So I have a couple feeders out for deer, but currently getting more bears eating then anything else.
I'm filling them weekly and just wondering if it's wise/legal to carry my shotgun with me while filling my feeders.
Can I carry for self defence?
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So I have a couple feeders out for deer, but currently getting more bears eating then anything else.
I'm filling them weekly and just wondering if it's wise/legal to carry my shotgun with me while filling my feeders.
Can I carry for self defence?
It depends on which area your feeders are in. The southern part of the province has a year long small game season and the northern part doesn't.
Ok that help's :) I think fox and yotes are open all year in my area, as are skunks.
Thanks
I bait nearly every day since mid July and for Spring bear never felt the need to take a gun.Make noise going in and keep observant and you won't have a problem.
Buy some bear spray or wait until bear season is open to bring in the shot gun. Once bear season is open you are game to carry a shotgun with hunter orange or just buy bear spray or make some noise while baiting.
Cary a gun. It just takes that one bear to decide he doesn't like you.
Rater have one and not need it , than need it and not have one.
Who cares what every once else says, if you feel that it is safest for you to bring a shotgun then bring a shotgun.
I have baited for bears and I always brought a gun in to the bait, most of our baits were in areas where you could be ambushed and I did not really care what anyone had to say, I felt safer with one so I brought it.
Legal or not....
http://www.timminspress.com/2015/08/03/body-of-missing-if-man-found
One reason why legal open carry side arms would be awesome for travel in Canada's wilds.Quote:
Originally Posted by seabast
A 12ga pump with a short barrel gets close though, hit the 26in minimum.
So we choose to enter the wild to bait wild animals then we want to carry a gun for protection? Doen't seem fair if we choose to bait them? I say give them a chance:)
In New Brunswick,it is illegal to carry a gun out of season and bear guides are not allowed to carry anything while baiting for a client. my buddy had a few close calls. Me I drive right to the bait and when I run across a few Bears talk to them and clap my hands.Some young Bears just do not want to leave,but move off while I bait.
I would have thought NB would have changed it laws after 30 years eh and they still havent.
Can you hunt on Sundays yet? I heard they were looking at changing it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenhorn
I had a friend talk calm and clap, the massive bear turned towards him and snapped his jaw. I am pretty sure my buddy needed new shorts about then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenhorn
I actually asked a question like this to a CO once. My circumstances were a bit different. I was dating this girl at the time and her family had a cottage up on Mississauga Lake (close to what is now the Kawartha Highlands Provincial Park) and a bear had decided to make itself a member of the family near a lot of people's cottages (so much so that the bear showed it wasn't afraid of humans during a few confrontations). I asked the CO if I could carry a rifle for protection during walks and I was told if he caught me, he would charge me with hunting out of season and I had best find another way around this problem.
Dyth
Definitely the best answer IMHOQuote:
Originally Posted by Fox
If there is a season open and you have your small game license, in southern Ontario for example where coyote season is all year long, you are absolutely legal to carry a shotgun with buck shot or slugs as that is legitimate ammo for yotes. A CO could not charge you in this situation providing you are not breaking any local bylaws...
The question I have, is would you use it to scare the bear off, or to shoot it? It would be out of season and not really classified as a nuisance bear, as you brought it there on purpose.
The problem is that they could charge you, if it sticks or not does not mean they cannot charge you.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffBondar
Dyth's comment was one from a CO that really did not have any clue about what was going on or just trying to be a jerk but this may be the case.
If they could charge you in this scenario then they could basically charge you all year every day.... There is no difference carrying a shotgun in winter for coyotes compared to summer when coyote season is still and always open...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I know someone who shoots yotes from over his bear baits all year round, but it would be a diff. story if they found you with a dead bear at your barrel ( out of season), and you said you had to shoot it because it was threatening and you feared an attack.
I dont know about the bears in Oxford Mills (lol) but after going into bait stands hundeds of times here in Nipigon I have never been charged.LOL. If you were charged by the time you got that gun off you shoulder he would be on you anyway considering you carrying bait, fryer oil.Like said before announce your presence be observant and you will be just fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Buy some "LESS LETHAL" rounds and carry the shotgun. First round out is rubber second and third is buckshot....CO asks show him the rubber bullets. They come five in a box just like slugs.
I would rather be standing there to tell the CO he is a pile for charging me, then being one on the ground.
Thanks for all the input. I'm not actually baiting for the Bears, I'm actually feeding the deer but the bears are eating too.
Up to this point I haven't felt that I need to carry anything, but as it's getting latter in the year the bears may be looking for food more often. I'd rather not be their food.
Looking at the time(s) on my cameras it seems one or more are visiting 3 times a day.
As for shooting a warning shot or shooting it?
I personally wouldn't fire at all unless I thought it was going to come after me, and then at that point it would depend on how much time I have. As I walk into my feeder I can see if anything is in the area. If I can see something then I'm turning back.
I can wait a couple more weeks until season opens.
Thank you for your ignorance, there are bears in our area, one was spotted down the road from my house and another near Kemptville. That does not mean that I was baiting bears at my house. We used to hunt in one of the areas with the highest bear populations in the southern half of the province.Quote:
Originally Posted by grandman
I have walked up on them at the bait, saw the picture on the camera 1 min before I got there. The bait location is in thick bush and setup for bows so the bush is really close to the bait.
I have not been charged but I wanted to be ready if I was. I also did not walk in with it on my shoulder, I would go in with a friend and 1 would carry the gun, the other would carry the bait.
Lol,you can hunt on Sunday's during deer season,no other time. carry a whistle around your neck. Drive to the baits and most times the Bears will leave. really worried carry. Bear spray. mine probably won't work it's about 20 years old,lol. I had Bears refuse to leave, but they were never aggressive and just waited for me to leave. I do have an axe in the side x side for imergency.
If you feel the need to carry a gun everytime you step into the bush,maybe you should stay out of the bush
i couldn,t agree more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Lk
I don't know what this CO was thinking,but,he was mistaken. Small game seasons for varmint/predators is open all year. He couldn't have charged you with "hunting out of season" as long as you had a small game license. It's legal to be using slugs or buckshot until the big game season opens in September.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
That's correct,BUT,after the big game season for Bear opens,if you carry slugs or shot greater than #2 or steel shot greater than BBB OR a rifle of greater muzzle energy than 400ft.lbs. (.22),you need to have a Black Bear license and be wearing blaze orange.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffBondar
I'm with Greenhorn on this one. All you need is bear spray. Studies have actually shown that it is more effective, with less injuries per encounter, than wounding a bear and getting it mad. Or even worse, have to shoot a cub and and get mom real mad at you. Ouch!
