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We see them as decals on vehicles,flags on boats and bumper stickers. So,should we ban them,also, as some of our American neighbors are now actively campaigning or should we regard this controversy as politically correct attempts at revisionist history? Does it really matter in this country?
Confederate Flag = Nazi Flag.
Yes, both are a significant part of (some) people's history... but neither one has a relevant place of expression in today's society.
They both stood for the dehumanization and subjugation of people. They both stood for countless atrocities. They both still stand for hate.
The flag that is currently regarded as the Confederate Flag became popular during the Civil Rights period. It was not flown on state buildings in the US South until that time. It was basically white southerners way of giving a big "F you" to black folks.
Most, if not all of the seceding states referenced slavery as the reason for their secession.
Even the designer of the Confederate flag referered to it as a white man's flag.
While it may have an elegant and nice looking design, that flag represents hatred towards black folks and treason against the Union.
To answer your post... History, no and no.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
The sooner they get rid of that flag the better off they will be----both black and white. It's a reminder of an even more racist past.
x10 well said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddmott
To clarify, they aren't getting rid of the flag. It won't be against the law or anything for individuals to fly it.Quote:
Originally Posted by HaroldH
It will simply be disallowed on government and public buildings.
The fact it is 2015 and this is just beginning to happen in the southern U.S. says a lot about discrimination/racial tension in the American South.
Look who's calling the kettle black. Should we ban the British flag and quite possibly the Canadian flag for the atrocities and racisim shown the natives way back when and still today. Leave it alone and it shouldn't even be up here for discussion.
Was the British or Canadian flags been used specifically for the purpose of causing fear and stirring racism?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo D
If so then yes, we should take them down too.
The confederate battle flag is not even the confederate flag, it is specifically a flag used in battle in the civil war. This flag has been used specifically for the purpose of racism in the southern US. The same way as people use the Nazi flag to incite racism the confederate flag was not put up for the purpose of showing history but to cause problems.
No Bias in that site at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter John
If the flag is used to incite racism, which it was in the 60s and done so by the government of the time, then it is this History that should also be considered.
Yeah... that's why govt's have said "sorry" (in some cases numerous times), paid reparations, launched public education campaigns, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo D
Also, you're comparing nation(s)' flags to that of a rebel cause. If the south had won... then maybe they'd get a final say in what/when/why/where the rebel flag is flown.
x2!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
x10!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
x20!Quote:
Originally Posted by seabast
But i've seen that flag worn better....
Friends and relatives living in the South have always said that an undercurrent of sympathy/empathy for The Confederacy has always existed in small towns and cities for generations since the end of The Civil War by both whites and African Americans alike,despite the segregationist tribulations of the early 60's. Recognizing that current efforts to eliminate the Battle Flag from official state government sites is an effort to establish a dialogue leading to relieving racial angst may serve only to polarize sentiments leading to even further rancor...the exact opposite of the best of intentions. Time will tell......soon.
If some dumb azzz with a gun had not shot up a church well wearing this flag would we even be talking about it ,we blame the flag and blame the gun ,but it was a kid that did the deed not the flag or the gun ,,,,Dutch
Yeah... i know some of them. They live just down the street from the Native Americans who miss being raped in the residential schools or being left to die of simple ailments by white doctors. And they're just around the corner from that Jew who really loves oversized nat-gas ovens.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Y'know, maybe you're onto something? I mean, certainly, prior to last week nobody had ever talked about racism in the south, nor ever identified the confederate flag as a symbol of hatred and oppression.Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchhunter
He was not wearing the flag......Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchhunter
Another hands up don't shoot myth.
This flag that is in so much dispute , was originally the "Battle Flag of The Army of Tennessee " and then adopted as the Confederacy Flag.
Army of Tennessee https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...l_Flag.svg.png Battle flag Active November 1862 – April 1865 Country https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...865%29.svg.png Confederate States of America Branch https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...merica.svg.png Confederate States Army Role Largest Confederate field army in Western Theater Engagements American Civil War Commanders Notable
commandersAlbert Sidney Johnston
Braxton Bragg
Joseph E. Johnston
It was a symbol over a hundred years ago of rebellion against the British influence in the north. It has come to mean many things since then as people continue to revise history even here. Look it up and just look at it for what it was. It has changed a lot as a symbol since the day they ran it up in Tennessee. That's why everyone is so confused. Hell. If it looks like something that no one likes now then get rid of it. If it offends people then we all get to speak. Cheers.
