write it so thanks dead ringer for finding those words!
Hello Guys,
A quick response to your comments:
1) Dead Ringer ... since a Tundra Swan season would be a limited (tag only) harvest by selected waterfowl hunters the "species identification course" that I had suggested would only be required for the Tundra Swan hunters ... I thought that was obvious but "thank you" for clarifying that to others. I also agree with you that the identification between a Trumpeter Swan and a Tundra Swan is harder than between a Black Duck and a Hen Mallard in early (limited) light ... that was just an example with new (and not so new) waterfowl hunters.
Note: For those "waterfowlers" who are interested you can print off an identification brochure from The Trumpeter Swan Society web site ... Trumpeter Swan vs Mute Swan vs Tundra Swan vs Snow Goose. I do however believe that all "waterfowlers" should get to know the basic differences between these species.
2) Fenelon ... I do share your concern as it is valid and I have also thought of the scenario that you have described ... the hunter will not be charged for the incidental harvest of that Trumpeter Swan since the bird is technically a "legal" bird but he does bring the Tundra Swan season one bird closer to a "closure" once that five bird limit is reached in that particular state.
Note: I understand (in spite of the unregulated native "subsistence harvest" in Canada and the United States as well as this incidental harvest) that both the Rocky Mountain TRSW Population and the Interior TRSW Population have doubled recently (from 5,000 to 10,000 each) while the Pacific Coast TRSW Population has only made a small gain (from 25,000 to 26,000). I have been advised by The Trumpeter Swan Society that wintering habitat is now limiting the growth of the Pacific Coast TRSW Population. I think that it is just a matter of time before we see a small limited Trumpeter Swan season on the west coast (since few Tundra Swans use that route) to manage that specific TRSW population and the effect on their wintering habitat.
As for your comments regarding the Snow Goose season ... those "idiots" would probably not pass the "species identification course" that I have suggested and consequently would not be eligible for a Tundra Swan tag ... issue solved. Furthermore is there a reason why your comments about "regulations and enforcement officers" regarding the second Black Duck scenario could not or would not apply to a Tundra Swan season?
3) Drake Mallard 12 ... I am glad that you agree ... so are you interested in a Tundra Swan season?
Thanks again to all of you for your interest.
Jerome
Keep up the great work Jerome!!!! I can't believe that there are "hunters" of any sorts against this proposal. I for one can't wait for the day when I can wrap a tag around a swans leg! Just love all the naysayers in this thread that obviously don't have a clue whats going on, our swan harvest quota was given away to the States so they can shoot them!!! The birds are getting killed anyways so why not have more hunting opportunities for us Ontario hunters instead of letting someone else harvest our quota???? Makes absolutely no sense to go against this proposal even if you really have no interest in hunting them yourself.......... take a second and think about it guys!! Give your heads a shake!!
I have zero interest in the dove season, does that mean I should of been opposed to it??? Hell no!! I support all hunting opportunities, fight the good fight guys why go against each other?? Then you have an idiot that says I'd have to drive an hr to kill one so I have no interest???? Pure genius!!!! You know how many miles some guys put on in one year to kill birds???
I saw for the first time this season a dozen tundras sitting in a field just up the road from me.
I really have thought long and hard about this and i was wrong. the population is getting larger , still in the area i hunt not a tonne, i am sure if they opened the season i could bag a few of them. and the experience would be different shooting a monsterous bird like that.
i think what your doing jerome takes a lot of dedication and hard work, and as the waterfowl community we need to take notice to that whether we as indivuals agree or not. and i hope jerome you get the answers you need and the waterfowl community gets a swan hunt in the future.
I am heading north for snows never thought i would do that, cant knock something until you try it atleast once.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duckslayer
Finally, a response that makes sense.
I have no idea why some guys are so against this. Its a hunting opportunity. As hunters, we should all stand beside each other, whether its a hunt you want to do or not. Heck, I ONLY hunt waterfowl and turkey.....I couldn't care less about any other hunting.....but I support it all. Why wouldn't I?
One thing is for sure. I'd love to watch a tundra drop from 30yds up, and splash down in the decoys!!!!
:thumbup:
S.
xx2 I have my 100 bucks ready lets get this done.Quote:
Originally Posted by mastercaster
re: As for the comments regarding the Snow Goose season ... those "idiots" would probably not pass the "species identification course" that I have suggested and consequently would not be eligible for a Tundra Swan tag ... issue solved. Furthermore is there a reason why your comments about "regulations and enforcement officers" regarding the second Black Duck scenario could not or would not apply to a Tundra Swan season?"
Ï just took the US online swan hunter mandatory course, and assuming that the Ontario course would be similar, I can assure you that it is impossible to not pass the course !. It's nothing more than a due diligence formality for anyone wanting to apply for a permit. The survey only stresses ID features for adult, white plumage birds, and the bill profile, lore spot, eye characteristic key features are merely good for a passive birder who would have an opportunity to glass the birds at close range, with good optics, and good lighting. Nothing that is stressed in the online ID course is very practical for the average hunter who will encounter these birds in an actual hunting situation. You'd have to have swans on the water, within 80yds of your blind, before any of the ID features could be used to positively ID the birds. You'd probably only be able to positively ID the adults if they swam into the decoys, and for me, this would not be worthy of a shot. The swan course omits juveniles, because they are almost impossible to separate until you have a bird in hand (basically it's a bill measurement). The vocalization part of the course is of little value, based on my personal observations of both species. I've personally only heard them call just prior to take-off, and only shortly after taking air. They are usually silent during a pass by the blind.
I'm not sure why there is continual reference to the Pacific and Rocky Mt. (interior) Trumpeter populations, as this is irrelevant for a proposed Ontario hunt. There were less than 500 Trumpeters in Ontario back in 2005. It took 40 years to successfully reintroduce them back into their former range. They are by no means common. I live in Fenelon Falls, and I only know of three breeding pairs within a 1.5 hour drive of where I live (1 pair on the McLaren's Creek/Goose Bay marsh on Sturgeon Lake, and two confirmed breeding pairs on Lake Scugog). The Sturgeon Lake pair established a breeding territory for two years prior to successfully breeding, so they were prob. 4-6 yrs old when they first successfully hatched-out young. They've fledged cygnets for three successive years now. As a waterfowl hunter, trapper, and conservationist, I do not see the sense in "risking"these birds to become collateral incidental harvest during a Tundra hunt. Definitely not a good trade-off in my books.
Regarding your comment about the shot Trumpeter being the equivalent offence as a second Black - I don't think any charge would undo the damage that's occurred once the bird has been shot. I don't see the sense in taking that chance.
^............ You make some compelling arguments.
As an amateur birder, biologist and avid waterfowler, I too would have an extremely difficult time identifying these birds on the wing, in flight at dawn or dusk if I had not heard them calling before hand.
I applaud Buddy Boys efforts but in the effort of conservation of the Trumpeter swan, I dont think I would support his proposal. That said, if the proposal were for mute swans only, I would be all over it.
The problem with this type of thinking is it creates a bystander effect in others. Let's take the spring bear hunt, I don't bear hunt (and there are more than likely others out there who don't as well) but I support the bear hunt because I would like to make sure the people who want the spring bear hunt re-instated are there to support something which I want to accomplish (whatever that might be).Quote:
Originally Posted by jobbershunting
I don't think I will ever hunt Tundra Swans either. However, I will support this initative because in five or ten years, I might want to try it and would like to have the option to hunt swans. If there is a sustainable hunting population, the question is why wouldn't hunters want to support a hunt even if they don't want to partake in it? No doubt there will be problems and mistakes will happen but any new endeavour has them. Identification issues will no doubt happen but it will be up to individual hunters to id birds and make sure they are legal to shoot like any other game animal we hunt.
Dyth
I don't hunt Doves not worth my time. They should ban that. I only hunt geese until Dec, let's ban it. I don't hunt Spring bear let's ban it.
If you can't support other hunters we truly should just ban hunting altogether.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jobbershunting
Here is the webpage for the swan hunter mandatory course in the States, in case you wish to take the test http://www.utah-hunt.com/utswancourse/. Dyth - I too would openly support a Tundra hunt if there were no Trumpeters here. In fact, it would probably be a good thing, as half the birds shot would probably be Mutes! For the folks who think I am overplaying the idea that a species recognition course would be pretty much useless, I ask that you take a road trip to Presquille this fall. Go to Weller's Bay off Salt Point. Third week in November, up until the second week in December, when the back marsh has frozen. All three species of swan will be present, often in good numbers. Book a lake blind in the park if you can, and you're viewing will be better, and you'll prob. have some swans scout your outer diver dekes. Good luck picking out the adult Tundras. Forget about separating the cygnets. So what it boils down to is this, and it's a corker - knowing what's gone in to bringing the Trumpter back to this province, are you willing to kill these birds, as an acceptable consequence of having a Tundra hunt?
Hello Guys,
A quick response to your comments:
1) Duck Slayer ... a special financial summary along with a special "waterfowler" request will be posted shortly in response to the support that I have received. Thank you for your support.
2) Mojo Stick ... I appreciated your comments and I thank you for your support. Please read the special financial summary along with a special "waterfowler" request that will be posted shortly.
3) Sinker ... some individuals have legitimate concerns that have to be addressed and I believe that the CWS Tundra Swan Season Assessment has done that. However they have every right to ask additional questions and I respect that right. Thank you for your support.
