Unknown champions

There were a few threads about pedigree and breeding and dog selection.
I was talking with a buddy who is also a dog guy and I though how many amazing champion capability gun dogs out there that are unknown.
Guys who have real hunting dogs, not that trial dogs are not hunting dogs by any means please don't get me wrong, but dogs that just hunt and only know how to hunt. No planted birds no artificial interference, not being over commanded and may not have the ideal style but game in the bag, and just hunt and hunt hard.
II have often seen pups for sale on Kijiji and have wondered what if its just a couple of guys with really great dogs that bread them together.
My buddy was talking to a guy out of Windsor who was selling GWP on Kijiji and asked them about there hunting experience, he said they hunted amazing, and as for versatile they hunted everything, ducks,pheasant,rabbit,grouse,woodcock,geese and hard too. Just a couple Euro guys with great dogs breeding them together, and they were reasonably priced too. No mark up price just because of a title.
Now I'm am not promoting puppy mill backyard breeding by any means.
Has anyone purchased a dog like this who surprisingly turned out to be an amazing hunter?

Never a surprise if you know what your looking for.
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/...ps8ylowzop.jpg
She may not win a ribbon from the pros but for not quite 2 yet can't ask for more. $400
Her predecessor much of the same
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/...pspmmx83bf.jpg

"Life is too short to hunt with an ugly dog".. Sorry, but when I take the time to get a dog to hunt , I want a dog that pedigree has been proven to those other than the owner and his close friends. I will have this dog for up to 15 years, it is to be healthy, has the desire to hunt, and is trainable. Yes , it may have cost me more from the outset, but in the long term investment I am money and enjoyment ahead. I do not want to take a gamble on a dog from who knows where being what Joe Smock and his buddy said was a great dog.
I may have a higher level of expectations from my dogs than most and do not want to waste my talents training a dog that just does not have the potential...

Dick

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Originally Posted by BDH

"Life is too short to hunt with an ugly dog".. Sorry, but when I take the time to get a dog to hunt , I want a dog that pedigree has been proven to those other than the owner and his close friends. I will have this dog for up to 15 years, it is to be healthy, has the desire to hunt, and is trainable. Yes , it may have cost me more from the outset, but in the long term investment I am money and enjoyment ahead. I do not want to take a gamble on a dog from who knows where being what Joe Smock and his buddy said was a great dog.
I may have a higher level of expectations from my dogs than most and do not want to waste my talents training a dog that just does not have the potential...

Dick

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Good post Dick, ya got me onside with that.
The immediate problems with 2 hunters breeding their dogs is certainly the health clearances unless they've done some homework and ensured for the future of others that their dogs are sound and healthy,

Some guy may tell me how great ole Joe is but if I see a title on ole Joe then I know he has distinguished himself in a given field. I have some facts to assist me in my decision.

If you're suggesting that there are dogs out there that can compare in a real sense to Field Champions then I really disagree. People need to see how talented and capable these dogs really are. You need to see how capable they are especially with the extremes(in retrieving) that they are capable of.

Field trial dogs that are exposed to regular hunting make dogs that most people cannot even imagine.

Good topic to think about though, Big Gunner.

I would treat it like conformation/show in the sense that just because a quality dog doesn't have a Ch. title doesn't mean it isn't worthy of being bred or that it doesn't have anything valuable to contribute to the gene pool. There are tons of gems out there without a stupid Ch. title that do hold fabulous conformation and are properly put together to the breed standard yet never step foot in the ring. Just because the owner didn't show it doesn't mean it is lesser quality. For me if the breeder, and trusted outside sources (other breeders, fanciers and those in the know of the breed standard) confirm my dog is conformationally sound - then that to me is enough to warrant breeding so long as health tests are cleared and temeperment is solid, and huntability is bang on.

So same goes for this scenario. If the dogs in question are correct in conformation, sound temperment, trainable and can hunt and produce and pass all health tests - what is so bad? If you don't take the breeders word and want to see the dogs in action yourself then go for it. See how trainable, obedient, and natural the dogs are in the field.
Just because the dogs did not come from field trial lines doesn't make them lesser quality.

Maplevizsla, I agree with you re your comments about a 'stupid CH' but using that analogy to compare dogs to dogs that have FTCH titles is a stretch.

Just because an owner did not compete cannot be used as an excuse that it is of lesser quality as you say but it is undeniable if the dog is field titled. Numerous competitions and high standards have attested to that.

Dogs that don't come from field trial lines are of less quality. They may be exceptional but most likely are missing in the traits that field trailers have bred for, drive, sagacity, intelligence, thinking, memory, stamina etc

I like your idea of seeing the parents in action...too bad more folks didn't do that.

"Has anyone purchased a dog like this who surprisingly turned out to be an amazing hunter?"
A simillar type of Question might be, has any ever won the lottery? Yes, but the chances of it happening to you and me are slim. The difference between Hunters breeding and someone who regularly competes or judges or is involved in field trials , is the amount of dogs and dog work that they are exposed too. A Hunter over 25 yrs will have a chance to know 2 or 3 dogs really well. A "Trialer" over the same period will know 5 times that many dogs and will have been exposed to hundreds possibly thousands of dogs. They will have seen the good and bad, which studs have produced, what the results have come from crosssing certains lines, which Breeders consistantly produce quality. One of my mentors once told me don't breed till you know all the hounds in the 3 generation pedigree.

However, I do feel the are Trials not perfect. The Trials can become self fulfilling. The example that comes to mind is Brace Beagling. The Judges , Competitors, and the sport as a whole developed themsevles a sport that created champions and grand champions for over fifty years. Yes they had great sport and competitions , but with total disregard for Hunters expectations.

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Originally Posted by Big Gunner

There were a few threads about pedigree and breeding and dog selection.<br>
I was talking with a buddy who is also a dog guy and I though how many amazing champion capability gun dogs out there that are unknown.<br>
Guys who have real hunting dogs, not that trial dogs are not hunting dogs by any means please don't get me wrong, but dogs that just hunt and only know how to hunt. No planted birds no artificial interference, not being over commanded and may not have the ideal style but game in the bag, and just hunt and hunt hard. <br>
II have often seen pups for sale on Kijiji and have wondered what if its just a couple of guys with really great dogs that bread them together.<br>
My buddy was talking to a guy out of Windsor who was selling GWP on Kijiji and asked them about there hunting experience, he said they hunted amazing, and as for versatile they hunted everything, ducks,pheasant,rabbit,grouse,woodcock,geese and hard too. Just a couple Euro guys with great dogs breeding them together, and they were reasonably priced too. No mark up price just because of a title.
Now I'm am not promoting puppy mill backyard breeding by any means.
Has anyone purchased a dog like this who surprisingly turned out to be an amazing hunter?

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"Has anyone purchased a dog like this who surprisingly turned out to be an amazing hunter? " quote

No.
I suppose someone could get lucky and hit on a great hunting dog on Kijii. Not a crap shoot I would want to take.

Your average weekend warrior or regular joe hunter doesn't want/need a flashy field trial high caliber dog. They want a dog that can hunt, just plain old hunt. Get the job done. Not a dog that can compete. Not a dog that can perform fancy flashy field trial aspects. Obviously some folks appreciate and want that, bet you more don't need that though.
Including myself. While my dog does have field trial champs in his bloodline and dogs who have acheived master hunt titles I don't want or need that in a hunting companion for my little bush in Ontario. I just need him to have the attributes of a great hunting companion. Couldn't care less about his ancestors winning this derby or that cup because I don't need him to do that. Sure is nice to have and know that his ancestors were fabulous field-trialers, but can my current dog hunt and can his parents and at least his grandparents? If they didn't field trial does not make his parents, grandparents or himself lesser quality- sorry but it doesn't. Not every owner of a breeding dog wants to or can commit to the time, dedication, trainig, travel and money to compete and put trial titles on thier dog.
My dog serves my purpose and I bet those family hunting companions do to.
I look at some of the Vizsla folk who are all NAVHDA - not trialing in the wide open prairie or desert or stakes in Michigan or Pennsylvania....these dogs can frikkin hunt. They have produced offspring that can hunt. Have won mulitple high achievements in navdha but in the end again can hunt. They are most definitely not lesser quality.

Field trials/lines are not the be all end all. What I am trying to say I guess is that in my breed's circle there are amazing dogs that can hunt and produce hunting dogs and are great contributors to the breed without a Ch. title - the title is just a small snapshot of 'that/those moments under those circumstances'....just like there are amazing dogs that are hunting machines that produce great hunting offspring without a FTCh. Title or having ever been trialed.

What I am leery of is kijiji.....or unethical breeding. Gotta do your homework and checks.

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Originally Posted by maplevizsla

Your average weekend warrior or regular joe hunter doesn't want/need a flashy field trial high caliber dog. They want a dog that can hunt, just plain old hunt. Get the job done. Not a dog that can compete. Not a dog that can perform fancy flashy field trial aspects. Obviously some folks appreciate and want that, bet you more don't need that though.
Including myself. While my dog does have field trial champs in his bloodline and dogs who have acheived master hunt titles I don't want or need that in a hunting companion for my little bush in Ontario. I just need him to have the attributes of a great hunting companion. Couldn't care less about his ancestors winning this derby or that cup because I don't need him to do that. Sure is nice to have and know that his ancestors were fabulous field-trialers, but can my current dog hunt and can his parents and at least his grandparents? If they didn't field trial does not make his parents, grandparents or himself lesser quality- sorry but it doesn't. Not every owner of a breeding dog wants to or can commit to the time, dedication, trainig, travel and money to compete and put trial titles on thier dog.
My dog serves my purpose and I bet those family hunting companions do to.
I look at some of the Vizsla folk who are all NAVHDA - not trialing in the wide open prairie or desert or stakes in Michigan or Pennsylvania....these dogs can frikkin hunt. They have produced offspring that can hunt. Have won mulitple high achievements in navdha but in the end again can hunt. They are most definitely not lesser quality.

Field trials/lines are not the be all end all. What I am trying to say I guess is that in my breed's circle there are amazing dogs that can hunt and produce hunting dogs and are great contributors to the breed without a Ch. title - the title is just a small snapshot of 'that/those moments under those circumstances'....just like there are amazing dogs that are hunting machines that produce great hunting offspring without a FTCh. Title or having ever been trialed.

What I am leery of is kijiji.....or unethical breeding. Gotta do your homework and checks.