The Confederate flag existed and had a strong southern connection before the civil war. The south did not want to join the union and fought to retain their unique southern identity. The flag gained recognition and connection to slavery following the war.
The Confederate flag has a much deeper meaning in the southern states than we northeners understand.
If white trash wacko was wearing a Happy Face patch on his jacket - would be ban Happy Face logos?
You can't let a psycopaths actions alter behavior of normal society.
Racism is in a persons head, not on a piece of cloth.
That flag is not going anywhere. For starters - its unconstitutional.
Thanks for that roper x2 on thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Roper
All this talk of the confederate battle flag just makes me want to listen to Freebird
I was thinking Tom Petty's " Rebels"
I was thinking more of Neil Young's "Southern Man".
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...s-over/396482/
A long read, but it tells a lot about where the flag came from and why.
The Confederacy was formed to preserve the subjugation of the black race as slaves for economic purposes.
The Confederate Battle Flag was a symbol and rallying cry for this.
If the Confederate Battle Flag is not then considered a racist symbol, then I do not understand what sort of weird logic might be going on in your head.
Just to clarify, that flag was never adopted as the national flag of the CSA.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
The CSA had three national flags during their brief history.
- The Stars and Bars
- The Stainless Banner
- The Blood Stained Banner
In an official capacity, the "Confederate Flag", was only ever official in the following cases:
Square version
Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia.
Rectangular version
Battle Flag of the Army of Tennessee
Second Confederate Navy Jack.
Bingo!Quote:
Originally Posted by justinmch
So your ok with someone flying the Nazi flag or swastika, as until hitler , it was an ornament on many things for centuries. Now it has a much more sinister meaning, much like the rebel flag. In Pefferlaw a few years ago they made someone take down their confederate flag, but it was because they also had a noose on the same flagpole.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roper
I don't see anyone being "OK" with anything,but,when does freedom of speech and expression come into play? I recognize that Americans have the First Amendment,but,here in Canada,we have no such right.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
When it offends a whole group of people. On purpose!
Ok..hang on here guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
1. Whether or not you view the flag as racist, or you view it as a part of Southern Heritage. It is a flag, that on its surface, and design is not offensive in any way ( meaning, it has no overt symbolism that one might take offense to).
2. A flag can signify different things to different people. You cannot speak to a persons emotion, or intent. Nor can you regulate it. If you say ban the Confederate Flag, then you better hit every Wal Mart, Bed Bath and Beyond, etc and confiscate all the white bed sheets too, to save anyone who might associate it with the robes of the KKK. Heck, maybe we should ban publication of any books like to Kill a Mockingbird, since it references slavery and racism....goodness.
3. A person may fly whatever flag he / or she so chooses. If a guys a proud Southerner from Georgia, and wants one on the back of his truck, so people know he's not a yankee, then why not? One particular chapter in the book that is the history of the South does not brand anyone who flys the flag a racist.
Heck. I fly the Red Ensign ( the true and real flag of Canada), because it represents a time when this Country was at its greatest.
......I also have served for years with our regular flag on my shoulder and flying from the antennas of the troop carriers I was in.....
Yes as an individual you can, and should be able to fly it , but on a state building, for ALL the people, not acceptable.
Well said Bluebulldog. . Too much politically correct bs . On CNN they were discussing if they should take down statues of Thomas Jefferson because some may see it as being racist.
Perhaps.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
But let's call a spade a spade here.
This never would have been an issue if that nut job hadn't been pictured with one.
The State Capital Building ( Georgia I believe) would have gone on flying it, and no one would have said a word.
Just because some whack job writes a manifesto of hate, and HE identifies with the flag, doesn't necessarily mean the intent of others are in collusion or similar to his.
Symbolism is just that....a symbol. But you can argue to the ends of the earth the intent with which it is used.
You mean like a crucifix?