4) Tin Man ... the Tundra Swan tags in the United States use to cost $5.00 but they are currently $10.00. I suggested a $20.00 fee in my 2011 survey and the vast majority of respondents agreed that $20.00 (similar to the Wild Turkey tag) was reasonable. This would bring in about $80,000.00 per year in tag sales for the CWS to fund the program in addition to my $10,000.00 grant to implement the Tundra Swan season and my annual $4,000.00 grant to monitor the Tundra Swan harvest. Consequently the Tundra Swan tag may be $20.00 (certainly not $100.00). Furthermore I have pledged to reimburse 100 "waterfowlers" (individuals who hunt ducks, geese and swans) for their Tundra Swan tags (maximum of $20.00) if they support this proposal (details to be disclosed shortly). So I have in essence "guaranteed" the CWS that they will sell at least 101 Tundra Swan tags (I will buy one for myself) if they implement a Tundra Swan season. Thank you for your support.
4) Fenelon ... please advise me how I can take the mandatory online Swan Hunter Course as I am interested in learning about all the options available to limit (however effectively) the potential incidental harvest of a Trumpeter Swan. However I must disagree with you about the "vocalization part" as I have consistently noticed that the Tundra Swans are rather vocal in flight around Long Point ... on the water, on take off, in the air, over the blind, on landing and in the fields around town. I have been observing the Tundra Swans every morning and afternoon while they are migration through the Long Point area every fall and spring since I moved to my new house in 2011 whether the flock is 3 to 5 birds, 10 to 12 birds, 24 to 48 birds or up into the hundreds. Last fall I positively identified two (2) Trumpeter Swans by their larger size and their vocal characteristics as they flew over my backyard two afternoons in a row and then again the following week ... all three times I heard them before I saw them. Furthermore while hunting within the Long Point Waterfowl Management Unit over the last several years I have generally heard the Tundra Swans approaching my blind before I actually saw them.
I made reference to the three (3) populations of Trumpeter Swans because of your reference to the Montana Tundra Swan harvest (from both the Western Population and the Eastern Population) which included the incidental harvest of some Trumpeter Swans. Any incidental harvest of Trumpeter Swans in an Ontario Tundra Swan harvest would be from the Interior Population of Trumpeter Swans. Furthermore that portion of the Interior Population of Trumpeter Swans that may be affected has been identified within the CWS Tundra Swan Season Assessment as having increased by 135% in the last five (5) years.
Finally ... please remember that a Tundra Swan season would probably not be Province wide and areas known to be Trumpeter Swan "hot spots" would obviously be "closed" to swan hunting.
Thanks again to all of you for your interest.
Jerome
Exactly Greatwhite!!!! Def not the response I expected from jobberhunting........this me me me generation is just sickening!!!! Then there is other guys worried about 6 swans and want everybody not to be able to hunt the thousands and thousands of swans that migrate through Ont. every year because there are 6 swans on Sturgeon lake..........ridiculous!!!!! Funny part is right away you got guys agreeing with him!! Very scary to think what we will and wont be able to do in the future........best start taking up cross stitching......sad part is the me me me generation will prob worry about how many injury's will occur from people falling on the needles........sad...
Yes, this is key. I would NOT support a tundra season on sturgeon lake, or any other body of water with breeding pairs of trumpeter swans. Obviously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy Boy
Areas like long point, and Lake St. Clair could easily sustain a harvest of tundra's, and there are enough of them that correctly identifying them wouldn't be as hard as you'd think.
There's also the fact that any waterfowler who wants to harvest a tundra, is going to make damn sure he's shooting the right species of bird. I don't think your going to find the weekend warriors out targeting swans.
S.
Hello Guys,
A quick response to your comments:
1) Jobber Shunting ... please see my comments to Fenelon about "vocal" birds in my last post. I would also like to emphasize that a Tundra Swan season would probably not be Province wide and areas known to be Trumpeter Swan "hot spots" would obviously be "closed" to swan hunting.
Please see my previous comments regarding the Mute Swan problem.
2) Dyth Bringer ... I agree with your example and I submitted a letter of support for the Spring Bear Hunt even though I only hunt "waterfowl" ... ducks, geese and eventually swans. Thank you for your support.
3) Great White ... you are absolutely right ... if we prohibited the hunting of every species that some of us did not want to hunt then we would not having any hunting in Ontario ... end of discussion. I thank you for your continued support.
4) Fenelon ... we must be communicating mentally somehow as you responded to the request in my last post at about the same time that I was typing it on my "word pad" before transferring it to this thread. What if we had some "No Swan Hunting Areas" to protect the Trumpeter Swan in Ontario along with a limited Tundra Swan harvest ... would that help in resolving your main concern. Thank you for your continued comments, interest and for the Swan Hunter Course web site.
Thanks again to all of you for your interest.
Jerome
Fenelon,Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenelon
You make a good points and I understand them. However, how many times in a hunting season do we hear of species mis-identification by hunters? Dogs are mistaken for coyotes, elk are mistaken for deer, I have even hear of the clueless shooting at a farmer's cows. Do we stop hunting those species because of mis-identification? No we don't. How many hunters got their angry because the spring bear hunt was cancelled because "too many hunters were shooting sows with cubs" which if happened was a clear case of mis-identification. I don't want trumpters shot either. We as hunters have to always know what our target is and if it is legal to take (and what is beyond it), this is a basic skill we hunters need to have. By saying you don't think tundras should be hunted because there are hunters out there who will mis-identify them allows a logical arguement that all species of game animals can be mis-identified and hunters shouldn't be allowed to hunt any game animals.
Dyth
Greatwhite you are being rather facetious.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
The two proposals (dove hunt & swan hunt) are similar in nature, but different in their complexity.
When you are dove hunting, are there any other bird species that look nearly identical, occupy the same habitat, migrate at similar times and are protected by conservation laws? If dove hunting had a high potential for collateral damage to protected species such as the Bobolink, Chimney Swift or Canada Warbler, I wouldn't support it either, however, that is not the case.
My stance in not supporting the hunting of swans has nothing to do with my inclination to hunt them or not, it has to do with the protection of another similar species that I truly believe most people cannot and could not differentiate between in a hunting scenario. End of story.
Again, if it were for Mutes only, I am all for it.
Not even sure how to respond to this mess. Where in my post did you feel I was representing this "me me me generation"? Was it when I made a statement that went against the grain and challenged the popular opinion? Independent thought is scary, hopefully it won't limit my cross-stitching potential.Quote:
Originally Posted by duckslayer
Dyth, I think you made his point beautifully.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
Cant wait til this goes through. I just want one so I can get a nice close look at one. Doubt the wife would approve of a dead mount on the wall tho...
Not really I have noted that about 10% of the active people on here always have said in the past they don't support one thing or another in gun or hunting because it doesn't affect them.
So when I suggested maybe the others should be cancelled because some of us are not interested there is no difference.
It is very easy to see even on a hunting web site how little support there is between hunters if they feel it is not something they are interested it.
If we are not going to support each other maybe it is time to begin phasing hunting out.
I have and always will support other hunters and the firearms community.
But many on here on support what affects them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jobbershunting
But you ignore my point about even with hunters mis-identifying species we hunt now, we still hunt those species. If mis-identification is a valid reason not to have a hunt of a huntable species, then all hunting can be stopped.Quote:
Originally Posted by jobbershunting
This is exactly the way I see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TurkeyRookie
I'm all for it. Would love to get a tag and possibly take one of the hundreds that fly over head in the fall.
Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk
If you could come up with some way to teach some of these guys that call themselves hunters /water fowlers how NOT TO Mis-Identify whatever they are hunting , then I would support it .Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
But there are too many out there that are just gung ho and want to kill something and wind up shooting a species that they can not identify.
I have taken guys out duck hunting and they see some flying and say get ready we'll take them , I just say go ahead count me out as they are mergansers .
How many times have we all seen posts here where tundra swans are said to be snow geese, there is a vast difference in size alone regardless of the fact that snow geese also being a lot smaller have black wing tips which are readily seen with the naked eye, plus they have pink feet and bills .
Guys that cannot identify a black duck amongst hen mallards are just shooting to early in the mourning.
Here is a dandy , while hunting ducks' some blue herons were flying by and some guys started calling while shouting geese, geese they continued to use their goose calls and when the herons got within range , three of them they were shot.
Needless to say this was reported to the C.O. who was checking the hunters as they all came out of the marsh.
I also do not understand how a "hunter can shoot an elk and say he thought it was a deer .
As far as bear hunting is concerned , you can't mistake it for anything else , and as for bringing the bear hunt back , I am fine with it as we have had a bear hunt for many, many years and they can be a nuisance and dangerous so bringing some thing back that was unjustly taken away, is great.
Your elk hunt comment struck home and made me think . It's a pretty good point to compare - eg. newly reintroduced species being opened to hunting, population status about the same, and some ID problems to boot. Not much different from the swan scenario, and things seemed to turn out OK. If I look at the elk scenario, the MNR handled it by only allowing key areas (township subdivisions in some cases) where known concentrations of elk occurred. Are there key areas for fall Tundras, where high concentrations of Trumpeters do not occur? I just know that in my area (Kawartha Lakes), both species are present at the same time, and I'm sure there would be Trumpeters shot. As I said previously, I only know of three "local" breeding pairs of Trumpeters. The loss of even one of these birds would be a sad day for a pile of people. These birds make the local papers every year, and are almost regarded as celebrities to many of the local folk. We have birders coming from afar to watch and photograph them. As a hunter, I have concerns of what the public perception will be if any of these birds are shot during a hunt. These Trumpeters are not seen by the locals as "sky carp" (giant resident Canadas) that crap on the cottager's bowling green lawn, or have all our beaches shut down for half the summer. It's a big deal for people to see them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy Boy
Ya i definitely am, i love hunting all forms of fowl, if numbers can be sustained im all for hunting them!!!!! Im also all for hunting sandhill cranes in certain parts of ontario. Every year when i hunt the liskeard area we often see flocks of hundreds especially near the hiliardton D.U marsh
See ya on the marsh! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by drakemallard12
Problem is, too many people oppose additional regulation. Consider the many people who were upset about the Boat Operator Card requirement. "I've been a boater for 20 years, I don't need no stinking card to prove it".Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
Meanwhile, many of those "20 year" boaters I've met are some of the most clueless when it comes to piloting, navigation and safety.