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Well said.

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Originally Posted by maplevizsla

Your average weekend warrior or regular joe hunter doesn't want/need a flashy field trial high caliber dog. They want a dog that can hunt, just plain old hunt. Get the job done. Not a dog that can compete. Not a dog that can perform fancy flashy field trial aspects. Obviously some folks appreciate and want that, bet you more don't need that though.
Including myself. While my dog does have field trial champs in his bloodline and dogs who have acheived master hunt titles I don't want or need that in a hunting companion for my little bush in Ontario. I just need him to have the attributes of a great hunting companion. Couldn't care less about his ancestors winning this derby or that cup because I don't need him to do that. Sure is nice to have and know that his ancestors were fabulous field-trialers, but can my current dog hunt and can his parents and at least his grandparents? If they didn't field trial does not make his parents, grandparents or himself lesser quality- sorry but it doesn't. Not every owner of a breeding dog wants to or can commit to the time, dedication, trainig, travel and money to compete and put trial titles on thier dog.
My dog serves my purpose and I bet those family hunting companions do to.
I look at some of the Vizsla folk who are all NAVHDA - not trialing in the wide open prairie or desert or stakes in Michigan or Pennsylvania....these dogs can frikkin hunt. They have produced offspring that can hunt. Have won mulitple high achievements in navdha but in the end again can hunt. They are most definitely not lesser quality.

Field trials/lines are not the be all end all. What I am trying to say I guess is that in my breed's circle there are amazing dogs that can hunt and produce hunting dogs and are great contributors to the breed without a Ch. title - the title is just a small snapshot of 'that/those moments under those circumstances'....just like there are amazing dogs that are hunting machines that produce great hunting offspring without a FTCh. Title or having ever been trialed.

What I am leery of is kijiji.....or unethical breeding. Gotta do your homework and checks.

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Well of course your dog has champions and titles in his pedigree. The breeders of its ancestors, took the time, dedication, travel , money to prove and compare their breeding programs to others.
If you think your dog is worthy of breeding we can take your word on that, or you can prove it.

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Originally Posted by maplevizsla

Your average weekend warrior or regular joe hunter doesn't want/need a flashy field trial high caliber dog. They want a dog that can hunt, just plain old hunt. Get the job done. Not a dog that can compete. Not a dog that can perform fancy flashy field trial aspects. Obviously some folks appreciate and want that, bet you more don't need that though.
Including myself. While my dog does have field trial champs in his bloodline and dogs who have acheived master hunt titles I don't want or need that in a hunting companion for my little bush in Ontario. I just need him to have the attributes of a great hunting companion. Couldn't care less about his ancestors winning this derby or that cup because I don't need him to do that. Sure is nice to have and know that his ancestors were fabulous field-trialers, but can my current dog hunt and can his parents and at least his grandparents? If they didn't field trial does not make his parents, grandparents or himself lesser quality- sorry but it doesn't. Not every owner of a breeding dog wants to or can commit to the time, dedication, trainig, travel and money to compete and put trial titles on thier dog.
My dog serves my purpose and I bet those family hunting companions do to.
I look at some of the Vizsla folk who are all NAVHDA - not trialing in the wide open prairie or desert or stakes in Michigan or Pennsylvania....these dogs can frikkin hunt. They have produced offspring that can hunt. Have won mulitple high achievements in navdha but in the end again can hunt. They are most definitely not lesser quality.

Field trials/lines are not the be all end all. What I am trying to say I guess is that in my breed's circle there are amazing dogs that can hunt and produce hunting dogs and are great contributors to the breed without a Ch. title - the title is just a small snapshot of 'that/those moments under those circumstances'....just like there are amazing dogs that are hunting machines that produce great hunting offspring without a FTCh. Title or having ever been trialed.

What I am leery of is kijiji.....or unethical breeding. Gotta do your homework and checks.

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MV,
Your comments may be appropo your breed but not accurate with the retriever world. The fancy, flashy field trial aspects you refer to are the rudiments of hard driving prey oriented retrievers wanting to get to the bird.

I also believe the great attributes you seek are the very aspects of strong field trial dogs that have been bred for those attributes.

I can tell you how many labs I've seen who are not water dogs. Do you think the average hunter wants that. Last one I looked at didn't like water in August. Do you think he'll go now. You can guess the answer he received. What else do you expect when buying a show bred dog....indeed.

The small snapshot you refer to can be 10 years of competing...not just happen stance. Dogs that do it over years.

Your comment on Kijiji is spot on....you bet one must do their homework.

In my experience, some of the hardest waterfowl hunters I ever met over several decades always sought out top FTCH dogs to sire their litters.
They recognized the qualities they sought and continued to want came from proven dogs, dogs that have met a standard.

If you were ever lucky/skilled enough to have trained, competed and hunted over a Field Trial Champion you would understand my comment. You truly would.

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Originally Posted by maplevizsla

Your average weekend warrior or regular joe hunter doesn't want/need a flashy field trial high caliber dog. They want a dog that can hunt, just plain old hunt. Get the job done. Not a dog that can compete. Not a dog that can perform fancy flashy field trial aspects. Obviously some folks appreciate and want that, bet you more don't need that though.
Including myself. While my dog does have field trial champs in his bloodline and dogs who have acheived master hunt titles I don't want or need that in a hunting companion for my little bush in Ontario. I just need him to have the attributes of a great hunting companion. Couldn't care less about his ancestors winning this derby or that cup because I don't need him to do that. Sure is nice to have and know that his ancestors were fabulous field-trialers, but can my current dog hunt and can his parents and at least his grandparents? If they didn't field trial does not make his parents, grandparents or himself lesser quality- sorry but it doesn't. Not every owner of a breeding dog wants to or can commit to the time, dedication, trainig, travel and money to compete and put trial titles on thier dog.
My dog serves my purpose and I bet those family hunting companions do to.
I look at some of the Vizsla folk who are all NAVHDA - not trialing in the wide open prairie or desert or stakes in Michigan or Pennsylvania....these dogs can frikkin hunt. They have produced offspring that can hunt. Have won mulitple high achievements in navdha but in the end again can hunt. They are most definitely not lesser quality.

Field trials/lines are not the be all end all. What I am trying to say I guess is that in my breed's circle there are amazing dogs that can hunt and produce hunting dogs and are great contributors to the breed without a Ch. title - the title is just a small snapshot of 'that/those moments under those circumstances'....just like there are amazing dogs that are hunting machines that produce great hunting offspring without a FTCh. Title or having ever been trialed.

What I am leery of is kijiji.....or unethical breeding. Gotta do your homework and checks.

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You seem to be trying to explain the difference in the performance programs of "FIELD TRIAL" with "HUNT TEST" . You speak of NAVHDA dogs , they are hunt tested to an established standard; Field trial dogs are a competition, one dog against another and a buyer or the average weekend warrior should be aware of the difference between the programs before they buy.

With a hunt test the dog has various establish elements it is graded against, ( Example, Nose, Desire, Cooperation) Some of the elements in early tested are inherited characteristics, and as the dog is trained becomes more of the dogs capabilities to accept training and the ability of a trainer to train a dog. Field trials see the same characteristics being evaluated, but not to a standard but against other dogs being trialed.

My concern is the interpretation of a "REAL HUNTING DOG" by some. I have seen some rescue "mutts" that have produced game as well as any, and to that owner he was content. He was a lottery winner. I personally do not like taking those chances on my hunting companions. I want a dog from a independent, test proven to a standard pedigree that has a higher percentage of being healthy, and has inherited the abilities to become a quality hunting dog over the "Real hunting dog".

Dick

In this age of easy information/research there is no reason to roll the dice when buying a hunting dog. The reality is many don't have the chance to see the parents in action. So the second best thing is the track records like FT titles. The champions have proven 2 things. 1) they have the genes to excell and 2) they are trainable. Those dogs who have hunt test titles have the same attributes. An FDX titled dog must show drive, control, steady to wing and shot, back, retrieve to hand and do water retrieves. They must do this 3 times for different judges so it's not a one shot deal. If you own such a dog you have s formidable hunting companion. NAVHDA tested dogs also have very stringent standards as the level increases. All of this is extremely important but the single biggest variable that doesn't always get mentioned is the owner. If you are a dedicated and knowledgable trainer you will get the best out of your dog. If owning a bird dog means kennelling it 48 weeks a year and no training or conditioning off season you could have a well pedigreed dog who may never amount to much. Buying a dog is a calculated risk at best. I want to reduce the risk as much as possible.

I have to see them hunt.
It will take me maybe ten minutes.
The Field Champs that I have seen, I wouldn't give you a dollar for.

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Originally Posted by Mount Sweetness

I have to see them hunt.
It will take me maybe ten minutes.
The Field Champs that I have seen, I wouldn't give you a dollar for.

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what if the Dam is in Ontario and the Sire in Ohio? Can you always guarantee it will only take 10 minutes to locate a grouse or woodcock? Sometimes a dog is purchased based on kennel reputation. I know 3 people who have bought dogs from Idaho. Great dogs but not everybody has the vacation time or money to go look at a dog in Idaho.

Great responses. I love reading the different posts.
It obviously make the most sense to go with a proven blood line. I looked into that when picking my pup.

when my buddy bought his GSP 7 or 8 years ago he didn't know much about gun dogs and what to look for specifically with regards to breeders and pedegree. All he knew was that wanted a hunting dog and the GSP fit his hunting style and he saw a litter being sold in a magazine, meet the guy saw the parents work a bit didn't really know what to look for but saw them point birds got excited and bought a pup.
Let me tell you I have shot alot of pray at the end of that dogs nose. It screws pray down, and everything. Grouse, woodcock, pheasants,rabbits and every fall we shoot turkey pointed by her And the retrieveing awesome, from land and water equally as good. Did he get lucky? Maybe, that dog gets hunted 3 days a week every week for the past 8 years. It has never been in front of a judge or anyone else for that matter.
He got her fixed when she was a pup and is kicking himself in the now after seeing how good she hunts. I would have taken a pup from that litter for sure. I've seen it first hand no need for a ribbon to prove this dogs worth. But for an outsider I guess you would never know just how good a hunting dog she is without proof. And the ribbons are the proof.

So let me ask this question then.

You have a litter from 2 ultra championed dogs. Does this mean every dog in that litter is going to be an amazing hunting dog? Everyone?
Of is this a crap shoot too? Just a bit more expensive of a crap shoot.