Precisely.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
This is just another part of the BS that is happening all over - people are offended by just about anything these days - and some how I can't find any constitution or document that says people can't be offended - they want the Washington Pro football team to change its name from the Washington Red Skins cause it offends some natives - some people want to change the name of Uncle Ben's rice - Aunt Jemima's pancake syrup - when is this nonsense going to end - the confederate battle flag has meaning to southerners and to most it has nothing do with slavery - many brave men fought and died for a cause - and it wasn't slavery - there are a lot of things going on today that offend me - that is just part of life -
Comparing the Nazi and confederate flags is a real stretch - the Nazi flag represented a system of outright murder and hatred - while the confederate flag represented a system that wanted freedom from northern influence - there isn't a flag that exists that doesn't have some bad history tied to it - the stars and strips was shown while native Indians were eliminated - under the British flag all kind of atrocities were committed - so I say - let it fly -
Of course they fought and died for slavery, because they were trying to defend their way of life , which included the enslavement of other humans.
Wrong!!! History does not support that contention!Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
I think the village of Whitesboro in New York may have a problem.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...pskihdruvx.jpg
What? There's nothing wrong with that....Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter John
It shows that they are tolerant and encourage not only homosexual unions, but interracial as well......the fellow on the right is clearly embracing his lover of 1st nations origin...
Now,cut that out. Fishermccann's head will explode. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
Deflection, deflection, deflection.
I like this one Attachment 30046
Really?Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
This is a friendly discussion forum.
Or did your reference to the crucifix not result in the moral outrage that you intended?
Pretty obvious that your politics ( and take on human nature) lies more in the GTA portion of your life, less so the Kawarthas.
Time changed....
Can't be for real.....
I have no problem with that one either.Quote:
Originally Posted by cantcatchacold
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
Toronna life seems to bring on the " white liberal guilt "
I have no problems with that flag being flown by private persons, but not on government building ,which are supposed to represent ALL of the people. The crucifix comment was to point out others get upset about a hijab, flag, crucifix, so what is the difference. The hijab to some people is bad because of what it represents about 50% of the population,( female), well what about what that flag represents to 50%, ( likely more), of the population, ( black) of that state.
Spend less time worrying about what might outrage others.....good lord, i take back my earlier post about the Newfie and the moose.....because I'm only 50% Newfie.....where do I get off "offending" that segment of the population.....Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
What about that segment of the American population that decided to burn the flag? Or are those numbers not significant enough to decide that no flags shall fly...ever?
Are you completely out of your gourd? The "freedom" that those Southern States wanted was the freedom to enslave blacks for economic reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
If you want to talk about Union or British atrocities towards Native Americans, I am fairly certain that most will agree that was bad. But trying to rationalize one set of horrors by saying "They were bad too", is ridiculous.
Well said FM ! It always blows me away how some white folk think that this depiction of the large black population noted above is ok and people should get use to it. It also bothers me how some white folk completely ignore or choose to leave out the real history of the south and twist it to their liking so they come out looking like saints.Quote:
Originally Posted by FishingMonkey
I say try to get to know people of other races and hear it from their perspective instead of just assuming you know whats best for everyone ! I have family that are descendants of slaves and have heard real family stories of extreme racism. I also have a brother -in-law who is of Japanese descent who's entire family were put in camps during the second world war and lost everything. Everything changes for entire families when you are a victim of racism.
Happy Saturday http://youtu.be/jREUrbGGrgM
Brings back memories for sure ! Or flashbacks ! LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by cantcatchacold
How bout you http://youtu.be/QxIWDmmqZzY
When I hear freebird I immediately think of Waynes World ! lolQuote:
Originally Posted by cantcatchacold
Haha yeah man
I'll just keep the southern rock going, grab a beer http://youtu.be/D0VWmYHkPy4
It's called cultural cleansing - ISIS does it whenever they take over a location - get rid of everything they don't like - http://video.foxnews.com/v/432088500...#sp=show-clips
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
Yep...or deem as "offensive."
You gotta read this - http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/...l-fascism.html
Most people i know thinks I means your a redneck and a proud one.Taken the flag down isn't going to fix the problem
It appears that "taking it down" may only serve to make things worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3030
Way to go!! More power to her I say!!
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...tion/29383973/
Don't like where this is heading. Any bets or takers on more rioting and looting.