Now once the season is open, hell yea, carry a rifle and be silent going in. Not likely to happen with a midday feeding anyway, but you never know how your tag might get filled.:cool:
Cheers
Actually it seems this bear comes looking for food morning 4am-7 then 1-4 then again around 7-10 so I could see it any time!!
I would say you should stop feeding for a few weeks. You are baiting for deer but only bears are showing up.
I don't feel the need every time I step in the bush, was just seeing if I legally had the option to carry for protection.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Lk
It's getting later in the year and I don't want to encounter a bear that's willing to take me s food.
I'm not only getting bear coming to my feeder, I have fox, deer, raccoon, turkey, crows, squirrels, bear and even had a moose.
I don't mind that the bear is coming as the season opens in 3 weeks.
I can only go by what the CO told me. This was happening in summer and there wasn't any game seasons open except for coyote and I specifically said I was carrying the rifle for protection from this bear. I am not questioning you I am simply repeating what was said to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Say you are carrying your rifle for hunting coyotes and you are good to go :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
I don't carry a gun most times in the woods where bear are. I never had a face to face encounter, the bear always ran away. Would be interesting to here from someone that actually was attacked by a bear what his/her feelings would be. Playing the game is not the same as sitting in the stands.
Yup. That area is south of the line where Small Game lic. aren't valid in the summer. Small game lic and "going hunting for coyotes or crows" and you're GTG up till big game seasons when shot and caliber restrictions apply. The law doesn't say you have to be good at hunting coyotes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
The outcome would depend on your answers when questioned by the CO....Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
I'm inclined to agree. Mention firearms for Bear protection and everybody's butt goes to Sphincter Factor 10. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Don't say it for WMU 48, say foxes. No yote hunting in 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
http://files.ontario.ca/environment-...ife/239852.pdf buy some bear spray or break the law. Coyotes are not open all season up north... Bear attacks are rare. I bait with a buddy and we both bring in bear spray. Once the season opens bring your shotgun and buy a tag... Great tasting sausages and burgers..easier to use bear spray too then using a gun.
I wouldn't be breaking the law as fox, coyote are open all year in my WMU.
I'm not that far up north
Considering the fellow from Matheson Ontario was attacked killed an dragged off into the bush and his two dogs could not stop it. To each their own if you want to carry a gun go ahead.
I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six. If it ever comes down to making a quick decision,the Bear's a goner.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
In GEorgia, where I have family, hunters carry side arms when setting up, scouting, checking cams... etc... it's the norm..Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Gotta love 'Merica
Everyone's talking about COs charging people out in the bush... I haven't hunted as long as many of you, but I have seen a CO only once in the field in the decade or so I've hunted...and that was S. Ont. Fishing trips? maybe a few times. Not saying it should change your decision. If it's illegal, I would argue one should still obey the law.
Never encountered a Co while fishing.. or hunting... I've seen them. . (Ice fishing) but that's about itQuote:
Originally Posted by Splaker
I never had one leave the truck, they always waited for us to get back to our vehicle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Splaker
There is not really that much enforcement, I doubt you would ever see one during a closed season, during an open season generally during the busiest time and with an OPP officer to verify firearms licenses too. At least that is what I have run across, I have never seen one on the water but we don't fish busy places.
Don't know why you think a CO can charge you for carrying a gun I the bush. Nothing illegal about carrying a gun I the woods
Hunting without a license or out of season? That might be illegal.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
If you are going to try to convince him you are target shooting, you'd better be ready to show him where.
...and there's $500 fine for lying to a CO - even if you didn't do anything else wrong.
For me I wouldn't be hunting out of season, as fix and coyote are open year round.
My question was more can I carry for protection rather then for hunting.
I used to guide bear hunting for a few years and had dozens of active baits going. I never carried anything for protection and felt fine.
I'd wonder what the opinions of other hunting guides would be on this. Grandman also said he didn't carry anything.
Hey i'm not picking, but genuinely curious how did certain deterrents pan out. Could you link me to the said study?Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty55
We bait upwards of 50 stands.Very active baits and never carried anything.Were bears on the bait we I got there.Yes sometimes.I gave them a yell and they ran.I baited the stand and left.Be safe and observant and your good to go.I guess if you really feel the need bear spray would be your best bet.Quote:
Originally Posted by x_xeon_x
Wear BELLS on your shoe laces,lol.
No prob nomad. I saw it on a tv program and also read a magazine article that I recall, so I don't have any links, but you could try a search. It was based on injury stats from encounters, and the deterrents were bear spray or firearms. Obviously used as a last resort. There were more injuries involving people with firearms.Quote:
Originally Posted by nomad
Cheers
Good post smitty! why guys think they're safer with a gun as opposed to bear spray baffles me??? sure a gun has range but a bear out there is not a threat! I would feel awful if someone in our group got shot because of a shooting accident. In thick cover making snap decisions with adrenalin flowin - stuff can happen. You can't call the bullet back and a hospital is a long way away. If someone got sprayed accidently we'd both laugh about it later. Well the sprayer would laugh. not so sure about the sprayee!.. point is you wouldn't be looking at your best friends kids at his funeral!Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty55
Great PostQuote:
Originally Posted by SK33T3R
Can anyone post a bear spray test reports that were not done by a anti hunting or anti gun organization?
Interesting report out of the University of Calgary on this topic GW....Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
http://www.bearsmart.com/wp-content/...ro-Higgins.pdf
Great paper, thanks for digging it up. Despite the fact that the data is limited, the following shows already the pepper sprays' limitations:Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
“ In 38% (6 of 16) of the cases, the bear [brown bear] either continued to act aggressively (1 of 16) or briefly stopped but then resumed its aggressive behavior (5 of 16). In 3 of these cases, the bear attacked and injured the person using the spray….”
“in 3 of 4 cases black bear either charged (2 cases) or vocalized aggressively and then approached...In the fourth case, the bear exhibited predatory behavior … In 1 case the bear was shot and killed after being sprayed. In another case the bear left after a shotgun was fired…in the other the bear followed and the person was finally able to make it to camp, but only after firing a bear banger.”
It seems to spook browns but blacks seem to come back and at best it worked maybe 50% however the blacks did not always leave.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waftrudnir
Shotgun sounds like a much better option.
People make bad shots with the bear at a barrel feeding.Now imagine making that shot at a bear in full charge.Most people would be still trying to get the safety off.Quote:
Originally Posted by rev500ss
OR, too busy shaking crap out of your pant leg !!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by grandman
Ever consiider that you can carry both?? Hit them with the bear spray, step back as I think the bear will atleast stop or veer off to one side momentarily atleast!! Even clean water sprayed in your eyes will make them sting for a split second. And if bear is still looking kinda unfriendly then hit him with your rubber shot first! After you sting his eyes and essential kick him in the ribs, he won't stick around! And how many of those bear spray statistics showed how well aimed the bear spray was!! A half can sprayed on the bears butt cheeks might give him diaper rash but not emmidiately deter him!!! Needs to be in the eyes and nose!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty55
Great, thanks i'll try to find something. I figured out good source of papers for medical stuff, but not for the outdoorrs yet.