There are never any guarantees. Why does one kid from a family graduate from medical school and the other end up in jail? Same parents, same home, same nutrition and upbringing.

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Originally Posted by Big Gunner

Great responses. I love reading the different posts.
It obviously make the most sense to go with a proven blood line. I looked into that when picking my pup.

when my buddy bought his GSP 7 or 8 years ago he didn't know much about gun dogs and what to look for specifically with regards to breeders and pedegree. All he knew was that wanted a hunting dog and the GSP fit his hunting style and he saw a litter being sold in a magazine, meet the guy saw the parents work a bit didn't really know what to look for but saw them point birds got excited and bought a pup.
Let me tell you I have shot alot of pray at the end of that dogs nose. It screws pray down, and everything. Grouse, woodcock, pheasants,rabbits and every fall we shoot turkey pointed by her And the retrieveing awesome, from land and water equally as good. Did he get lucky? Maybe, that dog gets hunted 3 days a week every week for the past 8 years. It has never been in front of a judge or anyone else for that matter.
He got her fixed when she was a pup and is kicking himself in the now after seeing how good she hunts. I would have taken a pup from that litter for sure. I've seen it first hand no need for a ribbon to prove this dogs worth. But for an outsider I guess you would never know just how good a hunting dog she is without proof. And the ribbons are the proof.

So let me ask this question then.

You have a litter from 2 ultra championed dogs. Does this mean every dog in that litter is going to be an amazing hunting dog? Everyone?
Of is this a crap shoot too? Just a bit more expensive of a crap shoot.

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Maybe not,but very likely you will have fine hunting dogs from that litter. Some will have that extra bit of drive/independence that can make a difference in a trial.
Of course how well any pup turns out depends on the expertise/knowledgeof the handler/owner. A lousy first 6 months can not be always made up imo.

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Originally Posted by Big Gunner

Great responses. I love reading the different posts.
It obviously make the most sense to go with a proven blood line. I looked into that when picking my pup.

when my buddy bought his GSP 7 or 8 years ago he didn't know much about gun dogs and what to look for specifically with regards to breeders and pedegree. All he knew was that wanted a hunting dog and the GSP fit his hunting style and he saw a litter being sold in a magazine, meet the guy saw the parents work a bit didn't really know what to look for but saw them point birds got excited and bought a pup.
Let me tell you I have shot alot of pray at the end of that dogs nose. It screws pray down, and everything. Grouse, woodcock, pheasants,rabbits and every fall we shoot turkey pointed by her And the retrieveing awesome, from land and water equally as good. Did he get lucky? Maybe, that dog gets hunted 3 days a week every week for the past 8 years. It has never been in front of a judge or anyone else for that matter.
He got her fixed when she was a pup and is kicking himself in the now after seeing how good she hunts. I would have taken a pup from that litter for sure. I've seen it first hand no need for a ribbon to prove this dogs worth. But for an outsider I guess you would never know just how good a hunting dog she is without proof. And the ribbons are the proof.

So let me ask this question then.

You have a litter from 2 ultra championed dogs. Does this mean every dog in that litter is going to be an amazing hunting dog? Everyone?
Of is this a crap shoot too? Just a bit more expensive of a crap shoot.

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I can probably guarantee you that pups from the ultra championed litter will not stop every 10 feet to smell other dogs markings .
All pups will have high prey drive and not all will put it together .
Give me a dog with drive all day long.

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Originally Posted by Sharon

Of course how well any pup turns out depends on the expertise/knowledgeof the handler/owner. A lousy first 6 months can not be always made up imo.

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Ding, ding, ding! :-)

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Originally Posted by Mount Sweetness

I have to see them hunt.
It will take me maybe ten minutes.
The Field Champs that I have seen, I wouldn't give you a dollar for.

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This is fine, if you have the experience and knowledge to make an informed judgement. A lot of novices or first time buyers don't have that. Some would have no idea what they are looking at.

This is another aspect of trials that I would like to point out. If I have a mind to breed my best female champion, I can go to the trials and watch several stud dog champions, work in different types of terain and weather conditions. I might have the chance to watch some of their prodgeny, to see what traits they are passing on. I can pick the stud that best suits my female. Thru this process the odds of that breeding producing quality steadily increases.

I have a hunch, of what goes on in the op. Bob and Ted are hunting buddies. They are satisfied with what they have, but thinking of the future. "We don't have to go shopping and spend the big bucks. Lets breed trusty and tramp. We can each have a pick of the litter and sell the rest on kijiji and make a couple bucks."

Even the worst pup from a well bred litter, proven sire and dam, is almost guaranteed to be better than a pup from a breeding of 2 "great hunting dogs" as attested to by their owners. It's human nature to be a little "kennel blind" and forgive faults and remember the outstanding days with our often "average" hunting companions.
To compound things those making the assessment of their "great meat dogs" may never have seen dogs performing to the highest levels to have a standard to compare to.
A dog is a long term investment in time and money. I'd choose to put it into a dog with the highest chance of being what I want, and that would be from bloodlines that produce proven consistent performers.

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Originally Posted by Mount Sweetness

I have to see them hunt.
It will take me maybe ten minutes.
The Field Champs that I have seen, I wouldn't give you a dollar for.

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Not sure what Field Champions you have seen or claim to but I doubt you've had the chance to hunt over some FTCH Labradors or you would be shocked at how capable they are. They are capable of the extremes not just picking up a dead duck in front of you.
Most professionals would want a dog for at least a week or more to assess their skills over a broad range of expectations......10 minutes eh...

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Originally Posted by be2man

Even the worst pup from a well bred litter, proven sire and dam, is almost guaranteed to be better than a pup from a breeding of 2 "great hunting dogs" as attested to by their owners. It's human nature to be a little "kennel blind" and forgive faults and remember the outstanding days with our often "average" hunting companions.
To compound things those making the assessment of their "great meat dogs" may never have seen dogs performing to the highest levels to have a standard to compare to.
A dog is a long term investment in time and money. I'd choose to put it into a dog with the highest chance of being what I want, and that would be from bloodlines that produce proven consistent performers.

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Pretty much what this guys said...

I've seen it happen where 2 really good dogs are bred and one pup I was lucky enough to hunt over a lot, turned out to be a great dog. The owner took the time to develop the dog and it got TONS of exposure...including planted birds and all that other "field trail stuff". Birds make good hunting dogs...along with inherited traits. Trials and such help bring out the best in them. IMO, the closest thing you can get to a guaranteed high performance hunting dog is to buy through the Jagdgebrauchshund-Verband e.V. (JGHV), system. Its strict controls are off-putting for some, but man do their dogs hunt! And they aren't crazy expensive either. Why take a risk? NAVHDA is a pretty close second to JGHV.

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Originally Posted by Mount Sweetness

I have to see them hunt.
It will take me maybe ten minutes.
The Field Champs that I have seen, I wouldn't give you a dollar for.

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You seen many field champions on wild birds?
I have seen hunting dogs and FDSB wild birds champions on wild birds and the consistency in which the champions or even derby age dogs find birds over the hunting dog is not even close . Seen alot more good old hunting dogs quit at the 11 min mark than FDSB Champs.

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Originally Posted by be2man

Even the worst pup from a well bred litter, proven sire and dam, is almost guaranteed to be better than a pup from a breeding of 2 "great hunting dogs" as attested to by their owners. It's human nature to be a little "kennel blind" and forgive faults and remember the outstanding days with our often "average" hunting companions.
To compound things those making the assessment of their "great meat dogs" may never have seen dogs performing to the highest levels to have a standard to compare to.

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This is bang on. Everyone loves their dogs dearly. I have hunted with friends and coworkers that once they knew I was into dogs couldn't wait to get out and show me what their "amazing hunting dogs" could do. I have yet to be amazed. In this group of dogs I have seen okay dogs that maybe could just use more training, I've seen dogs that their training is the only thing that has them resemble a hunting dog, and I've seen retrievers that won't even pick up a duck, or enter the water - yet their owners still talk about them as if they're a once in a lifetime dog. They may indeed be in other aspects of their life, but hunting certainly isn't their defining trait. Whether or not you wish to run field trials or compete in dog games, without seeing dogs of your chosen breed competing at high levels you really cannot compare apples to apples. You really don't even know what the dog should/can be capable of doing. By buying dogs from proven field stock with champions or winners in their pedigree it is definitely still a gamble. But it is a much better gamble than just buying a dog that is known to be bred for hunting, or from someone who thinks their dog is a great hunter. Generally even the "duds" from these breedings in the red will be more capable than a star from an average litter of companion dogs.

As it happens, I have two dogs. One is my hunting dog of several seasons, a dog of no particular breeding. The new pup is out of solid field trial lines.

Whether your dog of no particular breeding is a "great hunting dog" depends mostly on your own subjective idea of what greatness is. As be2man pointed out we can easily be a bit kennel blind and remember the good stuff while forgiving the faults. My older dog puts a lot of birds in the bag but I can write a list of her faults as long as your arm. She is what she is. A "great" hunting dog?

I can answer because she can't read: No. She's a capable hunting partner who puts birds in the bag. If that's enough for me, fine -- but the original question here was not whether Joe and Bob Hunter need top-shelf trial dogs to hunt with, but "how many amazing champion capability gun dogs" are being bred by the likes of Joe and Fred. If you've seen both, you know the answer.

You have trained ability and natural ability. Just about any dog will hunt and lots of exposure will make a good hunting dog, but you can only go as far as natural ability will take you. And that natural ability includes traits that make training easier. For example, trial spaniels are bred for the traits that make steadying easy, something that I can already see in the pup. (Recent research comparing impulsivity in Border Collies and Labs from working and non-working lines confirms this.) Making a "great hunting dog" is easier if you start with the right material.

In another recent thread, jakezilla said he would breed untitled dogs if he liked their qualities. Paul McGagh, one of the top cocker guys in the US, has said the same. But this is not the same as Joe and Bob deciding to breed their "great hunting dogs" -- the key difference being that McGagh & jakezilla get to see dozens of dogs run each year and pick their poison, while Joe and Fred can only work with what they've got. Joe and Fred can't have much hope of breeding a top-shelf dog working on those terms.