With all the hoopla going on the last few days, it is important to remember that everyone affected by the Civil War, Union or Confederate, enslaved or free, black or white, were humans doing what they thought was right. No matter which side they were on, the combatants and their loved ones suffered hardship and loss.
I support the position of the organizations and businesses who have decided to discontinue producing and/or marketing consumer items that are "stand alone" Confederate flag depictions. They are not telling anyone that it is wrong to wear or fly symbols of the Confederate States of America. They are saying that they no longer feel that it is appropriate for themselves to sell paraphernalia which is offensive to many Americans. I believe in freedom of choice. They have made a choice. I can now choose to continue to support those businesses or corporations, or not.
If an individual chooses to wear, tattoo, paint, or fly the Confederate battle flag, that is their business. Too, if a corporation chooses not to manufacture or market those items, that is their business.
The argument that the Civil War was about "states rights", as much or moreso than slavery doesn't hold water. If it was about states rights at all, it was about a states rights to legal slavery. The confederate states had no problem crying "states rights" when the United States government and abolitionists endeavoured to create laws that would lead to an eventual demise of the institution of slavery, yet cried foul when non-slave states declared they would defy a federal law requiring them to arrest and return fugitive slaves found in their territories. In essence they claimed states rights when it benefitted them yet called for the federal government to ignore states rights when it didn't.
When it comes to state governments flying the Confederate battle flag on or near their buildings, why should a black person who likely has ancestors who were enslaved have to endure walking under that every day? Would it be appropriate to expect a Jewish person have to tolerate the same under a swastika?
For some people, the flag represents the South. For most people, Old Glory represents the entire nation. Nobody fought overseas for the battle flag of the Confederacy. It is hardly representative of black southerners.
For the record, I am in awe of the tenacity and spirit of the Confederate armies, particularly the Army of Northern Virginia. Generals Lee, Jackson, Longstreet et al were brilliant and honourable men. They and their armies fought so well, for so long, with so little. They fought valiantly, heroically, and with honour. But the "Cause" was wrong then. It is wrong today.
I have a Confederate battle flag hanging in my basement, in historical context, next to a 34 star Union flag, which represents the correct Union flag flown during the battles at Second Manassas, Antietam, and Gettysburg, which most pique my interest. I am certainly not ashamed of that. But would I fly one from my car antenna? No.
Yep!! What he said X2.
I get a real kick out of the sources some folks quote on this forum. Fox news???? Aren't they the same people who confused a banner showing a sex toy in the LGBT parade with an ISIS flag???Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
Pathetic!!!:scream:
http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-...parade-2015286
No that was CNN> Says right on your link.Quote:
Originally Posted by HaroldH
Sorry---I get the 2 confused. But at least I don't confuse either one with a news org!!
Point....1 : 1 :joker:Quote:
Originally Posted by HaroldH
But now the CBC says we are more racist then the States.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/racism...ccue-1.2831066
We are continuing to hear people calling others racist - to a point where I wonder just what is racism - is it stating some facts about some particular race - is it a conclusion one gets from experience - it is the fact that most people want their children to marry someone of their own race - or the desire to mostly associate with people of your own race and culture - if so I guess we all have some racism in us to a certain degree - wouldn't you say -
Ah...calling someone "racist" or "homophobe"...
The last ditch effort of the Liberal, whining, left, who burdened with guilt, refuses to allow open debate on the subject of rights and freedoms, in the context of persons taking offense to perceived slights.
It is not through one swift action we will see our own rights and freedoms eroded. It will be through a repetitive, series of minor incursions done in the name of "the greater good", by well intentioned idiots.
Exactly! It's usually used by those Liberal types that find themselves on the untenable,loosing side of a common sense discussion. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
^^ well put.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
If we believe in free speech and the fact that every one has a right to fight for what thy believe in ,then how can we ban flags or anything for that matter ,,I grew up with the dukes of hazard and the battle flag .one of the best family tv shows ever made and thy are pulling all the reruns from tv what next ...I will fly the battle flag every chance I get ,,yes it means different things to different people so what ,,,,,Dutch
I love how folks on this site simply cannot grasp the meaning of the term "ban".
There is no flipping ban!
A proposal has been forwarded that a contentious and questionable flag - revered by some, despised by others - no longer be flown on publicly owned buildings.