Replace the above statement with hunter and you see the issue.
There's already a hunter's ed course requirement and a turkey course. Many people aren't going to be happy if a waterfowl ID segment is added. "I have to take a duck course now?! Next thing you're going to tell me there's a fish ID course before I can go fishing!"
Otherwise, this would help:
http://www.depi.vic.gov.au/fishing-a...ification-test
jaycee,Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
If I could come up with some way to teach everyone not to do the wrong thing, I think I would be a millioinaire many times over. :joker:
Guys who gravely mis-identify species shouldn't be hunting. I think we all agree to that. And I also understand how difficult identifying tundras from trumpters. This will more than likely be the reason I will not hunt swans. I don't want to shoot the wrong animal.
Your examples are compelling. Yes there are guys out there who mis-identify duck species but we don't punish every waterfowler by not allowing waterfowl to be hunted because these guys can't tell one type of duck from another do we? Should it not be the same for swans? We aren't arguing a population issue here, we aren't arguing a season length either. We are arguing about whether to have a season based on a hunter's ability to judge whether it is the correct animal to shoot or not. Huntable species seasons aren't based on that or if they are they sure shouldn't be.
I only used the bear hunt example to show all hunters should support each other when it comes to opening up new (or reinstating) hunting opportunities. I could have easily used the example of the RCMP re-classifing a firearm or the post about the person who was trying to get handguns to be allowed to be used for hunting.
Dyth
But as with the turkey course (and was stated eariler), you could make the course mandatory if you wanted to get a swan tag.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Ringer
Dyrth, why draw the line there? Why not make it required for all waterfowl hunters?
Keep in mind I'm just playing devil's advocate here.
Hello Guys,
A quick response to your comments:
1) Duck Slayer ... the CWS Tundra Swan Season Assessment took the Trumpeter Swan issue into consideration and apparently the CWS is not worried about a potential incidental harvest of Trumpeter Swans since that part of the Interior Population of Trumpeter Swans had a 135% increase in the last five (5) years. Thank you for your continued support.
2) Sinker ... you are exactly right and the Tundra Swan hunters would probably be a select group.
3) Dyth Bringer ... well I took the Utah "Swan Hunter Course" yesterday afternoon and I passed (100%) on the first attempt. It is a basic identification course but it is reasonable.
Note: Supporting your argument is the fact that when (not if) the Mute Swan is removed from the List of Protected Species you will not be required to take any identification course to shoot (not "harvest" as this is not a game bird) a Mute Swan in Canada. Although I have previously suggested this to Mr. J. Hughes (Head of Population Management, CWS) Dr. S. Petrie (Executive Director, LPW) told me (e-mail on file) that it will be up to the individual to be able to correctly identify a Mute Swan before shooting it ... just like a crow hunter cannot just shoot any bird that is black in colour.
4) Jobber Shunting ... please read the above note to Dyth Bringer. Furthermore swan hunting will not be for "most people" who cannot distinguish between the three swan species.
5) Sherlockbonez ... so I take it that you support this proposal ... thank you.
6) Great White ... I agree with you and I have previously stated that I was told to expect more resistence from fellow hunters than from the non-hunting public. Thank you for your continued support.
7) Dyth Bringer ... I also noticed that Jobber Shunting missed your point altogether.
8) Mox 72 ... I thank you for your support.
9) Coco Zoo ... I thank you for your support.
Thanks again to all of you for your interest.
Jerome
Hey Dead Ringer,Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Ringer
No problem about playing Devil's Advocate (I like to be his advocate from time to time as well) because by discussing a topic like this, we as hunters can make a solid and logical reasoning towards government officals (MNR provincially, CWS federally) to instute what we want to happen. If we go off with a half baked idea without having looked at it from all sides, government officals and anti-hunters will poke holes in our ideas and we will not advance our causes. Ok with that said....
Some waterfowlers should be taking an identification course, Jaycee's examples showed that. If you can't tell the difference between a blue heron and a goose, well, then I don't imagine any identification course in the world is going to help you. Would any us care to hazard a guess as to how many "white ducks" (seagulls) are killed every year despite not being a huntable species? We don't ask hunters to do an ID course because we trust that being adults, they will know how to identify what they are shooting at. I believe it is in the hunters course one of the questions you need to ask yourself before you pull the trigger is "Am I legally allowed to shoot this animal?" (perhaps someone who has recently taken the course can confirm this). However, because there is a fairly reasonable chance of identification mixup with a protected species, I think an identification course would be most prudent. I also think there should be a stringent conditions for passing for that course (for instance 85% or higher to pass). Opening up a hunt for the tundra species is special and I for one don't want guys like Jaycee used in his example to be out there blasting away at every swan which comes into range.
Dyth
Jerome,Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy Boy
I wouldn't want this course to be online. I would want this course to have a definate hands on approach where guys are taught how to actually distinguish the difference and it is hammered home if you have any doubts if the swans you are about to shoot are trumpters, you don't take the shot. While it would make it seem like we are treating the guys who would take the course as kids, in reality, most guys will have no experience identifying the differences between tundras and trumpters and any mistakes by swan hunters will be scrutinized to the fullest if something bad happened.
Dyth
Dyth, does anyone actually put on a waterfowl identification course??
I think something like that would be very useful.
To be honest, I am not sure. When I took my hunter's education course back in '91 (I believe), I think we had a quick waterfowl section (the course's book even had a section about game animals in it) and I distinctly remember a point about being able to tell the difference between a black duck and a mallard (at the time I don't think you were allowed to harvest black ducks or you were only allowed one).Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
The thing about a waterfowl id course is you would have to make passing it a condition to purchase a migratory bird license. While guys like you who would probably take the course to gain knowledge to positively id waterfowl, there are more guys out there who wouldn't want to bother.
Dyth
I stand corrected. It seems the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation has a waterfowling ID course and it is a condition to get an access permit to select National Wildlife refugees and state lands open to waterfowling. And it seems to be free (probably only for NY state residents though).
http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/92272.html
So I guess they are out there. I have never heard of one in Ontario though.
no more courses.
if you are taking your hunting license course fine, expand the ID part and for gods sake include the friken turkey course section at the same time.
if I have to take another course, and at the same time give someone another 75 bucks for nothing. I cant be bothered.
Bowhunters hunting in Thunder Bay's city archery season had to take a course to qualify. Why should this be any different?Quote:
Originally Posted by bardern
This could be something made to take online.
Why on earth are mute swans a protected species?
A swan identification course?Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
Only issue I see with that is the potential for cheating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
Jerome, would there be any provisions regarding age of the swans? While from a management perspective, I don't see an issue with harvest of (obvious) juveniles, I do think it would be bad PR.
As for the idea of a waterfowl ID course (outside the swan discussion), I think that is a conversation that should be had on another thread to avoid confusion on this one.
http://www.oodmag.com/community/show...249#post772249
Agreed,Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Ringer
I am sure we all know 1 or 10 people that have never seen the online boater exam but hold a valid permit, and their buddy now holds a case of beer :)
I would think that it was from low numbers originally.Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_saber
If those swans looked like turkey vultures, the majority of this conversation wouldn't be happening. Sad really.
You are a champion amongst hunters buddy boy. Congratulations and thank you.
I was confused about what GW's online course would refer to (hence why I asked him to clarify) because like you said the potential for cheating is too great for something like this. Practical experience is how hunters learn, getting information online removes that pratical experience from the equation. As I said in my previous post, because of the potential impact of mis-identification between trumpters and tundras, this course needs to be a classroom course with strict passing requirements.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Ringer
They're an invasive species, and like many dominant invasives, they have quite an impact on native species. Pretty sure the regulation has nothing to do with the size of the population. When was the last time you saw someone saying "please sir, don't hurt the Phragmites"?Quote:
Originally Posted by onelessarrow
In my mind, it's all about how the public (non-hunters) view the harvesting of Mute Swans, let alone Swans in general. They're pretty white birds that they see in city parks.
I'd love to get the chance to shoot Mutes, I've had quite a few opportunities that I could have taken over the years if they were de-listed.
-Nick
The Mute thing goes back to our connection with the UK, and this country being an unworthy "colony" of Mother Britain and the Queen. There's the classic medieval castle moat, complete with lotus, and populated by a few pieces of white eye candy" ( it's never mentioned that they are the sole occupants of this moat, as they'd kill anything else that attempted to land in the moat!). No person can deny that they are beautiful birds to look at. Ontario was even presented with some Mutes, directly gifted by The Queen herself. They came directly from her Maj's Royal Keeper Of The Swans. There is even a pompt ceremony when The Keeper brings them indoors to be pampered for the winter, then the whole routine happens again in the spring. Since the whole thing is British, there's probably some sherry, or port, involved in the deal. If you Google it, I think you'll find that offspring from the gifted royal flock are still kept here in Ontario. You can't even sit down to wipe your backside without being exposed to the regal creatures (is it Delsey "tickets" that have the Mute logo?). I laugh every time I see this, as the classic beautiful Mute pose that is always portrayed is the cobb's aggression display, with the high-arched wings and fluffed-up feathers. If you see this, you better run, as the cobb is capable of breaking a grown man's arm. Some poor dude in a kayak was recently killed by one (beat the crap out of him and drowned him). If they ever do approve a cull, I'm not sure what they'd do with the carcasses. We tested some adult Mute breast meat at work with the fancy gas chromography equipment, and the heavy metals concentration in the two bird sample we had was off the chart. Combine that with the fact you may be eating a 25 year old bird. It would probably chew like a piece of old boot leather. The fall cygnets would prob. be edible. Good luck to CWS on getting a cull going. I can only imagine the politics that will be involved if/when this beautiful bird gets what's coming. I sincerely hope they do something quickly, before we have no resident breeding left in any of our marshes.