Ever since I was a kid, I've wanted to fly a Spitfire. I hear there are old warbirds hidden in barns all over the place, that just need the pigeon poop polished away by some happy collector. Should I start searching for the Spitfire Mk. IX LF of my dreams? The idea that there are would-be champions bred in backyards is a similar fantasy.

I guess the best answer to this one, in the end, is that if your dog is a great hunting dog to you, then enjoy the few years you've got with the dog. And remember, you'll enjoy them more if you never ask anyone else to agree that your dog is a great hunting dog. :)

[IMG]http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...k20/035_35.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...20/002_024.jpg[/IMG]Yes it is possible that great hunting dogs may produce good hunting dogs just as it is possible that some National Champions may not be be good producers. At the end of the day, its all about one's expectations and set of standards just like the guns we choose to shoot, the vehicles we drive etc. If simply putting game on the table is the utmost important objective, then the dog just becomes a tool and any common dog will do however you'll be missing out on experiencing some of the thrills and excitement that only a high caliber bird dog is capable of providing, which in my opinion is a bigger part of the game.
I'm my own dog's worst critic but I have very high standards and for all the time and effort I put into training and developing a dog, I expect and demand nothing short of the best out of a dog so mediocrity is not acceptable in my agenda. If I'm going to house, feed and hunt a dog that's going to be part of my life for over a decade, I want something that is going to entertain and thrill me and my companions when I cut him loose. After the initial purchase, it doesn't cost any more or less to keep a common hunting dog than it does to keep a high caliber performer so why deprive yourself and settle for less ? Life is just too short, especially for a dog !
[IMG]http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...00410006-4.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...20/002_23A.jpg[/IMG]

I agree with this statement sidelock in all aspects of my life including my job, dogs, hobbies etc. Came from good parenting ;I'm an all in kinda guy or nothing at all. Best post in my opinion. Well said sidelock !

Agreed. Well said sidelock.
And great responses by alot of people.

There some smart people on this form.

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Originally Posted by sidelock

[IMG]http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...k20/035_35.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...20/002_024.jpg[/IMG]Yes it is possible that great hunting dogs may produce good hunting dogs just as it is possible that some National Champions may not be be good producers. At the end of the day, its all about one's expectations and set of standards just like the guns we choose to shoot, the vehicles we drive etc. If simply putting game on the table is the utmost important objective, then the dog just becomes a tool and any common dog will do however you'll be missing out on experiencing some of the thrills and excitement that only a high caliber dog is capable of providing, which in my opinion is a bigger part of the game.
I'm my own dog's worst critic but I have very high standards and for all the time and effort I put into training and developing a dog, I expect and demand nothing short of the best out of a dog so mediocrity is not acceptable in my agenda. If I'm going to house, feed and hunt a dog that's going to be part of my life for over a decade, I want something that is going to entertain and thrill me and my companions when I cut him loose. After the initial purchase, it doesn't cost any more or less to keep a common hunting dog than it does to keep a high caliber performer so why deprive yourself and settle for less ? Life is just too short, especially for a dog !
[IMG]http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...00410006-4.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...20/002_23A.jpg[/IMG]

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Beauties!!

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[COLOR=#333333]I've seen it happen where 2 really good dogs are bred and one pup I was lucky enough to hunt over a lot, turned out to be a great dog. The owner took the time to develop the dog and it got TONS of exposure...including planted birds and all that other "field trail stuff". Birds make good hunting dogs...along with inherited traits. Trials and such help bring out the best in them. IMO, the closest thing you can get to a guaranteed high performance hunting dog is to buy through the Jagdgebrauchshund-Verband e.V. (JGHV), system. Its strict controls are off-putting for some, but man do their dogs hunt! And they aren't crazy expensive either. Why take a risk? NAVHDA is a pretty close second to JGHV.

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I agree, for someone wanting a versatile hunting dog its hard to beat Blood lines out of tested NAVHDA and JGHV dogs. My current GSP sire had its NAVHDA prize VC and the dam was a German import with prize's in the derby testing they do over there, she lives and breathes hunting. I remember once talking to a breeder that was expecting a litter out of JGHV tested dogs and he told me he would only except deposits from people that could provide him a copy of there hunting licence! From my experience and from others I have talked to, any one getting a pup from bloodlines that have been tested and passed from these program's can very likely expect a pup with lots of natural ability and pray drive off the charts!

Well, another interesting read. We seem to have a lot of discussions a about breeding.
While (with my limited experience) I could surely write a book about the subject.
Here it is in a few sentences.
There are different breeding models, one needs to be aware of that - puppy mills, backyard breeders, collective of breeders, breed clubs etc. Unless the prospective buyer has the experience to pick and choose he/she needs to pick someone who doesn't have anything to sell (very rare) and listen to their advice. Also most importantly, hunt with as many different dogs/breeds as possible.

It's possible to breed a good dog in almost any system, including two hunters breeding their dogs. But the bigger question is what is a 'good dog' for you? How does it fit your hunting and life?
Very importantly not everyone is well suited with a pup from field trial background regardless of the breed.

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You have a litter from 2 ultra championed dogs. Does this mean every dog in that litter is going to be an amazing hunting dog? Everyone?
Of is this a crap shoot too?

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Genetics tend to average things. Great parents might not produce great pups. The pups in a given litter will have 25% of the same DNA, the rest can be the same or can be different. Of course, the probability of getting the right pup from the right parents is greater, than from two crappy dogs, but I don't really understand what you're trying to get at with those questions.
About two hunters breeding their dogs, it's possible to produce great pups, if those hunters know what they're doing.
There are examples of that.

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Originally Posted by Big Gunner

There were a few threads about pedigree and breeding and dog selection.
I was talking with a buddy who is also a dog guy and I though how many amazing champion capability gun dogs out there that are unknown.
Guys who have real hunting dogs, not that trial dogs are not hunting dogs by any means please don't get me wrong, but dogs that just hunt and only know how to hunt. No planted birds no artificial interference, not being over commanded and may not have the ideal style but game in the bag, and just hunt and hunt hard.
II have often seen pups for sale on Kijiji and have wondered what if its just a couple of guys with really great dogs that bread them together.
My buddy was talking to a guy out of Windsor who was selling GWP on Kijiji and asked them about there hunting experience, he said they hunted amazing, and as for versatile they hunted everything, ducks,pheasant,rabbit,grouse,woodcock,geese and hard too. Just a couple Euro guys with great dogs breeding them together, and they were reasonably priced too. No mark up price just because of a title.
Now I'm am not promoting puppy mill backyard breeding by any means.
Has anyone purchased a dog like this who surprisingly turned out to be an amazing hunter?

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Hey Big Gunner, interesting thread. My current dog is a mutt. She's great and the guys I hunt with would agree. I'm not a breeder or gun dog trainer. I like to think I'm an average weekend hunter who doesn't mind getting lost in the woods chasing my dog around. I found my pup on kijiji. I visited the breeders home twice before purchasing the dog. The breeder was a hunter. He had both parents on site (which hunted) and I had a good feeling about him and his family. If you would like more details please send me a PM. I'd be happy to share more information with you.

Not to single you out pigeoneater - but for the sake of the conversation I think your input in the thread would be value added. You have alluded to the fact that you own a mutt of questionable breeding as far as field trials are concerned. I think you should shed light on that.

there is business and there are genetics. one is rather short term (a title or two, followed by a litter) and the other will take generations (decades) to play out.
as JGHV was mentioned, the concept is not about the individual litter, but the overall long term development of a breed for a specific purpose. in order to factor a few generations into the equation it can take quite long if you consider a dogs actual/usable life span. remember, most have their hunting companions in family settings and won't cull them after just a few years before medical expenses ramp up.
logically, working on the entire gene pool rather than focusing on key traits of a pair of individuals provides the average owner with a low risk dog (sufficiently trainable, drive, health, etc.).
and don't forget, the really great dogs are owned by great handlers who invest a lot of time. buying a pup and expecting it to work like the dam/sire is like believing that removing the muffler will turn your honda civic into a race car.

With all due respect and I'm not trying to pic an argument here or sound degrading in any way but simply using a post as an example. Pigeoneater's post is testament to the words I spoke in an earlier post when I stated that at the end of the day it all comes down to an the individual's expectations and set of standards. Although his standards and expectations may not be the same or as high as someone else's with regards to dogs, according to what he wrote and by the quote or caption at the bottom of his post about cross breeding, he's evidently quite pleased and happy with his dog and that's what's important and what really matters, not what someone else says it should be. If we all thought, believed and acted the same we would be one very boring society.

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Originally Posted by sidelock

With all due respect and I'm not trying to pic an argument here or sound degrading in any way but simply using a post as an example. Pigeoneater's post is testament to the words I spoke in an earlier post when I stated that at the end of the day it all comes down to an the individual's expectations and set of standards. Although his standards and expectations may not be the same or as high as someone else's with regards to dogs, according to what he wrote and by the quote or caption at the bottom of his post about cross breeding, he's evidently quite pleased and happy with his dog and that's what's important and what really matters, not what someone else says it should be. If we all thought, believed and acted the same we would be one very boring society.

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Yeah, I suppose. If the kijiji dog mongers want to feast on my crumbs, so be it.

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Originally Posted by swampsinger

Yeah, I suppose. If the kijiji dog mongers want to feast on my crumbs, so be it.