How is that a ban? Any ONE can wear it on their clothes, fly it from their yard, sticker it to their car, tattoo it to their forehead if they so choose.
Corporations can continue to use it, produce it, sell it however they see fit. Some just happen to feel that it doesn't hold a place in today's society and have stopped stocking it.
Still not a ban.
FFS.
well if thy do not allow the flag to be flow at government buildings that is a ban ,thy removed them from ebay so that means ebay has banned them ,,.it is all in how you look at it ,nobody said it was a full complete ban but a slow steady removal of are rights ,
Use it which ever way you please,
The verb to ban means to forbid something from being or happening; the word can also be used as a noun. A school board might put a ban on all books that refer to Jefferson's mistress if they don't want anyone reading about her.
If your parents are upset by how much time you spend online, they might ban computers in the house. But if you're smart, you can just use your phone or laptop at school. To ban something is to put a ban on it. Something with a ban on it is said to be banned. A ban can vary from your grandmother's ban on people wearing shoes in her house to a government's ban on printing certain stories in the newspaper.
Wikipedia. ban 1
(băn)tr.v. banned, ban·ning, bans 1. a. To prohibit (an action) or forbid the use of (something), especially by official decree: banned smoking in theaters; banned pesticides in parks. See Synonyms at forbid.
b. To refuse to allow (someone) to do something, go somewhere, or be a participant; exclude: a coach who was banned from the sidelines for two games; a gambler who was banned from the club.
2. South African Under the former system of apartheid, to deprive (a person suspected of illegal activity) of the right of free movement and association with others.
Your right to show a segment of the population that you hate them? that you feel that slavery was good? because that is what that flag represents to a large segment of the population.Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchhunter
If you feel that is why the flag was originally flown then I don't think that anyone here would disagree with you but I think that the dialogue here centres upon whether or not that was the original intention of the flag.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
That is what it means to an inbred cracker from Georgia! I know that using cracker may sound bad but if you look it up they themselves use it with pride.
To the majority of people that flag doesn't signify hate or slavery - it is just a symbol of a time in history - putting that flag on the top of a car is the farthest thing from hate or slavery - now you have yahoos talking of renaming streets that are named after confederate generals - and taking their statues down - this political correctness thing is out of hand - they should let the people of SC decide if they want the flag flown over the capital - and if then some people are offended - so what - I wonder if Indians are offended when they see the American flag knowing what was done to them in times gone by - or the Irish when they see the union jack flying on a pole - or the Mexicans when they see the flag of the long star state - it seems people don't have enough to do and are continually looking for something to complain about - as I have often said - what we need is some hard times to get people's feet back on the ground and then have to spend time finding something to eat and some shelter - then they won't have time for this PC BS -
very well said ,I agree 100 percent ,,,DutchQuote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
Winning post right here !!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
Have to strongly disagree with that since this is a white persons point of view. Unless we have a forum member that is from the south and is also black then we would have a discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by wrench2009
Why would you "strongly disagree" with it simply because it is a white person's point of view. Is the only authentic point of view from a black person from the southern united states? These are all authentic points of views from authentic people. I will add joepa that perhaps we should not fly the candadian flag for the treatment of indigenous peoples in canada. Perhaps no flags should be flown because through their longevity there will be some regret. We are canadians commenting on a culture that is not ours but it is a culture with a rich history and like all cultures it bears some regret. I dont think that it precludes flying a flag. Dont blame the flag that is too simplistic. Instead look at the people for what they are. Romans burned christians as human torches a few thousand years ago. So dont visit rome. And on and on. All points are valid sir. Cheers and happy canada day and independence day to all. Its our history.Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
What country does the confederate flag represent, it represents an ideal which a lot of people who live in the south do not agree with so it doesn't belong on any public buildings.They should have been forced to take it down by the federal government when they lost the war.
do provinces in Canada need federal approval of provincial flags and where they can be displayed ?
http://www.gov.pe.ca/photos/original/ECO_FlagPro_14.pdf
There's some good info about pei there. There is a national flag act in canada from the sixties. It's more about protocol than laws. Hope that helps.
did anybody watch the SONS OF LIBERATY last night ,,,great show ,,the americans must really hate the british flag should it be banned to ,,,this political correctness is going way to far ..D
Another big mistake people make is that they judge people who lived long ago under entirely different circumstances with the attitude that exists today - slavery for instance was a common thing throughout history - as long as recorded history exists - tribes made war on other tribes and took prisoners and made slaves out of them - many people were bond servants - that is just the way things were - it wasn't until the 18th century that the moral question of slavery began - and I'll tell you something - there are things being done today that no doubt will be looked at in the future as something terrible - and people will wonder how in the world was these things done -
So when you realize that they are wrong, you fix them, not carry on because that is the way they were done in the past.