Mute Swans are a totally invasive species to Canada.Quote:
Originally Posted by onelessarrow
Didn't know that.
I was on a hunt at Walpole island this past fall I couldn't believe the Mute swans flying around there could have easily seen 40 and probably could have shot 5 or so they didn't have much fear of hunters, I guess because no one ever shots at them. This was in early Oct but I assume those birds would be there most of the year that's a lot of unneeded competition for nesting ducks and geese. Kill em all
One of my favorite marshes which plays host to more things than I can name, appears to be slowly being overrun by Mutes. More and more every year.
What to do about it?
Well the same might be asked of Cormies. Lots of brick walls there to.
I thought they tore that Commie wall down in 1989.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
Cormie, but perhaps a red r is suitable or not as the case may be.
:)
I might liken getting a hunt passed for Mutes (any swan) to the same for hunting Cormies. Theres going to be a lot of opposition (brick walls) I have to beleive.
I will put my back up on this one. NO MORE COURSES. so basically our training systems are so useless we have to re-train bowhunters to qualify for a controlled hunt. That dog dont hunt from where I stand to coin a phrase.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
Hello Guys,
A quick response to your comments (52 to 59):
1) Jaycee ... obviously some people do not belong in the field with a gun.
2) Fenelon ... I agree with you that some areas should be a "No Swan Hunt Zone" to prevent what you have described ... good point. However Long Point is one example where a limited Tundra Swan hunt could take place as every hunter has to "register in" as well as "check out" with their birds.
3) Drake Mallard ... a limited Sandhill Crane season may not be too far away.
4) Turkey Rookie ... see my comment to Drake Mallard above.
5) Dead Ringer ... I agree with a "Swan Hunter Course" if you want to apply for a tag.
6) Dyth Bringer ... when we get a limited Tundra Swan season you can come down to Long Point and I will show you the swans from my backyard that extends into the inner bay.
7) Dyth Bringer ... exactly ... a "Swan Hunter Course" is reasonable.
8) Dead Ringer ... a "Swan Identification" section should be part of Hunter Training in this Province.
Thanks again to all of you for your interest.
Jerome
I commend you Jerome not only for your persistence and dedication to this cause but for the mature manner you have addressed those with opposing views. This thread (with the exception of the usual suspects) is a fine example of healthy debate and your efforts have kept it civil and constructive.
In my opinion it's not a straight forward "united we stand, divided we fall" topic as some have suggested. The issues of identification and protecting sensitive areas are valid and have been presented well. My initial concerns of the quality of the meat have been addressed (until I can actually try some for myself that is) and my comment about the "anti's"....well, they will always be there.
Good luck with this endeavour.
Mike
No our training systems aren't useless but that was the price the city asked for so that the non-hunting public was assured there wasn't irresponsible bowhunters out there during the city cull. It is dumb but sometimes compromises must be made to achieve the end result.Quote:
Originally Posted by bardern
I am not trying to get your back up on this barden. I am simply trying to find a way the guys who have posted objections in this thread about mis-identifying a trumpter swan for a tundra to get behind this proposal. While your proposal is sound in getting a swan ID part of the hunter's course (as well as the turkey course being a part of it), licensed hunters who may want to hunt swans shouldn't have to redo the entire hunter's course. My suggest about a separate swan course covers guys in that group.
Dyth
Hello Guys,
A quick response to your comments:
However since many of your comments and questions have already been addressed I will limit my response to the follwoing selected posts.
1) Dyth Bringer ... your comment to Dead Ringer (Post 61) was excellent and so very true ... the swan hunters will (without any doubt) be held to a higher standard and any mistake will be exploited to the full extent possible.
Note: Each new Tundra Swan season is only granted for an initial three (3) year period after which time it is reviewed as per the quidelines within the management plan.
2) Dyth Bringer ... your comment to me (Post 62) was very valid. I have previously suggested that an actual course could be given by Long Point Waterfowl on Swan Identification regarding the removal of the Mute Swan from the List of Protected Species but the idea was dismissed as not being required as I have indicated before. However after giving this issue additional consideration I have decided that your suggestion for a mandatory "hands on" course should be the way to go due to your comments to Dead Ringer (Post 61) and my response above.
Note: We cannot afford a "screw up" by any swan hunter in those first three years and preferably anytime after that.
3) Blasted Saber ... your question regarding the Mue Swan (Post 69) was probably sufficiently answered by Fenelon (Post 76). Dr. S. Petrie has written several articles regarding the Mute Swan and he provided me with copies of these articles as reference material in 2010 for my Proposal to Remove the Mute Swan from the List of Protected Species (see my separate thread on this). He advised me at that time that the Mute Swan should not have been added to the list since it was established specifically for indigenous wildlife species only ... the Mute Swan is an invasive species.
4) Dead Ringer ... the concern that you raised (Post 71) should not be an issue. A swan tag is valid for one swan ... adult (white) or juvenile (greyish-white) although most American swan hunters will take an adult swan in order to mount their bird. You could potentially have a trophy mount as well as great tasting meat if you harvested a young adult swan (1 1/2 year old). Since a mature Tundra Swan will not breed before two years of age (maybe three) you could select a young adult by harvesting a "white" bird without any juveniles with it.
Note: Thank you for starting a new thread regarding "waterfowl identification" courses.
5) One Less Arrow ... your compliment (Post 73) was much appreciated and I thank you for your support.
6) Fenelon ... your comments regarding the Mute Swan (Post 76) were funny and I had quite a laugh reading them.
7) J Ben ... do not confuse the Tundra Swan with the Cormorant ... one is a large migratory game bird (under the Migratory Game Bird Act) and the other is a "large greedy sea bird" (dictionary description).
8) Mad Mike ... your compliment (Post 85) was much appreciated and I thank you for your support.
Thanks again to all of you for your interest.
Jerome
Hello Guys,
A special response to Dyth Bringer's last comment (Post 86).
1) A limited Tundra Swan season in the Province of Ontario will be a very special season for very dedicated "waterfowlers" who are willing to go "the extra mile".
2) A limited Tundra Swan season in the Province of Ontario will only happen with the support from as many "waterfowlers" as possible.
3) A limited Tundra Swan season in the Province of Ontario will only happen with the "acceptance" of it by those individuals who do not "support" it.
4) A limited Tundra Swan season in the Province of Ontario will only continue beyond the initial three (3) year trial period if it "works" without additional opposition to it.
Consequently we will need to get as many individuals "on board" as possible and for that reason I agree with Dyth Bringer's suggestion for a "hands on" course for "swan hunters" if possible.
Since the initial three (3) year trial period may not be "province wide" in nature then a "hands on" course may be "doable". However I am not sure how we could eventually accommodate individuals living everywhere in the province. How could they take the course if it was not available locally before travelling to that part of the province where the Tundra Swan season was open?
As it stands now we have no Tundra Swan season so any season with restrictions is better than what we currently have.
Thanks again to all of you for your interest.
Jerome
Sorry Jerome but as soon as you bring (another) coarse into the mix I will be out!!! I will still support your efforts but I WILL NOT take another money grabbing coarse and I'm afraid if its mandatory to have to take a coarse to hunt swans you may never have enough support to gain a season!!!! Good luck!
I think what would be acceptable to some people and myself is a compulsory "Free" online course.
There is no reason the OFAH could not have their programmers develop an online computer course for waterfowl indentification. Approx time to develop such a course is maybe 1 month at month maybe 2 months if they have to work it amongst other objectives. (I'm a programmer and do this for a living).
I'm not a graphics designer, I build web based database applications. A simple database could be developed in 1 - 2 weeks the programming portion would be the easiest, graphics and instructions and so forth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duckslayer
Hello Guys,
A quick response to your comments:
1) Duck Slayer ... I agree with you that a mandatory "Swan Hunter Course" may turn some potential swan hunters off especially if there is a cost to take it. I was just expressing my personal opinion regarding Dyth Bringer's suggestion for a "hands on" course ... I would take it and I would pay to take it.
Check out the free Utah "on line" swan hunter course (http://www.utah-hunt.com/utswancourse/) and let me know what you think.
2) Great White ... I agree with you that some (probably most) potential swan hunters would accept a free mandatory "on line" course but some have already mentioned the potential cheating that could occur with it and Dyth Bringer has mentioned the limitations of such a course.
Check out the free Utah "on line" swan hunter course (http://www.utah-hunt.com/utswancourse/) and let me know what you think.
Thanks again to all of you for your interest.
Jerome
Jerome,
My take on the Utah course (just aced it):
- not enough ID questions. All examples were straightforward. What about a bird locked up coming into the decoys? What about a juvenile? What about a mixed flock? Low light silhouette? I think you see where I'm going with this: more questions that replicate real-life scenarios like some of the Delta duck quizzes http://www.deltawaterfowl.org/quizzes.html
- Questions too easy in general. Any coincidence that I too got 100% on my first try with very limited background on the subject? This is going to be some super special opportunity, you'd darn well better prove that you got the concepts. The questions (all multiple choice) were a lot of "all of the above", "which is false", type questions. The only question that required any thinking was the one about the timing of the migration. Not saying it needs to be the SATs, but maybe some fill in the blanks, or even "select all that apply". Maybe some questions that apply reasoning instead of just memorization. Heck, ID of a swan in flight will require reasoning, not just memorization.
- I wish they impressed upon the students better the importance of reducing even legal take of trumpeter swans. Show how much effort is being put into their conservation. It read like the course was written by a hunter. Us (hunters) v them (trumpeter people and antis). I'd rather the hunter be made to feel a personal responsibility for conservation. Maybe have trumpeter person write about why it is so important to limit their harvest. A few slides about the $, time and science being applied to protect trumpeters. Put an onus on the hunter to not just shoot a trumpeter for his wall or b/c he was too excited to wait for a positive ID. Sorry, but I don't think they made it feel enough like a bad thing to shoot a trumpeter.