Nothing illegal about carrying a gun in the woods unless specified in hunting regs regarding types of guns and ammo during certain open seasons. Besides that there is nothing illegal. There is no laws saying you cannot carry a NR firearm in wilderness areas for personal protection or protection of property. BTW who said anything about hunting?Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
Quote:
Originally Posted by rev500ss
This is really an area of concern, that the MNRF needs to re-evaluate. On the site ask A CO, a grouse hunter asked if he could carry slugs with him for bear while out grouse hunting. The CO's replied was yes, provided he wore hunter orange and had a bear licence. This miffed me for a bit until I checked out the bear season, and found it ran from the beginning of September until the end of November in most WMUs. Walking around with slugs in your pocket and not being dressed in hunter orange or having a bear licence, basically puts you in a position of violating the Fish and Game Conservation Act. Even if your primary concern is self defense and self preservation. However pg. 79 of the 2015 regulation under Firearms, appears to cut you some slack if you hunt south of the French and Mattawa Rivers during an open season for deer that is restricted to the use of bows. The Archery Season for deer in my WMU is October 1st. So from September 19 until October 1 I'm wondering if the MNRF is liable to provided me with a CO to ride shotgun with slugs, while I'm out grouse hunting with bird-shot , in the event that I come across an aggressive bear. I suspect this is a ploy to get you to buy a bear licence and wear hunter orange, or wait until the Archery Season for deer before you go grouse hunting.
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut
There is s presumption in the FWCA, if you are carrying a firearm where game is normally found, you are hunting, UNLESS you prove otherwise. Just be prepared to tell your story to a JP...Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
As a bear guide it is my job to ensure that my customers are safe at all times.
While baiting and taking clients to the stand I carry a "legal" side arm. Both my partner and I are licensed to carry sidearms in our BMA. These are not easy to get and must be renewed on a yearly basis.
Both my partner and I have been confronted and charged by bears on our baits but we have not had to dispatch any of these bears.
I recommend carrying a firearm and be very attentive when approaching a bait.
I always carry a sidearm when visiting my grow-ops in the bush... am I breaking any laws?
A load of bird shot at 5ft is the same as a slug, it may actually hit harder than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
If you are concerned about defense loads you can use up to #2 lead, find a few boxes of heavy rounds and keep that with you. Another option is the Federal Controlled Wad turkey loads, they make them in 20ga and 12ga, the wad does not have petals so the shot holds together and will act like a slug at close range.
Hi Fox, not wanting to start anything but this is very incorrect. There are lots of studies and videos you can watch online when they compare birdshot to buckshot to slugs mostly in the name of self defence. Lots of interesting things to watch when tested on drywall at close proximity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
At 5 ft that slug will likely pass right through you and the 2 people standing behind you. I doubt any birdshot would pass through a human at that distance. I'm not saying it isn't lethal but the 2 methods are not comparable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Fox is correct ...I posted this trial a few yrs back when the topic came up...Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffBondar
This is 2 3/4 #5 shot from 8' away thru a 3/4" piece if plywood....
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...ps336905ae.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...psb45ea7e8.jpg
It has nothing to do with penetration through the bear, all you have to do is get the shot into the vitals and the animal is dead. There are lots of self defense articles stating how rifles, handguns and shotgun slugs are by far the least safe rounds for self defense as they do penetrate building materials and can kill someone in another room or house (see the post a few weeks ago about a guy shot by his neighbour). A round of shot at 5ft, even #7.5 shot has enough power to go through the bear and into the vitals, no problem there.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffBondar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFqaj_lmVjc
Gotta agree with Jeff on this. If you want to compare the two, shoot them into a chunk of pine or something like it. Slugs - even the soft foster style ones will give far better penetration than bird shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffBondar
However - in practical terms wrt bear defense, I think either would work okay - assuming you are shooting the bear in the face at close range. Where the birdshot would be less effective is if you hit the bear in the shoulder - where a bit of penetration is required.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
There have been some tests with ballistic materials as well, the heavy loads of shot at close range are nasty, once the shot slows down it turns any which way, similar to a bullet tumble but when a 1 1/8oz load of #7.5 with about 400 pellets it opens up in a devastating way.
Here's a real world video on actual meat, birdshot does not penetrate to get to vitals....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wCnKo6-NKQ
At close range there is almost no difference, I am not talking yards but rather feet. If you are shooting the bear at 30 yards it is not a life and death situation, if the bear is 10 feet away and you shoot it in the face, shoulder, hind end, either way it is either going to turn the bear, kill the bear or piss the bear off, one of 3 options. The head of a bear is super strong, shoot under the chin rather than at the head and you have a better chance of stopping the bear no matter what you are shooting.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
See my link above, the birdshot at close distance does not penetrate....Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Understood, but human vitals (especially the heart) aren't behind 4" of meat......and human flesh is a lot easier to penetrate than 3/4" plywood.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffBondar
No doubt about that, but we are talking about bears :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Also, you have to punch through rib bones before you get to the human heart. I'm not saying it's not effective, I'm saying you can not compare birdshot to slugs at any range....
your video link was discussing home defense..ergo my ref to a 'center of the chest' shot on a scumbag :)Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffBondar
Well I'll have to disagree....my experience, witness and pics prove out that bird shot, at close range, is compatible to the stopping power of a slug.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffBondar
No problem, we will agree to disagree :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Did you watch the video I posted where the birdshot did not penetrate the 4" of meat while the slug devastated it?
A black bear does not have a whole heck of a lot between the vitals and the hair, they are not armor plated.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffBondar
You may not be able to compare the penetration of the slug to the birdshot but at 5ft it will not matter at all, a 1 1/8oz ball of shot vs a 1oz slug both at similar speeds and the bear will not have any clue which it was hit with.
I agree with you, it will all be effective at 5'. The only point I was trying to get across is that birdshot and slugs cannot be compared. The birdshot releases it's energy immediately. If we were talking something along the lines of 20' which really isn't that far the birdshot becomes useless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I'm actually surprised that this is being discussed by guys on a hunting board...Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffBondar
There is some real basic physics being ignored by some who'd I think would know better.
Before you go on posting about how birdshot penetrates as well as slugs, do a little real world test of your own - on a roadkill or something, and you'll change your mind. I tried to get the head off a dead buck with a shotgun once using birdshot...and it wasn't easy.