I'm just not sure what an all out ban on the flag fixes. It just kind of seems revisionist and patronizing to me. I think that if the United States is serious about addressing what is an extremely complicated and lengthy cultural lack of dialogue with the black minority and its treatment they may want to look at making reparations. Now don't you all jump all over me too bad for that. It's just a white Canadian guys opinion which according to some shouldn't matter anyway. This is a very important dialogue IMO. CheersQuote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
Reparations - what do you think the welfare system is - generations have been living off the public - food stamps, housing, medical care, education, cash - you name it -
Yeah. I know the r word is not very favourable to most Americans. I get it. It's a tough issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
Exactly !Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
52 % of South Carolina is black, if they put it to a vote do you think that flag would still fly?
That is a racist statement, no whites on welfare? Okay no money how about giving them a fair chance at jobs? You always bring up the second amendment, well how about "All men are created equal ".Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
I toured colonial America this past spring to get some focus on a book I'm working on and I heard rush limbaugh offer the same opinion. I'm not saying right or wrong it's not really my business but it certainly is a prevailing attitude
In order to have perspective one person on a forum speaking on behalf of the U.S doesn't qualify as authentic. It may however give a look into his or her social group and beliefs bad or good. My thoughts being a white Canadian male having been raised in an environment of mixed family relations , marriages and acceptance of all see from a different point of view. A black American from the south on this forum would have an opinion based on family history and experiences(fact). Unfortunately we do not have a forum member from the south so we it would be speculation knowing his or hers mind. I cannot imagine seeing that flag being flown and being a black American living in the south and the history that goes with it .Quote:
Originally Posted by flowerjohn
Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
Good point. Yes I was simply stating that his and each of our opinions are our own no matter what that opinion is.
Many forget that many southern blacks fought and died under that flag. There was one or two states that years ago had a vote to remove or keep the battle flag as part of their state flag. They voted YES keep it. I was at one time dating a black woman from Georgia, my great great grandfather had a black wife ( second wife ). The Sons of Confederate Veterans have a lot of members that are black.
Trouble with race relations is that must times the only people that the majority of people hear or see, are the idiots from both sides. A group of black and white kids hanging out drinking an RC Cola and eating moon pies don't make the news.
The trouble with reparations is that the people paying had nothing to do with the injustice and the people receiving had nothing to do with the injustice - the people that were in the game are long gone -
Fishermc' - I don't have a racist bone in my body - but tell me - am I a racist if I quote some statistics concerning the high crime rate among young black men or the extreme high rate of births to single mothers - to your way of thinking probably yes - how are you ever going to solve problems if you can't even mention something that is true - people need to be open and discuss issues so that all parties know what others think and why -
When you say welfare are-is reparation you are implying that all blacks are on welfare and ignoring the fact that many white people are also on welfare for generations. To paint an intire group of people with the same brush because of their color or origin is racist.
Why do you think the crime rate is so high among young black men and extreme high rate of births to single mothers? Since you mentioned it ? I wouldn't know because i do not live within that community of people.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
Thats a pretty big sociological question that if someone could put a valid reason to it would be very helpful in this american cultural debate and i totally see why you or really any of us , while we may have our thoughts on the matter dont feel really qualified to share it on a forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
To spread the discussion a bit wider than the flag debate as we sit here on july 5 2015 there is a bust in front of the state senate building in tennessee of nathan bedford forrest. He was a confederate general AND the head of the ku klux klan. Does that not seem a bit strange?