- Are we going to measure heads here?
- Is a mute harvest going to be included or will that have to be a separate deal?
- Are there migration corridors/dates that will help reduce trumpeter harvest?
Maybe you already answered some of these, but it's hard to track.
I have just today found out that after 30 years of breeding , tagging and releasing Trumpeter Swans , there is only a total of 800 in the province.Quote:
Maybe have trumpeter person write about why it is so important to limit their harvest.
This info came from The Trumpeter Swan Coalition group .
To even have one or two shot accidentally by hunters because of miss identification , would seriously put a very big dent into all the hard work done by the people involved in increasing their numbers.
Hello Guys,
A quick response to your comments:
1) Dead Ringer ... thank you for your detailed review of the Utah "Swan Hunter Course" which supported much of what Fenelon had previously said about it. I agree that it is hard (impossible) to fail when you can just keep on guessing until you get the right answer before moving on to the next question. Thank you for the link to the Delta Waterfowl "waterfowl identification course".
As for your questions:
a) According to the management plan some form of monitoring is required in every jurisdiction that has a Tundra Swan harvest ... the CWS would have to decide on the type of monitoring.
b) The "Proposal to Remove Mute Swans from the List of Protected Species" that I submitted in October of 2010 (see separate thread) was originally suggested to me by Dr. S. Petrie with his support in January of 2010 (as previously stated), the Ontario Waterfowl Advisory Committee (OWAC) supported my proposal at their November 2010 meeting and the CWS agreed to look further into the implementation of this proposal. I was advised recently by a Delta Waterfowl representative that discussions are currently taking place between the CWS and the MNR regarding this proposal. Furthermore (as previously stated) I was advised that it will be up to the individual to correctly identify a Mute Swan from a Trumpeter Swan from a Tundra Swan ... so I am a bit concerned about that since anyone apparently will be permitted to shoot them. I believe that it would be better to have a Tundra Swan season and then only those "waterfowlers" who have a tag could shoot Mute Swans as a bonus ... just my opinion.
c) There may have to be a "No Swan Hunt Zone" in some areas as has been discussed within this thread depending upon the "public discussions" that the CWS/MNR would be required to have before a Tundra Swan season would be granted to Ontario as per the management plan.
2) Jaycee ... like Dead Ringer said "this is going to be some super special opportunity" so your point is well taken. Do you have a link to The Trumpeter Swan Coalition Group that you could post for the other readers ... thank you for the information.
I have had some preliminary discussions with representatives of The Trumpeter Swan Society in which I have indicated a willingness to eventually contribute $1,000.00 annually from The Dr. Jerome Katchin Waterfowl Foundation in perpetuity to assist them with their goals. However we have to obtain a "charitable status" for them from the Canadian Revenue Agency before I could do this.
Thanks again to all of you for your interest.
Jerome
I spoke directly with Liz Benneian via phone, who is involved heavily with the Trumpeter Swan Coalition in Hamilton, her phone number is listed on their website which you can find by "googling " it.Quote:
2) Jaycee ... like Dead Ringer said "this is going to be some super special opportunity" so your point is well taken. Do you have a link to The Trumpeter Swan Coalition Group that you could post for the other readers ... thank you for the information.
I posted this over in DR's "waterfowl course" thread and was asked to move it over here to where it may be more appropriate in case anyone would like to argue or support the positions:
"I defend the right for Canadians to use their portion of the Tundra harvest instead of giving it to the U.S. like we have been and I applaud Jerome for trying to make this happen ... but ... for me, if there is a course I will not be a swan hunter. I have not hunted turkeys and have no interest in it, mostly due to the course needed and the high cost of a tag to shoot just one (I can buy one cheaper), I guess I have had it with overregulation which is mostly designed for the government to make more $$ off our recreation.
With that said ... I tend to be a close to home hunter and do not travel much ... and we now see almost no Tundras in my area, but hundred's if not thousands of Mutes within 40km of where I live, so, if we are able to get these aggressive, invasive species off the protected list, I will be VERY VERY disappointed if they make us do a course to shoot a potentially non-regulated species, that just seems wrong to me ... for my own purposes I would like to press for the mutes to be taken off the protected list (shoot when you want as many as you want), and for other Canadian hunters I really would like to see Canada get their share of the Tundra harvest. But please ... no extra courses for either."
I expect if we get an Ontario Tundra swan harvest, we would have to buy a tag worth just one swan ... with this tag could be supplied at least written information on how to identify the three different species of swan and what you can and cannot shoot, similar to the card of info we each receive with our bird stamp each year ... it, of course, would be up to the individual to read and understand the information, just like it is up to the student to pay attention in a course, but we all know some float through and just do enough to pass then forget it. I would prefer information with the "swan stamp" over a maditory course.
Hello Guys,
A quick response to your comments:
1) Jaycee ... thank you for the contact in Hamilton.
2) Gadwall ... thank you for re-posting your comments in this thread. I noticed that you added a little about an "identification card" that would come with the Tundra Swan tag ... what a great idea! This way everyone who buys a Tundra Swan tag (there will be a tag as per my original proposal and confirmed in the CWS Tundra Swan Season Assessment) will have a basic identification card with (I am adding this to your idea) references as to where to find additional information. Furthermore a free "on line" CWS identification course could be provided emphasizing the need to be extremely careful of what swan you shoot as previously suggested.
Thanks again to all of you for your interest.
Jerome
I am going to have to change my opinion on the matter. So, we are losing 'our allotment' of tags for Tundra Swans, the potential damage that a hunt could have on the fragile Trumpeter Swan through accidental kills is not worth the risk. You spoke of a $1000 donation from your fund, so long as you can get a tax receipt... big deal! What does $1000/yr accomplish... jack squat!Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
Hunters are the best conversationalists... acknowledging that there maybe accidental kills that could cause damage to a delicate population, and then to offer a token small amount of money to smooth things over is wrong.
Hello Guys,
This will be a special response to Doug's comments (Post # 98) but something that the rest of you should know as well.
1) Your comments regarding the Trumpeter Swan population are inaccurate:
a) If you read the CWS Tundra Swan Season Assessment you would have noticed that the sub-population of Trumpeter Swans that the Ontario Trumpeter Swans belong to had a 135% increase in size over the last five (5) years. By comparison the Interior Population of Trumpeter Swans (that this sub-population belongs to) had about a 100% increase in size. Consequently I do not believe that we are dealing with a "fragile" species or a "delicate" population and apparently neither does the CWS according to their assessment.
b) Furthermore as I have previously stated the USFWS is now considering opening up additional Tundra Swan seasons within the eastern United States that may involve an incidental harvest of Trumpeter Swans from the above mentioned sub-population of Trumpeter Swans that the Ontario Trumpeter Swans belong to (as I understood the report).
c) We already currently have an incidental harvest of swans in Ontario (as recently confirmed to me) and consequently I agree that having an official limited Tundra Swan season in Ontario would serve to enlighten the general waterfowling community. However we could have a "No Swan Hunt Zone" in some areas to protect our local Trumpeter Swan population.
d) Please also consider that the aboriginal people in Canada may hunt any swan, any time without any limits under their "subsistence" harvest ... yet both the Tundra Swan and Trumpeter Swan populations continue to grow.
2) Your comments about my level of financial support are inaccurate:
a) If you read my letter of March 01, 2014 to Mr. J. Hughes (Head of Population Management, CWS) carefully then you would have noticed that beyond my initial $10,000.00 grant to help implement a Tundra Swan season in Ontario and an additional $4,000.00 annual grant for twenty (20) years (another $80,000.00) to help monitor the Tundra Swan harvest in Ontario I stated:
My additional two (2) pledges of $5,000.00 for the implementation of a Tundra Swan Recreational Harvest in the Provinces of Manitoba and Saskatchewan will be addressed in a subsequent letter as an additional (projected) $1,000.00 will be available at the end of 2015, $2,000.00 at the end of 2016, $3,000.00 at the end of 2017, $4,000.00 at the end of 2018, $5,000.00 at the end of 2019 and $6,000.00 at the end of 2020 for a total of $21,000.00 then continuing at $6,000.00 per year in perpetuity based upon Part 1 of the Financial Plan for The Dr. Jerome Katchin Waterfowl Foundation. I will disclose Part 2 of the Financial Plan to you and other interested parties at a later date.
b) The $1,000.00 per year that I had referred to was the minimum that would be available to The Trumpeter Swan Society out of the $6,000.00 per year that would be available by the end of 2020 to the various waterfowl organizations that support "waterfowl" hunting.
c) Furthermore you had only considered (misconsidered) the financial resources outlined under Part 1 of the Financial Plan without any knowledge of what was to come under Part 2 of the Financial Plan.
d) You were in the past, still are in the present and will remain in the future unaware of my Estate Plan for the various waterfowl organizations that support "waterfowl" hunting.
e) You asked what does $1,000.00 per year accomplish and then abruptly stated "jack squat". Well The Trumpeter Swan Society was very grateful for the financial contribution that I made last year to help them host the Fifth International Swan Symposium that was held in Maryland last month.
f) You referred to my $1,000.00 per year (which I remind you was the minimum that would be available to them) as a "token" and as a "small amount of money" so perhaps you would be willing to financially help The Trumpeter Swan Society with a corresponding "token" ... nothing significant ... just a "small amount of money".
3) The Trumpeter Swan Society has a very good Swan Identification brochure on their web site that you can print off ... maybe this brochure could be included with the purchase of a Tundra Swan tag.
Thanks again to all of you for your interest.
Jerome
Tell us why , the CWS, MNR, and the LPWA, and DU, are not very receptive to your proposal as I have found out .?