Werner, MikePal did some real world research on some rotted plywood :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
I know I'm stirring the pot a bit here but there is a bit of common sense missing in the birdshot / slug comparison
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffBondar
I don't know about the rest of you but, if I had a bear charging me for real, I'm not going to wait until he is 5 feet from me!!!
I personally would go with the slugs over birdshot
... and spend how much time unloading your bird shot and searching for the slugs in your pocket?Quote:
Originally Posted by bushman
Better be loaded for bear then switch out for birdshot once the grouse busts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waftrudnir
Splitting hairs again!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Waftrudnir
Going to put more bait out at an active sight,I believe was the initial thought train of this thread? That's why I said slugs!!
However if I had birdshot in, and a bear charged me I "might " use the bs, rather than reload with slugs!!! Duh, let me think about that!
Walking in to a bait or a feeder where you have knowledge of bears coming around I would be walking in with the 12ga loaded with slugs and not care what any CO or person on this board says.Quote:
Originally Posted by bushman
If I were hunting grouse and worried about a bear I would stop worrying and shoot it at close range with birdshot if that is all that I had.
Exactly Fox!! Common sense is a wonderful thing!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffBondar
I think that is the point guys are missing...were discussing a self defense situation and having to shot a charging bear with a shotgun loaded with birdshot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
and the answer is yes...It will STOP the bear...it won't 'devastate' it like a slug will...but it will STOP the bear.
Especially if you shot it in the face and blind it or better yet shot it in mouth and sever the spine at the back of the throat.
It's about breaking off the attack...not necessarily about killing the bear with a well placed shot to the vitals.
So how much are you going to wager that I can't replicate those results with a new piece of 3/4 plywood :)Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffBondar
LOL, I know you will get the exact same results :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
My pellet gun also punches holes through plywood weather or not it's rotted or not
It's all good
Bushman. You had better wait till the bear is 5 feet away. If I remember correctly the definition of a charging bear that can be dispatched according to the MNR and CFO is approximately 7 feet. Anything further and it is deemed not a threat and cannot be fired directly on.Quote:
Originally Posted by bushman
Didn't know they had quantified it that precisely and I sure wouldn't wait until he go that close. If he knows I am there and starts to approach me, that's all I'd need.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearhunter
When I see the videos of guys in tree stands that the bear climbs up to...that's just nuts.
Didn't know that either Werner!!Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
But if a yell and or a warning shot doesn't persuade him to leave and he is still charging, my 7 feet would be more like 7 yards!!
I am not going to wait and shake hands with him before I take the safety off!
I would sooner pay a fine than be bear bait, and likely most folks would be on the same page??
Likely fire one high first as a warning, after that it's game onQuote:
Originally Posted by bushman
I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
7 feet is way to close for me , if I yell at the bear and stand up and he comes toward me . Then I will empty any gun I have at the time.
Chances of this happening are very rare though so I would not concern myself to much with it ever happening.
Still rather wrestle with a bear then touch a snake
I have had one bear climb the tree I was in. When he stuck his head over the foot rest of the treestand I kicked him in the nose. Surprised him.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
According to the CFO responsible for licensing for Wilderness carry the first shot is into the ground in front of the bear. The second is when they are within approx. 5-7 feet and the third shot is into the mouth of the bear.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffBondar
Thanks for all the responses. I have been back to fill the feeders and again went without my gun.
My first feeder I can see clearly and wasn't as worried it was the one that was in the thick stuff I was more concerned about as there was is really no escape route.
I'll be filling again this weekend and this time I'll probably bring my shotgun. For me I'll have a round of birdshot then two slugs. I just hope I don't need to use one until Sept!
Thanks again for the responses.
Thanks for the tip. That is safer...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearhunter
I agree with JeffBondar snakes are scarier.
I've hunted bear but never been charged. Despite this I would expect it to occur very fast, more comparable to wing shooting, then bear hunting. I don't think the shot or calibre would be as fundamental as having the skill under pressure to hit your target. Even at close range.
I guess whatever you are more comfortable with. I am a believer in the bear spray.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Did you notice the phrase referring to the rifle does not state "a rifle capable of greater muzzle energy than 400 ft-lbs. I've been trying for sometime to have the MNRF change the regulation to insert the word 'capable' otherwise any firearm that you can load down to below 400 ft-lbs should be legal to carry. In using the 400 ft-lb criteria they were attempting to include all rim-fire rifles up to and including the 5 mm RRFM. However any person that reloads can easily load a 30-30 Win, 303 British, 308 Win, 30-06 Sprg, or even a 45 calibers down to under 400 ft-lbs. I have a cast bullet for a 32 caliber pistol, which I load in front of 6 grains of Unique which can be loaded for most .30 caliber firearms, which falls with the guideline. Failing that you can load a number 1 buckshot pellet in front of a simpler charge, and have some great small game shooting. I queried this regulation with one of the heads of enforcement for the MNRF, and when he sent the 400 ft-lb statement back to me, in his mind he inserted the word 'capable' in spite of the fact it is not there in print. He chooses to rely on industrial standard to eliminate firearms. However, when you reload ammunition there is no requirements that you adhere to industrial standards. So its a flawed piece of legislation that needs to be re-evaluated and amended. Another suggestion that would work is limit the use of firearms, that can be used for small game, during the open big game seasons, to rim-fire firearms only. This was apparently what they were attempting to do but they overlooked the versatility of center-fire firearms when it comes to people reloading. In my mind the way that the regulation is currently written could use a court challenge.
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut
Good Luck With That? So you end up with one pissed off bear, that has already proven to be aggressive, and is now half blind and infuriated. It runs into someone else a quarter mile away, possibly a late season cottager cleaning up around his cottage, who is entirely caught off guard as the bear burst out of the woods and comes at him. Build whatever scenario you like. If you shoot, you do so to kill. You don't leave a mess for some else to clean up. And bird-shot is one poor substitute for a slug.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you give up hunting.
- Gun Nut
I didn't notice that. The only reason I can think of why it wasn't worded like that is so that every charge laid under that scenario would require scientific technical evaluation by engineering experts in every case to prove the rifle,shot size fell within the criteria. That would cost a small fortune every time. The government would never want to spend that kind of money just to prosecute a charge. Of course,this is only conjecture on my part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
Oh yeah,this would be a really bad scene without doubt. Wounded Bears should be avoided at all costs. If one needs to shoot,kill it. Let the chips fall where they may. Like I and someone else posted,it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenhorn
A friend of mind, thought his bear spray probably wouldn't work either. He decide to see if it would. It worked just fine. He found after the fact, that bear spray has a considerably long shelf life.