Fishermc' - when you give someone money or something of value for doing nothing you can call it reparations or welfare or whatever you want to - the result is the same - if you call it reparations instead of welfare it means there are some people (whites) who are getting it but don't deserve it -
I strongly believe everyone should be treated equal and given the same opportunity to have a happy life - that said - I also believe that each individual is responsible for his own life - if you work hard and follow the rules you will likely be successful - if you sit on your butt and break the rules in all likelihood you won't - the climate today is such that if a black man and a white man had the same qualifications and applied for a job in all likelihood the black man would get the job - affirmative action was in place for years and gave black people an advantage when applying for jobs and admittance to universities - many white students with higher grades were turned down while black with lower scores were admitted - look at the advertisements of TV - blacks make up around 13% of the population yet I say half maybe more of the advertisements include a black person - so I don't think that in this day and age minorities are being stomped on - if anything I think the white male is being cut down by the media and other liberal outlets -
Yes there are people who do not like people of other races or cultures - some very much and others just a little - you will always have that no matter what you do because people have different experiences with other races and this forms their opinion - and that can be say both ways - there are whites who don't like blacks and there are blacks who don't like whites - so it goes
Use of the word "reparation" is not being racist ;
rep·a·ra·tion
ˌrepəˈrāSH(ə)n/
noun
- the making of amends for a wrong one has done, by paying money to or otherwise helping those who have been wronged.
"the courts required a convicted offender to make financial reparation to his victim"
synonyms: amends, restitution, redress, compensation, recompense, repayment, atonement "the victims are seeking reparation"
- the compensation for war damage paid by a defeated state.
plural noun: reparations
It does,now,but,back in Nathan B.Forrest's day,it was status quo. At that time and even well into the early 20th century,the KKK was looked upon as very "uppity up". Over time,society evolves and learns. Changes occur. It goes hand in hand. We're dealing with,in the here and now,societies that have never changed. We call them The Taliban,Al Quaida and ISIL. How's that working for us?Quote:
Originally Posted by flowerjohn
For sure trimmer21. If you look at the kkk history from its inception it wasnt about what it came to represent and the reason i brought nathan forrest into the conversation was to point out exactly that not only did the kkk and its meaning change over time but so has the confederate flag symbol. If you roll this forum way way back on your computer that is what i started with. I just think that the whole large discussion is mired in symbol interpretation and excuses but not much is being said not here but overall about the issue. CheersQuote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
A question for you joepa? How do you feel about the fact that the usa is 13 percent whole black ( that is the census term ) and yet forty percent of the usa's prison inmates are whole black?
To say welfare is reparation to the black community seems racist to me.Post 97Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
I don't think it's racism. It's just flat-out wrong,but,that doesn't make it racist.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
Helluva post dude. It was mississippi because those men black and white worked shoulder to shoulder so damned hard to keep the north out. Thats what it was to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
It seems to me like he is saying that all black people are on welfare, and that is racist.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
I went back and re-read the post. Nowhere did the post say that all black people were on welfare. It said that,for generations,black people have lived off the welfare system. That's an absolutely irrefutable factual statement which may wrankle some people's sensibilities,but,it still doesn't necessarily make it "racist". To me,a "racist" statement needs to be mean-spirited,untrue and stereotypically disparaging to an entire race. JoePa's post doesn't meet that criteria.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
The main reason is the family breakdown - and the government had lot to do with it - if you were a black girl living in an apartment with 8 of your siblings and you find out that if you get pregnant and have a baby you can get your own place and a check from the government each month what do you think happens - and then you find out that if you have more children the monthly check keeps getting bigger what do you think happens - then you find out that trying to raise 6 kids without a father around to discipline them is nearly impossible - so you have a bunch of guys who have the same up bringing hanging around with each other looking for trouble - and they get it and land in prison -Quote:
Originally Posted by flowerjohn
Now some one is going to say - wait a minute Joe that is too simplistic of an answer - sure there are others reasons but this is the major one - and as far as being poor and this causing the problem I don't buy that - because I was raised poor and so was just about everybody else in my neighborhood - in a coal mining town in Pa. - we didn't end up in jail - and I'll tell you something - in those days there wasn't all the help that one gets from the government as exists today -
And what eventually happens - a culture develops where a certain group of people live a certain way which can be a hindrance to success - from my experience with oriental people coming to this country I see where they in general are very high in getting an education for their children and have a strong family bond which all helps to project them up in the social ladder - hope that answers your question -
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
Thanks joe. We have a very extensive social welfare policy up here too and we have many of the same social phenomena going on with single moms and lots of kids to raise on their own. Looks like things arent that different when you compare some problems that both canada and the usa have. Cheers.