I have seen so many swans in the past two weeks, migrating back , fields full in southern Ontario ,
saw one field yesterday had to be 2000 in it , just insane, open the season in the spring and southern Ontario would benefit from it,
I saw about 500 flying over my place this morning. Flock after flock. I've been seeing them for a couple of weeks now but in much smaller numbers.
Hello Guys,
This will be a special response to Jaycee's comments (Post # 100) but something that the rest of you should know as well.
I will share with you what I know on the understanding that Jaycee will share with us what he has "found out" on his own.
1) The CWS decided in April of 2011 to conduct a Tundra Swan Season Assessment subsequent to the submission of my original Tundra Swan proposal in October of 2010 and the submission of additional supporting documentation as well as letters of support from other "waterfowlers" in the beginning of 2011 ... something that would not have been done if there was no support for the proposal.
2) I received a note of gratitude from the CWS last summer for "all the work" that I had done "to bring swan hunting to Canada" ... something that would not have been done if there was no support for the proposal.
3) However I am aware that there are some individuals within the CWS who would like to terminate "waterfowling" entirely in the Long Point area ... something to consider.
4) I have not heard back from the MNR although one individual (who had expresssed some interest in the proposal) informed me that he had forwarded the documentation that I had sent to him to others within his department.
5) Mr. T. Worden (President, Ducks Unlimited Canada) advised me towards the end of 2011 that the proposal lies outside of Ducks Unlimited Canada's mandate however he did express his personal "good luck" to me.
6) Mr. J. Malcolm (President, LPWA) has recently advised me that the LPWA Board of Directors currently does not support the proposal due to the apparent lack of interest (despite the available evidence) among our members. He has however agreed to have "A Tundra Swan Season In Ontario" as an agenda item for discussion at our AGM in April of this year and this has recently been confirmed by Mr. A. Freitag (Secretary, LPWA).
I stated from the onset that a limited Tundra Swan season would not be for everyone and I had been warned to expect more opposition from my fellow "waterfowlers" than from the non-hunting public regarding this proposal ... such is life.
Thanks again to all of you for your interest.
Jerome
you have done your homework thats forsure and know one can knock you for trying. this should be more than enough for jaycee,Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy Boy
I only reiterated what I was told by the people I spoke with over the phone, names I will not mention as I am not going to be the cause of any infighting between Buddyboy and the people involved that I spoke with .Quote:
I will share with you what I know on the understanding that Jaycee will share with us what he has "found out" on his own.
All I am going to say is what I was told , that none were to receptive to the proposal. and I also did not encourage them to turn it down , I was just calling to get their general feeling.
As for Buddyboy go ahead and knock yourself out and keep pushing for it , but I for one will not support you .
I don't understand why anyone would go through so much trouble to try and shoot a swan. If you wanted to hunt them is there not areas down in the US where you can go and hunt them legally? I'd rather see a Cormorant season so we could get rid of some of the dirty beasts.
I guess he is passionate about the sport just like some are for Spring Bear hunt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LondonDave
Hello Guys,
A quick response to your comments:
1) Mojo Stick (Post # 101) ... thank you for posting your Tundra Swan observation but no "spring season" just a limited "fall season" like the Americans have.
2) London Dave (Post # 102) ... thank you for posting your Tundra Swan observation. I have previously addressed the Cormorant issue within this thread.
3) Mojo Stick (Post # 104) ... unfortunately some will ... such is life!
4) Jaycee (Post # 105) ... if you do not want to identify the individuals that you spoke to that is fine as I have already stated that there may be a difference of opinion "out there". I am not going to "fight" anyone over this proposal as everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion. However I will say that if they do not support Tundra Swan hunting then they do not support "waterfowl" hunting since "waterfowl" includes ducks, geese and swans.
Note: The other issue to consider is that since there are some individuals within the CWS and the MNR that do not believe in any waterfowl hunting then perhaps it would be best to "terminate" all waterfowl hunting in Ontario (perhaps even in all of Canada) and permit the Americans to harvest our share of the ducks and geese like they are currently doing with our share of the Tundra Swans ... sorry ... this is the way that I see the issue ... nothing personal.
5) London Dave (Post # 106) ... because it is the "right" thing to do otherwise we should just "fold up" our duck blinds and go home since the Americans can easily add our share of ducks and geese to their harvest (see note above).
Note: You can hunt the western population of Tundra Swans in Alaska, Montana, Nevada and Utah as well as the eastern population of Tundra Swans in Montana (there are two seasons), North Dakota, South Dakota, North Carolina, Virginia and New Jersey (pending). Do you think that it is fair for Canadians to have to travel to the United States to hunt our share of Tundra Swans? If you do then I believe that every "waterfowler" should be concerned about that belief ... see note above.
6) Great White (Post # 107) ... not only "passsionate" but also determined to see this Tundra Swan proposal through otherwise I may not support any "waterfowl" hunting in this province in the future. If people are interested in hunting ducks then they can travel to the United States to hunt them.
Note: I know for a fact that there are individuals within the CWS and the MNR who would be very pleased to see an end to all "waterfowl" hunting ... it is up to us to keep the "waterfowling" tradition alive. By the way Tundra Swan hunting was part of that "waterfowling" tradition in Ontario from 1615 to 1918. Consequently I believe that it would be nice to have a limited Tundra Swan season starting in 2015. That would be 400 years after our ancestors started hunting Tundra Swans in Ontario.
Thanks again to all of you for your interest.
Jerome
I would much rather just have the ability to shoot cormorants as opposed to a "season". Giving them a season indicates someone might want to eat them. I don't think I could, in good conscious, send my lab to retrieve one of them either. I would think he would give a look akin to something like "you gotta be #*&^ing me".Quote:
Originally Posted by LondonDave
Dyth
I guess if Swans were grey coloured ugly fish eaters, nobody would give a damn if they opened the season Huh?
Guess we can only hunt ugly critters to keep all the Nancys happy. ;p
Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk
Yeah that's what I meant. I'd just like to be able to shoot them.....period.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
Harlequin ducks , Yellow Rails and King Rails are also Waterfowl/Migratory birds. We do not hunt them either. There is a reason for this . Not all waterfowl needs to be hunted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy Boy
And there goes any credibility you had. These statements are not only baseless they are full out ridiculous. Give your head a shake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy Boy
Hello Guys,
A quick response to your comments:
1) Dyth Bringer (Post # 109) ... since the Cormorant is not a "game bird" there can not be a "season" for them. However if they were removed from the List of Protected Species then anyone could shoot them at any time. This is why Dr. S. Petrie suggested to me in January of 2010 to submit a "Proposal to Remove Mute Swans from the List of Protected Species" (see separate thread) when I initially discussed the potential of having a limited Tundra Swan harvest in the Province of Ontario.
2) Coco Zoo (Post # 110) ... you and some other "waterfowlers" see the hypocrisy in their argument and I thank you for posting your comment.
3) Jaycee (Post # 112) ... the eastern Tundra Swan population is more than 25% above their management goal and at their current population level may actually "trigger" an increase in the number of tags that will be available in future years ... so the Americans will get even more tags! Consequently your comparison to the Harlequin Duck is totally inappropriate and unwarranted.
Furthermore the Harlequin Duck was a legal bird in Ontario until the late 1990s or early 2000s but you can still hunt them in Alaska where they are still plentiful. However how many waterfowlers can distinquish a hen Bufflehead from a hen Harlequin Duck "in hand" let alone "in flight"?
The same argument for not having a Tundra Swan season due to the possible incidental harvest of a Trumpeter Swan could be and for the sake of this discussion should be applicable to protecting the Harlequin Duck in Ontario. I identified a hen Harlequin Duck "in fllight" once at Presqu'ile Provincial Park only because a drake Harlequin Duck was following her as they both flew pass my decoys. I notified the waterfowl technician that day and he posted a warning at the waterfowl registration office that Harlequin Ducks had been positively identified in the area. The same logical precaution could be applied during a limited Tundra Swan season in Ontario to provided further protection for our local Trumpeter Swans in addition to a "No Swan Hunt Zone" in some areas of the province.
Note: The Yellow Rail and King Rail are not plentiful in Ontario so there is no season for them just like there is currently no Sandhill Crane season in Ontario ... for now.
4) Jobber Shunting (Post # 113) ... you stated that I have lost "credibility" and that my statements were "baseless" and "full out ridiculous" however Mr. J. Malcolm (President, LPWA) cautioned us a few years ago during our Annual General Meeting that there were in fact CWS staff who would like to turn the entire Long Point area into a "no hunting" migratory bird sanctuary. One could say "as goes Long Point so goes the province" ... at least hypothetically speaking.
Note: Although I have designated the first $100,000.00 ($25,000.00 per year for the last four years) within my Charitable Gift Foundation to earn income for the implementation and monitoring of a limited Tundra Swan harvest in Ontario I have also designated the next $150,000.00 ($25,000.00 per year for the next six years) to earn income for other waterfowl related projects. Consequently what is good for those of us who would like to be able to hunt our share of Tundra Swans will eventually be good for those "waterfowlers" who may only want to hunt ducks.
Thanks again to all of you for your interest.
Jerome
Jerome,Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy Boy
My post in response to LondonDave was completely tongue-in-cheek. I was joking that only good tasting animals have seasons. LOL.
Dyth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy Boy
I was already thinking of this scenario before the harlequin's were brought up. Basically saying you don't want tundra swan hunting allowed do to the fact that trumpeters may accidentally be shot is like saying we should not allow duck hunting PERIOD as a harlequin may accidentally be taken, but thanks for bringing this up yourself Jaycee to discredit your own argument even more than you already have!!!
One thing is Jerome always has facts to back up his argument/credibility unlike everyone else in this thread that is against his proposal, he is not afraid to name names so to say, so his argument actually makes sense, instead of the he said she said bull that all the naysayers are bringing up. If you want to be credible Jaycee then lets hear some names!!!!!