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Guess your comment has some merit when you read an add like this. Claims that would have hunters with any experience raise a skeptical eye

Date Listed	02-Dec-16
Price	$1,200.00
Address	Noëlville, ON P0M2N0 View map[COLOR=#000000]
[COLOR=#000000]
Offered By	Owner
Pet's Date of Birth	02-Dec-16 (1 week old)
This pet should not be rehomed until 27-Jan-17 at the earliest

• Description
• Rehoming + Adoption

Description

10 days old update! The Brittanypoo is a hybrid cross between a Brittany Spaniel and a Standard Poodle. These pups will have their tails docked along with all age appropriate shots. These pups are perfect for a family who want an energetic hunting dog without the high maintenance of a Poodle or the constant shedding of the Brittany. Because the Poodle is famous for it's water foul game and the Brittany for field trials, these pups are the ultimate hunting and family companion. Both parents are water and wild game fanatics so I am certain the pups will be as well. They are both loving friendly family focused breeds so along with their hunting abilities they will also be fantastic pets. I recommend anybody interested research breed information on the Standard Poodle and the Brittany Spaniel to ensure this designer breed is right for you. A $300 non-refundable deposit will ensure the pup you chose remains reserved until the puppy is ready to leave. We are excepting etransfers for those who are out of town and cannot make the deposit in person. Pups will be ready to leave last week of January. We will also include all necessary paperwork and a take home package to make the pups transition the easiest possible. ADOPTED Pic 1 Tequila (chocolate brown female) Born at 12:03am Dec 2nd 1 lbs 6.60 oz at 10 days old Pic 2 Demeter or Demee for short (chocolate brown female) Born at 11:52pm Dec 1st 1 lbs 1.60 oz at 10 days old Pic 3 Aphrodite or Aphra for short (chocolate brown female) Born at 11:16pm Dec 1st 1 lbs 7.50 oz at 10 days old Pic 4 Apollo (cream male) Born at 12:40am Dec 2nd 1 lbs 8.10 oz at 10 days old Pic 5 Persephone or Percy for short (tan female) Born at 12:20am Dec 2nd 1 lbs 6.40 oz at 10 days old ADOPTED Pic 6 Maple (tan female) Born at 12:55am Dec 2nd 1 lbs 6.50 oz at 10 days old Pic 7 Zeus (red male) Born at 10:57pm Dec 1st 1 lbs 8.20 oz at 10 days old Pic 8 parents Mayzee and Dusty Please email text or call for more information or to reserve your puppy! You won't be disappointed! Which is a bit different than an add for puppies from two well bred and both hunting parents that might warrant further investigation. Sellers no matter what the forum will always have their self interest at heart and the buyer has to beware no matter how credible the seller may appear.

That Kijiji add is pathetic and so is the asking price. $150 tops is what they should be sold for.

If you have a litter of mutts all you have to do is hyphenate the two breeds, price them over a thousand dollars and the dimwitt yuppies will snap them up.

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Originally Posted by dilly

That Kijiji add is pathetic and so is the asking price. $150 tops is what they should be sold for.

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Interested how you came up with a value of $150? Tail docking and shots at a minimum would warrant something higher I'd think. As for the $1200 number if one was looking for a Brittanypoo isn't that standard for a designer dog which all pedigreed ones are?

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

Date Listed	02-Dec-16
Price	$1,200.00
Address	Noëlville, ON P0M2N0 View map[COLOR=#000000]
[COLOR=#000000]
Offered By	Owner
Pet's Date of Birth	02-Dec-16 (1 week old)
This pet should not be rehomed until 27-Jan-17 at the earliest

The Brittanypoo is a hybrid cross between a Brittany Spaniel and a Standard Poodle. These pups will have their tails docked along with all age appropriate shots. These pups are perfect for a family who want an energetic hunting dog without the high maintenance of a Poodle or the constant shedding of the Brittany. Because the Poodle is famous for it's water foul game and the Brittany for field trials, these pups are the ultimate hunting and family companion. Both parents are water and wild game fanatics so I am certain the pups will be as well. They are both loving friendly family focused breeds so along with their hunting abilities they will also be fantastic pets. I recommend anybody interested research breed information on the Standard Poodle and the Brittany Spaniel to ensure this designer breed is right for you. A $300 non-refundable deposit will ensure the pup you chose remains reserved until the puppy is ready to leave. We are excepting etransfers for those who are out of town and cannot make the deposit in person. Pups will be ready to leave last week of January. We will also include all necessary paperwork and a take home package to make the pups transition the easiest possible.

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OMG ..... obviously our pricing was waaaaay to low for our recent litter of labs with a proven pedigree and out of a FTCH AFTCH x MHR with full health clearances! I cannot believe that people have the nerve to ask that kind of money for that sort of breeding! Love the quote "Both parents are water and wild game fanatics so I am certain the pups will be as well" .......

"Because the Poodle is famous for it's water foul game and the Brittany for field trials, these pups are the ultimate hunting"

How can people shovel that kind of dribble toward people .Didn't see any famous poodles in the freezing waters this morning...just a hard driving lab!

Guess I need to ask this person to define 'famous'...we obviously have different definitions in mind.......

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

Interested how you came up with a value of $150? Tail docking and shots at a minimum would warrant something higher I'd think. As for the $1200 number if one was looking for a Brittanypoo isn't that standard for a designer dog which all pedigreed ones are?

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I picked it out of the air. A person this dumb should take a loss for bringing a litter of dogs into this world and then touting them as something they aren't.
now, to be fair, breed crosses have led to the development of the deutsch drahthaar. My one dog's ahnentafel actually lists that the line arose from a pudelpointer crossed with a kurzhaar...but I doubt those first litters were posted on kijiji back in the day.

I have to be so careful when I go to the dog park with the JRT.( Always have a JRT rescue and they love the dog park.)
A LOT of people have designer breeds of which they are proud.
When they ask what I think of their dog I have to say "Well, ah................."

My God, is there people out there that would pay $1200 for one of those?

You bet. 1200 is pretty average for mutts on kijiji

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Originally Posted by Sharon

I have to be so careful when I go to the dog park with the JRT.( Always have a JRT rescue and they love the dog park.)
A LOT of people have designer breeds of which they are proud.
When they ask what I think of their dog I have to say "Well, ah................."

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Ah Sharon you say the same thing you would say too proud parents of an ugly baby. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and if they are happy be happy for them.

Right on. I usually say , "Well he's very attractive." but, WHAT USE IS HE??" ( no I don't say that :) )

There’s a lot of wisdom in this thread that comes from well-founded experience: Good pedigree and the appropriate health checks will significantly increase the odds of your dog being a very good hunter, along with proper training of course.

What has not been mentioned however is that most hunters have limited budgets and their four-legged game-getting machine is also the family pet.


There’s no doubt that buying a Perazzi or a Krieghoff will assure a better gun, but for many of us it will be a Remington or perhaps a Browning. Pedigree and titles translate into bigger dollars, and the hunting dog world is not immune to price-inflating spin and hype.


Sometimes the qualities that make a champion do not necessarily translate into the kind of dog that will let your toddler tug on its ears.


A dog from a source you trust and a field-grade gun will make for wonderful hunts and fond family memories.

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Originally Posted by ninepointer

There’s a lot of wisdom in this thread that comes from well-founded experience: Good pedigree and the appropriate health checks will significantly increase the odds of your dog being a very good hunter, along with proper training of course.

What has not been mentioned however is that most hunters have limited budgets and their four-legged game-getting machine is also the family pet.


There’s no doubt that buying a Perazzi or a Krieghoff will assure a better gun, but for many of us it will be a Remington or perhaps a Browning. Pedigree and titles translate into bigger dollars, and the hunting dog world is not immune to price-inflating spin and hype.


Sometimes the qualities that make a champion do not necessarily translate into the kind of dog that will let your toddler tug on its ears.


A dog from a source you trust and a field-grade gun will make for wonderful hunts and fond family memories.

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The avarage price of a well breed pup from proven and winning coverdog field trial stock is practically equivalent to what you would expect to pay for some of the more popular papered pet breeds, between $600 to $1000 and arguably less than some of the trendy Gucci designer breeds. A great number of these litters are breed in a family environment that more often than not include children so they are well socialized and handled daily right from birth.
The most important issue a hunter that intends to have a hunting dog/pet fit into a family environment needs to consider in my opinion is the level of energy it possess and this is usually indicated by the kind of temperament it's sire an dam display especially the dam hence the importance of preferably seeing them and spending some time around both of them. If the dam is quirky, she will most certainly display such behaviour in the presence of a stranger around her little babies but if she is sound and level headed, she will be welcoming and proud to show off her little rascals to the world
Not all field trial stock is breed on farms or kennels with minimal human contact or socialization and producing high strung unruly dogs. Many owners are weekend warriors that like to participate in a little competition and extend their time enjoying their dogs beyond the hunting season, unlike a big majority of hunters that only take their dogs afield come hunting season and then put them up for the remainder of the year.
A common hunting dog and a field grade gun will make for wonderful hunts and great family memories and a high class bird dog and a fine double will just add some excitement and prestige to the experience.

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Originally Posted by sidelock

The avarage price of a well breed pup from proven and winning coverdog field trial stock is practically equivalent to what you would expect to pay for some of the more popular papered pet breeds, between $600 to $1000 and arguably less than some of the trendy Gucci designer breeds. A great number of these litters are breed in a family environment that more often than not include children so they are well socialized and handled daily right from birth.
The most important issue a hunter that intends to have a hunting dog/pet fit into a family environment needs to consider in my opinion is the level of energy it possess and this is usually indicated by the kind of temperament it's sire an dam display especially the dam hence the importance of preferably seeing them and spending some time around both of them. If the dam is quirky, she will most certainly display such behaviour in the presence of a stranger around her little babies but if she is sound and level headed, she will be welcoming and proud to show off her little rascals to the world
Not all field trial stock is breed on farms or kennels with minimal human contact or socialization and producing high strung unruly dogs. Many owners are weekend warriors that like to participate in a little competition and extend their time enjoying their dogs beyond the hunting season, unlike a big majority of hunters that only take their dogs afield come hunting season and then put them up for the remainder of the year.
A common hunting dag and a field grade gun will make for wonderful hunts and great family memories and a high class bird dog and a fine double will just add some excitement and prestige to the experience.

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Good comments and very much in context.

Just to broaden the above, you'll be at least at the $1000 mark for a well bred retriever. I see some litters from some National champions at $1500 and of course that can go higher. As for field trial bred dogs it would be fair to say that almost all are born and raised in a supervised and social environment.

I have yet to have a field trial retriever who wasn't a total family member in all regards, in fact there's one at my feet right now!

Good example of a fine double and a high class bird dog or maybe an intelligent hard driving retriever and a model 12.

The price of a well bred dog from proven bloodlines may be more expensive than a backyard breeder but the purchase price is still a bargain. In fact the purchase price isn't much considering the enjoyment and the other costs involved. What it comes down to is priorities. I am not a wealthy guy by any stretch but will spend more on guns than some people I know who earn more. I would spend more on a dog than many people but that's "my" choice and priority. I live in a modest home and don't drive fancy cars, don't smoke and drink very little. Bird dogs and hunting are a huge part of my life so to me the purchase price means very little compared to the quality of dog.

Aw shucks Terry! And I had my heart set on this champ!... ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ps0vwo705t.jpg

$1200 for a mutt. I bet they sell a few though.

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Originally Posted by terrym

$1200 for a mutt. I bet they sell a few though.