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut
So what's the difference if you douse his eyes with Bear Spray or fill them with Birdshot ? You still have a pissed off bear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
If all you have in the chamber is birdshot...you shot it in the face or in the mouth if it's open.
It's about STOPing the attack..who cares what the bear does when it pissed off and running away. It's your survival that is the priority. Once your clear of the area, then if necessary, you call the MNR...or go back in after the wounded bear when you have some help, the right equipment and ammo.
It's not a Hunting scenario...it's about Survival...it's bad enough few people will even know how to respond if it was happening to them, but to hesitate because you might wound the bear, may cost you your life.
Besides as was shown, at 7' the pattern from birdshot is not much bigger than a slug so it will go straight thru the eye sockets and into the brain.
that's exactly what bear spray often does, according to the study referred to earlier in this tread.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Some might argue you're is his territory and it's his safety that is paramount:)
Out of season of course:)
just carry the gun, you are legally able to carry one with your firearms license, google RCMP using a firearm for wilderness protection.
you don't need a small games licence to carry your gun for protection. if you are hunting small game at the same time that's where your gun regs come in (cant carry a rifle blah blah). bear hunters get charged all the time heading into "bait" it usually is just a bluff charge, but get in between the sow and her cub and it will be a very serious charge, and its even worse when your hands are full with buckets of bait!
I have a friend who has been baiting and hunting bears for years and even works as a professional guide for dogwood adventures and he recommends bear spray. It is what we use baiting. Once the season opens September 8 carry a gun and wear a vest and you are legal. Only a week away.
not necessarily. I was there only once (couldn't say it was comfy without spray nor firearm), but the sow was used to "check out" people for food. stood my ground with as much huffing and puffing as humanly possible. she just figured that's not worth it. next day same sow with cubs got chased by dogs. sow sends cubs up the tree. guy calls dogs back, sow and cubs move casually on (way more comfy watching from a distance others problems)Quote:
Originally Posted by revr
the point is that the sow was not surprised by all of it one bit; she was the one controlling both situations
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearhunter
Charging bear at 7 feet...good luck....by the time you decide to shoot it will be on you.
I don't believe the MNR or CFO have ever made any kind of definition.
I was told by a CO close friend that it would help if you had a few stitches to back up your claim. That about removed all doubt. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by brent
I'm afraid I don't have one of those high priced shotguns capable pin-point accuracy for shooting at the eye socket on a bobbing head of a charging bear. When I shoot is will be to kill, and it won't be bird-shot. That's how I translate the idea of Survival. It's better, also, to be the carrying the right ammo for the first responds, than chase back afterwards with it. In the meantime leaving a wounded and suffering bear behind in the woods. In fact it is bloody cruel and inhumane, and show a real want of respect for the creature being shot. I understand the MNRF is big on hunter ethics in their Hunter Education Programs, well here is an area where they need to cut hunter some slack in order to exercise proper ethics, instead of treating them with suspicion, because the have a slug or two with them to meet such a situation should it occur. I suspect such a situation is not likely to happen more than once in a or twice in lifetime. If it become a frequent occurrence that's another matter.
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut
Again..your thinking like a 'hunter' not a man trying to save his life...two different scenarios.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
It's a point and shoot situation...with whatever you holding..consequences (to the bear) be darned.
Keep the ethics lecture for when there is a choice..
I was told by a forester in BC, they carried shotguns. First round was bird shot, the rest were buckshot then slugs......
Like Brent said, at 7 feet you wouldn't have enough time to realize what was happening, let alone react.
Lol,guides in New Brunswick are NOT ALLOWED to have a gun while tracking a wounded bear during day light hours.
Huh...look at that, Bear spray works...who wouda thunk...
Quote:
One man is in hospital after he and another man were charged by a bear while they were riding ATVs in the MD of Bighorn west of Calgary.
EMS and STARS air ambulance were called to the area around Highway 940 and Hunter Valley Road at approximately 8 p.m. on Saturday.
The two men were riding ATVs when they came across a bear and her cubs. When they tried to leave the area, the bear charged and knocked the men from their vehicles. They fired bear spray and the animals soon retreated.
One 31-year-old man was flown to hospital and is in serious but stable condition, while the other man was treated on scene for minor injuries.
There is no word on the type of bear involved in the attack.
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/bear-attac...174357951.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
-Gun Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
-Gun Nut
Unfortunately us honest hunters pay the price of dishonest poachers. Those who try to circumvent the law buy carrying slugs without the proper big game licences when required have screwed it up for us honest guys who would like to carry a slug or 2 for protection. If we turned in and got rid of more poachers, the c.o.'s might let up a little where common sense could prevail.
Not every place do you need a big game license to carry slugs, buckshot or even a 270 winchester.. My area Yotes are in season year around and only require a small game license.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redd foxx
Once bear season opens, you need a bear license for buckshot/slugs/cf rifle.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
Agree - we're not talking about 'hunting' here, we're talking about survival.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Yeah I guess I should have added that. But I took his thread to mean you could never carry slugs any time of the year except Big game season.
Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
you can carry any non restricted firearm anytime of the year if you have a firearms license as long as it is for wildlife protection.
calibre etc doesn't matter.
the only time it becomes an issue is if you are small game hunting. if you are not hunting and you are just walking in the bush you can carry your 300wsm or whatever you want under the rights of your firearms license.
as stated in the hunting regs (if you are small game hunting in an area where there is a open season ................)
this statement starts as if you are small game hunting, that's the key, if you are not hunting you can carry whatever you want as long as its a non-restricted firearm, unless there is a municipal bylaw against it.
Not sure where you got this, but it is not correct. What a firearms license permits (carrying an unrestricted firearm in the bush) and what the fwca permit (with respect to hunting seasons, etc) are completely separate.Quote:
Originally Posted by revr
Take a minute to look through the hunting regulations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
go on the RCMP website and look up carry of firearm for wildlife protection, that's allows you to carry the firearm in the bush,
then go in the small games section of the hunting regs, that is where you will find the firearm restrictions,
BUT remember, this guy is wondering about carrying a firearm for wildlife protection, he is not hunting at the same time! if he was hunting then the hunting rules would come into effect, that's the key, he is not hunting!
to make it easier, can you please note the page number of the hunting regs that states its illegal to carry a firearm?Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
Again, what the firearms act allows does not override provincial game laws.Quote:
Originally Posted by revr
You need to follow both, and the hunting laws do not allow "carrying for wildlife protection", unless you have a valid hunting license for that wildlife. If you try that explanation with a CO during bear season, you may be charged with hunting without a license. If bear season is not open, you may be charged with hunting bears out of season.
This is not an RCMP (federal gun law) issue. It is an Ontario hunting law issue. Have a look at the hunting summary to see what you are and are not permitted.