What he did say is that welfare was reparation for black people ,that implys all black people are on welfare. Well what about blacks who have never been on welfare ,what did - do they get?
It's not an uncommon opinion in the USA. Like I mentioned previously, Rush Limbaugh has made that point of view very public on national radio. Certainly I don't think it's a statement that helps white and black people in the United States get together on the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
Canadians need to look at a similar question 4% native population, yet they make up 40% of the prison population. The US/Black prison population is only 3x over-represented. Canadian aboriginals are 10x over-represented. And it's not just natives - all minorities are over-represented in Canada's prisons - so this isn't a particularly American problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by flowerjohn
Canada is over three times worse off in that department. Those are some alarming numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
I believe that the 4% have more criminal activity due to poor socio-economic conditions leading to horrendous issues of low self esteem and a sense of complete defeat and despare making them ripe for exploitation by the criminal element. Despite pouring hundreds of billions of dollars into welfare and native affairs over many decades,the problem not only persists,but,has only gotten worse and worse. This seems true not only for First Nations,but,for most "visible minorities" that live in subsidized housing and on welfare as JoePa has alluded to. As Canadians,I also think we have a hell of a lot of nerve pointing fingers and tsk-tsking Americans,like we don't have a dog in the fight because ,in some ways,our dogs are nastier than theirs. We need to clean up our yards,first,before we pass judgement on others.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
I totally agree with you trimmer21.
Here's what 1 prominent American had to say:
"Removing the flag from this state’s capitol would not be an act of political correctness; it would not be an insult to the valor of Confederate soldiers. It would simply be an acknowledgment that the cause for which they fought – the cause of slavery – was wrong; the imposition of Jim Crow after the Civil War, the resistance to civil rights for all people was wrong. It would be one step in an honest accounting of America’s history; a modest but meaningful balm for so many unhealed wounds. It would be an expression of the amazing changes that have transformed this state and this country for the better, because of the work of so many people of goodwill, people of all races striving to form a more perfect union."
Two thumbs up !!!Quote:
Originally Posted by HaroldH
That is the post the world has been looking for!
If the flag was to be removed it should have been done the right way - have the people of SC vote if they want to remove it - not have some out of state girl climb the flag pole and take it down - and then have the liberal northern media jump all over the issue - "removing the flag ..... is not a act of political correctness" - the hell it ain't - this so-called prominent American sounds like some politician wanting national recognition - I wonder what they are going to remove next - aah - I got it - the men's room - it gotta go - it symbolizes male superiority and the last hold out against a wave of political correctness - don't say I didn't warn you -
The Top 5 Causes of the American Civil War, link to a very interesting read;http://americanhistory.about.com/od/..._civil_war.htm
History marches on. A great symbolic gesture---an olive branch of sorts.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/10/us/sou...lag/index.html
Did y'all see this? He's going to paint over the General Lee. What an idiot!
Bubba Watson’s General Lee (also known as the 1969 Dodge Charger driven by the Duke brothers in the 1980s TV show The Dukes of Hazzard) will no longer have a Confederate flag on top.
Watson, who was born in Florida and attended the University of Georgia, paid $110,000 for the General Lee at an auction in 2012. In January, he got the car autographed by John Schneider, the actor who played Bo Duke.
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/07/bubb...-flag-american
So,today,the battle Flag has come down from the short memorial flagpole on the grounds of the state capitol. The pressure,now,is being concentrated on The State of Mississippi to completely change their state flag which has the battle flag in the top left corner. When will this stuff stop. This nothing but political correctness run completely amok.
Exactly!!!!! And the removal of that flag will have absolutely no impact on problems and issues that the States are grappling with !Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Now that the flagpole is empty why don't they take that little prick who shot those people and run him up there instead?Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
You mean a lynching ?
Lethal injection is probably more politically correct.
And lets not forget that that boy is innocent until proven guilty!!
YEP, and by a PO'd mob of black folks. Tit for tat.Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
Oh trimmer come on! This boy is entitled to everything the law provides. Its his right boy!!Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21