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They sell tons of these designer breeds.$1,200.00 is a bargain and have seen them advertised as high as $2,500.00

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[COLOR=#333333]A dog from a source you trust and a field-grade gun will make for wonderful hunts and fond family memories.

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Sign me up :)

My neighbour is going to breed his ankle biter (Maltese, I think) to another of the same breed in the neighborhood, they go for at least $1000, no papers. No health checks, no thinking about suitability of the mates and what kind of pups they will produce.

Cover dog setters go up to US$1000, but the best ones are usually not sold.
Munsters go for US1200-1800 and I heard Weims for around 2000, but those are fancy and 'rare' breeds.
Most versatile breeds are in the 1000-2000 range. The closer you get to a simple hunting dog, the cheaper it gets, like beagles. City folks are usually prepared to pay more for their stuff, incl. the dogs.
To anyone who says they don't have the 1-2K for the pup they want, I'd say you have no business of owing a hunting dogs, because the training, food and vet bills will be much much more. Gone are the days when the pups were only the hunting dogs, they're members of our families now, try telling the kids you had to shoot Fido, because the vet bill would have been more than the cost of a new one :(

Who gets the last word?
Keep it going

Like I said earlier. The purchase price is nothing compared to the costs of caring for a bird dog.

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Originally Posted by vom Dufenshmirtz

To anyone who says they don't have the 1-2K for the pup they want, I'd say you have no business of owing a hunting dogs, because the training, food and vet bills will be much much more. Gone are the days when the pups were only the hunting dogs, they're members of our families now, try telling the kids you had to shoot Fido, because the vet bill would have been more than the cost of a new one :(

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That's a pretty elitist statement to say that someone actually has "no right" to have a bird dog unless they pay for pedigree, titles and professional training. The cost of buying and owning a bird dog need be no more than the cost of buying and owning any other dog. A person who studies and puts in the time can train a dog himself. The training resources available today are incredible. That dog will not be polished enough to win titles, but then that owner is not interested in titles. The end results can be immensely satisfying for both owner and dog.

Who the hell said anything about shooting dogs???!!!

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Originally Posted by ninepointer

That's a pretty elitist statement to say that someone actually has "no right" to have a bird dog unless they pay for pedigree, titles and professional training. The cost of buying and owning a bird dog need be no more than the cost of buying and owning any other dog. A person who studies and puts in the time can train a dog himself. The training resources available today are incredible. That dog will not be polished enough to win titles, but then that owner is not interested in titles. The end results can be immensely satisfying for both owner and dog.

Who the hell said anything about shooting dogs???!!!

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Reading the recent post,he didn't say "no right" he said no business.They are completely different.
I think if you cant afford $1000 for a pup you probably should not invest in a dog ,regardless of breed.Doesn't mean you need to spend a $1000 ,but you better have extra funds, trust me unless your brothers a Vet. they will be more than a $1000 in vet bills.
Regarding shooting a dog ,in the past when you were not able or want to pay for a high vet bill they shot the dog.
I think no business really means being responsible .

Hunting dogs quite often injure themselves. Dogs that run flat out at in nasty cover are more prone to injury. When your dog ends up at the vets to get sutured or worse have surgery the bills stack up real fast. I think that's what Vom was alluding to. Most of us train our dogs ourselves but factor in the cost of fuel to go buy birds and then travel somewhere to do a shooting scenario and cost of birds it gets real expensive.

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Originally Posted by ninepointer

That's a pretty elitist statement to say that someone actually has "no right" to have a bird dog unless they pay for pedigree, titles and professional training. The cost of buying and owning a bird dog need be no more than the cost of buying and owning any other dog. A person who studies and puts in the time can train a dog himself. The training resources available today are incredible. That dog will not be polished enough to win titles, but then that owner is not interested in titles. The end results can be immensely satisfying for both owner and dog.

Who the hell said anything about shooting dogs???!!!

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Good point. "The cost of buying and owning a bird dog need be no more than the cost of buying and owning any other dog."

I am an advocate of buying a "well bred" dog. Well bred beagles come cheap - a few hundred bucks. Well bred spaniels - that's another story.

Maybe you can luck out on a mixed breed - maybe not. The dog (not mine) I worked with this fall is a lab / walker cross. Great looking big black and tan dog. Loves hunting *everything*. Even tries to catch chickadees. But he runs silent. Not what you want in a deer hound - but he is what he is.

I think we're probably tilting at windmills here. The OP wrote:

"My buddy was talking to a guy out of Windsor who was selling GWP on Kijiji and asked them about there hunting experience, he said they hunted amazing, and as for versatile they hunted everything, ducks,pheasant,rabbit,grouse,woodcock,geese and hard too. Just a couple Euro guys with great dogs breeding them together, and they were reasonably priced too. No mark up price just because of a title. Now I'm am not promoting puppy mill backyard breeding by any means. Has anyone purchased a dog like this who surprisingly turned out to be an amazing hunter?"

Yes, you can get great, non-papered hunting dog for less money. But I would only buy such a dog with some knowledge of and confidence in the sire and dam. So, in the case of the scenario that the OP has described, unless there is more information I would not buy that dog. The guy is going in blind. There are lots of ads like that on Kijiji.

You can think of pedigree as some measure of "quality assurance", but nothing is guaranteed. I've been down both roads; pedigreed and non-pedigreed (from a trusted source) hunting dogs. You can probably guess which one has worked out better for me.

city folks like fashion and they don't mind to pay for it big $$$. they spend for a sweater made in China three digit $ if the right label is on it. so why wouldn't they spend $1200+ on a breeding accident as long as it lends itself to show anyone that they are "special". beside the sofa, that's the often the only job the dog has anyways.
but we are not completely immune to that, are we. a bit of pedigree can be something prestigious and is always nice to talk about. it's just a different scale as we will eventually face the reality of our dogs' abilities (or lack thereof) and it becomes hard to justify spending over $2000 on a complete failure (be it the dog or poor training).
as was stated already, vet bills can be huge (and if your dog is a family member and you have kids, you'll likely pay if chances are it saves the dog). I'm one of those who has been willing to pay serious vet bills, but I do have my limit when it comes to buying a pup. Pedigree may shift the odds, but in the end of the day, buying a pup is always a lottery game.

I like this post.
When I used to go to the casino occasionally, I only played Black Jack. Best odds in the house.
Same goes with pedigree. A field trial champion title on the puppies parents & grandparents is an indication of soundness in a number of important areas of concern when it comes to the long term commitment of owning a dog.
Hunt desire, health, brains, tractability, & structural soundness. All have been trained and tested to the limits before a title is won, in most cases. The same cannot be said for show dogs and hunting dogs, even if the parents are capable hunters.
Luck is something best hoped for at a casino.

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Originally Posted by that a boy

Reading the recent post,he didn't say "no right" he said no business.They are completely different.
I think if you cant afford $1000 for a pup you probably should not invest in a dog ,regardless of breed.Doesn't mean you need to spend a $1000 ,but you better have extra funds, trust me unless your brothers a Vet. they will be more than a $1000 in vet bills.
Regarding shooting a dog ,in the past when you were not able or want to pay for a high vet bill they shot the dog.
I think no business really means being responsible .

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Thank_you_for_translating_my_post_to_English

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Originally Posted by Labber

Hunt desire, health, brains, tractability, & structural soundness. All have been trained and tested to the limits before a title is won, in most cases.

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Minor quibble: a field trial champion title is no guarantee of tractability in the era of the e-collar....

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I don't think there are ever any guarantees when dogs are concerned. Still I would try and improve my odds.

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Originally Posted by welsh

Minor quibble: a field trial champion title is no guarantee of tractability in the era of the e-collar....

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Not sure I agree that the ecollar is creating harder to control dogs.

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Originally Posted by welsh

Minor quibble: a field trial champion title is no guarantee of tractability in the era of the e-collar....

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There is no doubt that the era of the e collar has had a significant impact on training. Just as important are the sound, sequential programs developed originally by Rex Carr and expanded upon by others.

However, dogs must perform in field trials without collars to earn those distinctions....and that is a significant factor.

Tractability is still a highly sought out characteristic in retrievers. I need a willing partner not a rebel on his own to be successful at this game and dogs for sure know when collars are off.

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Originally Posted by Cass

Not sure I agree that the ecollar is creating harder to control dogs.

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I didn't say it had.

I said that in the e-collar era, a title does not guarantee tractability.

That's a fact. It was true before e-collars, and it's true today. You don't need to be consistent to earn a title. Patience and persistence will do it even if the dog blows it in trial after trial. Luck, too, plays a role.

I can name dogs that have the titles but are difficult to control. Titles often mean less than we like to think.

With e-collars, people are able to get better results out of dogs that might otherwise be much more difficult.

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I think our comments need to be in context with the type of dog and trials run.

In retriever trials you do need to be consistent. I guess out of the blue some dog could win but not likely. And as always luck can play a part but if you're not a consistent performer then not likely are you going to get through a 350yard water blind or complete a huge set of water marks that may take 20 minutes or so to get all the birds.

No doubt better results and consistency have come about with the advent of the e collar. Actually training methods have become more humane with the collar as well.

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

In retriever trials you do need to be consistent.

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In retriever trials, a dog that wins one trial never blows the next?

A dog that earns a title in 2016 will be stripped of that title if it runs poorly in 2017?

Not sure either statement is true.

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Originally Posted by welsh

In retriever trials, a dog that wins one trial never blows the next?

A dog that earns a title in 2016 will be stripped of that title if it runs poorly in 2017?

Not sure either statement is true.

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Of course a dog can go from a hero to a zero over the course of several trials but by and large those who are consistent have better chances to title in retriever trials. But competition is competition so things happen.

I think it is accurate to say that the use of a collar guarantees a higher degree of consistency which may be viewed as tractability by some.

I don't understand the comment about a dog being stripped of a title?

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This is why I like the hunt test system. If the dog has a bad day he gets nothing. In a field trial I may be wrong but regardless of performance they always award a win to the best dog performance? That could be a field of 6 dogs or 60. Not really apples/apples at that point. I have heard the show people play that game very well. The breeder who sold me my Brittany told me could virtually guarantee me a Show title. I have no interest in that but it does show that you can game the system.