What you don't seem to realize is that if you are walking in an area where game may be expected to be found (based on CO's opinion), with a firearm you are considered to be hunting. If you want to explain to the CO that you are target shooting, you had better be prepared to show him where you were shooting targets.Quote:
Originally Posted by revr
If you are even driving bush roads with an uncased rifle, you are considered to be hunting.
A small game licence is not valid in some parts of northern and central Ontario from June 16 to August 31. For more information see page 15 and the map on pages 10-11. Additional licence information and fees can be found on page 15.
Firearms
If you are hunting small game in an area where there is an open season for deer, moose, elk, or black bear, you may not possess or use a rifle of greater muzzle energy than 400 foot-pounds or shells loaded with ball or with shot larger than No. 2 shot (non-toxic equivalents include steel shot larger than triple BBB, or bismuth larger than double BB), unless you possess a valid licence to hunt deer, moose, elk or black bear as the case may be. This restriction does not apply south of the French and Mattawa Rivers during an open season for deer that is restricted to the use of bows.
see that's the thing, that restriction is under small game hunting! not in the general rules section, and it starts "if you are hunting small game" he is not, if it wasn't a small game/hunting restriction than it wouldn't be written that way. it would be written "if you were in the bush where there is an open season for deer, moose,.......etc" the rule is spelt out as you quoted from the hunting regs, IF YOU ARE HUNTING SMALL GAME ........, it doesn't matter how you explain it to a CO, they are not always right, and if you were not hunting small game or hunting at all and a co tried to charge you for it, all you would have to do is take the hunting regs to court and it would be over.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
gun law is on the justice website and RCMP. hunting law is different, but if your not hunting then those rules don't apply
On the RCMP page related to use of firearms for wilderness protection, please not the following paragraph:Quote:
Originally Posted by revr
Note: This information applies only to the rules under the federal Firearms Act. Other laws and regulations may apply. For example:
- The National Parks Wildlife Regulations typically restrict the use of firearms in national parks, even though they may be "remote wilderness areas".
- Provincial regulations or municipal bylaws that restrict the use of firearms in a particular area may apply.
- Provinces may have restrictions on firearms usage outside hunting season to prevent poaching.
- Provisions in the Aeronautics Act apply to pilots who fly aircraft in wilderness areas
Using a Firearm for Wilderness Protection In general, the only firearms allowed for wilderness protection are non-restricted rifles and shotguns. The following individuals, provided they are Canadian residents and have a licence that allows them to possess restricted firearms, may be authorized to carry a handgun or restricted long gun for wilderness protection:
- licensed professional trappers, and
- individuals who need protection from wild animals while working at their lawful occupation, most often in a remote wilderness location.
Licence and Registration Requirements
Under the Firearms Act, all firearm owners and users require a firearms licence, and all restricted or prohibited firearms must be registered*. When in possession of a firearm, an individual must be able to produce a firearms licence for inspection when asked by a peace officer. If it is a restricted or prohibited firearm, they must also have the associated registration certificate.
Take the regs to court and it would be over, yes, but not in your favour.Quote:
Originally Posted by revr
The above has been to court countless times and if the CO thinks you were hunting, so does the judge.
Where your interpretation of the above falls apart is:
a) The FWCA does not make any allowance for carrying firearms for protection from wildlife.
b) The FWCA does not make any allowance for going for a walk in the woods with a firearm and ammo as a non-hunting activity. Gun+ammo+area where game could be expected to found is hunting, unless you have a very good explanation.
still have to read it as "while hunting small game"
See the paragraph I posted above, taken from the same page. You can't just cherry pick there web site for what suits your fancy. They explicitly state that other regulations may apply (and they do).Quote:
Originally Posted by revr
just got off the phone with the MNR, they said you can carry a firearm unless you are hunting, if you are hunting you have to follow the hunting regs, definition of hunting is on pg 86 of the hunting regs. I am trying to get ahold of a CO to verify with them!Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
I will let you know what they say.
im not here to argue, just would like the actual answer. if it wasn't in the small game restrictions it would be no question.
Your above post is confusing. Is it you CAN carry, or CANT carry.....if they said you CAN'T carry a firearm, that blanket answer is wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by revr
You CAN carry IF you can prove you are not hunting. There was just an article in OOD on traditional bow hunting. It mentioned carrying his bow in the off season stump shooting in the bush. This would be lawful.....
Gun+ammo+area where game could be expected to found is hunting, unless you have a very good explanation.Quote:
Originally Posted by revr
they said you can carry a firearm in the bush if you are not hunting, but if you are hunting you have to follow the hunting regs on firearms.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
ok just talked to a CO, they read through the regs with me on the phone, you can carry any non-restricted firearm any time of the year if you are not hunting. at first they said no, until they read the regs, after, they said that because of the way it is written that I was correct and it is only an issue if you are small game hunting. they also said they would have a lot of questions if they found someone in the bush with a high powered rifle, BUT if it is for wildlife protection eg baiting, canoe trip, camping ETC then there is nothing they can do, you are perfectly legal. but if they have reason to believe you are hunting you could end up in court.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
it comes down to the way its worded and the fact that it is has the small game season in the rule.
they said its no different than target shooting, you can take your rifle out anywhere that's safe and target practice with any calibre you want as long as its non-restricted.
In the 2015 regs. there is a little catch all cause under CO page 28. It states that a CO is entrusted with the authority to enforce several different statue laws, and may..."Arrest anyone he believes has committed, is committing or is about to commit an offence." Also he may, ... "Seize items related to the offence."You may have your day in court' but in the meantime the CO will be holding on to all the evidence, guns, car, boat etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by revr
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting
- Gun Nut
Would I ever like to have that in writing. Is there any chance you could contact the CO again and have him put that in writing and when you get it in hand, scan it and posted it.
You don't stop hunting because you get old. You get old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
no, im not going to ask them to write up what is already written right in the regs, also it takes a while to get through to a CO, but you can always call your district office and ask to talk to enforcement and you can ask a CO their take on it.
The trick is to prove you are not hunting. If the CO see's you walking through the forest carrying a firearm let's say shotgun, rifle and nothing is in season. How do you intend to prove you are not hunting?? As it sure would appear that you are hunting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
...and that's the problem with revr's plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
It's been to court many times in Ontario already. If you have a gun and ammo, and are in an area where game may be expected to be found, the CO will assume you are hunting (a reasonable assumption) unless you have a very good explanation. And if the CO thinks you were hunting, the judge will go with the CO's opinion.
As far as carrying a firearm for wildlife protection, the FWCA does not make any allowances for that. The above will still be applied.
Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
I don't have a plan, I don't carry a gun unless I am hunting,
the question was is it legal or not.
http://www.oodmag.com/community/imag...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by revr http://www.oodmag.com/community/imag...post-right.png
Using a Firearm for Wilderness Protection In general, the only firearms allowed for wilderness protection are non-restricted rifles and shotguns. The following individuals, provided they are Canadian residents and have a licence that allows them to possess restricted firearms, may be authorized to carry a handgun or restricted long gun for wilderness protection:
- licensed professional trappers, and
- individuals who need protection from wild animals while working at their lawful occupation, most often in a remote wilderness location.
Licence and Registration Requirements
Under the Firearms Act, all firearm owners and users require a firearms licence, and all restricted or prohibited firearms must be registered*. When in possession of a firearm, an individual must be able to produce a firearms licence for inspection when asked by a peace officer. If it is a restricted or prohibited firearm, they must also have the associated registration certificate.
A see a couple of issues with your argument here...Quote:
Originally Posted by revr
1. The statement you posted from the RCMP doesn't state that anyone can carry a firearm for protection in the wilderness, it states that certain professionals can
- licensed professional trappers, and
- individuals who need protection from wild animals while working at their lawful occupation, most often in a remote wilderness location
2. You asked a CO if you could carry a firearm in the bush while not hunting. You didn't explicitly state is was for wildlife protection. If you are target shooting that's one thing. If you have your rifle packed with the rest of your belongings, while unloaded that's also different. However if you specifically asked if you're allowed to walk around with a loaded firearm for your protection against wildlife the answer may be different as the statement from the RCMP doesn't state that this is acceptable.
FishFrenzy
Quote:
Originally Posted by FishFrenzy
you missed something in the RCMP statement, trappers and such can carry a restricted firearm
The following individuals, provided they are Canadian residents and have a licence that allows them to possess restricted firearms, may be authorized to carry a handgun, etc.
I had a 25 minute talk with the CO, we talked about every situation, baiting a bait, canoeing, camping, etc, I also said just walking down a trail with a firearm, they said that because of the way the rule states "while small game hunting" and because of this, if you are NOT small game hunting that rule doesn't apply, UNLESS they can prove you are hunting, than you are poaching, that's different.
why doesn't someone else on here call a CO, ask them, but make sure you note that the rule is listed as a small game restriction.
call a CO, they are not just their to charge you, they are also there to assist you in interpreting the regs.
you can look at this how you want, the reg is clearly written. the CO agreed that if they want to say you cant carry a firearm than it would have to be written in the general section NOT in the small games section.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Actually MikePal it because of the ethics lecture, if it come to it, what I would be pointing, and shooting would be a slug. My personal ethics dictate when I shoot I shoot to kill. Its not a case of should I be walking around with slugs. Its more the case I will be walking around with slugs. I have no interest in hunting bear, but I have the greatest respect for their strength and agility, so if I do shoot it will be a case of self-preservation.
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop.
-Gun Nut
Revr called and got an answer. If someone doesn't like it that's up to them. Call and get your own interpretation then. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if one c.o. says one thing and another says something different in interpreting the law. The court will make the final decision should it get to that.
Thanks for posting what you found out revr!!
Okay, revr I'm on my own property, I'm restoring a fence line, I have the necessary tools with me to do the task, because I'm in an area where there bears, I always carry a high power rifle or shotgun and slugs for protection, I sometime have them encased. This would be perfectly okay, because my intention is to do fence restoration not hunting?
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
-Gun Nut
It is still up to the CO and how he interprets it. Yes you can always fight it in court.
But if the CO is in a bad mood you might get a fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redd foxx
Here are some useful opinions from CGN on carrying a firearm in the bush.
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum.../t-418833.html
Including an email/response to/from the MNR.
Asked MNR this back in the spring, maybe this will clear things up a little
Question:
From: *****
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 9:17 PM
To: NRIC - Hunting (MNR); Webmaster (MNR)
Subject: MNR Website Inquiry: Hunting (English)
Below is the result of your feedback form. It was submitted by
(*****) on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 at 21:17:12
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: My family and I are planning a canoe trip with some friends on crown land in the Bancroft area and I would like to know the policy regarding firearms and target shooting. thanks
Response:
Thank you for your enquiry.
Generally speaking, you may target practice on Crown land unless otherwise posted. Crown land use means leaving no trace. You must clean up your empty brass or hulls and targets when you are done. Failing to do so or leaving any material/garbage behind could result in serious fines under the Public Lands Act
You must consider township, municipal, or city by-laws before discharging firearms. Municipalities or cities have a no-discharge of firearms by-law within town limits. Sometimes town limits actually extend further than the town itself. You would have to contact the town or township to ensure that the area you are practicing on is not within a “no discharge” zone.
Another thing to consider is if you plan on practicing on Sundays. If the town or municipality does not allow Sunday gun hunting, then you could not practice on Sundays. Even though you are not "hunting", the by-law prohibiting Sunday gun hunting may be for any discharge of firearms. A list and map of municipalities allowing Sunday gun hunting is available online at http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/en/Business...02_173985.html
It is important to remember that because you would most likely be practicing in an area that is known to be inhabited by wildlife, it could be mistaken that you are hunting. You must keep your firearm unloaded and encased while you walk to the area you are practicing, then set up your targets before you load your firearm and begin practicing. When you are finished, you must unload and encase your firearm again before you take down your targets and walk back out of the area. Even though you are not hunting, if you are walking around an area inhabited by wildlife, it would look as if you are hunting, and you could get charged for hunting out of season.
When target practicing, you must consider what is behind your target should your projectile miss the mark. Use a suitable backstop. Discharging firearms carelessly is an offence. Persons who discharge firearms without due care and attention or consideration for persons and property are liable to a fine of up to $25,000 or imprisonment for up to two years – or both.
For more information contact your local MNR office to where you plan on performing your target practice. A list of MNR offices, and their contact information, is available online at http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/en/ContactU...02_179002.html
I have some concerns about the Sunday gun "hunting" section: it's not the MNR's business and it would also mean that you could not operate a licensed shooting range or a licensed game farm; not so sure about that either.
anyway, it's a good reference regarding the topic on hand
You missed the point of the discussion; what if you were out hunting Grouse, Quail etc, a bear charges and your shot gun is loaded with Birdshot ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
Unless of course you are using slugs to hunt Quail...http://www.oodmag.com/community/imag...lies/smile.png
Quote:
Originally Posted by bushman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Thanks for posting that info Werner...it clarifies what is expected of you when you use the excuse "I was out target Shooting'...Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
So now you left honestly telling a the LEO you were carrying it for 'protection'...and let the chips fall where they may.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Hello again MikePal I should have mention when I grouse hunt I use a SXS double barrel. In a double a slug is just a trigger pull away, and the bear will be close, because double barrels are notorious for handling slugs badly at a distance, at least that has been my experience.