And on another note with the harlequins and some of the other stupid regs in Ontario (like giving away our swan quota) the fine folks on the other side of lake Erie are allowed to shoot harlequins while we are not, but that is for another thread............
Those are the Regs. here in Ontario and we have to abide by them, if you don't like them , feel free to do otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by duckslayer
Further to your other post , if you want names, also feel free to call the Agencies like I did and you will have their names .
I find it so unbelievable that some people want to try and stop another species to hunt. Just imagine if we had done that with Elk, Turkey or doves.
Personally I can see no reason to hunt doves and if I dead I would need a minimum of 20 - 30 for a real meal, maybe they should not have brought that back. But just because I have no interest in hunting it doesn't mean it should have been blocked. Seems to me Buddyboy is putting his own money into this, has done a lot of research, time an effort, contributes to many other efforts to do with waterfowl and he is shot down for this.. Personally I think he is trying very hard to add a new species that we can enjoy.
Anti hunters can just sit back and watch hunters try and ban their own sport.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
Thank you Jaycee in proving my point yourself, proving your argument has zero credibility. Instead of bringing some facts to the table to prove your side of the argument you go all childish on us instead.
I personally don't care that we can not shoot harli's and that they can on the other side of the pond, do you know why??? Because I have personally never seen a harli and the reason we are not allowed to shoot them is the eastern population of harli's does not have a large enough population to withstand any hunting of the spices. I am more personally put off that they are allowed to shoot them on the south shore of Erie for that reason, I would rather see them also protected over there as well until the population is strong enough to have a 1 bird limit on them without having any long term effects on that population. So for you to bring the harli's into this argument was just plain dumb........ and this is why
Now to get back on topic of the swans, does the tundra swan have a huntable population in Ontario??? You damn straight there is!!!!!! Have I ever seen a tundra swan while out hunting??? Thousands every year!!!!!! Have I ever seen trumpeter swans while out hunting???? Yes.......... in fact for the last 3-4 years I have seen the same trumpeters that were talked about in this very thread. The key to having a season for tundras is to have the areas that are known to hold trumpeters as no swan hunting zones and only have the open season in areas that have the largest populations of tundras migrate through. That paired with a well thought out and detailed booklet/pamphlet on identifying trumpeters/tundras/mutes included with the tag if you are lucky enough to draw one. Maybe a website can be created and included in the booklet/pamphlet so the lucky hunters that draws a tag can visit the site and learn how to properly identify the different swans. It could include verbal information, lots of pictures of all swans in various states of flight and key identification features of each swan as well as videos of all the swans in various flight patterns/angles all in different light situations and again pointing out the key identification features of each of the swans. All stressing that it is up to the hunter to properly identify the swan they are about to shoot and the importance of having a ZERO accidental harvest of trumpeters for the risk of loosing the swan season. Even though it has been proven by Jerome that a few accidentals would not hurt the population, of coarse it would be great if we could keep it at ZERO.
I don't think guys are against this simply because they want to try to stop another species from being hunted. I talked with Jaycee offline about his reasons for being against a tundra swan hunt. His reasons are valid. Just as guys who support this hunt reasons are valid. I have done some reading on trumpters. If a breeding pair's female is killed, it isn't uncommon for the male to never take another mate (http://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/t...an/lifehistory). With such a limited population of trumpter swans (just over 1000 according to this article http://trumpeterswansociety.wordpres...ion-tops-1000/) in the province, that is a big deal. While I still support the idea, I can't stresss enough about how difficult logistically this would be not to have an accidental shooting.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
Dyth
Bingo!Quote:
Originally Posted by duckslayer
Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk
The excerpt below is a very interesting fact from a book by F.H. Kortright ,The Ducks , Geese and Swans of North America .
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/a...e-042/swan.jpg
Where the article calls them Whistling Swans , these are now called Tundra Swans.
In view of the above , we as hunters have a hard time protecting our image , do we want to seriously damage this image by needlessly killing Trumpeter Swans through miss identification ?
The outcry from the non-hunting public would put us all in very bad light, not just the one hunter that accidentally killed a Trumpeter Swan, but hunters as a whole.
I have seen the validity of the above information from Kortrights book illustrated before me just yesterday- Tundra Swan flocks that were very large and flying very, very high and at the same time , a couple of flocks [8 to 12 birds] of Trumpeter Swans flying almost within gun range.
The area that is proposed for the hunt is close to where they are trying to increase the population of Trumpeters (Hamilton, as well as Onondaga Farms , just south of Cambridge). This area as the swan flies is close to the Long Point area and the miss identification of the two Swan species makes it a very distinct and realistic possibility of Trumpeters being shot as they do fly closer to the ground and over hunters during the season.
With all this , do we really as ethical and moral hunters want to seriously damage our image just to kill one or two birds during the season ?
With regard to Buddyboys posting of where the are open seasons in the U.S. for Tundra Swans , all you have to do is go on the internet and you will find that these States are not areas where Trumpeter Swans are noted to be in. They don't run the same risk we do with shooting the wrong swan.
I am trying to look at the overall picture. Yes, I know that we do have a lot of Tundra Swans , but I do not want to see Trumpeter Swans killed accidentally when it has been so hard to bring them back from near extinction by a group of very dedicated, hard working individuals.
These are my personal views. While I recognize I will not change BuddyBoy's or Duckslayer's views, my view is worth mentioning nonetheless.
Jaycee, does this mean you also feel the mute swan should continue to be protected for fear of hunters killing the "wrong swan"? The Mute being about the size of a trumpeter but much more aggressive may eventually populate and expand to where they themselves lower the populations of both native swans through competition ... generally, delisting a species (such as the mute or the cormorant) takes too long and by the time it happens the damage is done and the population is already too high for hunting to affect it.
I am not versed on the possible competition problems between the tundra and trumpeter swans ... if the tundras "overpopulate" will this affect the populations of trumpeters thorough competition? If this is so, should not the tundras be kept under control now if their numbers are climbing above management numbers? I am not sure if there is research in this area or what it has uncovered.
Personally, I like the "controlled (limited) hunt for tundra swans" in Ontario (although I would likely not take advantage of it) ... and I would really like and insist on the delisting of mute swans which I believe are going to cause more problems than anticipated very soon as their nunbers are growing fast.
My thought is that since the number of trumpeters is so low, the risk of accidentally shooting one is also low, no?
I dunno, if you don't know what your shooting, don't shoot. Its really that simple to me. Of course, I'm not meat hungry, and shoot everything that comes into range like A LOT of others are, so I have no problem watching birds come thru my spread and fly away. I also have enough experience that I usually know whats headed for my spread long before they are in range, so its a non issue for me.
Can anyone properly ID these guys?? Well within range.....
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c1...ps67e2ca55.jpg
S.
A Mute Swan is more easily identified , by it's orange bill and the knob on it , verses the all black bill of a Trumpeter [use binoculars if they are at any distance]. The Mute Swan is also not vocal as it flies [quiet] as apposed to the other two species.
There are a few along the Grand and Speed rivers in Cambridge .
To answer your question, no I do not feel they should be protected, as they are an introduced species [not native] they are from central Eurasia.
They are easily identified , and they are the most aggressive/combative of the waterfowl , driving off any other waterfowl in the area, I have seen this numerous times on the river , as soon as they arrive all other waterfowl usually leave and give them a wide berth.
Just a note ... I have hundreds of mute swans near my decoys throughout each year, and they are quite vocal even in the air with a number of different sounds (but they are softer sounds than other swans). Although I can easily identify a mute, that is due to experience, but I am not sure that there would not be more mistakes on trumpeters made from a mute delisting than a tundra limited season. I am not convinced all hunters would be able to see the difference, especially if there are alot of mutes in the area and a trumpeter happens by once in a while.
Even with this expectation, I still support the mute delist and tundra season, mistakes can happen, but I don't expect enough to affect the population.
Are there any numbers on how many of each of these native swans are taken by the native tribes each year? Has their harvest had a population effect?
could the same not be said for duck hunting and accidentally shooting a harliquin or black duck??
So duck hunting all together realistically should be stopped until all species rebound.
Based on the swan exercise nobody could disagree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinker
Hello Guys,
A quick response to some of your comments:
1) Duck Slayer (Post # 117) ... thank you for mentioning that the Harlequin Duck is a legal bird on the south side of Lake Erie as it brought a new dimension to this discussion.
2) Great White (Post # 119) ... you may not know this but perhaps the only reason that we now have a Mourning Dove season is because when I first discussed the possibility of having a limited Tundra Swan season with Dr. S. Petrie (Executive Director, LPW) in January of 2010 he suggested that if I wanted to do something for the "hunting community" that I should submit a proposal for a Mourning Dove season rather than a limited Tundra Swan season. He also advised me that he would support my proposal if I submitted one, that Long Point Waterfowl had already conducted a public opinion survey regarding a potential Mourning Dove season, that he would provide me with a copy of the results of that public opinion survey and that the OFAH would support my proposal as well since the OFAH already had prepared a "position statement" (as I recall the term that was used) regarding a potential Mourning Dove season. I eventually submitted my "Proposal for a Mourning Dove Harvest in the Province of Ontario" in September of 2010 (see separate thread regarding this topic) and it was subsequently discussed and accepted by the Ontario Waterfowl Advisory Committee (OWAC) during a meeting that was held in November of 2010. The minutes of that OWAC meeting however indicated that the OFAH had previously discussed the topic prior to the submission of my proposal.
Note: The OFAH had previously discussed the topic of a Mourning Dove season but had not submitted a proposal for a Mourning Dove season.
Note: I will post a separate special response regarding the financial committment to the "waterfowling community" that I made in December of 2010. Thank you for your continued support.
3) Duck Slayer (Post # 120) ... well said ... thank you.