From the pointing dog side of things, I like e-collars and use them. However they have also created dogs that are not as tough as in the past. To make it through the training programs in the past the dogs had to be literally tougher than boot leather. The e-collar has allowed dogs that would not make it through those programs to be successful, which is a good and bad thing. There are lots of dogs being bred that don't have the proper mental stability and toughness to make their breed better because of the e-collar.


As far a tractability and field trials. They are run without e-collars and if your dog doesn't finish with you, you aren't winning anything. You need a dog with some sort of desire to go with you and work with you in order to be successful.


Field trials aren't the be all and end all but they are a place to start. Everyone's idea of a good dog is different and trials set a standard that everyone can agree on. A title and a bunch of ribbons doesn't mean the dog should be bred but it is a reason to take a good look at him/her and make your own decision. Like I said in another thread, there are titled dogs in the grouse woods that I wouldn't want anything to do with and non titled dogs I would definitely take a pup out of.

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

I think it is accurate to say that the use of a collar guarantees a higher degree of consistency which may be viewed as tractability by some.

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My point is that to achieve similar results sans collar you would need a highly biddable dog. With retriever-world e-collar methods I think it's fair to say you'll get that consistency whether you gave the biddability or not. That's why the collar is now de rigeur.

Look at trainers who use a more punishment-based approach and it's even less likely a title indicates tractability.

When we say from a breeding perspective that titles indicate tractability, we're downplaying the role played by training. A dog may be consistent in the field in spite of being a hard-headed SOB thanks to training. The e-collar certainly plays a role in achieving that.

We might also consider that biddability may not be entirely inherited ... a lot of it probably comes from early training. Two people could turn the same dog into an entirely different animal. The same guy has won the Canadian spaniel amateur championship for something like nine out of the past ten years, and I don't think it's all in the breeding....

Now, the other things we ascribe to breeding -- desire, etc. -- are undoubtedly in the breeding and the titles prove it. But tractability, I'm not so sure.

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

I don't understand the comment about a dog being stripped of a title?

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Simply a point about hero to zero ... we don't take titles away. That may be a training problem as much as anything, but not all FTCHs are equally meaningful.


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Originally Posted by terrym

This is why I like the hunt test system. If the dog has a bad day he gets nothing. In a field trial I may be wrong but regardless of performance they always award a win to the best dog performance? That could be a field of 6 dogs or 60. Not really apples/apples at that point. I have heard the show people play that game very well. The breeder who sold me my Brittany told me could virtually guarantee me a Show title. I have no interest in that but it does show that you can game the system.

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In a field trial there will be a winner declared at the end of 2 days in AA stakes. Will that dog have had a 'bad' day...highly unlikely. The purpose of retriever trials is to examine the 'relative' merits of the dogs entered.

In a field trial a dog that has a bad day is usually out of the competition early on and for sure gets nothing. It is possible that all finishing dogs have some 'hole' in their performance but usually a long way from having a 'bad' day.

Our game is apples to apples. All dogs tested on the same set up and judged accordingly for performance.

There is never a field of 6 in our sport and there is a minimum of 8 qualified AA dogs in a stake for championship points to be awarded.

Hunt tests and field trials are two very different venues.

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Originally Posted by terrym

This is why I like the hunt test system.

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You can still make any number of attempts to get that title, though.

The key thing is that to jakezilla's point, seeing the title on the pedigree is less meaningful than knowing the dog behind the title.

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Originally Posted by welsh

My point is that to achieve similar results sans collar you would need a highly biddable dog. With retriever-world e-collar methods I think it's fair to say you'll get that consistency whether you gave the biddability or not. That's why the collar is now de rigeur.

Look at trainers who use a more punishment-based approach and it's even less likely a title indicates tractability.

When we say from a breeding perspective that titles indicate tractability, we're downplaying the role played by training. A dog may be consistent in the field in spite of being a hard-headed SOB thanks to training. The e-collar certainly plays a role in achieving that.

We might also consider that biddability may not be entirely inherited ... a lot of it probably comes from early training. Two people could turn the same dog into an entirely different animal. The same guy has won the Canadian spaniel amateur championship for something like nine out of the past ten years, and I don't think it's all in the breeding....

Now, the other things we ascribe to breeding -- desire, etc. -- are undoubtedly in the breeding and the titles prove it. But tractability, I'm not so sure.



Simply a point about hero to zero ... we don't take titles away. That may be a training problem as much as anything, but not all FTCHs are equally meaningful.


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I would never down play the role of training. Nothing could be more paramount.

In our trials , 10 points including major(win) are required to title. I guess your win could have come from 30, 40 or 75 dog trial but a win never the less.

We keep and publish performance data on all dogs running. Total trials run, finishing rates(%), total points and a break down of the placings. This data is available each year and published by NRCC and now Retriever Results. CKC also publishes our top dogs. Not hard to do some homework about consistency etc. It needs to be pointed out though that people often train/compete hard but then take breaks and run sparingly....not to mention the challenge of finances etc

The big male in my avatar won trials every year from age 2 until age 9. He literally won his title every year with his performances which put him on the top amateur dog list in Canada for most years. Not all dogs or competitors choose to do this.

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Originally Posted by Jakezilla

However they have also created dogs that are not as tough as in the past. To make it through the training programs in the past the dogs had to be literally tougher than boot leather. The e-collar has allowed dogs that would not make it through those programs to be successful, which is a good and bad thing.

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Jakezilla this post is quite interesting and opposite of what some say on this thread. Would you elaborate?

Jakezilla has it right, well said!

Question for JZ and Kraka. You are both very serious about trialing yet have very different venues. In your opinion would you say skill of trainer is more important than breeding? I used to trial when I was into beagles but have only done hunt tests and a gundog/ fun class at Hullett with my Britt. My limited experience is that the dog world is heavy to retired people with lots of free time. So, my opinion is the trainers should weigh heavier on the scales than pedigree. Don't get me wrong I definitely believe in looking for proven/titled bloodlines.

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Originally Posted by Cass

Jakezilla this post is quite interesting and opposite of what some say on this thread. Would you elaborate?

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Who said that e-collars produced hard headed dogs? Where is that on this thread?

You keep trying to put words in my mouth.

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The e-collar and training methods associated with them have made it so that he public can train their dogs to very high levels that were only achievable by pros and gifted amateurs in the past. This is a good thing for the sport but it also makes these same people believe that their dogs are better than they acutally are and these weak dogs get bred and produce weak dogs. The real high end dogs that better the breed aren't for the average guy and are usually too much dog for them. When these high end dogs are bred, if you are lucky, you will end up with one or two champion calbire dog and the rest will be hunting dogs. The kennels that breed "Gentlemen's Hunting Dogs" aren't doing their breed any favors and weaken their breed.


Also when I say there are non-titled dogs I would take a pup out of these are all trial dogs that I have seen compete repeatedly and have all the tools to be a champion they just haven't got the nod yet. Even if I was looking for a hunting dog I would still go to trial stock and competing dogs.

With pointing dogs you need the raw material to start with, a good dog, and you need to be a good trainer to be successful. At the same time I know dogs that win in spite of their handlers and handlers that win in spite of their dogs. A good trainer can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. I believe the dog and his natural ability is more important. You can't create a good grouse dog if that dog doesn't have the natural ability to start with. Not all bird dogs can be great grouse dogs.

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Originally Posted by welsh

Who said that e-collars produced hard headed dogs? Where is that on this thread?

You keep trying to put words in my mouth.

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Welsh I never said you said that. In general though people tend to think the ecollar has produced hard headed dogs. I'm interested as jakezilla says something contrary to many people's beliefs.

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Originally Posted by terrym

Question for JZ and Kraka. You are both very serious about trialing yet have very different venues. In your opinion would you say skill of trainer is more important than breeding? I used to trial when I was into beagles but have only done hunt tests and a gundog/ fun class at Hullett with my Britt. My limited experience is that the dog world is heavy to retired people with lots of free time. So, my opinion is the trainers should weigh heavier on the scales than pedigree. Don't get me wrong I definitely believe in looking for proven/titled bloodlines.

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A very good observation and subsequent question for sure.

I would say that to be successful one requires both...solid pedigrees and sound pedagogy of training. Not all people are good candidates to be trainers. Many never learn the observation, the timing, the nuances of reading your dog. Some think they train when all they're doing is exposing their dog to certain skills, never getting them to a high standard to be consistent. Some test too much. Some have no notion about breaking skills down to sub skills and subsequent ordering of teaching to reach end skills.


Our sport has become weighted with retired folks who have the time and interest to pursue this game. Many are the young people I started out with when we were so young. We got involved because we wanted great gun dogs and lead us down the path to field trials

Before there were Hunt tests ...there were just field trials. All the others(WC,WCX etc) came about later for various reasons. There were some who didn't find competition to their liking, there were some who pursued a scenario more closely representing a days hunt and there were show/obedience folk who wanted some level of field recognition on their dogs.

I think we're in a good place now where there is something for almost everyone. Not everyone can field trial, some are very serious hunters and recognize the skills that they require in their dogs and as such are interested in how to train their dogs. There is no doubt though, the testing ground that reveals the true talents of our superior dogs lies with field trials. Those inherent skills are often tested to the limit.

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

There is no doubt though, the testing ground that reveals the true talents of our superior dogs lies with field trials. Those inherent skills are often tested to the limit.

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I get that. You can have 5 FDX titled dogs who meet the mark but that really doesn't tell you which of the 5 is the best dog or choice for a breeding program. I have a new ES coming in January and plan on doing Hunt tests with her. Venues are usually plentiful and reasonable drives. I just don't have the time to follow a trial circuit for pointing dogs.

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Originally Posted by Jakezilla

The e-collar and training methods associated with them have made it so that he public can train their dogs to very high levels that were only achievable by pros and gifted amateurs in the past. This is a good thing for the sport but it also makes these same people believe that their dogs are better than they acutally are and these weak dogs get bred and produce weak dogs. The real high end dogs that better the breed aren't for the average guy and are usually too much dog for them. When these high end dogs are bred, if you are lucky, you will end up with one or two champion calbire dog and the rest will be hunting dogs. The kennels that breed "Gentlemen's Hunting Dogs" aren't doing their breed any favors and weaken their breed.


Also when I say there are non-titled dogs I would take a pup out of these are all trial dogs that I have seen compete repeatedly and have all the tools to be a champion they just haven't got the nod yet. Even if I was looking for a hunting dog I would still go to trial stock and competing dogs.