You don't stop hunting because you get old. You get old because you stop hunting.
-Gun Nut
LMAO. :)
Wasn't there a saying when fishing big bait big fish.
So maybe buckshot for big quail and big grouse. Yum 50 pound grouse and quail.:joker:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
exactly, that was how they put it, if you have just reason to require protection eg bears in the area you are good, as long as you are not small game hunting at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
thanks Redd Foxx,Quote:
Originally Posted by redd foxx
no problem, I am not here to argue, I will do what it takes to find out what a local CO thinks about questions I have, where I live there are all kinds of rules, road restrictions, lake access restrictions, etc, and I like to know before it becomes a issue!
This part here seems a little strange to me. In most of southern Ontario it was illegal to possess a firearm other than bow for the "purpose of hunting" on Sunday. That would mean that you could possess a firearm for another purpose on Sunday such as target shooting. The MNRF allowed Sunday hunting in areas where municipalities agreed to that, hence some areas you can and some you can't. Unless there is a municipal by-law that specifically outlaws "Sunday shooting" I think you can still target shoot on Sunday.Quote:
Another thing to consider is if you plan on practicing on Sundays. If the town or municipality does not allow Sunday gun hunting, then you could not practice on Sundays. Even though you are not "hunting", the by-law prohibiting Sunday gun hunting may be for any discharge of firearms. A list and map of municipalities allowing Sunday gun hunting is available online at http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/en/Business...02_173985.html
I would recommend when getting info from MNRF to ask for the name of the person who gave it to you and their contact info, position, etc and get it in writing if possible. Sometimes info is given by clerks, techs, etc that may not be as familiar with the laws as they think. The NRIC is the Natural Resource Information Centre that handle general enquiries. Depending on where they got their info, it may or may not be accurate so it is important to get that contact information or keep a copy of what you got from them to back you up should something negative arise.
BQuote:
ut if theCO is in a bad mood you might get a fine.
Quote:
If you feel you've been hard done by and didn't commit an offence, plead not guilty and ask for a trial.
What I do:
- Always have a current small game license. Not a big deal because I am a hunter.
- Also always buy a bear license every fall. That lets you carry slugs or CF rifle. It also lets you shoot a bear (legally) if you see one.
In practical terms, when are you ever going to run into a CO nowdays, right? Not very often, but the bear license saved me one year - the day before deer rifle season, I went for a drive on some logging roads with my deer rifle (and shot shells for it) looking for grouse. Got stopped at an MNR roadblock on the way out. Even though I showed him the shot shells and gave him my "hunting for grouse excuse", that was not good enough. The bear license got me off the hook.
You were just driving, how can you legally hunt while you are driving. You were transporting your rifle and 410 shotgun shells to your camp to get ready for the up coming hunt. I think this guy was trying to get he pen ready for the season.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
If all you had is a rifle with shot cartridges, it would have been entertaining to see a judge's call on it.
The rifle may have been capable of a muzzle energy of more than 400 ft-lbs, when loaded with the appropriate manufactured ammunition for deer hunting, but the muzzle energy of the shot cartridge I would expect falls way below 400 ft-lbs. Since the way the regulation is currently worded with no mention of the rifles capability. It is the muzzle energy of the ammunition being used in the firearm that defines the use of the firearms, not the caliber of the firearm or its potential muzzle energy. I have advised those in charge of enforcement at the MNRF that the regulation is, flawed for this very reason, and needs to be amended. But they still take the view that the industrial standard is what defines the use of a firearm, and so far have chosen not to add the word 'capable' to the phrase concerning muzzle energy in order to make their understanding of the regulation perfectly clear. Apparently preferring instead, to mentally insert it into the regulation, when they apply it.
You do not stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you so hunting.
- Gun Nut
Sometimes to challenge an offense will cost more then the fine itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redd foxx
a little bit of info. I didn't have time to find the Government papers.
http://www.ontariorealestatesource.c...icles/land.pdf
http://www.thestar.com/business/pers...rs_rights.html
Wrong post Greatwhite :)Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
Crap :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Hi W.R what bothers me about this regulation is what it seems to gloss over. When you read that last statement it leaves you with the impression, that when the archery season for deer kicks in, you no longer have to worry about the firearm restriction on small game hunting. In my particular WMU the grouse season starts on September 19, and the deer archery season starts October 1, so I began to think if I postponed any grouse hunting until after October 1, I wouldn't have to worry about what ammunition I was carrying when small game hunting. However as I read this statement more carefully another thought has struck me. In my WMU the gun season for bear begins September 2 and runs to November 30. So really the small game restriction on firearms holds until the end of November, as well as for the muzzle loading season for deer in the first week of December. Does that sound right to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
-Gun Nut
If bear season runs September 2 and to November 30, the rules are clear there. No slugs or shot larger than #2 in your possession while in the bush unless you have a bear license. The exclusion for deer/bows is if you are in an area where the *only* open big game season is deer/bow-only (i.e. parts of southern ontario where there is a bow deer season, but no bear season) - not the case in your area.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
A simpler thing to do rather than trying to interpret the wording of the regs is to have a look at the MRNF's intent:
a) No walking/driving around the woods with firearms/ammo of any sort if you don't have a small game license and there is something you *could* be legally huting.
b) No walking/driving around the woods with firearms/ammo capable of killing a big game animal when a big game season (gun) is open if you don't have a license.
That's what they are trying to say, but they do a very poor job of putting it into words.
The obvious loophole in their logic is the assumption that no one would poach big game out of season. A bit of a puzzler.
I just spend the 50 bucks and get the bear tag, then I don't have to worry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
Thank you W.R. at least that confirms, what I was seeing when taking a hard second look at that regulation. What is not clear to me is why the gun bear season has to be so infernally long, while the gun deer season only rates a week or three. Thanks again.
You don't stop hunting because you get old. You get old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut
Bear season is long because it can be without hurting the population.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
The Nov 30 end is only to prevent guys from hunting denning bears.
You need a guard dog. she doesn't bark at wild life and gives a low wine when she wants to chase something,but only on my command.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...n/PICT0047.jpg
she drives the bear crazy at first.
I have a question I can't seem to find the answer for and its along the same line as this. I'm bowhunting black bear from a ground blind. May I have my 12 gauge unencased beside me and loaded, or does it have to be encased because I have the bow out?
You can have all the firearms you want at the ready, as long as they are legal to use for the game hunted and seasons open. The only regulation to the contrary is for waterfowl hunting. In other words, yes you can have a loaded shotgun, rifle and bow, when bear hunting.