4) Dyth Bringer (Post # 121) ... although I share the same concern that you have expressed to Great White the CWS has already examined this concern within their Tundra Swan Season Assessment and has determined that it should not prevent a limited Tundra Swan season in Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and maybe even a part of Quebec (under special consideration) since the Tundra Swans have now expanded into that province. Please read the CWS Tundra Swan Season Assessment for the details.
5) Jaycee (Post # 123) ... the continental Trumpeter Swan population has been nearly doubling every ten (10) years since that book was published (I have a copy that I bought in the early 1980s).
Furthermore the Pacific Coast Trumpeter Swan Population (26,000 in 2010) is close to the maximum that the existing wintering habitat can tolerate while both the Rocky Mountain Trumpeter Swan Population (10,000 in 2010) and the Interior Trumpeter Swan Population (10,000 in 2010) have doubled between 2005 to 2010. Finally the previous downfall in all waterfowl populations was the result of the unregulated commercial market hunting that was terminated by the Migratory Bird Treaty Act of 1918. Furthermore I recently read that the Trumpeter Swan while once common east of the Rocky Mountains was never plentiful just like the Tundra Swan while once common along the Pacific Coast was never plentiful suggesting that these two species of swans appeared to have divided up the continent between themselves.
Although you may currently have a point with regards to the eastern population of Tundra Swans the USFWS is currently considering additional opportunities to hunt Tundra Swans that will include the incidental harvest of Trumpeter Swans in those states.
Furthermore in regards to the western population of Tundra Swans the USFWS already has a general swan season in Montana, Nevada and Utah. Each of these states have Trumpeter Swans migrating through them. Please review the Utah swan hunter course for more details.
I appreciate your concern for the Trumpeter Swan population and I value your participation within this thread however the CWS has already taken this concern under consideration. Please read the CWS Tundra Swan Season Assessment for the details.
6) Gadwall (Post # 124) ... I agree that there will probably be a greater risk to the Trumpeter Swan population with the removal of the Mute Swan from the List of Protected Species (since anyone will be able to shoot them at anytime without any limits) than with the introduction of a limited Tundra Swan season (since only a select group of very dedicated "waterfowlers" will have a tag to harvest just one Tundra Swan). This is probably why it is taking so long to remove the Mute Swan from the list ... how will the CWS and NMR manage that? I have a suggestion that I may present to Mr. J. Hughes (Head of Population Management, CWS) in the near future.
The Tundra Swans breed a lot further north (arctic) than the Trumpeter Swans so competition with the Trumpeter Swans is not a concern.
Please read my comments to Jaycee in (5) above regarding the distribution of the three (3) Trumpeter Swan populations vs the two (2) Tundra Swan populations.
7) Sinker (Post # 125) ... you are right (even without any attempt to identify the species of swan) the fact that there are so many Tundra Swans compared to the number of Trumpeter Swans the odds are that very few (if any) will be shot. However because there are so few Trumpeter Swans it is important to minimize that risk wherever and whenever possible without preventing a Tundra Swan season. The official policy of The Trumpeter Swan Society (TTSS) is to minimize the risk of an incidental harvest of a Trumper Swan ... not to eliminate the risk. Please review their web site for more details.
Although the swans in your photograph may have been in range at the time you took the photograph I have always found that a picture makes the "birds" look smaller than they actually are. I suspect that the birds in your photograph are Trumpeter Swans but regardless I would not shoot unless I heard them (Tundra Swans) calling.
8) Jaycee (Post # 126) ... I agree about the Trumpeter Swan and the Tundra Swan being vocal during flight. Consequently if I was a totally blind waterfowl guide I could without any doubt tell you when to shoot and when not to shoot a native swan. The Mute Swan has various sounds (often a course hissing sound) totally unlike either of our native swans.
9) Gadwall (Post # 127) ... the Mute Swan will displace every living creature nearby ... they are the "marsh bully" of the waterfowl world and will not be missed. They are also known to attack humans and I have personally seen this happen at Long Point ... three women in a paddle boat vs one mean Mute Swan ... needless to say the Mute Swan won as the three unarmed women (although one of them had a hand paddle) retreated back to shore within a "sinking" paddle boat.
The native (Canadian and American) harvest of Tundra Swans is estimated to be less than 5,000 from the eastern population and less than 5,000 from the western population with no estimate (that I have seen) regarding the Trumpeter Swan harvest since they do not need to identify the species of swan before they shoot. However most would be Tundra Swans since they breed a lot further north (arctic) than the Trumpeter Swans. Please note that the natives also harvest swan eggs during the nesting period in addition to their "subsistence" harvests during the spring and fall migrations.
10) Great White (Post # 128) ... well yes ... that was basically what I was suggesting in a facetious manner when I suggested that we terminate all "waterfowl" hunting and permit the Americans to harvest our share of the ducks and geese like they are currently doing with our share of the swans.
Thanks again to all of you for your interest.
Jerome
Buddy Boy ;
Re. your post above , it appears that you are trying to take all the credit for the reinstallation of the Mourning Dove Hunt , what happened to all the efforts by The OFAH and all it's membership that had for years been pushing for this hunt to be reinstated?
There have also been many members that sent letters and signed petitions to the MNR and CWS, all asking for the Mourning Dove hunt to be reinstated.
Concerning the Trumpeter Swan , you keep giving us population figures for these birds however they are for the Pacific Coast and Rocky Mountain and interior population of 26,000, 10,000, 10,000, respectively. These figures are all for the U.S. population .
We are in Canada , and in particular Ontario, what we are concerned with is a small population of 800 birds as per figures quoted by The Trumpeter Swan Coalition based out of Hamilton Ontario.
If by accident , 10 birds were shot accidentally [ as is likely due to their propensity to fly closer over land and hunters] during a hunt in this small part of the Province , that would take out a lot of birds from the area flocks which would be very devastating to the progress made by this group of dedicated people who have been trying for over 30 years to get this area population up to what it is now .
Food for thought, we have over 5000 Woodland Caribou here in Ontario, there is no season for them here but they are hunted in Quebec and elsewhere.
As I have said before some things we just should not hunt .
You have been expressing "your opinion " and I am expressing mine also with facts included.
Hello Guys,
A quick response to Jaycee's comments (Post # 130):
1) Mourning Dove Season:
I am obviosly not attempting to take all the credit for the Mourning Dove season as you have alleged for the following reasons:
a) I credited Dr. S. Petrie for having made the suggestion to me.
b) I credited Dr. S. Petrie for his pledge of support for my proposal should I submit one.
c) I credited Long Point Waterfowl for having conducted a Public Opinion Survey.
d) I credited Dr. S. Petrie for having provided me with a copy of the Public Opinion Survey.
e) I credited the OFAH for having already prepared a "position statement" on such a season.
f) I credited the Ontario Waterfowl Advisory Committee (OWAC) for having accepted my proposal.
I also have to give credit to another individual (Dean) who had previously questioned the CWS about a Mourning Dove season and who subsequently shared his original letter and the CWS response with me (you can read about this within the appropriate Mournimg Dove thread).
I also have to give credit to those individuals who submitted letters of support for my proposal after reading about it within the Hunt Ontario and LPWA "upland" and "waterfowl" forums.
However I have to question you about a few things that I do not understand:
a) I joined the OFAH in 1978 and I do not recall ever having read a news article, a feature article, a request for support, a petition or anything else regarding a Mourning Dove season until after I had submitted my Mourning Dove proposal in September of 2010 and the acceptance of it by the OWAC members in November of 2010. It was not until sometime in 2011 that I started to see any "news articles" within the Ontario Out Of Doors magazine about a possible Mourning Dove season. Do you know of anything that was published within the Ontario Out Of Doors magazine about a possible Mourning Dove season that predates my Mourning Dove proposal? If so please advise me.
b) I know of a few individuals who submitted letters of support (either by e-mail, fax or mail) as stated above but I am not aware of any campaign by the OFAH to have us submit letters of support for a Mourning Dove season ... do you? If so please advise me.
c) I recently received an e-mail from Dr. T. Quinney (Wildlife Biologist, OFAH) requesting support for the Spring Bear Hunt and I complied with his request by submitting a letter of support even though I have not, do not and will not hunt bears. In fact I will probably never go deer hunting again (have not been since the early 1990s). Was there ever such a request by the OFAH for letters of support for a Mourning Dove season? If so please advise me.
d) I do not know of any petitions (either paper or electronic) in support of a Mourning Dove season ... do you? If so please advise me.
Note: Dr. S. Petrie reviewed my Mourning Dove proposal before it was submitted and never questioned the wording of my proposal.
2) Trumpeter Swan Populations:
The Interior Trumpeter Swan Population includes the Ontario population but you do not seem to understand this fact.
Furthermore the five year Trumpeter Swan rangewide survey is conducted by the CWS and the USFWS during mid summer when most of the birds are in Canada.
The following is from The Trumpeter Swan Society web site:
The most recent rangewide survey conducted by the U.S. and Canada during summer 2010 found a total of 46,225 Trumpeter Swans in North America, including 34,249 adults and 11,976 cygnets.
The following may be of interest to you as well:
Total Trumpeter Swans found on the six previous rangewide surveys were: 1968 - 3,722; 1975 - 5,085; 1980 - 8,847; 1985 - 10,908; 1990 - 15,625; 1995 - 19,756; 2000 - 23,647; and 2005- 34,803.
Maybe this is why the CWS is moving forward with this proposal at this time.
3) Trumpeter Swan Coalition Group:
They will have an opportunity to present their concerns to the CWS during the Public Consultation Hearings that are required as per the Management Plan before any new Tundra Swan season is granted. You are a bit ahead of yourself at this point in time.
4) Woodland Caribou:
I am not in a position to discuss that topic. However I am not sure how that topic relates to Tundra Swans? Maybe you should start a thread about Woodland Caribou within a "Big Game" forum.
Thanks again to all of you for your interest.
Jerome