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That's funny ,Gentlemen's Hunting Dog's. Check out Old Oak Retrievers, British Master Hunter hunting dogs. Call them what you want but they come of excellent proven breeding programs out of many years of careful selection including all health clearances.. I have one of these labs and I am more than happy with her performance as a hunting and family pet. In fact I have more imports coming in the new year.

I deal with pointing dogs, you are talking about a retriever. I'll let Kraka field this one.

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Originally Posted by Jakezilla

I deal with pointing dogs, you are talking about a retriever. I'll let Kraka field this one.

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LOL whatever.Then leave out the Gentlemen's hunting dog comment because in the past it has insinuated the British Lab.

Judging from the content of many of the posts here, it seems that most of you guys work with your dogs, both during and off season. That’s of course how it should be and you should be commended.

But I’ve seen too many dogs who ability is about as thin as the pedigree paper backing them. That's because after the cash that was initially laid out to buy the dog and for a professional trainer to get it started, the owner has done little else other than take the dog and his Caesar Guerini out a couple of weekends each October. Great foundation, never been built on.

I guess that’s what frustrates me, along with the nauseating bragging about their dog’s legendary lineage and superb skill. The GTA seems to have lots of these crated wonder dogs.

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

That's funny. Check out Old Oak Retrievers, British Master Hunter hunting dogs. Call them what you want but they come of excellent proven breeding programs out of many years of careful selection including all health clearances.. I have one of these labs and I am more than happy with her performance as a hunting and family pet. In fact I have more imports coming in the new year.

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Have to ask the question....'What's funny?'

I checked their kennel out, looks like a very dedicated breeder but....I see no evidence that he competes on our continent with his dogs unless you refer to some of his females who have a JH or SH behind their name.

We had a good discussion going about training vs pedigree etc, now you bring the British 'experience' into it. We know that there are almost 0 British bred dogs competing on our circuit. We've been around this loop before and I choose not to dialogue anymore about that.

The fact you are happy with your dog and she is performing for you is absolutely great. It is always good news to hear the things about our dogs and how owners/handlers are happy but if you want to convince me about how great the dogs with British pedigrees are then tell me where and when I can expect to see some(one) competing at a field trial.....I'd like to be there.

By the way... Merry Christmas to you guys, there have been some good discussions!

Excellent thread.
Some of the comments made in this thread are brand new thoughts to me. To be able to make some of the generalizations stated one would have to have MANY years of breeding and training to substantiate that view.

I certainly don't believe that the "e collar has made for more hard headed dogs"....simply a training tool like a check cord.

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Originally Posted by ninepointer

Judging from the content of many of the posts here, it seems that most of you guys work with your dogs, both during and off season. That’s of course how it should be and you should be commended.

But I’ve seen too many dogs who ability is about as thin as the pedigree paper backing them. That's because after the cash that was initially laid out to buy the dog and for a professional trainer to get it started, the owner has done little else other than take the dog and his Caesar Guerini out a couple of weekends each October. Great foundation, never been built on.

I guess that’s what frustrates me, along with the nauseating bragging about their dog’s legendary lineage and superb skill. The GTA seems to have lots of these crated wonder dogs.

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I don't see any relevance whatsoever between geographical location and the quality of the dogs. Its obviously more practical and less costly to develop a dog if you live in the country than living in the city considering easy access to nearby training grounds and wild birds but putting in the hours and having the required knowledge and skills is imperative if you want to achieve your goal in developing a polished, high caliber performer whether it will be hunted or campaigned in field trials regardless where you live. Living in the city doesn't equate to having inferior dogs any more that living in the country equates to having superior dogs and I don't see how anyone can make such an unfounded statement about the GTA having lots of crated wonder dogs. You either got it or you don't and regardless of all the bragging, the dogs will ultimately speak for themselves.

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

Have to ask the question....'What's funny?'

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I have to say I never saw the answer to this question and I was a bit perplexed at it as well. I think the British/American dog debate has been beat to death. Labs in the UK that trial are judged against different standards and don't have the ability to be competitive in the extreme nature of tests here. Doesn't make them a bad dog just not competitive. What is bad is the notion that these dogs are somehow better than ours. This idea is perpetuated by breeders here looking for a certain niche of people to buy their dogs. I think in most cases these "British" dogs are simply just lines that don't have as much drive as a north American field breeding. For the average weekend warrior that is probably fine. A dog with less drive is easier to control if it's training is lacking. For someone who is not as experienced as a trainer a lower drive dog may make things easier on them. Obviously they have to have enough drive to want to retrieve and hunt but there are certainly varying degrees of that in different lines and different dogs. Krakadawn actually has a dog that I absolutely love - when training or hunting he is a real fire breather and it excites me. While that dog is always control and working with krakadawn I can't help but think that as much as I love watching that animal work with my current experience training that calm, calculated, fast fire-breathing dog would probably have me pulling my hair out if was my dog.

To touch on ecollars - because those standards of UK tests vary greatly from here they can get away without using an ecollar. From what I have seen training with retrievers - the ecollar isn't used because American bred dogs are any less cooperative. The ecollar is used as an effective means of communication at large distances that wouldn't be able to be accomplished between handler and dog without it - as well as to finesse and add precision in training.

I'm still wondering what's funny.

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

LOL whatever.Then leave out the Gentlemen's hunting dog comment because in the past it has insinuated the British Lab.

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Were you asking Jake to leave out the comment? I wasn't sure of what you meant because it was your comment to begin with??????

I see you were asked twice about the comment...' that's funny' but you've not responded to either....wonder why?

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

Were you asking Jake to leave out the comment? I wasn't sure of what you meant because it was your comment to begin with??????

I see you were asked twice about the comment...' that's funny' but you've not responded to either....wonder why?

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Then you need to reads Jake's comment to figure it out and why I replied to it . Then their would be no need for me to answer your comment......that is funny.

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

Then you need to reads Jake's comment to figure it out and why I replied to it . Then their would be no need for me to answer your comment......that is funny.

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Ah.... I see, you edited your posts so I understand now....

"LOL whatever.Then leave out the Gentlemen's hunting dog comment because in the past it has insinuated the British Lab."

Do we not understand both to be the same??

Maybe I'll see you at a field trial......Merry Christmas YD!

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

Ah.... I see, you edited your posts so I understand now....

"LOL whatever.Then leave out the Gentlemen's hunting dog comment because in the past it has insinuated the British Lab."

Do we not understand both to be the same??

Maybe I'll see you at a field trial......Merry Christmas YD!

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Someday I 'll make it out to a field trial. Keeping my focus these days on training and my new arrivals in the new year. One step at a time. Merry Christmas to you as well !

The E-collar. I never thought of that and how you make a not so good dog, good. Interesting.

Are E-collars allowed to be used during field trials and competitions?

I guess that might be a question to ask breeders, was the parents of a litter trained and controlled by e-collars. If so does this compromise the actual pedigree of that line of dogs?
I understand the there are different levels of use for the e-collar from stimulation correction and then there's lighting them up to comply.
Yes there are benefits of using the collar for safety when out in the woods for sure, but for controlling


Huummmmmmmmmm I have to think about this now before I comment further.

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Originally Posted by Big Gunner

The E-collar. I never thought of that and how you make a not so good dog, good. Interesting.

Are E-collars allowed to be used during field trials and competitions?

I guess that might be a question to ask breeders, was the parents of a litter trained and controlled by e-collars. If so does this compromise the actual pedigree of that line of dogs?
I understand the there are different levels of use for the e-collar from stimulation correction and then there's lighting them up to comply.
Yes there are benefits of using the collar for safety when out in the woods for sure, but for controlling


Huummmmmmmmmm I have to think about this now before I comment further.

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E collars are not allowed in any level of competition.

Would an e collar compromise a pedigree? Absolutely not. No more than an effective trainer vs an ineffective trainer. The pedigree remains the same, what is observable for sure is the performance and results.

"lighting them up to comply' is a very poor choice indeed. Proper collar conditioning does not promote that strategy. If you were with most advanced trainers you would hardly notice when the collar was applied especially when used in connection with attrition. There are numerous programs out that assist people in proper conditioning with their dogs. This is absolutely NOT the strap it on and light em up strategy in fact 'cold burns' should be avoided completely. A cold burn is when a handler arbitrarily decides to use the collar with no information conveyed to the dog. That resembles a 'lightening' bolt from the sky with almost no learning established. This is normally referred to as direct pressure.
The other side of the coin would be indirect pressure....for example sit(nick) sit or here(nick) here

In the end, the collar should be like my hand reaching out to reinforce already taught commands.

PS....Great trainers can make mediocre dogs look pretty good.

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

E collars are not allowed in any level of competition.

Would an e collar compromise a pedigree? Absolutely not. No more than an effective trainer vs an ineffective trainer. The pedigree remains the same, what is observable for sure is the performance and results.

"lighting them up to comply' is a very poor choice indeed. Proper collar conditioning does not promote that strategy. If you were with most advanced trainers you would hardly notice when the collar was applied especially when used in connection with attrition. There are numerous programs out that assist people in proper conditioning with their dogs. This is absolutely NOT the strap it on and light em up strategy in fact 'cold burns' should be avoided completely. A cold burn is when a handler arbitrarily decides to use the collar with no information conveyed to the dog. That resembles a 'lightening' bolt from the sky with almost no learning established. This is normally referred to as direct pressure.
The other side of the coin would be indirect pressure....for example sit(nick) sit or here(nick) here

In the end, the collar should be like my hand reaching out to reinforce already taught commands.

PS....Great trainers can make mediocre dogs look pretty good.

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Wow I like this post! It echos words from Retriever Hall of Famer Mike Lardy and sums up the correct method to use an e-collar as effective training aid.

We said Krakadawn.

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Originally Posted by Big Gunner

The E-collar. I never thought of that and how you make a not so good dog, good.

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The converse is also true: you can make a good dog not so good. And while making a not so good dog better takes skill, making a good dog into a not so good dog is something anyone can do....

The collar is a powerful tool but like any powerful tool it can do as much harm as good.

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Originally Posted by welsh

Minor quibble: a field trial champion title is no guarantee of tractability in the era of the e-collar....

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

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Of course I would disagree with this statement, but to each their own.
Tractability is not the FIRST priority for ME. I want a dog that has enough desire for birds that he will do anything to be allowed to play.
It's my responsibility as a coach to reign in behaviour or avoid letting it become an issue. That's how I see it anyway